Been at it for so long - I

[BestVersionOfMe]

Ok so I have an un-diagnosed wife that shows all the symptoms of BPD.  I've read 7 books on the subject and have an hourly calls with my life coach/therapist, most of which revolve around trying to improve my relationship with my wife.  I know a lot of people are adamantly opposed to remaining in a relationship for the kids, but I've weighed my options and have seen the other sign with other close friends that went through my exact scenario and I am confident that my choice to remain in the relationship and seeing my three kids seven days a week is far better than the alternative.  It just isn't worth it to me to go through a high conflict divorce, a custody battle, and go broke during the process. 

With all of that being said, I am at a crossroads and heading a new direction in the relationship.  I've already come to the conclusion that for the time being trying to improve the romantic relationship is a waste of time.  I'm not going to pursue her or sex anymore, it just leads to co-dependent behavior and makes everything worse.  I can live without sex, I'm not gonna die or anything and historically I've placed so much importance on this one thing.  My main issue has to do with setting healthy boundaries consistently.  When I think of this subject I feel a lot of anxiety and all of the nasty and vicious texts from her when I attempt to do so.  Despite my many fears I am moving forward with it anyways and it started this morning.  My wife has had a long habit of setting daily alarms early in the morning so that she can get up and exercise or be productive or whatever her reasoning.  I think she has good intentions about it, but what ends up happening is that she hits the snooze button repeatedly which wakes me up over and over even though she rarely if ever gets up herself.  I've brought this up many times in the past but she hasn't respected my requests.  This morning I was dedicated to telling her that doing that effects me and is disrespectful and that I don't like it and to please stop.  So I let her know that verbally, and then she waited till I left and sent me a snarky text.  I replied "Stop with your rude texts, all I want is for you not to set an alarm that you are not gonna use because it effects my sleep and that I need and deserve sleep."  She fired back, "I will not be adjusting my alarm."  So I picked up the phone and called her but she didn't answer, so I left a voicemail reconfirming my request in a nice pleasant tone.  I even said, If you insist on doing that please sleep in another room."  She sent a text back, "I will not be moving rooms."

So my goal here is learn more about what might happen over time if I continue to push back and set boundaries with someone who historically I've allowed to not respect my boundaries, as well as to make sure that my boundaries are in fact healthy in terms of the request as well as how I phrase it.  I also want to hear from others that began to enforce boundaries and how that changed their relationship with their BPD loved one.  I'm exhausted I'm tired of the roller coaster and I feel like I understand her better than she does herself, but I really need to get this boundary setting thing down pat because in the past I have just not done it consistently because I didn't want to deal with the sh*t storm that usually follows. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wrongturn1]

BVOM:  Good for you, congrats on standing up for yourself on the alarm thing.   

In my relationship with my uBPDw, I started implementing boundaries and validation at the same time, so it was difficult to distinguish which one caused the results.  However, things between us are better than they have been in a long time. 

That sounds like a good idea you had about deciding to stop trying to improve the romantic relationship.  I predict that if you continue to stand firm on the boundaries, even without pursuing the romantic side, she may well start initiating sex with you.  Please do keep us posted on how things are going.

[teapay]

Is your boundary a good night sleep, especially in the AM?  If so, you made a go start by requesting that she not set her alarm if she isn't using it.  Making that request is one way to enforce your boundary.  It is what normal people do and normal people usually respond to it.  It sounds like your W rattled a saber back at you, but hasn't actually crxxped on your request yet.  Wait and see.  If that does happen, how else can you enforce that boundary?  Smash the alarm?   Can you get an alarm without the snooze?  Can you sleep somewhere else in the house?  Ultimately, that is what I ended up doing.  It works well.  Much more peaceful.  It bothered the W but works so much better for me. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

BVOM:  Good for you, congrats on standing up for yourself on the alarm thing.   

In my relationship with my uBPDw, I started implementing boundaries and validation at the same time, so it was difficult to distinguish which one caused the results.  However, things between us are better than they have been in a long time. 

That sounds like a good idea you had about deciding to stop trying to improve the romantic relationship.  I predict that if you continue to stand firm on the boundaries, even without pursuing the romantic side, she may well start initiating sex with you.  Please do keep us posted on how things are going.

Thanks for the note!  Things aren't all that bad in my situation after having read other people's stories on here. The funny part is, she not only was cool about it after having sent a few mean texts, but she was overly apologetic the next day about not doing it again.  She was gone all day today at a race and came home and thanked me profusely letting her go and watching the kids, etc.  Another thing that I have been doing is made the proclamation that I won't be responding to texts all that much and if she needs me then she should call me.  It has worked repeatedly.  I realize that I have been so PTSD over how bad the vicious texts got at one point that I had created this horrible vision about what communication looks like.  It really isn't that big of a deal.  Texting is her weapon, and I took it away.  I only respond on occasion or when I feel like it.  I just don't get using text as one's primary form of communication.  It is the cause of so many misunderstandings IMHO.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Is your boundary a good night sleep, especially in the AM?  If so, you made a go start by requesting that she not set her alarm if she isn't using it.  Making that request is one way to enforce your boundary.  It is what normal people do and normal people usually respond to it.  It sounds like your W rattled a saber back at you, but hasn't actually crxxped on your request yet.  Wait and see.  If that does happen, how else can you enforce that boundary?  Smash the alarm?   Can you get an alarm without the snooze?  Can you sleep somewhere else in the house?  Ultimately, that is what I ended up doing.  It works well.  Much more peaceful.  It bothered the W but works so much better for me. 

She got the message and could tell I had had enough of that alarm.  No, she hasn't crxxped on my request yet at all.  The sex thing has led to so many fights over the years, also one of her favorite weapons so I am taking that away too, but just not in the way I originally had thought.  It is a mindset thing for me.  I'm not having sex for the time being, period.  I will take care of myself as need be and be just fine.  I think the hope that there might be sex each night kept me in an unnatural state of mind and at times in pursuit mode.  I feel released in a way that I can be happy and fine without having sex with her and that is how I gained power back for myself. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Great weekend for Father's Day, lots of fun at beach.  She put kids down and immediately go grumpy and a headache which I ignored and did my own thing.  When it comes to validation, I guess I am having a hard time because I don't want to validate things that I don't believe shouldn't be validated which I need to change.  When she comes down and starts complaining about this and that, what should my frame of mind be about her behavior?  When this dramatic complaining begins, inside my head I am saying, "I don't want to hear it.  If you can't get the kids to do what you want them to do then read several parenting books like I have.  If you keep getting headaches throughout each day then go see a doctor or read a book about anxiety to improve things."  Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us? 

