X with BPD wants to be friends...

[wicati67]

Good morning. So this is my first posting (so please excuse the inaugural rambling). Though eager to hear your insights, I must admit I'm also a little cautious. It seems many here feel it is futile to stay engaged with one most likely with BPD. And yet, I wonder if all these relationships are doomed? Ok. So here's my story... .

All the telltale signs were there early on, love at first sight, welcomed love-bombing. It was the first time I wanted to introduce my kids to a woman I was dating. She was immediately maternal. Our joint custody schedules worked well. But rather early on, her sense of feeling disregarded by my actions became more frequent. I couldn't anticipate ways I'd disappoint her. Gratitude was slowly eroded by resentment. There was a lot of gaslighting (I want to provide examples, but I also want to keep this shorter than "War and Peace". After about two years, came prolonged ghosting. Reaching out to her only to receive terse responses of "sorry. busy. what's up?" This went on for about two months, until I couldn't do it any longer. Broke my heart. I had to end it.

A month later, desperate for reconciliation, she called emailed and texted, pleading to get back together. I was skeptical, but willing to give a second chance. Things were love-bomby for two months then we returned to ghosting and accusations of disregard. After four months, I told her I would not return to her anger and silence; I cut it off again. That was back in January.



I tried dating these past five months, but it was very difficult. Still, I stuck to no contact. Then, last week week, I received a text from her, saying she missed our friendship, how no man had affected her life as I had and there wasn't a day, these past five months, she didn't think of me. I waited a few days to respond. Reflecting and coming to the conclusion that she really is the love of my life and if I couldn't change her behavior, then I'd change my own expectations.

But then our text correspondence took a shift. She said she only wanted to be friends- "I want my best friend back", "our's were the happiest years of my life; not my ex husband (her only other LTR) only you". "You broke my heart and I'm still getting over you". (then why be friends?)  I am confused by this friend-zone invite. Ours was not a friendship, it was an an intimate relationship. What's going on here?

Now, I know the default suggestion is no contact. Run away. Her M.O. is control, not love. But I hate just vilifying. I believe we are all on the spectrum, as narcissists, even borderlines. And she is a lovingly gracious person. She's not a monster, just horribly tweaked by childhood trauma.

So my question to you is: what do I make of these mixed messages? Is this ONLY an invitation to friendship? Yes I know I should live my life and shouldn't wait for her (yes, I'm in therapy). Could she merely be pushing through her internal wars to salvage what she knows is good? Yes, I see her past actions are not owned (I broke her heart, not that she stonewalled, ghosted and split). But must the response alway be- she's a parasite, she's yet to find a new supply? In that sense, is BPD family is a lot like Alcoholics Anonymous (in other words, is there no path via moderation)? Clearly AA is largely successful (as is BPDF) but is it not the only path. Among alcoholics, a there's a new discussion of moderation. Is this possible for people with BPD?

Thank you for reading all this and I look forward to hearing your reflections.

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[purekalm]

Hello wlcatl67,

Though eager to hear your insights, I must admit I'm also a little cautious. It seems many here feel it is futile to stay engaged with one most likely with BPD. And yet, I wonder if all these relationships are doomed?

I feel ya. I think it's wise to take into account that most here are still hurting from all the trauma that their relationships are causing while still loving them and not knowing what to do. Also, after seeing my parent's relationship wherein my dad is undiagnosed BPD, and my own with my husband who is undiagnosed BPD, I wonder as well. It's been an absolutely crazy ride growing up.

Reflecting and coming to the conclusion that she really is the love of my life and if I couldn't change her behavior, then I'd change my own expectations.

For your kid's sake, I would think about this a little harder. My siblings and I were traumatized over and over and as a result have a myriad of issues due to this type of behavior. Please keep in mind that while YOU may be able to accept that things won't always be the way you want them, your children may not. It is very possible that when you commit to her, her moods and attitudes may be worse, and it could bring you down. When you're brought down, that lowers the defense you could normally put up for your kids. I hope you don't think I'm accusing you of anything, just as a child growing up with a udBPD parent and now as a parent where my other half is udBPD, it's not a pleasant situation, for anyone, and the child is the one who suffers the most. Please believe me that I know.   :'(

All the telltale signs were there early on, love at first sight, welcomed love-bombing. It was the first time I wanted to introduce my kids to a woman I was dating. She was immediately maternal. Our joint custody schedules worked well. But rather early on, her sense of feeling disregarded by my actions became more frequent. I couldn't anticipate ways I'd disappoint her. Gratitude was slowly eroded by resentment. There was a lot of gaslighting (I want to provide examples, but I also want to keep this shorter than "War and Peace". After about two years, came prolonged ghosting. Reaching out to her only to receive terse responses of "sorry. busy. what's up?" This went on for about two months, until I couldn't do it any longer. Broke my heart. I had to end it.

A month later, desperate for reconciliation, she called emailed and texted, pleading to get back together. I was skeptical, but willing to give a second chance. Things were love-bomby for two months then we returned to ghosting and accusations of disregard. After four months, I told her I would not return to her anger and silence; I cut it off again. That was back in January.

