Been at it for so long - I

[BestVersionOfMe]

I swear, if you don't live with someone with this disorder and I began explaining to someone what happens I don't think they would even believe it or understand it.  It literally doesn't make much sense. 

This is why few people, outside of someone who has lived with it, can pick up on the disorder and why high functioning pwBPD can maintain the "perfect" facade, as they can seem more capable than the average person, and people can actually admire them. Which is the sort of validation that sustains them. making you look even less appreciative and critical in comparison.

" Why can't you tell me i am superwoman/man like others do?"

I'm hearing it right now, she just can't handle the kids making a bit of noise, or the dog following her around.  If anyone else that knows us saw this, they'd be surprised for sure.  With that being said, it has nothing to do with me so I'm gonna post a bit and relax.  The melt downs aren't epic, but just enough to cause irritation throughout the house and of course to prevent intimacy between the two of us.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

If there are intimacy issues she may need that continuous low level conflict to provide a reason why, in order to avoid the real issue, maybe?

[BestVersionOfMe]

If there are intimacy issues she may need that continuous low level conflict to provide a reason why, in order to avoid the real issue, maybe?

Quite possibly to avoid my push for sex which has been a relentless push and struggle issue for me for so long.  Our last major fight was about that topic and so I think she is holding on to that for control and is waiting for the inevitable push.  This is the first time I've committed to backing off on the sex thing however so it might take her some time before she truly feels relaxed about the pressure for sex.  And yes she has intimacy issues, always has.  Has no need for affection, touch, etc.  Uncomfortable with kissing and hugs.  I've been blowing up every few months consistently for years so I think she is likely always on alert for the next time I get fed up and come after her.  I'm committed to refraining from such pointless fights and being more open and honest about how I feel at times.  Things are better, but it is frustrating having this beautiful woman sleep next to me each night and not have an intimate and romantic relationship with her.

[waverider]

Things are better, but it is frustrating having this beautiful woman sleep next to me each night and not have an intimate and romantic relationship with her.

I experienced that in a previous relationship once. Like having a Ferrari in the drive with a seized engine. Everyone was jealous, but there was no benefit to me.

Intimacy is an issue with my wife at the moment, but that is a consequence of body image following a masectomy after breast cancer. Frustrating but more understandable.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Things are better, but it is frustrating having this beautiful woman sleep next to me each night and not have an intimate and romantic relationship with her.

I experienced that in a previous relationship once. Like having a Ferrari in the drive with a seized engine. Everyone was jealous, but there was no benefit to me.

Intimacy is an issue with my wife at the moment, but that is a consequence of body image following a masectomy after breast cancer. Frustrating but more understandable.

Yeah good way to put it.  Mine has body image issues too, but hers aren't really healthy ones if there is such a thing.  I can see your wife feeling insecure about her body after something like that.  But it isn't just the lack of sex per se, as much as it is the indifference about having a romantic relationship in the first place.  Unlike many stories on here, my wife is not needy in the sense that she worries that I'm cheating on her or that I'm gonna leave her, but I think that is a reflection of how much I chased for so long.  Rather than chasing, which is super unattractive, I am focusing on growing my company and finding myself again.  It'll be better for both of us. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Does anyone have a BPD loved one that obsessively works out?  Mine might run 7-8 miles in the morning, and then do an hour long cardio class middle of the day or around dinner time.  Sometimes she will do the trifecta and work out three times.  She complains about being tired all the time and usually goes to bed early which kills intimacy obviously.  I don't know if the obsessive exercising is her way of feeling normal and productive, or if it is a self-punishment thing, but it is odd to say the least.  I don't know if I am irritated because she isn't spending that time with me, or because she makes excuses as to why she has no time to get things done around the house constantly, or feels "rushed."  In the past my response would be, "You know, if you didn't run for two hours, then you might have more time to get your to do list done and not feel so rushed."   She won't have it.  I realize I encourage other people not to obsess over their BPD loved one's behaviors, but I guess for me I just want to get a feel for what is happening since it is so bizarre.  Just now like clock work she said she couldn't keep her eyes open and went upstairs.  I was also looking at her facebook posts. The comments she gets is how she is such an amazing mom, super fit, that she does everything, and that they are so inspired by her.  If they only knew the truth behind it all.  She has succeeded in creating the image of herself that she wants and Facebook is how she does it.  No wonder she won't accept that she might have some issues.  In her mind how could it even be possible?

[waverider]

Mine has had this obsession at various stages of her life. Now she would'nt even walk to the letter box.

2 reasons she did it in the past, first when she was young it was a way of compensating for her other "failures" so she had to be extremely fit to prove her  worth to herself, enough was never enough.