This morning her alarm went off and I asked her if she was gonna get up and she said yes, and so she did.  Later that morning she came at me again about how she didn't like me asking her if she was gonna get up, etc.  I re-confirmed my stance that I have no issue with the use of her alarm to get up, but I do have an issue of when she hits snooze repeatedly which effects my sleep, and that I need my sleep.  She pushed again and I calmly told her what I need and then it was done.  She wasn't mad or anything after, it is just how she rolls. 

[Wrongturn1]

Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us? 

This sounds very familiar to me.  It's not uncommon for my uBPDw to be very affectionate throughout the day, then as soon as the kids go to bed, she's talking about how many Fiber One bars she ate that day and therefore how bloated and gassy she is, or how tired she is, or how worried she is that she thinks she has [insert any random type of cancer here] cancer - all strongly signaling that there will be no sexual activity of any kind that night.  Sometimes she's more explicit about it at that point, telling me "we will have sex one of these days eventually, but not tonight."

I think the hope that there might be sex each night kept me in an unnatural state of mind and at times in pursuit mode.  I feel released in a way that I can be happy and fine without having sex with her and that is how I gained power back for myself.

This is a great nugget of wisdom.  For a lot of us nice guy nons, it's easy to let the lure of possible near-future sex completely affect the way we behave and prioritize our activities and attitudes.  Letting go of this can be a key to freedom for the individual and improvement in the relationship.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us? 

This sounds very familiar to me.  It's not uncommon for my uBPDw to be very affectionate throughout the day, then as soon as the kids go to bed, she's talking about how many Fiber One bars she ate that day and therefore how bloated and gassy she is, or how tired she is, or how worried she is that she thinks she has [insert any random type of cancer here] cancer - all strongly signaling that there will be no sexual activity of any kind that night.  Sometimes she's more explicit about it at that point, telling me "we will have sex one of these days eventually, but not tonight."

I think the hope that there might be sex each night kept me in an unnatural state of mind and at times in pursuit mode.  I feel released in a way that I can be happy and fine without having sex with her and that is how I gained power back for myself.

This is a great nugget of wisdom.  For a lot of us nice guy nons, it's easy to let the lure of possible near-future sex completely affect the way we behave and prioritize our activities and attitudes.  Letting go of this can be a key to freedom for the individual and improvement in the relationship.

Interesting feedback that you experience something similar.  I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation.  So let me ask you this... .  Typically sex is nearly always on her terms, meaning the when.  During things are great and we both know what to do to make ourselves happy.  I agree that she may initiate, but I don't want to go into nice little boy when she does again.  I want to delay it, at least 10 mins, any suggestions?

[Wrongturn1]

I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation. 

Yes!  I've sometimes thought to myself, "why would I want to have sex with someone who behaves this way?"  Because in spite of her ridiculous behavour on any given day, I'd still be ready to go there sexually if she somehow decided she wanted to.  So yeah, that's probably me being starved for validation and ready to accept whatever validation I could get from her, even and especially sexually.

Interesting feedback that you experience something similar.  I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation.  So let me ask you this... .  Typically sex is nearly always on her terms, meaning the when.  During things are great and we both know what to do to make ourselves happy.  I agree that she may initiate, but I don't want to go into nice little boy when she does again.  I want to delay it, at least 10 mins, any suggestions?

Sounds like you are saying that the next time she initiates (or somehow "announces" that she's willing to have sex with you), you would make her wait, say 10 minutes, before it's game-on?  That might be an interesting experiment, and it might be satisfying to give her some small taste of the way she has habitually made you wait all these years.  On the other hand, you'd probably want to think twice before stooping to her level... .that does sound a little bit manipulative.  Interesting idea, though - definitely let us know how it goes if you try it. 

Does she know you're prepared to take care of things for yourself when necessary, and how does she feel about that?  (Mine would have a huge meltdown if I announced that.)

[waverider]

requesting she doesn't set the alarm is not a boundary it is a demand. Her ignoring your request is testing to see if you have a boundary.

A boundary require you to do something that is independent of her input to remove the your exposure to the behavior.

Asking her to go into the other room is upping the conflict.

Requesting her to stop is no more than a shot across the bow. You fire one shot only and that YOU need to do something that she has no control over. eg you go move in the other room.

Is it fair? No, but fighting for fair means fighting for control. If you make a decision and action in you retain control.

Most importantly in the bigger picture you set a precedent of not having control taken from you and not having to justify yourself.

Setting a precedent that you are willing to action boundaries and not be drawn into explaining or squabbling about them is a major factor in their success. In fact not arguing about boundaries is a good one in itself.

You will not get voluntary compliance over boundaries, otherwise you wouldn't have needed them in the first place

[BestVersionOfMe]

I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation. 

Yes!  I've sometimes thought to myself, "why would I want to have sex with someone who behaves this way?"  Because in spite of her ridiculous behavour on any given day, I'd still be ready to go there sexually if she somehow decided she wanted to.  So yeah, that's probably me being starved for validation and ready to accept whatever validation I could get from her, even and especially sexually.

Interesting feedback that you experience something similar.  I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation.  So let me ask you this... .  Typically sex is nearly always on her terms, meaning the when.  During things are great and we both know what to do to make ourselves happy.  I agree that she may initiate, but I don't want to go into nice little boy when she does again.  I want to delay it, at least 10 mins, any suggestions?

Sounds like you are saying that the next time she initiates (or somehow "announces" that she's willing to have sex with you), you would make her wait, say 10 minutes, before it's game-on?  That might be an interesting experiment, and it might be satisfying to give her some small taste of the way she has habitually made you wait all these years.  On the other hand, you'd probably want to think twice before stooping to her level... .that does sound a little bit manipulative.  Interesting idea, though - definitely let us know how it goes if you try it. 

Does she know you're prepared to take care of things for yourself when necessary, and how does she feel about that?  (Mine would have a huge meltdown if I announced that.)

On some levels everything is a game.  This is more about building anticipation and being a confident man rather than acting like a puppy that who's owner just said I'm taking you for a walk.  It really is unrelated to BPD, and something more about my own masculinity.  As far as taking care of myself, I am not making an announcement, but I am going to do what I need to do to meet my own needs for now.  I don't think announcement is necessary do you?

[BestVersionOfMe]

requesting she doesn't set the alarm is not a boundary it is a demand. Her ignoring your request is testing to see if you have a boundary.

A boundary require you to do something that is independent of her input to remove the your exposure to the behavior.