In your own words, if you look at it closely, you must see the pattern. Are you prepared to spend a life time of this? Or possibly worse behavior? I'm not saying she can't be helped or get better, it's my opinion that she/they as whole can. Only, just like anyone with a problem, they have to truly admit they have one or there will be no help. Did she ever admit during your time together that she may not be all that stable and need some type of help? Not in those words exactly, but some form? Do you think she noticed at all that she was being unreasonable toward you or how her behavior was affecting you?

"You broke my heart and I'm still getting over you". (then why be friends?)  I am confused by this friend-zone invite. Ours was not a friendship, it was an an intimate relationship. What's going on here?

... .She's not a monster, just horribly tweaked by childhood trauma... .So my question to you is: what do I make of these mixed messages? Is this ONLY an invitation to friendship?

Friends is an easy way to keep you in contact should she need to not be alone again at some point. I hate to say it, but it's most likely true. Does she really love you in the best way she can? She probably did, but it's not healthy the way they love, because they don't truly love themselves.

That's how they keep us, because they aren't monsters, no matter what anyone says. They do monstrous things, I have plenty of examples, but it doesn't change your love for them. I love my dad, I love my husband, but I'm tired of being treated they way that I am. I went through my own horrible childhood/teen/adult trauma BECAUSE of someone with udBPD, but I get no sympathy or ask for none. I admit when I have issues that pop up and try to work on them. Undiagnosed or otherwise BPD's usually don't admit it because they can't see it, or the pain is too much to bring it to the surface and deal with it.

Both the people in my life have went through childhood trauma, but I will not EXCUSE their behavior. We have reasons why we do things, and we should work on that, but to excuse someone's behavior is not helping them, it's hurting them. As a simple example, I absolutely HATE it when I have to rely on someone, especially when they say "I've got it", because both BPD's NEVER had it and I suffered for trusting them, no matter how small or large the matter. I have to work that through, to learn to trust or give someone a chance to prove themselves because they are not them. That's just one tiny, not that big of deal example, but I think you know what I mean. 

But must the response alway be- she's a parasite, she's yet to find a new supply?

I don't think so. I think categorizing them this way is dehumanizing, and is usually done in anger. I can certainly see calling either of them one in my deep hurt and anger over their lack of or actions against me. I believe that they are deeply hurting people in need of some deep work on themselves and their pain so that they can begin to heal, like all the rest of us need to.

They cling to other people in my opinion, because they hate to be alone, are afraid of it even. When they find something good and start to get close they sabotage it, because being close to someone opens up the darkest parts of yourself to vulnerability and they aren't ready for that. They secretly despise themselves for doing this, but continue, shoving and stuffing the pain because they just can't handle it, are afraid to or have stuffed it so deep they don't even really, honestly believe they have done anything wrong and their version of what they can handle isn't what you know to be the truth.

But, WE can't do that work for them. We just can't. They have to admit they need help, seek it out, and do it on their own. We can encourage and support, but ultimately it is their job. It took me a long time to get to this point, with a lot of pain and a lot of tears, anger, disappointment etc. WE are not their saviors, and should stop trying.

If at all possible, take a step back, try to take yourself away and look at the whole picture. See yourself and her and your kids and the whole situation from new eyes, take it all in, take your time. What do you see? Try to be objective as possible, I know it's hard.

I hope that I haven't offended you, and I'm sorry if I have. This is just my opinion and my experience, so take what you will. And, I almost always write too much, so don't be afraid to do so yourself!

 wlcatl67

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[wicati67]

Dear PureKalm,

Offended? Please, I am stunned at the degree of depth and consideration you gave to something I posted an hour ago. Thank you.

You give me a lot to process, a lot I inherently know but cannot reconcile. Maybe I am seeing this through a lense of hope and merely looking for permission to stay on the Crazy Train. But your experience and wisdom suggests that's a fool's choice. I like and believe your account of the BPD's need for a friends zone- it serves a purpose... .and its not mine. Its a false hope that friend-zone is a cautious attempt to "reignite the fire" (btw, have you visited that site? holy cow- what is wrong with that guy?) And, yes, I must concede she is not owning up to her contributions to the relationship's failure, which does not bode well for our possible future. Clearly, her past is far too dark for her to address.

With regard to my kids, mine are older than hers, more autonomous, so I am not terribly concerned. The extent of BPD affecting my kids was minimal- she never really accepted my youngests' autism (blamed my x for bad parenting). Otherwise, I think they were relieved that Dad finally found love... .and they liked her. She runs a fun, creative and athletic house (again, she's not a monster).

Regarding the vilification- you're right, there is indeed a lot of hurt, in many forms on this site. Our hurt is unique but also connecting... .still its a cold comfort, right? I completely understand your "I've got it" response. Utterly appropriate considering the environment you endured. But the fact you see it as a trigger is so key to your progress... and you will keep progressing. Sadly, they will not.

Seems like we diminish expectations and they only lower the bar further... .Monsters! (kidding).

Again, thank you!

[purekalm]

Good morning wicati67,

First, I'm sorry for botching your name in my first response! My eyes were a little blurry and I could've sworn they were l's and not i's. 

Its a false hope that friend-zone is a cautious attempt to "reignite the fire"

It's hard, I know. Even though I'm married to mine, I always hope that one of his rare good moods will last and it will all work out ok. And then, he gets angry too quickly with my son, just for wanting to spend time with him and I'm reminded that I can't hope for more than he is, just accept they way he is and do something about it. It's so difficult though, because we love them, make excuses for them and can truly see their pain. I think feeling helpless to do something about that helps us to stay in a bad situation, so we can do something, which ultimately leads to our and their downfall since they don't need someone trying to fix them and we can't fix them. It's so hard to be in that spot.

