Been at it for so long - I

[BestVersionOfMe]

Ok so I have an un-diagnosed wife that shows all the symptoms of BPD.  I've read 7 books on the subject and have an hourly calls with my life coach/therapist, most of which revolve around trying to improve my relationship with my wife.  I know a lot of people are adamantly opposed to remaining in a relationship for the kids, but I've weighed my options and have seen the other sign with other close friends that went through my exact scenario and I am confident that my choice to remain in the relationship and seeing my three kids seven days a week is far better than the alternative.  It just isn't worth it to me to go through a high conflict divorce, a custody battle, and go broke during the process. 

With all of that being said, I am at a crossroads and heading a new direction in the relationship.  I've already come to the conclusion that for the time being trying to improve the romantic relationship is a waste of time.  I'm not going to pursue her or sex anymore, it just leads to co-dependent behavior and makes everything worse.  I can live without sex, I'm not gonna die or anything and historically I've placed so much importance on this one thing.  My main issue has to do with setting healthy boundaries consistently.  When I think of this subject I feel a lot of anxiety and all of the nasty and vicious texts from her when I attempt to do so.  Despite my many fears I am moving forward with it anyways and it started this morning.  My wife has had a long habit of setting daily alarms early in the morning so that she can get up and exercise or be productive or whatever her reasoning.  I think she has good intentions about it, but what ends up happening is that she hits the snooze button repeatedly which wakes me up over and over even though she rarely if ever gets up herself.  I've brought this up many times in the past but she hasn't respected my requests.  This morning I was dedicated to telling her that doing that effects me and is disrespectful and that I don't like it and to please stop.  So I let her know that verbally, and then she waited till I left and sent me a snarky text.  I replied "Stop with your rude texts, all I want is for you not to set an alarm that you are not gonna use because it effects my sleep and that I need and deserve sleep."  She fired back, "I will not be adjusting my alarm."  So I picked up the phone and called her but she didn't answer, so I left a voicemail reconfirming my request in a nice pleasant tone.  I even said, If you insist on doing that please sleep in another room."  She sent a text back, "I will not be moving rooms."

So my goal here is learn more about what might happen over time if I continue to push back and set boundaries with someone who historically I've allowed to not respect my boundaries, as well as to make sure that my boundaries are in fact healthy in terms of the request as well as how I phrase it.  I also want to hear from others that began to enforce boundaries and how that changed their relationship with their BPD loved one.  I'm exhausted I'm tired of the roller coaster and I feel like I understand her better than she does herself, but I really need to get this boundary setting thing down pat because in the past I have just not done it consistently because I didn't want to deal with the sh*t storm that usually follows. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wrongturn1]

BVOM:  Good for you, congrats on standing up for yourself on the alarm thing.   

In my relationship with my uBPDw, I started implementing boundaries and validation at the same time, so it was difficult to distinguish which one caused the results.  However, things between us are better than they have been in a long time. 

That sounds like a good idea you had about deciding to stop trying to improve the romantic relationship.  I predict that if you continue to stand firm on the boundaries, even without pursuing the romantic side, she may well start initiating sex with you.  Please do keep us posted on how things are going.

[teapay]

Is your boundary a good night sleep, especially in the AM?  If so, you made a go start by requesting that she not set her alarm if she isn't using it.  Making that request is one way to enforce your boundary.  It is what normal people do and normal people usually respond to it.  It sounds like your W rattled a saber back at you, but hasn't actually crxxped on your request yet.  Wait and see.  If that does happen, how else can you enforce that boundary?  Smash the alarm?   Can you get an alarm without the snooze?  Can you sleep somewhere else in the house?  Ultimately, that is what I ended up doing.  It works well.  Much more peaceful.  It bothered the W but works so much better for me. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

BVOM:  Good for you, congrats on standing up for yourself on the alarm thing.   

In my relationship with my uBPDw, I started implementing boundaries and validation at the same time, so it was difficult to distinguish which one caused the results.  However, things between us are better than they have been in a long time. 