Asking her to go into the other room is upping the conflict.

Requesting her to stop is no more than a shot across the bow. You fire one shot only and that YOU need to do something that she has no control over. eg you go move in the other room.

Is it fair? No, but fighting for fair means fighting for control. If you make a decision and action in you retain control.

Most importantly in the bigger picture you set a precedent of not having control taken from you and not having to justify yourself.

Setting a precedent that you are willing to action boundaries and not be drawn into explaining or squabbling about them is a major factor in their success. In fact not arguing about boundaries is a good one in itself.

You will not get voluntary compliance over boundaries, otherwise you wouldn't have needed them in the first place

Ok fair enough, poor choice of words.  I am pushing back with something that bothers me and being very open and honest about it, whereas before I would hold it in till I'd explode.  It is inconsiderate to hit the snooze button repeatedly around another person and she needs to know that so I told her.  In the future I could limit my comments to things like, "It really bothers me when you hit the snooze repeatedly.  It effects my sleep and I don't like it" and then let the chips fall.  Whether it is a boundary or just disrespectful behavior, it bothers me so I will say something.  Just like tonight when she misplaced something and then blamed my daughter for it, I spoke up and said, "She is upset because she is being blamed for something she didn't do and feels frustrated, that's all."  The problem with speaking up like this is that it is very invalidating.  I need practice being able to do both, and admit that I need a lot of help in this regard. 

[waverider]

Speaking up is important. it needs to be done so that it is effective. If you seriously want to change behavior it will need to backed up by a boundary action by you. If it is simply a need to feel like your view has been aired, even if not acted on then that is ok too. Trying to sell your view and having it accommodated, is usually a waste of energy. Better to state it once then either let it go or act on it as a boundary. Just avoid trying to rephrase or justify it. That will take you off on a tangent somewhere

Once you can manage these two reasons for speaking/acting, then it becomes easier to accept and let flow a whole lot of other minor issues. Knowing where to draw the differences is important. It will make it easier for both of you.

The compounding effect of trying to let everything pass completely undermines your own sense of empowerment, as you have found out.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Speaking up is important. it needs to be done so that it is effective. If you seriously want to change behavior it will need to backed up by a boundary action by you. If it is simply a need to feel like your view has been aired, even if not acted on then that is ok too. Trying to sell your view and having it accommodated, is usually a waste of energy. Better to state it once then either let it go or act on it as a boundary. Just avoid trying to rephrase or justify it. That will take you off on a tangent somewhere

Once you can manage these two reasons for speaking/acting, then it becomes easier to accept and let flow a whole lot of other minor issues. Knowing where to draw the differences is important. It will make it easier for both of you.

The compounding effect of trying to let everything pass completely undermines your own sense of empowerment, as you have found out.

Ok how about I shorten even more.  "It bothers me when you hit the snooze 6 or 7 times in a row, can you not do that anymore?  Thanks."

[waverider]

Thats fine.

What happens if she does it again?

Does it bother you enough to do anything about it, or is it enough that you have had your say.?

The goal is to avoid having an unresolved conflict over it that will flow over onto something else.

[Wrongturn1]

This is more about building anticipation and being a confident man rather than acting like a puppy that who's owner just said I'm taking you for a walk.  It really is unrelated to BPD, and something more about my own masculinity.  

I like the swagger... .who would want to be a puppy?  

And I don't see any announcements being necessary about taking care of business solo.  Any reasonable spouse would understand about that being the best alternative if there's not enough physical intimacy in the relationship.

Waverider's boundary distinction is also a good one.  The boundary might be:  "I won't sleep in the same room with someone who presses the snooze button multiple times every morning."  Then you would be the one having to sleep someplace else if she persists in pressing snooze multiple times after you have communicated your boundary.  If you're not willing to sleep someplace else over this, then it's not really a boundary, because boundaries are about what steps you will take to prevent harm to yourself - not rules to control what other people do.  Sometimes the other person will choose to alter their behavior as a result of our boundaries, but that is voluntary on their part.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Thats fine.

What happens if she does it again?

Does it bother you enough to do anything about it, or is it enough that you have had your say.?

The goal is to avoid having an unresolved conflict over it that will flow over onto something else.

Sometimes speaking up is enough.  This morning she got up without hitting snooze repeatedly.  Through experiences like that as well as others I noticed that a lot of the perceived conflict is in my head.  She talks a lot, complains a lot, and asks for a lot of help, but she isn't truly upset if she doesn't get what she wants.  It is like a constant barrage of requests or complaints that come out of a Gatling Gun or something.  But like this morning, she went running and sent me a text that said, "Will be back by 8.  Please get kids up and fed, I will make lunches."  I didn't respond to it, got up at 7 and went in the garage and worked out.  I finished around 8 right when she walked in the door.  She said, "You didn't make lunches?  Its kind of a late start."  I simply said, "I needed to get a work out in before I leave for work."  I went upstairs to shower and she made breakfast and lunches for the kids.  She wasn't mad per se, but she doesn't ask questions, she barks orders and occasionally adds a "please" like this one.  Or she will make statements via text such as, "We need $20 cash for camp for tomorrow."  She doesn't want to deal with it, so she tries to unload things like that on me and I don't know the difference between being helpful or being taken advantage of.  The texting thing is a huge problem and so I continue to discourage it as much as possible by just not responding, or telling her to call me. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

This is more about building anticipation and being a confident man rather than acting like a puppy that who's owner just said I'm taking you for a walk.  It really is unrelated to BPD, and something more about my own masculinity.  

I like the swagger... .who would want to be a puppy?  

And I don't see any announcements being necessary about taking care of business solo.  Any reasonable spouse would understand about that being the best alternative if there's not enough physical intimacy in the relationship.

Waverider's boundary distinction is also a good one.  The boundary might be:  "I won't sleep in the same room with someone who presses the snooze button multiple times every morning."  Then you would be the one having to sleep someplace else if she persists in pressing snooze multiple times after you have communicated your boundary.  If you're not willing to sleep someplace else over this, then it's not really a boundary, because boundaries are about what steps you will take to prevent harm to yourself - not rules to control what other people do.  Sometimes the other person will choose to alter their behavior as a result of our boundaries, but that is voluntary on their part.

Yes I realize that my other statements or requests weren't really boundaries.  I guess it is an overall theme of pushing back so that she handles her own sh*t and stops trying to push it onto me, because then I get resentful.  I have observed her family and I think a lot of it is cultures colliding.  The way that they communicate with each other is very abrasive and rude, yet none of them seem to be bothered by it, it is just what they do.  From my perspective however I find it to be totally out of line, not to mention inefficient in terms of getting what you want from other people. 