With regard to my kids, mine are older than hers, more autonomous, so I am not terribly concerned. The extent of BPD affecting my kids was minimal- she never really accepted my youngests' autism (blamed my x for bad parenting). Otherwise, I think they were relieved that Dad finally found love... .and they liked her. She runs a fun, creative and athletic house (again, she's not a monster).

That's good at least, because the mood swings can do a  ton of damage alone. That's sweet they were happy for you. I only wish it could've been different for you as I'm sure the heartache is much worse having to let go of an unhealthy person when even your children enjoyed having her around. I agree, not monsters, just broken and unable to have a healthy relationship because of it. They are great people, buried under a lot of pain and torment.

My son also has autism, (I have one child) and my udBPD husband still hasn't been able to accept that he has it. He blames himself in some ways for 'failing' that he's not normal.

Our hurt is unique but also connecting... .still its a cold comfort, right?

Yes, a lot of times it is a pretty cold comfort, because what you want more than anything is for it to just work out and be able to deal with the behavior. It's nice to know other people understand, but what would be even nicer is if you could have the comfort of your partner, getting to know and love them more and more as you grow together. Everybody has issues, just some are not something we can live with. It becomes a constant struggle with them. I've often told my husband that I feel like I have a surly unruly teenager instead of a husband for the way he acts the majority of the time. It's frustrating, because I need a mature adult, not a child, I have a child. I pray one day he truly admits he needs help, but I don't know if it will happen.  :'(

Seems like we diminish expectations and they only lower the bar further... .Monsters! (kidding).

I know you're kidding.    It is the truth though. I noticed it early on. What I wouldn't have put up with from anybody, I put up with for him. (husband) I won't tolerate my son yelling at me, so why let my husband who is mean as well? I try to explain lying to my son, yet my husband has learned to bold face lie to me, and there's little recourse besides my attitude when I catch him. I don't think that normal expectations should be lowered for them, only if we know it's something we've got too high of one for.

You're welcome! Please keep posting and asking questions if you'd like. I've been here for a while now all over the boards and pretty much everyone is great here, understanding and accepting. A more welcome environment than what I'm used to.

Oh, also, if you look to the right of the board there is  helpful articles to understanding BPD and how it affects you and what you can do about it. Also, even though you seem to have a pretty good handle on boundaries, it never hurts to learn more. If you can get your hands on a book titled Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, it helps quite a bit. I originally borrowed it from my local library but I own it now and I still take it out and reread it when my boundaries start to blur.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[C.Stein]

Hello wicati67,

 

Confusion seems to be the natural state you find yourself in with these types of relationships.  I can understand the pure frustration from giving chance after chance only to end up with the same result every time.  A friendship will likely be as difficult as the relationship was.  It all depends on what you would be looking for and expecting from her in this regard.

It is hard to say what her motivations are for this request.  What would your motivations be for reengaging in a friendship capacity?

I am confused by this friend-zone invite. Ours was not a friendship, it was an an intimate relationship. What's going on here?

I have only one question here.  Why? (see bold)

[wicati67]

Good morning PureKalm,

What an interesting coincidence that your son has autism. What is not a coincidence is that youyour husband doesn't accept that diagnosis. Like my friend/girlfriend, she doesn't want to accept the diagnosis. I think you and I understand why that is: if they are too accept that peoples brains functioning differently, through extensive medication and therapy things could get better, and then the same could be said for them... .and that's terribly scary for someone with BPD. My girlfriend/friend suffers from insomnia. Yesterday I sent her a YouTube video from The school of life about that topic. Fundamentally, the video explains how insomnia is very much a message from our subconscious to our conscious mind. Telling us to take a look at things we push it away from awareness. I didn't expect her to recognize how she suppresses a lot of childhood trauma and that's what may be keeping her awake every night. Sure enough, she replied that her children's busy schedule is what keeps her up at night. How she has no support. (ex is a dead beat she supports).The franticness is a symptom not the cause. See how she doesn't address the subconscious but the conscious daily routine. Classic gaslighting.

Has there ever been a point in your life where you realized you couldn't endure this behavior? Leave your marriage? In other words, is your husband high functioning? What is that threshold? If he acts like a teenager the majority of the time, It doesn't sound like he's very high functioning. Do you stay with him because you love him, because you are intricately entwined with him or combination of both?

And yes I will take a look at those books you suggest. Thank you, wicati

[wicati67]

Good morning C Stein,

Thank you for your post. Yes I have no idea what her motivations are. She tells me she has no plans to be in a relationship for some time. And she's only been in a handful of relationships in her life. Naturally, in this case, she's cautious. What confuses me is the idea of friendship after having been intimate. I know some would say she simply needs to maintain supply, but it seems so odd to maintain the support component of the relationship without the intimacy. If that's even possible. But of course this is the reality within the rabbit hole.