That sounds like a good idea you had about deciding to stop trying to improve the romantic relationship.  I predict that if you continue to stand firm on the boundaries, even without pursuing the romantic side, she may well start initiating sex with you.  Please do keep us posted on how things are going.

Thanks for the note!  Things aren't all that bad in my situation after having read other people's stories on here. The funny part is, she not only was cool about it after having sent a few mean texts, but she was overly apologetic the next day about not doing it again.  She was gone all day today at a race and came home and thanked me profusely letting her go and watching the kids, etc.  Another thing that I have been doing is made the proclamation that I won't be responding to texts all that much and if she needs me then she should call me.  It has worked repeatedly.  I realize that I have been so PTSD over how bad the vicious texts got at one point that I had created this horrible vision about what communication looks like.  It really isn't that big of a deal.  Texting is her weapon, and I took it away.  I only respond on occasion or when I feel like it.  I just don't get using text as one's primary form of communication.  It is the cause of so many misunderstandings IMHO.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Is your boundary a good night sleep, especially in the AM?  If so, you made a go start by requesting that she not set her alarm if she isn't using it.  Making that request is one way to enforce your boundary.  It is what normal people do and normal people usually respond to it.  It sounds like your W rattled a saber back at you, but hasn't actually crxxped on your request yet.  Wait and see.  If that does happen, how else can you enforce that boundary?  Smash the alarm?   Can you get an alarm without the snooze?  Can you sleep somewhere else in the house?  Ultimately, that is what I ended up doing.  It works well.  Much more peaceful.  It bothered the W but works so much better for me. 

She got the message and could tell I had had enough of that alarm.  No, she hasn't crxxped on my request yet at all.  The sex thing has led to so many fights over the years, also one of her favorite weapons so I am taking that away too, but just not in the way I originally had thought.  It is a mindset thing for me.  I'm not having sex for the time being, period.  I will take care of myself as need be and be just fine.  I think the hope that there might be sex each night kept me in an unnatural state of mind and at times in pursuit mode.  I feel released in a way that I can be happy and fine without having sex with her and that is how I gained power back for myself. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Great weekend for Father's Day, lots of fun at beach.  She put kids down and immediately go grumpy and a headache which I ignored and did my own thing.  When it comes to validation, I guess I am having a hard time because I don't want to validate things that I don't believe shouldn't be validated which I need to change.  When she comes down and starts complaining about this and that, what should my frame of mind be about her behavior?  When this dramatic complaining begins, inside my head I am saying, "I don't want to hear it.  If you can't get the kids to do what you want them to do then read several parenting books like I have.  If you keep getting headaches throughout each day then go see a doctor or read a book about anxiety to improve things."  Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us? 

This morning her alarm went off and I asked her if she was gonna get up and she said yes, and so she did.  Later that morning she came at me again about how she didn't like me asking her if she was gonna get up, etc.  I re-confirmed my stance that I have no issue with the use of her alarm to get up, but I do have an issue of when she hits snooze repeatedly which effects my sleep, and that I need my sleep.  She pushed again and I calmly told her what I need and then it was done.  She wasn't mad or anything after, it is just how she rolls. 

[Wrongturn1]

Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us? 

This sounds very familiar to me.  It's not uncommon for my uBPDw to be very affectionate throughout the day, then as soon as the kids go to bed, she's talking about how many Fiber One bars she ate that day and therefore how bloated and gassy she is, or how tired she is, or how worried she is that she thinks she has [insert any random type of cancer here] cancer - all strongly signaling that there will be no sexual activity of any kind that night.  Sometimes she's more explicit about it at that point, telling me "we will have sex one of these days eventually, but not tonight."

I think the hope that there might be sex each night kept me in an unnatural state of mind and at times in pursuit mode.  I feel released in a way that I can be happy and fine without having sex with her and that is how I gained power back for myself.

This is a great nugget of wisdom.  For a lot of us nice guy nons, it's easy to let the lure of possible near-future sex completely affect the way we behave and prioritize our activities and attitudes.  Letting go of this can be a key to freedom for the individual and improvement in the relationship.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us? 