[waverider]

Often neediness isn't about the need being asked for, it is about the process of asking for needs to be met. Hence it is transferable to any subject, and actually having the request met or not has little impact. They simply have a knee jerk impulse to ask for things and handball responsibility.

Consistently tring to meet those needs sets a precedent and expectation. Often a simple no, or just ignoring them prevents this. The lack of consistency means what is essential now at the time of asking, has little importance even a short time later, so whether that need was met or not is no longer important to them, as their thoughts are now on something else.

Like everything it is important that you can see for yourself what is important, or not, and make your own call, rather than trying to guess what is important to her. That way we dont simply rebel out of principle, leading to unnecessary conflict. Similar to the way your perception is "she always hits the snooze button" whereas it is only sometimes but it has lodged in your mind as a point of contention.

On the subject of inconsistent annoyances like your example it is hard to have a boundary, as sleeping in the other room is pre emptive in order to address a maybe.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Often neediness isn't about the need being asked for, it is about the process of asking for needs to be met. Hence it is transferable to any subject, and actually having the request met or not has little impact. They simply have a knee jerk impulse to ask for things and handball responsibility.

Consistently tring to meet those needs sets a precedent and expectation. Often a simple no, or just ignoring them prevents this. The lack of consistency means what is essential now at the time of asking, has little importance even a short time later, so whether that need was met or not is no longer important to them, as their thoughts are now on something else.

Like everything it is important that you can see for yourself what is important, or not, and make your own call, rather than trying to guess what is important to her. That way we dont simply rebel out of principle, leading to unnecessary conflict. Similar to the way your perception is "she always hits the snooze button" whereas it is only sometimes but it has lodged in your mind as a point of contention.

On the subject of inconsistent annoyances like your example it is hard to have a boundary, as sleeping in the other room is pre emptive in order to address a maybe.

child

So what you are saying is that it may not be that she has so many needs, it is that she feels compelled to ask for so much in order to repeat her familiar childhood experience of not getting her needs met?  In other words, if she asks for so much, she inevitably will not get many of her needs met. 

[waverider]

Neediness is a process of getting people to do things for you, doesn't matter what it is, but as long as you are getting people to interact and do things for you it validates you. Eventually it just becomes automatic to ask people to do things for you. The needy person also convinces themselves they are incapable of doing anything for themselves.

Its more of a rhetorical action.

Its a bit like a river, you can't stop a river from being a river by adding water to it. It just becomes bigger and your own resources dwindle.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Neediness is a process of getting people to do things for you, doesn't matter what it is, but as long as you are getting people to interact and do things for you it validates you. Eventually it just becomes automatic to ask people to do things for you. The needy person also convinces themselves they are incapable of doing anything for themselves.

Its more of a rhetorical action.

Its a bit like a river, you can't stop a river from being a river by adding water to it. It just becomes bigger and your own resources dwindle.

So the barrage of requests is about feeling validated?  So if someone does something for her, that makes her feel important, needed, wanted?  How about when that request isn't met quickly, the inevitable, "You mean you didn't bring me the widget?" 

[waverider]

How about when that request isn't met quickly, the inevitable, "You mean you didn't bring me the widget?" 

Its not always inevitable, that is our perception, it just feels inevitable.

You will never stop the neediness but you can prevent the expectation that you will always dance to it.

Our task is to work out what is important, and what isn't, regardless of anyone else's agenda.

[Lilyroze]

Great weekend for Father's Day, lots of fun at beach.  She put kids down and immediately go grumpy and a headache which I ignored and did my own thing.  When it comes to validation, I guess I am having a hard time because I don't want to validate things that I don't believe shouldn't be validated which I need to change.  When she comes down and starts complaining about this and that, what should my frame of mind be about her behavior?  When this dramatic complaining begins, inside my head I am saying, "I don't want to hear it.  If you can't get the kids to do what you want them to do then read several parenting books like I have.  If you keep getting headaches throughout each day then go see a doctor or read a book about anxiety to improve things."  Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us?  

This morning her alarm went off and I asked her if she was gonna get up and she said yes, and so she did.  Later that morning she came at me again about how she didn't like me asking her if she was gonna get up, etc.  I re-confirmed my stance that I have no issue with the use of her alarm to get up, but I do have an issue of when she hits snooze repeatedly which effects my sleep, and that I need my sleep.  She pushed again and I calmly told her what I need and then it was done.  She wasn't mad or anything after, it is just how she rolls.  

I am not sure if I am allowed to post this here, if not moderators please feel free to mod or delete.

I use to have migraines so bad I was in bed for days ( I am in Natural Health Field by the way but please understand this is not medical advice... .) but once I cut out all MSG ( which is in so many foods) they stopped. One of the main symptoms of MSG is bloated stomach, headaches etc. If she could alleviate that it might make a world of difference for her.

Hope this helps.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

This is really great info on neediness, waverider.  Thank you for sharing.  The river metaphor really resonates:  "you can't stop a river from being a river by adding water to it.  It just becomes bigger while your own resources dwindle."  This is a great reminder that saying no isn't mean.  It is smart. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

How about when that request isn't met quickly, the inevitable, "You mean you didn't bring me the widget?" 

Its not always inevitable, that is our perception, it just feels inevitable.

You will never stop the neediness but you can prevent the expectation that you will always dance to it.

Our task is to work out what is important, and what isn't, regardless of anyone else's agenda.

Yep great point.  I almost don't even feel like I should spend time here and just go back to my journey of self development and discovery.  I have come a long way, but still need to get in touch with my true self and flourish.   Spending time worrying about my wife's journey.  The biggest thing I accomplished by coming back here is to confirm that the subconscious attachment and preoccupation with sex is creating all kinds of problems and petty little fights.  Over the past week or so, it is almost like we are getting to know each other all over again.  Talking a lot.  It was almost like I didn't even know her, yet I was intimately personal with her disorder, tendencies, etc.  There is a real person there, one who really enjoys having conversations with the man she married.  Perhaps the other stuff with slowly come back over time, but for now I think it is time that I get to become more intimate with her true being.  Great advice Waverider!

[BestVersionOfMe]

It is after nights like tonight where I throw away all I've learned, get pissed off and despondent.  Nothing was really dramatic, it is more about the word "no" causing immature behavior and emotional distance in the relationship.  What is it about the word "no" that causes borderlines to act so immature and uninterested in the relationship?  "No, I don't want to put the kids to bed, we agreed on switching off each night."  I held my ground which is great, but at what expense?  Boom!  Then she got really quiet verbally, but began vacuuming, cleaning, and slamming cabinets while going to bed early.  And then there was the question, "will you make sure the house isn't totally destroyed while I'm gone tomorrow morning?"  These are "tests" but the problem is that silence is still a form of a reaction to her cr*p.  So exhausting... .