The other time was when we first met and she was in the idealization phase and mirroring me, but adding a bit to prove a point, in the all or nothing black and white way.

If you cant control the mind you can compensate by controlling the body

[BestVersionOfMe]

Mine has had this obsession at various stages of her life. Now she would'nt even walk to the letter box.

2 reasons she did it in the past, first when she was young it was a way of compensating for her other "failures" so she had to be extremely fit to prove her  worth to herself, enough was never enough.

The other time was when we first met and she was in the idealization phase and mirroring me, but adding a bit to prove a point, in the all or nothing black and white way.

If you cant control the mind you can compensate by controlling the body

No surprises her.  I guess I already knew this, just trolling for validation.  Thanks waverider!

[BestVersionOfMe]

Mine has had this obsession at various stages of her life. Now she would'nt even walk to the letter box.

2 reasons she did it in the past, first when she was young it was a way of compensating for her other "failures" so she had to be extremely fit to prove her  worth to herself, enough was never enough.

The other time was when we first met and she was in the idealization phase and mirroring me, but adding a bit to prove a point, in the all or nothing black and white way.

If you cant control the mind you can compensate by controlling the body

She just signed up for a 50 mile race in November.  I told her I was all for it, provided that it wasn't impacting her responsibilities here at home, ie. getting home late when I have somewhere to be for work. 

No surprises her.  I guess I already knew this, just trolling for validation.  Thanks waverider!

[BestVersionOfMe]

Ok so wife is so clearly withdrawn and distant.  As I read post after post on this site I consistently see the fear of abandonment being the dominant theme in nearly all relationships. I am experiencing something entirely different in my current relationship with my udBPD wife.  She seems uninterested in intimacy and frankly not interested in me at all.  She displays so many characteristics of someone with BPD, but she also displays many characteristics that she just has a lot of interests.  She was very quiet last night and this morning grumpy and quiet as well.  She is going on a long run with a few friends and is being somewhat argumentative about going to the beach with the kids.  She doesn't want to commit to anything apparently.  In addition, I was sitting down having my coffee and she asked me if I'd go get her ipod out of the car for her since she was in her robe.  I said, "sure after I'm done with my coffee."  After about 5 mins she went out and got it herself.  I realize these are tests, but the problem with passing these tests is that she withdraws even further.  What I am left with is the ongoing dynamic of push/pull and I never know if what she really needs is my affection and consistent display of love or for me to just pursue my own interests and eventually have her pursue me.  I know I can't make her do anything but I'm feeling frustrated because despite knowing this disorder inside and out, I simply don't know what is happening and why so I am starting to question this dynamic between us entirely.  I've gone the route of exploring affairs, lack of attraction to me, libido issues, intimacy issues, and more but I have yet to put my finger on it.  Nothing makes any sense.  What I do know is that she isn't interested in affection, sex, or anything romantic of any sort.  Her interests are in obsessively running, facebook post liking(also obsessive), working out, group texting with her girlfriends, and pretty much just being away from the kids and I as much as possible.  She appears confident at times, especially in the relationship showing a superiority with me, yet at other times complete inadequacy.  What I am left with is a guy that has three life coaches, has read 60-70 books on BPD and personal development over the past 3-4 years, who is totally and utterly confused, frustrated, and exhausted.  Any insight to helping me understand the situation would be soo appreciated. 

[teapay]

The only terms I've been able to understand my W's behavior, thinking and moods is that of mental illness, and brain damage.  There is a brain at work, but it's not putting things together in an mature rational way that we normally expect from health adults.  Rather it is churning and being swept away by strong emotions and related thoughts.  Alot of the inexplicable behavior is being done to quench these strong emotions.  Almost like an animal in search of relief.  It would occur with or without a non involved, although r/s provide additional fodder for it.  Beyond that it is probably futile to try to understand further.  To do so can just suck us into the stream of madness and put us on the crazy train too.  Better to redirect to myself and make sure my "self" and life is in best order whatever the context and continue to make it better.

[waverider]

  Any insight to helping me understand the situation would be soo appreciated. 

She will probably never be content with wherever she is, always looking for the "magic pill". This is in the form of excessive interests. Activity gives our life a purpose, so more activity makes us essential and validated as being worthwhile. Many business leaders are high functioning BPD, not all are making a mess of their ability to function.

Likewise do not fill your life with the endless pursuit of the answer to it all, that becomes your chase for the "magic pill'. It can do your head in as much as the disorder itself.

If I were you I would cut back on the research and just focus on helping others here, as that helps consolidate things for you and provides reward at the same time. Part of the transition from survive to thrive.

I dont think the ipod thing was a test, more likely the requirement for instant gratification.  To test you she needs to be curious about you.