This sounds very familiar to me.  It's not uncommon for my uBPDw to be very affectionate throughout the day, then as soon as the kids go to bed, she's talking about how many Fiber One bars she ate that day and therefore how bloated and gassy she is, or how tired she is, or how worried she is that she thinks she has [insert any random type of cancer here] cancer - all strongly signaling that there will be no sexual activity of any kind that night.  Sometimes she's more explicit about it at that point, telling me "we will have sex one of these days eventually, but not tonight."

I think the hope that there might be sex each night kept me in an unnatural state of mind and at times in pursuit mode.  I feel released in a way that I can be happy and fine without having sex with her and that is how I gained power back for myself.

This is a great nugget of wisdom.  For a lot of us nice guy nons, it's easy to let the lure of possible near-future sex completely affect the way we behave and prioritize our activities and attitudes.  Letting go of this can be a key to freedom for the individual and improvement in the relationship.

Interesting feedback that you experience something similar.  I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation.  So let me ask you this... .  Typically sex is nearly always on her terms, meaning the when.  During things are great and we both know what to do to make ourselves happy.  I agree that she may initiate, but I don't want to go into nice little boy when she does again.  I want to delay it, at least 10 mins, any suggestions?

[Wrongturn1]

I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation. 

Yes!  I've sometimes thought to myself, "why would I want to have sex with someone who behaves this way?"  Because in spite of her ridiculous behavour on any given day, I'd still be ready to go there sexually if she somehow decided she wanted to.  So yeah, that's probably me being starved for validation and ready to accept whatever validation I could get from her, even and especially sexually.

Interesting feedback that you experience something similar.  I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation.  So let me ask you this... .  Typically sex is nearly always on her terms, meaning the when.  During things are great and we both know what to do to make ourselves happy.  I agree that she may initiate, but I don't want to go into nice little boy when she does again.  I want to delay it, at least 10 mins, any suggestions?

Sounds like you are saying that the next time she initiates (or somehow "announces" that she's willing to have sex with you), you would make her wait, say 10 minutes, before it's game-on?  That might be an interesting experiment, and it might be satisfying to give her some small taste of the way she has habitually made you wait all these years.  On the other hand, you'd probably want to think twice before stooping to her level... .that does sound a little bit manipulative.  Interesting idea, though - definitely let us know how it goes if you try it. 

Does she know you're prepared to take care of things for yourself when necessary, and how does she feel about that?  (Mine would have a huge meltdown if I announced that.)

[waverider]

requesting she doesn't set the alarm is not a boundary it is a demand. Her ignoring your request is testing to see if you have a boundary.

A boundary require you to do something that is independent of her input to remove the your exposure to the behavior.

Asking her to go into the other room is upping the conflict.

Requesting her to stop is no more than a shot across the bow. You fire one shot only and that YOU need to do something that she has no control over. eg you go move in the other room.

Is it fair? No, but fighting for fair means fighting for control. If you make a decision and action in you retain control.

Most importantly in the bigger picture you set a precedent of not having control taken from you and not having to justify yourself.

Setting a precedent that you are willing to action boundaries and not be drawn into explaining or squabbling about them is a major factor in their success. In fact not arguing about boundaries is a good one in itself.

You will not get voluntary compliance over boundaries, otherwise you wouldn't have needed them in the first place

[BestVersionOfMe]

I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation. 

Yes!  I've sometimes thought to myself, "why would I want to have sex with someone who behaves this way?"  Because in spite of her ridiculous behavour on any given day, I'd still be ready to go there sexually if she somehow decided she wanted to.  So yeah, that's probably me being starved for validation and ready to accept whatever validation I could get from her, even and especially sexually.