On another note, it is clear to me that most BPD women that I see examples of on this forum are very needy.  Mine isn't.  She is standoffish and seemingly uninterested in a romantic relationship for the most part.  She has so much going on socially or other that the last thing on her mind is our relationship.  It isn't that we don't have a good time with each other, but it is more that is almost entirely platonic. 

[waverider]

Some pwBPD pack their life with stuff as a way of coping. Sometimes overdoing it, and often trying hard to appear capable as they fear not appearing competent. As that is a kin to not being in control.

A straight "no" is like brick wall. I try to use "I wont be/ dont want to do XYZ". Still wont like it but not as confronting. Liberal reference to "I" almost challenges them to openly try to control you, as opposed to playing the victim to your "no" (by means of deprivation). Keeps you on the moral high ground

[BestVersionOfMe]

Some pwBPD pack their life with stuff as a way of coping. Sometimes overdoing it, and often trying hard to appear capable as they fear not appearing competent. As that is a kin to not being in control.

A straight "no" is like brick wall. I try to use "I wont be/ dont want to do XYZ". Still wont like it but not as confronting. Liberal reference to "I" almost challenges them to openly try to control you, as opposed to playing the victim to your "no" (by means of deprivation). Keeps you on the moral high ground

I think there is a lot of truth to feeling insignificant or incompetent.  In fact she says a lot of things too to "appear" the way she wants.  She talks about cleaning all the time, yet aside from moments of OCD bouts, she rarely really does.  She is a stay at home mom and also talks about how she has been with the kids "all day" and that she is so tired and spent.  The reality is they are in school from 8-3 so she has a solid 5 hour break.  During the summer they are mostly in camps.  She doesn't work, doesn't cook all that often, I do, and is kind of a hoarder, garage is packed.  Now in her defense, I also think that I started to do more myself to appear more in control and "perfect" as well which is my co-dependent side coming out.  As I've backed off again in and putting more time into running my company she has had to step it up and has done a fairly good job.  There are a lot of other things that are blatantly obvious about her behavior that I'm sure she really struggles with such as losing numerous items each day in front of everyone, her keys, her phone, her watch, her various running hats or tops, bills, paperwork, etc.  I'm sure she is embarrassed and it is a blatant indicator of her being disordered even though she has denied any possibility of a disorder.  She has researched Graves Disease, food allergies, done blood work for numerous other physical conditions to explain her tummy issues, headaches, dizziness, forgetfulness, anxiety, and anger.  The reality that she might have a personality disorder is just something she refuses to face at as of this moment just too painful.  On the outside to the outside world she is wonder woman based upon her Facebook account and her many posts which she painstakingly crafts with the skill of a producer.  She has successfully created the illusion of who she would like to be and fooled our entire circle of friends.  Only my immediate family is aware of some of the struggles she and I have faced and about the disorder, so aside from my sister, she has eliminated them from her life.  I guess it pisses me off that we have a pretty decent relationship that is actually improving, yet she is so uninterested in having a romantic sexual relationship.  Ok, got it out of my system!

As far as using the word "I" when I defer her requests I think that is a great tool.  There is a lot of passive language in this house by both of us, but I have become much better.  Her most common thing would be, "I'll have you put the kids to bed."  It drives me crazy and I've better at just saying "no" since in reality it is just a test anyways.  Last night I challenged her outright when she told all three kids, "You're gonna finish your dinner and then read for 10 mins."  I said, "You know honey, people really don't like being told what to do, will you just ask the kids to do things with a please and thank you moving forward?"  She grumbled but complied.  Then when she made the comment, "can you make sure the house isn't destroyed while I'm gone tomorrow morning", I ignored her.  She kept pushing so finally I said, "I'm just not going to acknowledge comments like that."  Between that and me refusing to put the kids down for her there was nearly all silence for the rest of the night and she went to bed early.  Usually when this happens she gets resentful the next day and gets a combative type of attitude with me about stupid little things.  She gets demanding and starts telling me all the things we "need" to pay for.  I think this is her attempt to try and make herself feel superior to me if we can't pay for every single thing the house needs.  I just ignore it.  I swear, if you don't live with someone with this disorder and I began explaining to someone what happens I don't think they would even believe it or understand it.  It literally doesn't make much sense. 

[waverider]

I swear, if you don't live with someone with this disorder and I began explaining to someone what happens I don't think they would even believe it or understand it.  It literally doesn't make much sense. 

This is why few people, outside of someone who has lived with it, can pick up on the disorder and why high functioning pwBPD can maintain the "perfect" facade, as they can seem more capable than the average person, and people can actually admire them. Which is the sort of validation that sustains them. making you look even less appreciative and critical in comparison.

" Why can't you tell me i am superwoman/man like others do?"

[BestVersionOfMe]

I swear, if you don't live with someone with this disorder and I began explaining to someone what happens I don't think they would even believe it or understand it.  It literally doesn't make much sense. 

This is why few people, outside of someone who has lived with it, can pick up on the disorder and why high functioning pwBPD can maintain the "perfect" facade, as they can seem more capable than the average person, and people can actually admire them. Which is the sort of validation that sustains them. making you look even less appreciative and critical in comparison.

" Why can't you tell me i am superwoman/man like others do?"

I'm hearing it right now, she just can't handle the kids making a bit of noise, or the dog following her around.  If anyone else that knows us saw this, they'd be surprised for sure.  With that being said, it has nothing to do with me so I'm gonna post a bit and relax.  The melt downs aren't epic, but just enough to cause irritation throughout the house and of course to prevent intimacy between the two of us.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

If there are intimacy issues she may need that continuous low level conflict to provide a reason why, in order to avoid the real issue, maybe?

[BestVersionOfMe]

If there are intimacy issues she may need that continuous low level conflict to provide a reason why, in order to avoid the real issue, maybe?

Quite possibly to avoid my push for sex which has been a relentless push and struggle issue for me for so long.  Our last major fight was about that topic and so I think she is holding on to that for control and is waiting for the inevitable push.  This is the first time I've committed to backing off on the sex thing however so it might take her some time before she truly feels relaxed about the pressure for sex.  And yes she has intimacy issues, always has.  Has no need for affection, touch, etc.  Uncomfortable with kissing and hugs.  I've been blowing up every few months consistently for years so I think she is likely always on alert for the next time I get fed up and come after her.  I'm committed to refraining from such pointless fights and being more open and honest about how I feel at times.  Things are better, but it is frustrating having this beautiful woman sleep next to me each night and not have an intimate and romantic relationship with her.