What I meant to say when I stated that ours was not a friendship was-we didn't start off as friends. It was a very intense romantic relationship. Yes a lot of our time together was spent finding activities for the kids, sharing and doing fun things friends would do, but the majority our time together was simply very romantic. Extracting the friendship from what we had is like extracting the tires off a Rolls-Royce. Yes it's a component of the car but hardly the car itself (I know, dreadful analogy). It just doesn't make any sense and because she's come back to me before, I have to suspect there's an ulterior motive. I don't see us being friends and I suspect she doesn't either, but as I mentioned earlier, she's very cautious.

Fundamentally, I do want to be in relationship. But having three kids, finding someone who will understand the demands of these kids (one with autism) and who I'm attracted to, has not been easy. She's beautiful and fun and our lives sync up rather nicely. I'm still on dating websites but my lack of interest and the lack of compatibility only sends me back to the devil I know. This was the case even when I was in no contact. earlier this year.

Again, thank you for reaching out, wicati

[C.Stein]

Fundamentally, I do want to be in relationship.

A relationship with her?

[wicati67]

I want to be in a relationship. I would prefer her because I do love her but also know that she is emotionally unwell. So when I ended it back in January, I went to match, dated a lot and became only increasingly frustrated by the difficulty in finding a connection. Last week, she reached out to me , ostensibly to be friends, at a point where I wasn't feeling particularly hopeful about finding a new relationship. I miss our connection more than I abhor the gaslighting stonewalling devaluing and discarding. I know. I know. It doesn't sound particularly centered of me but that's why I chose to post in this forum.

I'm hopeful to restablish what I fear is a doomed relationship, unless I can lower my expectations significantly when the splitting returns.

[C.Stein]

I want to be in a relationship. I would prefer her because I do love her but also know that she is emotionally unwell. So when I ended it back in January, I went to match, dated a lot and became only increasingly frustrated by the difficulty in finding a connection. Last week, she reached out to me , ostensibly to be friends, at a point where I wasn't feeling particularly hopeful about finding a new relationship. I miss our connection more than I abhor the gaslighting stonewalling devaluing and discarding. I know. I know. It doesn't sound particularly centered of me but that's why I chose to post in this forum.

I'm hopeful to restablish what I fear is a doomed relationship, unless I can lower my expectations significantly when the splitting returns.

Perhaps she is experiencing the same and that is why she reached out (see bold).

So what do you think you can do different to make the relationship work?  Obviously business as usual ain't gonna "git it dun".   

What expectations would you have of her were you to reconcile?

[wicati67]

Hi C Stein,

Perhaps she is also experiencing the same sense of loss (aka not finding a new supply); who knows? Ultimately I shouldn't be venturing into her head, trying to figure out what she is thinking. I wish I had a greater sense of centeredness, to not be entwined. To live my life as if she were in Narnia.

As far as reconciling, I don't even know if she wants to. Maybe she just doesn't want to let go. I did tell her when we reconnected, it would be hard to be friends with someone who I love so deeply, whom I am attracted to. She said she only wants to be friends but was also still trying to get over having her heart broken by the man she thought about every day. As the song goes- "was our love too strong to die, or were we just to weak to kill it?"

I cannot even think if there is new path and new expectations, not until I even know for certain what she wants from this. Until then, I treat it as a friendship and temper my expectations of that.

Thank you!

[C.Stein]

Ultimately I shouldn't be venturing into her head, trying to figure out what she is thinking.

I agree.  Even the best educated guess is still a guess.  

As far as reconciling, I don't even know if she wants to. Maybe she just doesn't want to let go. I did tell her when we reconnected, it would be hard to be friends with someone who I love so deeply, whom I am attracted to.

I completely understand this.  It is more than a little difficult, if not impossible, to reverse steps already taken.  

I cannot even think if there is new path and new expectations, not until I even know for certain what she wants from this. Until then, I treat it as a friendship and temper my expectations of that.

IMO this is the best you can do.  Allow the stone to be turned over but without any expectations.  Keep yourself grounded in reality and you will be prepared for whatever comes from this.  :)on't walk onto a limb that won't support your weight ... .the fall will hurt bad if it breaks.  

[purekalm]

Hey wicati67,

Has there ever been a point in your life where you realized you couldn't endure this behavior? Leave your marriage? In other words, is your husband high functioning? What is that threshold? If he acts like a teenager the majority of the time, It doesn't sound like he's very high functioning. Do you stay with him because you love him, because you are intricately entwined with him or combination of both?

Yes, multiple times. No, he's actually worse now than he was before, becoming extremely lazy and uncaring of how that is affecting everything.

I've stayed with him because I love him, more often than not, the ONLY reason I've had to stay. We've been married for seven years and it's been pure hell. There are those rare times things go ok, but they are rare. I have fought him every step of the way over his behaviors and how they aren't normal and trying to find a way to respect him at the same time.

I finally kicked him out for a little over a month a couple years ago, and immediately he was talking to this woman he met at work and was trying to date her while telling me that he loved me and wanted to make it work. I found out by reading his fb messages that he sent to her, he forgot I'm the one he had set up all his accounts for everything. It obviously hurts me more than him, yet he gets ticked if I bring it up... .I felt guilty that I made the wrong choice, or maybe in anger, and so I let him come back. I was miserable, and so was my son.