Interesting feedback that you experience something similar.  I've just gone a long time having unnatural feelings of attraction to my wife.  Likely my own need for validation, with sex being the ultimate form of validation.  So let me ask you this... .  Typically sex is nearly always on her terms, meaning the when.  During things are great and we both know what to do to make ourselves happy.  I agree that she may initiate, but I don't want to go into nice little boy when she does again.  I want to delay it, at least 10 mins, any suggestions?

Sounds like you are saying that the next time she initiates (or somehow "announces" that she's willing to have sex with you), you would make her wait, say 10 minutes, before it's game-on?  That might be an interesting experiment, and it might be satisfying to give her some small taste of the way she has habitually made you wait all these years.  On the other hand, you'd probably want to think twice before stooping to her level... .that does sound a little bit manipulative.  Interesting idea, though - definitely let us know how it goes if you try it. 

Does she know you're prepared to take care of things for yourself when necessary, and how does she feel about that?  (Mine would have a huge meltdown if I announced that.)

On some levels everything is a game.  This is more about building anticipation and being a confident man rather than acting like a puppy that who's owner just said I'm taking you for a walk.  It really is unrelated to BPD, and something more about my own masculinity.  As far as taking care of myself, I am not making an announcement, but I am going to do what I need to do to meet my own needs for now.  I don't think announcement is necessary do you?

[BestVersionOfMe]

requesting she doesn't set the alarm is not a boundary it is a demand. Her ignoring your request is testing to see if you have a boundary.

A boundary require you to do something that is independent of her input to remove the your exposure to the behavior.

Asking her to go into the other room is upping the conflict.

Requesting her to stop is no more than a shot across the bow. You fire one shot only and that YOU need to do something that she has no control over. eg you go move in the other room.

Is it fair? No, but fighting for fair means fighting for control. If you make a decision and action in you retain control.

Most importantly in the bigger picture you set a precedent of not having control taken from you and not having to justify yourself.

Setting a precedent that you are willing to action boundaries and not be drawn into explaining or squabbling about them is a major factor in their success. In fact not arguing about boundaries is a good one in itself.

You will not get voluntary compliance over boundaries, otherwise you wouldn't have needed them in the first place

Ok fair enough, poor choice of words.  I am pushing back with something that bothers me and being very open and honest about it, whereas before I would hold it in till I'd explode.  It is inconsiderate to hit the snooze button repeatedly around another person and she needs to know that so I told her.  In the future I could limit my comments to things like, "It really bothers me when you hit the snooze repeatedly.  It effects my sleep and I don't like it" and then let the chips fall.  Whether it is a boundary or just disrespectful behavior, it bothers me so I will say something.  Just like tonight when she misplaced something and then blamed my daughter for it, I spoke up and said, "She is upset because she is being blamed for something she didn't do and feels frustrated, that's all."  The problem with speaking up like this is that it is very invalidating.  I need practice being able to do both, and admit that I need a lot of help in this regard. 

[waverider]

Speaking up is important. it needs to be done so that it is effective. If you seriously want to change behavior it will need to backed up by a boundary action by you. If it is simply a need to feel like your view has been aired, even if not acted on then that is ok too. Trying to sell your view and having it accommodated, is usually a waste of energy. Better to state it once then either let it go or act on it as a boundary. Just avoid trying to rephrase or justify it. That will take you off on a tangent somewhere

Once you can manage these two reasons for speaking/acting, then it becomes easier to accept and let flow a whole lot of other minor issues. Knowing where to draw the differences is important. It will make it easier for both of you.

The compounding effect of trying to let everything pass completely undermines your own sense of empowerment, as you have found out.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Speaking up is important. it needs to be done so that it is effective. If you seriously want to change behavior it will need to backed up by a boundary action by you. If it is simply a need to feel like your view has been aired, even if not acted on then that is ok too. Trying to sell your view and having it accommodated, is usually a waste of energy. Better to state it once then either let it go or act on it as a boundary. Just avoid trying to rephrase or justify it. That will take you off on a tangent somewhere

Once you can manage these two reasons for speaking/acting, then it becomes easier to accept and let flow a whole lot of other minor issues. Knowing where to draw the differences is important. It will make it easier for both of you.