[waverider]

Things are better, but it is frustrating having this beautiful woman sleep next to me each night and not have an intimate and romantic relationship with her.

I experienced that in a previous relationship once. Like having a Ferrari in the drive with a seized engine. Everyone was jealous, but there was no benefit to me.

Intimacy is an issue with my wife at the moment, but that is a consequence of body image following a masectomy after breast cancer. Frustrating but more understandable.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Things are better, but it is frustrating having this beautiful woman sleep next to me each night and not have an intimate and romantic relationship with her.

I experienced that in a previous relationship once. Like having a Ferrari in the drive with a seized engine. Everyone was jealous, but there was no benefit to me.

Intimacy is an issue with my wife at the moment, but that is a consequence of body image following a masectomy after breast cancer. Frustrating but more understandable.

Yeah good way to put it.  Mine has body image issues too, but hers aren't really healthy ones if there is such a thing.  I can see your wife feeling insecure about her body after something like that.  But it isn't just the lack of sex per se, as much as it is the indifference about having a romantic relationship in the first place.  Unlike many stories on here, my wife is not needy in the sense that she worries that I'm cheating on her or that I'm gonna leave her, but I think that is a reflection of how much I chased for so long.  Rather than chasing, which is super unattractive, I am focusing on growing my company and finding myself again.  It'll be better for both of us. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Does anyone have a BPD loved one that obsessively works out?  Mine might run 7-8 miles in the morning, and then do an hour long cardio class middle of the day or around dinner time.  Sometimes she will do the trifecta and work out three times.  She complains about being tired all the time and usually goes to bed early which kills intimacy obviously.  I don't know if the obsessive exercising is her way of feeling normal and productive, or if it is a self-punishment thing, but it is odd to say the least.  I don't know if I am irritated because she isn't spending that time with me, or because she makes excuses as to why she has no time to get things done around the house constantly, or feels "rushed."  In the past my response would be, "You know, if you didn't run for two hours, then you might have more time to get your to do list done and not feel so rushed."   She won't have it.  I realize I encourage other people not to obsess over their BPD loved one's behaviors, but I guess for me I just want to get a feel for what is happening since it is so bizarre.  Just now like clock work she said she couldn't keep her eyes open and went upstairs.  I was also looking at her facebook posts. The comments she gets is how she is such an amazing mom, super fit, that she does everything, and that they are so inspired by her.  If they only knew the truth behind it all.  She has succeeded in creating the image of herself that she wants and Facebook is how she does it.  No wonder she won't accept that she might have some issues.  In her mind how could it even be possible?

[waverider]

Mine has had this obsession at various stages of her life. Now she would'nt even walk to the letter box.

2 reasons she did it in the past, first when she was young it was a way of compensating for her other "failures" so she had to be extremely fit to prove her  worth to herself, enough was never enough.

The other time was when we first met and she was in the idealization phase and mirroring me, but adding a bit to prove a point, in the all or nothing black and white way.

If you cant control the mind you can compensate by controlling the body

[BestVersionOfMe]

Mine has had this obsession at various stages of her life. Now she would'nt even walk to the letter box.

2 reasons she did it in the past, first when she was young it was a way of compensating for her other "failures" so she had to be extremely fit to prove her  worth to herself, enough was never enough.

The other time was when we first met and she was in the idealization phase and mirroring me, but adding a bit to prove a point, in the all or nothing black and white way.

If you cant control the mind you can compensate by controlling the body

No surprises her.  I guess I already knew this, just trolling for validation.  Thanks waverider!

[BestVersionOfMe]

Mine has had this obsession at various stages of her life. Now she would'nt even walk to the letter box.

2 reasons she did it in the past, first when she was young it was a way of compensating for her other "failures" so she had to be extremely fit to prove her  worth to herself, enough was never enough.

The other time was when we first met and she was in the idealization phase and mirroring me, but adding a bit to prove a point, in the all or nothing black and white way.

If you cant control the mind you can compensate by controlling the body

She just signed up for a 50 mile race in November.  I told her I was all for it, provided that it wasn't impacting her responsibilities here at home, ie. getting home late when I have somewhere to be for work. 

No surprises her.  I guess I already knew this, just trolling for validation.  Thanks waverider!

[BestVersionOfMe]

Ok so wife is so clearly withdrawn and distant.  As I read post after post on this site I consistently see the fear of abandonment being the dominant theme in nearly all relationships. I am experiencing something entirely different in my current relationship with my udBPD wife.  She seems uninterested in intimacy and frankly not interested in me at all.  She displays so many characteristics of someone with BPD, but she also displays many characteristics that she just has a lot of interests.  She was very quiet last night and this morning grumpy and quiet as well.  She is going on a long run with a few friends and is being somewhat argumentative about going to the beach with the kids.  She doesn't want to commit to anything apparently.  In addition, I was sitting down having my coffee and she asked me if I'd go get her ipod out of the car for her since she was in her robe.  I said, "sure after I'm done with my coffee."  After about 5 mins she went out and got it herself.  I realize these are tests, but the problem with passing these tests is that she withdraws even further.  What I am left with is the ongoing dynamic of push/pull and I never know if what she really needs is my affection and consistent display of love or for me to just pursue my own interests and eventually have her pursue me.  I know I can't make her do anything but I'm feeling frustrated because despite knowing this disorder inside and out, I simply don't know what is happening and why so I am starting to question this dynamic between us entirely.  I've gone the route of exploring affairs, lack of attraction to me, libido issues, intimacy issues, and more but I have yet to put my finger on it.  Nothing makes any sense.  What I do know is that she isn't interested in affection, sex, or anything romantic of any sort.  Her interests are in obsessively running, facebook post liking(also obsessive), working out, group texting with her girlfriends, and pretty much just being away from the kids and I as much as possible.  She appears confident at times, especially in the relationship showing a superiority with me, yet at other times complete inadequacy.  What I am left with is a guy that has three life coaches, has read 60-70 books on BPD and personal development over the past 3-4 years, who is totally and utterly confused, frustrated, and exhausted.  Any insight to helping me understand the situation would be soo appreciated. 