The second time was recently. He had a decent job finally, been working hard. He hadn't seen his family for seven years from another state so I encouraged him to go see them with some of our tax refund. I booked him the flight, helped him get his stuff together, he talked to his boss and he gave him one week unpaid leave to do it and he was terrified of flying so I tex and called him before and after checking on him. Then on our seven year anniversary, (which he booked his trip during it saying there was nothing special happening on those days so it was ok, completely forgetting about it) he started texting me all depressed and then called me and basically said that he wanted to separate and his sister said he could stay there as long as he needed. So, before he even brought it up to me, he was talking to his sister about not wanting to come back. To this day, he still won't tell me what his reasons were.

He partied on the beach with his sister and husband for her husband's birthday and had all kinds of fun doing stuff with them. He hardly ever contacted my son unless I reminded him and even then he hardly paid attention to him to the point my son didn't even want to talk to him after the first few tries because autism or not, he isn't stupid. Then halfway through the month he flipped his script again and said he'll change, please let him back. He'll come home and get a job and do what he always needed to do for us. He realizes now that I was right and so much other garbage. Well, I idiotically gave him one last chance... .and I've regretted it.

He came back with a worse attitude than before, has done nothing but sit around and play games until he lost his xboxlive and then he was more surly and grumpy than before. He got a couple side jobs and sold his tool box, spending almost $40 on himself to reinstate his live. I told him that in no uncertain terms if he stayed on that system all day and night again that I was done for real this time, I can't take it anymore. He gave his word, and then broke it right away. I told him just two days ago now that we have to separate, he needs to get a job to take care of his son, and he got mad, acted like I didn't say anything and didn't get off the system at all yesterday. So, now it's my task to have another unpleasant conversation with him today about a job. We're literally scraping by right now and any slight little thing can sink us.

There is a ton in between all that, but that's the bare bones. I'm exhausted. I love him, but he's not doing his part, and he's making things harder than they have to be in the mean time. It's like a paddle boat. We both have an oar, he chucked his in the water or is hiding it. I'm paddling the best I can myself, but we're not going to get anywhere like that. He's chosen time and again to NOT pick up his part, and after seven years of trying, wishing, hoping and praying, I just don't want to do it anymore.

I'm sorry my example isn't going to give you hope. Sometimes I think we have plenty of that, and not enough doses of reality to stop us from making mistakes. If it were anyone else, I would never have put up with what he's done. But, I said forever and I meant it. Now, we at least have to be apart, because I refuse to live this way. I'd rather be alone for the rest of my life than deal with what I have any longer.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[wicati67]

Wow, so this is still very raw and fresh to you. The way you wrote you seemed to suggest to have such a strong grasp of the symptoms of BPD and you had come to a better more centered place regarding your significant other. I suppose that is the insidiousness of dealing with these people: we know better butt hole and love trump logic.

Like me, you see the writing on the wall, it will not get better. For me, currently, I am in the returned honeymoon phase. Although it is under the veil of friendship, I have to assume that this relationship was built on a more intimate foundation and we will most likely return to it because she nice that affirmation. Ranch and that will be enough for her. If that does happen, and we return to it, I know that I will return to the ghosting stonewalling and splitting. And yet here I am hoping you're returned to it all.

But you are merely a few steps ahead of me. You're in the midst of it and I don't hear much hope in your tone. I don't see any silver lining in his behavior. So the question is- what is your threshold? When do you need to say enough is enough?

[purekalm]

Hey wicati67,

Sorry so long in response!

Wow, so this is still very raw and fresh to you. The way you wrote you seemed to suggest to have such a strong grasp of the symptoms of BPD and you had come to a better more centered place regarding your significant other. I suppose that is the insidiousness of dealing with these people: we know better butt hole and love trump logic.

Not exactly fresh and raw, considering I've been through so much we hardly have a relationship, well, we really don't have one right now. It's not as painful as before, and the last time, when he called on our anniversary to leave me, I pretty much let go of everything. That last little bit of chance he had left he broke himself. We can't split right now because of financial difficulties, but it will happen when we can. I can't live this way, I'm so tired of being strung back and forth for so long. I wouldn't give anyone else the chance, so I just can't do it for him any longer. I love him, yes I do, but he doesn't return the favor, and I'm done waiting and enduring at the moment.

But you are merely a few steps ahead of me. You're in the midst of it and I don't hear much hope in your tone. I don't see any silver lining in his behavior. So the question is- what is your threshold? When do you need to say enough is enough?

Well, because they AREN'T monsters, you have to be very clear with YOURSELF what your threshold is. They do have a good side, good qualities, great connection when they're willing, but then there's all the stuff that long term, can you deal with it?

For me, my reality with him on the other side is too much to bear. I can't trust him because he lies straight to my face, even about the simplest things. Without trust, what relationship can you have? He blames me for everything under the guise of blaming himself. He won't control his anger and lashes out at me cruelly whenever he feels like it. He won't admit he needs help. He treats our son like a burden and gets frustrated every time he wants his attention or help, besides still not accepting that he's different and you have to treat him different because of his autism. There's so much more that could just about fill a book, and I don't want to do it anymore.

Since I've told him he's gone back and forth from being angry to acting like nothing's wrong and that's where I would always falter before. His good side, the side I love more than anything and wish he would try harder to be more often, is only fleeting and what lies underneath is still a wounded man who has yet to admit he's been hurt and accept help and healing. It's not that I don't accept and love him for all of him, that'd be shallow, it's just impossible to be treated the way he's treated me for so long and not yearn for freedom, for peace, for some kind of security financially because he's so horrible with money. I mean, I've loved him all this time, all through everything, and he still doesn't show any real concern or care for me or our son the majority of the time. It's not fair.