The compounding effect of trying to let everything pass completely undermines your own sense of empowerment, as you have found out.

Ok how about I shorten even more.  "It bothers me when you hit the snooze 6 or 7 times in a row, can you not do that anymore?  Thanks."

[waverider]

Thats fine.

What happens if she does it again?

Does it bother you enough to do anything about it, or is it enough that you have had your say.?

The goal is to avoid having an unresolved conflict over it that will flow over onto something else.

[Wrongturn1]

This is more about building anticipation and being a confident man rather than acting like a puppy that who's owner just said I'm taking you for a walk.  It really is unrelated to BPD, and something more about my own masculinity.  

I like the swagger... .who would want to be a puppy?  

And I don't see any announcements being necessary about taking care of business solo.  Any reasonable spouse would understand about that being the best alternative if there's not enough physical intimacy in the relationship.

Waverider's boundary distinction is also a good one.  The boundary might be:  "I won't sleep in the same room with someone who presses the snooze button multiple times every morning."  Then you would be the one having to sleep someplace else if she persists in pressing snooze multiple times after you have communicated your boundary.  If you're not willing to sleep someplace else over this, then it's not really a boundary, because boundaries are about what steps you will take to prevent harm to yourself - not rules to control what other people do.  Sometimes the other person will choose to alter their behavior as a result of our boundaries, but that is voluntary on their part.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Thats fine.

What happens if she does it again?

Does it bother you enough to do anything about it, or is it enough that you have had your say.?

The goal is to avoid having an unresolved conflict over it that will flow over onto something else.

Sometimes speaking up is enough.  This morning she got up without hitting snooze repeatedly.  Through experiences like that as well as others I noticed that a lot of the perceived conflict is in my head.  She talks a lot, complains a lot, and asks for a lot of help, but she isn't truly upset if she doesn't get what she wants.  It is like a constant barrage of requests or complaints that come out of a Gatling Gun or something.  But like this morning, she went running and sent me a text that said, "Will be back by 8.  Please get kids up and fed, I will make lunches."  I didn't respond to it, got up at 7 and went in the garage and worked out.  I finished around 8 right when she walked in the door.  She said, "You didn't make lunches?  Its kind of a late start."  I simply said, "I needed to get a work out in before I leave for work."  I went upstairs to shower and she made breakfast and lunches for the kids.  She wasn't mad per se, but she doesn't ask questions, she barks orders and occasionally adds a "please" like this one.  Or she will make statements via text such as, "We need $20 cash for camp for tomorrow."  She doesn't want to deal with it, so she tries to unload things like that on me and I don't know the difference between being helpful or being taken advantage of.  The texting thing is a huge problem and so I continue to discourage it as much as possible by just not responding, or telling her to call me. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

This is more about building anticipation and being a confident man rather than acting like a puppy that who's owner just said I'm taking you for a walk.  It really is unrelated to BPD, and something more about my own masculinity.  

I like the swagger... .who would want to be a puppy?  

And I don't see any announcements being necessary about taking care of business solo.  Any reasonable spouse would understand about that being the best alternative if there's not enough physical intimacy in the relationship.

Waverider's boundary distinction is also a good one.  The boundary might be:  "I won't sleep in the same room with someone who presses the snooze button multiple times every morning."  Then you would be the one having to sleep someplace else if she persists in pressing snooze multiple times after you have communicated your boundary.  If you're not willing to sleep someplace else over this, then it's not really a boundary, because boundaries are about what steps you will take to prevent harm to yourself - not rules to control what other people do.  Sometimes the other person will choose to alter their behavior as a result of our boundaries, but that is voluntary on their part.

Yes I realize that my other statements or requests weren't really boundaries.  I guess it is an overall theme of pushing back so that she handles her own sh*t and stops trying to push it onto me, because then I get resentful.  I have observed her family and I think a lot of it is cultures colliding.  The way that they communicate with each other is very abrasive and rude, yet none of them seem to be bothered by it, it is just what they do.  From my perspective however I find it to be totally out of line, not to mention inefficient in terms of getting what you want from other people. 