[teapay]

The only terms I've been able to understand my W's behavior, thinking and moods is that of mental illness, and brain damage.  There is a brain at work, but it's not putting things together in an mature rational way that we normally expect from health adults.  Rather it is churning and being swept away by strong emotions and related thoughts.  Alot of the inexplicable behavior is being done to quench these strong emotions.  Almost like an animal in search of relief.  It would occur with or without a non involved, although r/s provide additional fodder for it.  Beyond that it is probably futile to try to understand further.  To do so can just suck us into the stream of madness and put us on the crazy train too.  Better to redirect to myself and make sure my "self" and life is in best order whatever the context and continue to make it better.

[waverider]

  Any insight to helping me understand the situation would be soo appreciated. 

She will probably never be content with wherever she is, always looking for the "magic pill". This is in the form of excessive interests. Activity gives our life a purpose, so more activity makes us essential and validated as being worthwhile. Many business leaders are high functioning BPD, not all are making a mess of their ability to function.

Likewise do not fill your life with the endless pursuit of the answer to it all, that becomes your chase for the "magic pill'. It can do your head in as much as the disorder itself.

If I were you I would cut back on the research and just focus on helping others here, as that helps consolidate things for you and provides reward at the same time. Part of the transition from survive to thrive.

I dont think the ipod thing was a test, more likely the requirement for instant gratification.  To test you she needs to be curious about you.

[BestVersionOfMe]

  Any insight to helping me understand the situation would be soo appreciated. 

She will probably never be content with wherever she is, always looking for the "magic pill". This is in the form of excessive interests. Activity gives our life a purpose, so more activity makes us essential and validated as being worthwhile. Many business leaders are high functioning BPD, not all are making a mess of their ability to function.

Likewise do not fill your life with the endless pursuit of the answer to it all, that becomes your chase for the "magic pill'. It can do your head in as much as the disorder itself.

If I were you I would cut back on the research and just focus on helping others here, as that helps consolidate things for you and provides reward at the same time. Part of the transition from survive to thrive.

I dont think the ipod thing was a test, more likely the requirement for instant gratification.  To test you she needs to be curious about you.

I hear you, and I don't think I want a magic pill, I guess I am baffled at her indifference.  Its not like we are fighting like cats and dogs or that she is disregulated all the time.  She is really quite functional.  It is almost like the better our communication gets, and the better I am at being less reactive to her, the more she distances herself from the family.  It's almost like she is single and very active, yet she has this thing called a family that gets in the way.  I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me:

"Borderlines can be completely devoid of any sensitivity as to how their behavior affects others. Because they are deep into their own worlds, there is very little, if any, capacity for caring about how others may feel towards their interpersonally and emotionally insensitive behaviors. For example, a female BP seems to be intermittently and cyclically at war with an intimate partner and is never quite aware of how she influences and drives him to extreme anger and even destructive rage. The partner may have to explore the depths and range of his own Pain and rage just to become less reactive to the borderline's destructiveness. If that does not work, then complete and total withdrawal from the relationship becomes the only open choice. The borderline is capable of provoking a partner into exploring the depths of hell and the heights of transcendent heaven. This occurs because the borderline lives in the realms of extreme emotional swings, instability, and contradictions."

In other words, as I got better at dealing with her behavior, the wars began to become less frequent.  So it is possible that the withdrawing is the Plan B mechanism because I won't engage in doing battle with her.  The indifference is because she is obtuse about how her withdrawing affects me. 

[waverider]

I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me

Probably the type of peaceful avoidance type relationships often grow into mutual indifference without BPD being flagged, and without the typical crisis situation that brings people here looking for help.  It probably is quite common, and likely a common reason relationship dissolve for no apparent interest other than lack of common ground.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me

Probably the type of peaceful avoidance type relationships often grow into mutual indifference without BPD being flagged, and without the typical crisis situation that brings people here looking for help.  It probably is quite common, and likely a common reason relationship dissolve for no apparent interest other than lack of common ground.

Had a small moment that might provide some clarity.  The kids are not in school and my wife repeatedly tells my son not to get up in the morning and immediately get on his Ipad or other video games.  Most morning he ignores her and does it anyways.  The general theme is that my wife communicates in ways that are demanding and disrespectful to get the kids to do what she wants.  In other word she nags.  The kids don't respond to her and tune her out frequently because they have built up quite a bit of resent about it.  The 5 year old has figured out that if she whines or throws a fit that frequently my wife will simply not deal with it, try and divert it to me, or give in.  So the ongoing dynamic is that I end up in the middle.  I am trying to balance out trying to help my wife get her needs met, and for the most they are legitimate, and the kids who resent their mom.  There are times where I will stick up for the kids and let my wife know that the kids don't like the way she talks to them.  Nobody is budging.  My wife refuses to be respectful when communicating with the kids and the kids refuse to comply, at least not immediately, with her demands.  As a result my wife spends more and more time away from the family running, exercising, or hanging with friends because she can't handle it, and of course my sticking up for the kids comes back as direct criticism which causes a rift in our relationship.  She told me before she left for another two hour run, "I get no help from you."  So she just wants to be heard, but nobody wants to listen because she is downright rude, demanding, and disrespectful.  Part of this isn't BPD, part of this is a cultural difference.  My wife's culture is different from mine and listening to the vast majority of her extended family communicate, they tend to be way more harsh than most.  In other words, that is just how they roll.  Sometimes the kids and I want to relax rather than to be bombarded with demands yet in my wife's defense, if they would clean their rooms, put away their toys, or do things right the first time, then she wouldn't have to stop them mid-stream in whatever they are doing, to run upstairs.  The wife resents the kids because they don't cooperate with her, the wife resents the husband because he doesn't always take her side and pushes back at times when I feel she crossed the line, the kids resent the mom because of how she communicates with them, and the husband resents the wife because she is indifferent and uninterested in having a romantic relationship.  The only healthy relationship in the house is between the father and the three children. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me

Probably the type of peaceful avoidance type relationships often grow into mutual indifference without BPD being flagged, and without the typical crisis situation that brings people here looking for help.  It probably is quite common, and likely a common reason relationship dissolve for no apparent interest other than lack of common ground.