Just one incident is when I contracted MRSA last March from a spider bite and it was so bad that I ended up in the hospital for five days and had to have surgery. He promised before they admitted me that if they did he would be right there with me all the way, no matter what. I was so worried that I actually believed him. Not twenty minutes after I got admitted and called my  mom to tell her, while I was on the phone he was complaining under his breath how it was a waste of time and gas to go back and forth to see me and all that. When I got off the phone I told him that he should just go home and the next time he was up this way to bring my stuff if he could. He made some lame excuse about having to watch our son, which he NEVER does, because he can't. He played games, because he cares more about his clan mates than he does me. At the time, the last resort antibiotic wasn't working and I was quarantined and it was awful to deal with all by myself, but he left me no choice, and he's always done things like that, yet I stayed because I love him.

It hasn't gotten better and he hasn't hardly changed at all in the last seven years, just lazy and depressed at the moment. I wish I had encouraging words, but this is all I know. 

My only hope for you is that you take in the whole picture and don't idolize her like she's the only woman out there that can fulfill you the way you've felt with her. You know full well what will happen, it's happened every time and there's no reason, unless she's gotten help, that anything will change. Take off the rose colored glasses and see her for who she really is, accepting every part, and then decide if you can take ALL of it, possibly forever like you wanted. It's hard to not be overly positive or negative with them, but it is possible to just see them the way they are. I hope all turns out well for you one way or the other wicati67. 

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[wicati67]

Good morning PureKalm,

I am sure anyone reading your last post would be confused by the situation you choose to put yourself in contrast to the remarkable clarity of your wisdom. But I suppose that is the struggle we all face in dealing with these people. We are not naïve buffoons and they are not hideous monsters. We are optimists who choose to see the best in people and they are merely emotionally unwell.

I'm sure as you write your response, you think to yourself- this is something I must extricate myself from. It's probably the reason why you are so adamant about me extricating from my own situation. And yet, I can tell you my situation is not even remotely as dire as yours. My significant other can be remarkably selfless and loving and giving, but then she can be cruel and withholding. Unfortunately, I am in the face of love bombing. It's as if it was the first day of spring. So to come to the conclusion that I've entered into the rabbit hole is a little difficult to take right now as the first step  is a little kaleidoscopic. I know very well, as do you, that it doesn't get darker... .until later.

But if I may address the different topic (and maybe this belongs on a separate posting): I am in therapy and I did discuss with my therapist getting back together with my BPD (or rather- being friends). Now, I don't want to say that my therapist is a nihilist, but she kind of takes the perspective of balancing the good with the bad and seeing what one is willing to tolerate. She also feels that I analyze things too much. Paralysis by analysis. When we went through the criteria in the DSM five I can honestly say that we didn't check off too many boxes. She said she would not be able to diagnose her as borderline. And yet the books I've read and the sites I've visited only suggest BPD as she ghosts splits idealizing devalues. But no she's not suicidal she doesn't do impulsive things, she doesn't make desperate attempts to avoid abandonment, no real identity disturbance. But she does often feel disregarded by me. But not now. That'll come later.

So I guess my question for you is: do you know that your BPD is in fact BPD? Could he simply be emotionally unstable? Aren't we all? Aren't we all be in relationships with someone who struggles? What is the threshold of we're willing to tolerate? What is yours?

Thank you,

[purekalm]

Morning wicati67,

I am sure anyone reading your last post would be confused by the situation you choose to put yourself in contrast to the remarkable clarity of your wisdom. But I suppose that is the struggle we all face in dealing with these people. We are not naïve buffoons and they are not hideous monsters. We are optimists who choose to see the best in people and they are merely emotionally unwell.

You put it so eloquently Mr. wicati67. If you add to it my own trauma and basic indoctrination on how to deal with people like him because of my dad, it'd probably make more sense. I was told to let things go, to put up with it because there would be no recourse for his actions. He did what he wanted when he wanted and expected everyone to still love him, and now in his older age wrought with all the destruction he's done to his own body, believes an entirely different life happened for us all and he was such a great parent and husband... .nowhere near the truth. In short, I was helpless and had no say and that's just the way it was. My mother was the more physical abuser because she was stuck with us and when her depression hit hard early on it got worse. So, no excuses, just reasons.

I'm sure as you write your response, you think to yourself- this is something I must extricate myself from. It's probably the reason why you are so adamant about me extricating from my own situation. And yet, I can tell you my situation is not even remotely as dire as yours. My significant other can be remarkably selfless and loving and giving, but then she can be cruel and withholding. Unfortunately, I am in the face of love bombing. It's as if it was the first day of spring. So to come to the conclusion that I've entered into the rabbit hole is a little difficult to take right now as the first step  is a little kaleidoscopic. I know very well, as do you, that it doesn't get darker... .until later.