[waverider]

Often neediness isn't about the need being asked for, it is about the process of asking for needs to be met. Hence it is transferable to any subject, and actually having the request met or not has little impact. They simply have a knee jerk impulse to ask for things and handball responsibility.

Consistently tring to meet those needs sets a precedent and expectation. Often a simple no, or just ignoring them prevents this. The lack of consistency means what is essential now at the time of asking, has little importance even a short time later, so whether that need was met or not is no longer important to them, as their thoughts are now on something else.

Like everything it is important that you can see for yourself what is important, or not, and make your own call, rather than trying to guess what is important to her. That way we dont simply rebel out of principle, leading to unnecessary conflict. Similar to the way your perception is "she always hits the snooze button" whereas it is only sometimes but it has lodged in your mind as a point of contention.

On the subject of inconsistent annoyances like your example it is hard to have a boundary, as sleeping in the other room is pre emptive in order to address a maybe.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Often neediness isn't about the need being asked for, it is about the process of asking for needs to be met. Hence it is transferable to any subject, and actually having the request met or not has little impact. They simply have a knee jerk impulse to ask for things and handball responsibility.

Consistently tring to meet those needs sets a precedent and expectation. Often a simple no, or just ignoring them prevents this. The lack of consistency means what is essential now at the time of asking, has little importance even a short time later, so whether that need was met or not is no longer important to them, as their thoughts are now on something else.

Like everything it is important that you can see for yourself what is important, or not, and make your own call, rather than trying to guess what is important to her. That way we dont simply rebel out of principle, leading to unnecessary conflict. Similar to the way your perception is "she always hits the snooze button" whereas it is only sometimes but it has lodged in your mind as a point of contention.

On the subject of inconsistent annoyances like your example it is hard to have a boundary, as sleeping in the other room is pre emptive in order to address a maybe.

child

So what you are saying is that it may not be that she has so many needs, it is that she feels compelled to ask for so much in order to repeat her familiar childhood experience of not getting her needs met?  In other words, if she asks for so much, she inevitably will not get many of her needs met. 

[waverider]

Neediness is a process of getting people to do things for you, doesn't matter what it is, but as long as you are getting people to interact and do things for you it validates you. Eventually it just becomes automatic to ask people to do things for you. The needy person also convinces themselves they are incapable of doing anything for themselves.

Its more of a rhetorical action.

Its a bit like a river, you can't stop a river from being a river by adding water to it. It just becomes bigger and your own resources dwindle.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Neediness is a process of getting people to do things for you, doesn't matter what it is, but as long as you are getting people to interact and do things for you it validates you. Eventually it just becomes automatic to ask people to do things for you. The needy person also convinces themselves they are incapable of doing anything for themselves.

Its more of a rhetorical action.

Its a bit like a river, you can't stop a river from being a river by adding water to it. It just becomes bigger and your own resources dwindle.

So the barrage of requests is about feeling validated?  So if someone does something for her, that makes her feel important, needed, wanted?  How about when that request isn't met quickly, the inevitable, "You mean you didn't bring me the widget?" 

[waverider]

How about when that request isn't met quickly, the inevitable, "You mean you didn't bring me the widget?" 

Its not always inevitable, that is our perception, it just feels inevitable.

You will never stop the neediness but you can prevent the expectation that you will always dance to it.

Our task is to work out what is important, and what isn't, regardless of anyone else's agenda.

[Lilyroze]

Great weekend for Father's Day, lots of fun at beach.  She put kids down and immediately go grumpy and a headache which I ignored and did my own thing.  When it comes to validation, I guess I am having a hard time because I don't want to validate things that I don't believe shouldn't be validated which I need to change.  When she comes down and starts complaining about this and that, what should my frame of mind be about her behavior?  When this dramatic complaining begins, inside my head I am saying, "I don't want to hear it.  If you can't get the kids to do what you want them to do then read several parenting books like I have.  If you keep getting headaches throughout each day then go see a doctor or read a book about anxiety to improve things."  Of course she never does anything like that, she is still convinced her various physical ailments are about the food she just ate, the bloating, tummy aches, headaches, forgetfulness, etc.  In any case do you think that she does this grumpy act at night to prevent intimacy between the two of us?  