Had a small moment that might provide some clarity.  The kids are not in school and my wife repeatedly tells my son not to get up in the morning and immediately get on his Ipad or other video games.  Most morning he ignores her and does it anyways.  The general theme is that my wife communicates in ways that are demanding and disrespectful to get the kids to do what she wants.  In other word she nags.  The kids don't respond to her and tune her out frequently because they have built up quite a bit of resent about it.  The 5 year old has figured out that if she whines or throws a fit that frequently my wife will simply not deal with it, try and divert it to me, or give in.  So the ongoing dynamic is that I end up in the middle.  I am trying to balance out trying to help my wife get her needs met, and for the most they are legitimate, and the kids who resent their mom.  There are times where I will stick up for the kids and let my wife know that the kids don't like the way she talks to them.  Nobody is budging.  My wife refuses to be respectful when communicating with the kids and the kids refuse to comply, at least not immediately, with her demands.  As a result my wife spends more and more time away from the family running, exercising, or hanging with friends because she can't handle it, and of course my sticking up for the kids comes back as direct criticism which causes a rift in our relationship.  She told me before she left for another two hour run, "I get no help from you."  So she just wants to be heard, but nobody wants to listen because she is downright rude, demanding, and disrespectful.  Part of this isn't BPD, part of this is a cultural difference.  My wife's culture is different from mine and listening to the vast majority of her extended family communicate, they tend to be way more harsh than most.  In other words, that is just how they roll.  Sometimes the kids and I want to relax rather than to be bombarded with demands yet in my wife's defense, if they would clean their rooms, put away their toys, or do things right the first time, then she wouldn't have to stop them mid-stream in whatever they are doing, to run upstairs.  The wife resents the kids because they don't cooperate with her, the wife resents the husband because he doesn't always take her side and pushes back at times when I feel she crossed the line, the kids resent the mom because of how she communicates with them, and the husband resents the wife because she is indifferent and uninterested in having a romantic relationship.  The only healthy relationship in the house is between the father and the three children. 

I led a family discussion about communication revolving around the kids not listening as well as my wife's roll in that and that the entire thing feeds into each others reactions.  The kids get more resentful and therefore listen less and ignore more which means my wife gets even more demanding and disrespectful, which leads to more of the same.  Then I get fed up and jump in, which invalidates her even further.  She didn't have a great reaction to the plan but at least she said "Ok, that's fine."  At least we are all talking rather than never dealing with things that bother each other. 

[waverider]

This is the essence of dysfunction regardless of the cause, behaving in a way that is counter to getting a result, then persisting with it and not adapting to more productive ways.

It is the fear, and perception, of criticism that generally holds pwBPD to this path. All or nothing, if thy admit their ways are not working then they are admitting to being a total failure, and that is not an option. If they cant admit failure, then the lack of results has to be someone else's fault.

As you found you end up being stuck in the middle being totally inconsistent trying to help but actually fuelling it.

Not "having their back" is a common claim. The problem is they dont always tell it straight. So I make a point of only reacting to what I see or hear. I will not back my wife up on things i was not witness to merely on her say so. Otherwise i will get played. Its a shame, but it is the only way I can stay consistent

[BestVersionOfMe]

This is the essence of dysfunction regardless of the cause, behaving in a way that is counter to getting a result, then persisting with it and not adapting to more productive ways.

It is the fear, and perception, of criticism that generally holds pwBPD to this path. All or nothing, if thy admit their ways are not working then they are admitting to being a total failure, and that is not an option. If they cant admit failure, then the lack of results has to be someone else's fault.

As you found you end up being stuck in the middle being totally inconsistent trying to help but actually fuelling it.

Not "having their back" is a common claim. The problem is they dont always tell it straight. So I make a point of only reacting to what I see or hear. I will not back my wife up on things i was not witness to merely on her say so. Otherwise i will get played. Its a shame, but it is the only way I can stay consistent

So do you call your wife out every single time provided that you witnessed it or heard it first hand?  It's not like I don't hear other nagging wives or husbands in the community, it is pervasive in our culture for sure, but the resent is building with the kids and the wife is getting more frustrated than ever which is why she wants to take her long runs.  Overpowering others is her game plan and I think it makes her feel powerful, at least a false sense of power, not the real kind.  She even yells at the dog loudly to get her to like down in her bed when she is begging, even though she watches me not say a word and have her lie down with just a hand movement.  When we do talk we have great eye contact which is unusual I heard in people with BPD.  She looks away first but not after locking eyes for a good while.  I also find her to be incredibly determined as a person at times as it relates to herself, or with running races, or even something as simple as spending a ton of time going after just the right restaurant. 

[waverider]

Life is probably an endless challenge to her, not so much to win and be right, but more so a desire not to lose and be seen not to be wrong. Same result but the motivation is different.

I only call her out if she is directly trying to tell me what my reality is. If she is just distributing her skewed reality, I just let it slide. For example if she says 'you never help me" I ignore it. That is her reality not mine. If she says "you think XYZ", I will say they are not my thoughts at all. If she persists, i shrug it off i have said my piece, dont need tro argue about it.

if she says the kids did this or that, then its not my problem and wont take sides. Can be seen as not being supportive, but I am not willing to do that on what could be (probably is) flimsy evidence. That is how you get triangulated, by either party.

Of course I am human like anyone else and sometimes I will get angry, or even lose it. But I realize it straight away and so dont compound it with escalation. A it happens infrequently now she often is too stunned by it to escalate as long as I dont. I am putting this down to the reason being she is not primed for a conflict as she is not expecting one any more.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Life is probably an endless challenge to her, not so much to win and be right, but more so a desire not to lose and be seen not to be wrong. Same result but the motivation is different.

I only call her out if she is directly trying to tell me what my reality is. If she is just distributing her skewed reality, I just let it slide. For example if she says 'you never help me" I ignore it. That is her reality not mine. If she says "you think XYZ", I will say they are not my thoughts at all. If she persists, i shrug it off i have said my piece, dont need tro argue about it.

if she says the kids did this or that, then its not my problem and wont take sides. Can be seen as not being supportive, but I am not willing to do that on what could be (probably is) flimsy evidence. That is how you get triangulated, by either party.

Of course I am human like anyone else and sometimes I will get angry, or even lose it. But I realize it straight away and so dont compound it with escalation. A it happens infrequently now she often is too stunned by it to escalate as long as I dont. I am putting this down to the reason being she is not primed for a conflict as she is not expecting one any more.

I hear you.  In an effort to not initiate affection or pursue the sexual relationship I want I realized I have been purposely withholding affection myself.  I'm going to stop doing that.  I am going to do what feels good to me and just work on being less reactive when she is non-receptive.  Indifference is the goal for me.  I realized that withholding something she needs and wants is abusive too, so I don't think I can justify it, besides I need and want occasional kisses or bodily contact.  As far as the dynamic of the communication for us all, I am gonna go above and beyond in setting the standard as my primary method of encouraging everyone.  Lot of praise for the kids when they do things on their own without being asked, or respond rather than ignoring.  Same with wife, lots of praise her way. 

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