When I first met him years ago he was extremely nice, shy even with me. I thought, if we're in love, why wait to get married? I had no tools, I didn't realize the importance of time and what it shows you about someone. I was naive to believe that only my dad was like that, but not everyone. The closer I got to him, the worse he got. The longer we've been together the more he's pulled away and treated me like a fish. He gets his nice side out and puts out his line, reels me in and plays for a while and then throws me back in if I get too close or anger or bore him. It's the same scenario over and over. When you love someone, you don't just give up because it's hard, so I stayed.

He, too, can be selfless, loving, giving and authentic, but it's only a part of who he is. I am more of a caution/warning sign if anything. I don't presume to tell you what to do, only to tell you my experience in hopes that you would try to look past the 'love bombing' and accept what you would deal with should you and her choose to resume your relationship as more than friends.

When we went through the criteria in the DSM five I can honestly say that we didn't check off too many boxes. She said she would not be able to diagnose her as borderline. And yet the books I've read and the sites I've visited only suggest BPD as she ghosts splits idealizing devalues. But no she's not suicidal she doesn't do impulsive things, she doesn't make desperate attempts to avoid abandonment, no real identity disturbance. But she does often feel disregarded by me. But not now. That'll come later.

I think they all function to varying degrees and that it would be difficult to diagnose her from afar, because there are a lot of things about her you probably don't know. They can hide the darker parts of themselves quite well. It's perfectly possible her issues are not as deep or troubling, and yet, only she knows the truth to that. It seems like, because you want so much for this to work that you are leaning more towards the side of trying to concretely say she doesn't have it, because if she does, it's an extremely difficult decision for you to make. No matter what you read or who you talk to, ultimately, the decision will be yours. As I said, I'm merely a caution sign, a yellow signal, slow down and think it through. 

So I guess my question for you is: do you know that your BPD is in fact BPD? Could he simply be emotionally unstable? Aren't we all? Aren't we all be in relationships with someone who struggles? What is the threshold of we're willing to tolerate? What is yours?

No I don't know that for sure because he sabotages his chances of getting real help from a therapist and literally does not stop talking about random things. He keeps it all on the surface, he can't handle what he's done. My dad, he doesn't even remember, he's buried it deep.

Yes, I think we are all a little unstable because no one has had a perfect upbringing. You have to be careful with excuses and reasons though. I've suffered and so has my husband, but I've been working on myself for years. My husband has used his past to excuse his behavior, refusing to change, afraid of change, afraid of who he might be because he's been the same for as long as he can remember. When both people are willing after a time to admit fault and be able to reconcile and heal, sure, that's normal troubles that comes with any relationship. If I/you are the only one's admitting where we went wrong and the other party takes no blame, accepts no fault, I/you will always be the one at fault. Saving, fixing, rescuing, forgiving and getting none of that in return, or in bite sized amounts enough to keep you along, and I don't believe they even realize they are doing it half the time.

Well, I'm obviously willing to tolerate more than he is. He's told me before that he would've left me if the shoe had been on the other foot and other such cruel statements. It's hard for me, because I only wanted the natural return and care of the love I was giving to him. Unfortunately, it was only for short periods, always with his own agenda disguised as love for me. My heart has been shattered so many times, I've been so broken,  because this person that chose me, didn't act in any way liked they truly loved me. That's all I wanted, acceptance, love, respect, trust, and he promised me that, and didn't keep a word of it. I want our marriage, our relationship to work more than anyone, but I'm done doing all the work. I have to fight myself to keep from giving in, because of my love for him. It's insane, frustrating. I guess, I thought he would love and accept me like no one had before, because he chose me. I wasn't a mistake, he wasn't forced, and yet, that's the way I've been treated. I don't wish it on anyone.

My threshold? Sometimes I wonder if I have one, because I've caved every time and let him back in. Now though, with all the healing I've done, and seeing my son grow and do better the better I do, I can't see myself being his fish anymore. He's already tried to fish me back out, acting like I didn't ask for a separation and wanting to watch a movie at home with me (which he fell asleep) or trying to half help me here and there, but there's no real commitment in any of it. He just wants to be in my good graces for whatever he needs me for again, and the sad part is, I can really and truly see it now like I never could before. I have to let him be broken without me and figure it out on his own. I'll help him if he asks, but I'm keeping my distance so I don't let myself be fooled again. It's painful, it's tough, and it's my reality and I blame myself for choosing him.

What is your threshold? What are willing to tolerate? What can you handle mentally long term?

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[schwing]

Hi wicati67

But if I may address the different topic (and maybe this belongs on a separate posting): I am in therapy and I did discuss with my therapist getting back together with my BPD (or rather- being friends). Now, I don't want to say that my therapist is a nihilist, but she kind of takes the perspective of balancing the good with the bad and seeing what one is willing to tolerate. She also feels that I analyze things too much. Paralysis by analysis. When we went through the criteria in the DSM five I can honestly say that we didn't check off too many boxes.

Here's how I would compare your account of your ex with the diagnostic qualities for BPD (in the DSM-V)

"1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment"  ... .I imagine this is what happens after the "love-bombing" period.  As I see if, she gets really close to you (and your family) and then as her disordered fear of abandonment kicks in, she becomes distant.  She "abandons" you and your family before you and your family can "abandon" her.  This is how she *avoids* abandonment.

"2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation."  You're familiar with the "idealization" part, the "love-boming" period.  You're probably not aware of the devaluation part because when she's doing it, you're not around.  Another opportunity to observe this would be to listen to how she describes her other close relationships -- sometimes very close, sometimes very distant... .sometimes loves them, sometimes forgets they exist (or hates them).