This morning her alarm went off and I asked her if she was gonna get up and she said yes, and so she did.  Later that morning she came at me again about how she didn't like me asking her if she was gonna get up, etc.  I re-confirmed my stance that I have no issue with the use of her alarm to get up, but I do have an issue of when she hits snooze repeatedly which effects my sleep, and that I need my sleep.  She pushed again and I calmly told her what I need and then it was done.  She wasn't mad or anything after, it is just how she rolls.  

I am not sure if I am allowed to post this here, if not moderators please feel free to mod or delete.

I use to have migraines so bad I was in bed for days ( I am in Natural Health Field by the way but please understand this is not medical advice... .) but once I cut out all MSG ( which is in so many foods) they stopped. One of the main symptoms of MSG is bloated stomach, headaches etc. If she could alleviate that it might make a world of difference for her.

Hope this helps.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

This is really great info on neediness, waverider.  Thank you for sharing.  The river metaphor really resonates:  "you can't stop a river from being a river by adding water to it.  It just becomes bigger while your own resources dwindle."  This is a great reminder that saying no isn't mean.  It is smart. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

How about when that request isn't met quickly, the inevitable, "You mean you didn't bring me the widget?" 

Its not always inevitable, that is our perception, it just feels inevitable.

You will never stop the neediness but you can prevent the expectation that you will always dance to it.

Our task is to work out what is important, and what isn't, regardless of anyone else's agenda.

Yep great point.  I almost don't even feel like I should spend time here and just go back to my journey of self development and discovery.  I have come a long way, but still need to get in touch with my true self and flourish.   Spending time worrying about my wife's journey.  The biggest thing I accomplished by coming back here is to confirm that the subconscious attachment and preoccupation with sex is creating all kinds of problems and petty little fights.  Over the past week or so, it is almost like we are getting to know each other all over again.  Talking a lot.  It was almost like I didn't even know her, yet I was intimately personal with her disorder, tendencies, etc.  There is a real person there, one who really enjoys having conversations with the man she married.  Perhaps the other stuff with slowly come back over time, but for now I think it is time that I get to become more intimate with her true being.  Great advice Waverider!

[BestVersionOfMe]

It is after nights like tonight where I throw away all I've learned, get pissed off and despondent.  Nothing was really dramatic, it is more about the word "no" causing immature behavior and emotional distance in the relationship.  What is it about the word "no" that causes borderlines to act so immature and uninterested in the relationship?  "No, I don't want to put the kids to bed, we agreed on switching off each night."  I held my ground which is great, but at what expense?  Boom!  Then she got really quiet verbally, but began vacuuming, cleaning, and slamming cabinets while going to bed early.  And then there was the question, "will you make sure the house isn't totally destroyed while I'm gone tomorrow morning?"  These are "tests" but the problem is that silence is still a form of a reaction to her cr*p.  So exhausting... .

On another note, it is clear to me that most BPD women that I see examples of on this forum are very needy.  Mine isn't.  She is standoffish and seemingly uninterested in a romantic relationship for the most part.  She has so much going on socially or other that the last thing on her mind is our relationship.  It isn't that we don't have a good time with each other, but it is more that is almost entirely platonic. 

[waverider]

Some pwBPD pack their life with stuff as a way of coping. Sometimes overdoing it, and often trying hard to appear capable as they fear not appearing competent. As that is a kin to not being in control.

A straight "no" is like brick wall. I try to use "I wont be/ dont want to do XYZ". Still wont like it but not as confronting. Liberal reference to "I" almost challenges them to openly try to control you, as opposed to playing the victim to your "no" (by means of deprivation). Keeps you on the moral high ground

[BestVersionOfMe]

Some pwBPD pack their life with stuff as a way of coping. Sometimes overdoing it, and often trying hard to appear capable as they fear not appearing competent. As that is a kin to not being in control.