"3. Identity disturbance" You wouldn't see this unless you are around them more consistently, not just when she wants to be with you.  You would only see this when you are around while other people who are close to them are also around.  But if she keeps you isolated from her other close loved ones (does she have any?), then this might be a indication that she's hiding this aspect from you.

"4. Impulsivity"  Again, not going to happen during the love-bombing.  Basically you would have to know how she behaves when she is feeling not so good.  If you're not around when she is not feel great, then you cannot witness her behaviors.

"5. Recurrent suicidal behaviors... ."  Same deal as #4

"6. Affect instability due to a marked reactivity of mood... ."  The alternation between love-bombing and other seems to fit this bill.

"7. Chronic feelings of emptiness... ."  Same as #4

"8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficult controlling anger... ." #4?

"9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or *severe dissociative symptoms*"  This is kind of pulling at the threads but when she "remembers" the friendship she has had with you (which according to you doesn't really describe your relationship), this might be a example of her "dissociating" -- she is remembering her relationship with you based on qualities of what?  her relationship with someone else?  I don't think she is "making it up";  I think she is dissociating or disconnecting these memories from somewhere else.

She said she would not be able to diagnose her as borderline. And yet the books I've read and the sites I've visited only suggest BPD as she ghosts splits idealizing devalues. But no she's not suicidal she doesn't do impulsive things, she doesn't make desperate attempts to avoid abandonment, no real identity disturbance. But she does often feel disregarded by me. But not now. That'll come later.

Your therapist isn't with you to diagnosis your ex.   Your therapist is there to help you figure out you.  And so long as there's a draw for you to be with this woman, there might be a value in exploring it -- perhaps.

Unfortunately, I am in the face of love bombing. It's as if it was the first day of spring. So to come to the conclusion that I've entered into the rabbit hole is a little difficult to take right now as the first step  is a little kaleidoscopic. I know very well, as do you, that it doesn't get darker... .until later.

The love-bombing phase can tell you quite a lot about yourself.  I would argue that in that phase, your gf (if she has BPD) is showing you what she intuitively believes you want or need for yourself.  And in my experience, people with BPD (pwBPD) can be very adept at understanding other people psyche (while they are blind to their own). [/quote]
There is a reason why in the story of Odysseus, when he came across the mythological sirens (who would sing songs that would drive sailors mad with desire) he ordered that his crew plug up their ears with wax so they would not hear the siren song.  But he had himself tied to the mast and ordered his men not to free him until they were past the island of the sirens.  And there is a reason why pwBPD are sometimes compared to sirens.

So I guess my question for you is: do you know that your BPD is in fact BPD? Could he simply be emotionally unstable? Aren't we all? Aren't we all be in relationships with someone who struggles? What is the threshold of we're willing to tolerate? What is yours?

People with BPD are people.  They have issues that other people have.  But I would argue they have some *more so* and they have other issues that they are desperate to hide from other people, especially themselves.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[wicati67]

Schwing,

Thank you so much for your considerable and considerate response. You clearly have spent a great deal of time looking at the criteria to meet the definition of borderline and seemingly know how it can apply beyond a literal interpretation.

Responding to your breakdown:

the first quality, regarding efforts to avoid abandonment: I think even many healthy people have one foot out the door as they wait for the other shoe to drop. It's only natural self protection, to fear abandonment when putting one's self out there. But to what degree is self protection considered a frantic effort to avoid real or imagined abandonment?

As for the second quality again, everyone love bombs to an extent. Subtract the diagnosis and it's simply called courtship. I certainly thought she was the bees knees I first met her and love bombed her in return. When frustrations set in, couldn't devaluation just be relabelled "relationship issues"? The cliché that we always "hurt the ones we love" was not written only to apply for those with borderline. We all do it.

To the third quality. You're right; I wouldn't know ultimately unless I was around more consistently. But from my perspective and exposure, I didn't sense an identity disturbance (which then discounts qualities five seven and eight). But I think I'm a relatively astute observer of people, I would've eventually have seen the consequences of impulsivity or the residue of suicidal behavior.

In other words, I wonder if when we are hurt by another we are quick to label, diagnose, find connections to the DSM5. Humans tend to look for patterns and connections.

Don't get me wrong. As I hear other peoples' stories, I most certainly hear tales of those who struggle significantly with fear of abandonment, thoughts of suicide, identity disturbance and in doing so significantly hurt their significant others. But sometimes people are simply hurt. The woman I love, who has hurt me and devalued me, is by no means a perfectly  emotionally healthy person, but again I simply do not see or do not have convincing evidence that can defined her as borderline. Not sure where that leaves me. What's in a label or diagnosis?

Lastly, I just want to make sure you understand: I'm not being dismissive of your insights. It's just that the human psyche is so much more significant than a label or meeting criteria and I'm just trying to understand her behavior and the diagnosis of BPD... .and I do not see it. I do not see her as having "more issues" than others, like the other stories I've read on this site. A few months back, my son was diagnosed with autism. It was relief because gave us an idea of what we were dealing with, a flight path and a connection to an emphatic community. But I dont see clear BPD with my SO. I could use the label. Again, thank you for your time.