A straight "no" is like brick wall. I try to use "I wont be/ dont want to do XYZ". Still wont like it but not as confronting. Liberal reference to "I" almost challenges them to openly try to control you, as opposed to playing the victim to your "no" (by means of deprivation). Keeps you on the moral high ground

I think there is a lot of truth to feeling insignificant or incompetent.  In fact she says a lot of things too to "appear" the way she wants.  She talks about cleaning all the time, yet aside from moments of OCD bouts, she rarely really does.  She is a stay at home mom and also talks about how she has been with the kids "all day" and that she is so tired and spent.  The reality is they are in school from 8-3 so she has a solid 5 hour break.  During the summer they are mostly in camps.  She doesn't work, doesn't cook all that often, I do, and is kind of a hoarder, garage is packed.  Now in her defense, I also think that I started to do more myself to appear more in control and "perfect" as well which is my co-dependent side coming out.  As I've backed off again in and putting more time into running my company she has had to step it up and has done a fairly good job.  There are a lot of other things that are blatantly obvious about her behavior that I'm sure she really struggles with such as losing numerous items each day in front of everyone, her keys, her phone, her watch, her various running hats or tops, bills, paperwork, etc.  I'm sure she is embarrassed and it is a blatant indicator of her being disordered even though she has denied any possibility of a disorder.  She has researched Graves Disease, food allergies, done blood work for numerous other physical conditions to explain her tummy issues, headaches, dizziness, forgetfulness, anxiety, and anger.  The reality that she might have a personality disorder is just something she refuses to face at as of this moment just too painful.  On the outside to the outside world she is wonder woman based upon her Facebook account and her many posts which she painstakingly crafts with the skill of a producer.  She has successfully created the illusion of who she would like to be and fooled our entire circle of friends.  Only my immediate family is aware of some of the struggles she and I have faced and about the disorder, so aside from my sister, she has eliminated them from her life.  I guess it pisses me off that we have a pretty decent relationship that is actually improving, yet she is so uninterested in having a romantic sexual relationship.  Ok, got it out of my system!

As far as using the word "I" when I defer her requests I think that is a great tool.  There is a lot of passive language in this house by both of us, but I have become much better.  Her most common thing would be, "I'll have you put the kids to bed."  It drives me crazy and I've better at just saying "no" since in reality it is just a test anyways.  Last night I challenged her outright when she told all three kids, "You're gonna finish your dinner and then read for 10 mins."  I said, "You know honey, people really don't like being told what to do, will you just ask the kids to do things with a please and thank you moving forward?"  She grumbled but complied.  Then when she made the comment, "can you make sure the house isn't destroyed while I'm gone tomorrow morning", I ignored her.  She kept pushing so finally I said, "I'm just not going to acknowledge comments like that."  Between that and me refusing to put the kids down for her there was nearly all silence for the rest of the night and she went to bed early.  Usually when this happens she gets resentful the next day and gets a combative type of attitude with me about stupid little things.  She gets demanding and starts telling me all the things we "need" to pay for.  I think this is her attempt to try and make herself feel superior to me if we can't pay for every single thing the house needs.  I just ignore it.  I swear, if you don't live with someone with this disorder and I began explaining to someone what happens I don't think they would even believe it or understand it.  It literally doesn't make much sense. 

[waverider]

I swear, if you don't live with someone with this disorder and I began explaining to someone what happens I don't think they would even believe it or understand it.  It literally doesn't make much sense. 

This is why few people, outside of someone who has lived with it, can pick up on the disorder and why high functioning pwBPD can maintain the "perfect" facade, as they can seem more capable than the average person, and people can actually admire them. Which is the sort of validation that sustains them. making you look even less appreciative and critical in comparison.

" Why can't you tell me i am superwoman/man like others do?"