[BestVersionOfMe]

  Any insight to helping me understand the situation would be soo appreciated. 

She will probably never be content with wherever she is, always looking for the "magic pill". This is in the form of excessive interests. Activity gives our life a purpose, so more activity makes us essential and validated as being worthwhile. Many business leaders are high functioning BPD, not all are making a mess of their ability to function.

Likewise do not fill your life with the endless pursuit of the answer to it all, that becomes your chase for the "magic pill'. It can do your head in as much as the disorder itself.

If I were you I would cut back on the research and just focus on helping others here, as that helps consolidate things for you and provides reward at the same time. Part of the transition from survive to thrive.

I dont think the ipod thing was a test, more likely the requirement for instant gratification.  To test you she needs to be curious about you.

I hear you, and I don't think I want a magic pill, I guess I am baffled at her indifference.  Its not like we are fighting like cats and dogs or that she is disregulated all the time.  She is really quite functional.  It is almost like the better our communication gets, and the better I am at being less reactive to her, the more she distances herself from the family.  It's almost like she is single and very active, yet she has this thing called a family that gets in the way.  I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me:

"Borderlines can be completely devoid of any sensitivity as to how their behavior affects others. Because they are deep into their own worlds, there is very little, if any, capacity for caring about how others may feel towards their interpersonally and emotionally insensitive behaviors. For example, a female BP seems to be intermittently and cyclically at war with an intimate partner and is never quite aware of how she influences and drives him to extreme anger and even destructive rage. The partner may have to explore the depths and range of his own Pain and rage just to become less reactive to the borderline's destructiveness. If that does not work, then complete and total withdrawal from the relationship becomes the only open choice. The borderline is capable of provoking a partner into exploring the depths of hell and the heights of transcendent heaven. This occurs because the borderline lives in the realms of extreme emotional swings, instability, and contradictions."

In other words, as I got better at dealing with her behavior, the wars began to become less frequent.  So it is possible that the withdrawing is the Plan B mechanism because I won't engage in doing battle with her.  The indifference is because she is obtuse about how her withdrawing affects me. 

[waverider]

I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me

Probably the type of peaceful avoidance type relationships often grow into mutual indifference without BPD being flagged, and without the typical crisis situation that brings people here looking for help.  It probably is quite common, and likely a common reason relationship dissolve for no apparent interest other than lack of common ground.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me

Probably the type of peaceful avoidance type relationships often grow into mutual indifference without BPD being flagged, and without the typical crisis situation that brings people here looking for help.  It probably is quite common, and likely a common reason relationship dissolve for no apparent interest other than lack of common ground.

Had a small moment that might provide some clarity.  The kids are not in school and my wife repeatedly tells my son not to get up in the morning and immediately get on his Ipad or other video games.  Most morning he ignores her and does it anyways.  The general theme is that my wife communicates in ways that are demanding and disrespectful to get the kids to do what she wants.  In other word she nags.  The kids don't respond to her and tune her out frequently because they have built up quite a bit of resent about it.  The 5 year old has figured out that if she whines or throws a fit that frequently my wife will simply not deal with it, try and divert it to me, or give in.  So the ongoing dynamic is that I end up in the middle.  I am trying to balance out trying to help my wife get her needs met, and for the most they are legitimate, and the kids who resent their mom.  There are times where I will stick up for the kids and let my wife know that the kids don't like the way she talks to them.  Nobody is budging.  My wife refuses to be respectful when communicating with the kids and the kids refuse to comply, at least not immediately, with her demands.  As a result my wife spends more and more time away from the family running, exercising, or hanging with friends because she can't handle it, and of course my sticking up for the kids comes back as direct criticism which causes a rift in our relationship.  She told me before she left for another two hour run, "I get no help from you."  So she just wants to be heard, but nobody wants to listen because she is downright rude, demanding, and disrespectful.  Part of this isn't BPD, part of this is a cultural difference.  My wife's culture is different from mine and listening to the vast majority of her extended family communicate, they tend to be way more harsh than most.  In other words, that is just how they roll.  Sometimes the kids and I want to relax rather than to be bombarded with demands yet in my wife's defense, if they would clean their rooms, put away their toys, or do things right the first time, then she wouldn't have to stop them mid-stream in whatever they are doing, to run upstairs.  The wife resents the kids because they don't cooperate with her, the wife resents the husband because he doesn't always take her side and pushes back at times when I feel she crossed the line, the kids resent the mom because of how she communicates with them, and the husband resents the wife because she is indifferent and uninterested in having a romantic relationship.  The only healthy relationship in the house is between the father and the three children. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

I did find some quotes that this is quite normal however, yet not as common on this forum it seems to me

Probably the type of peaceful avoidance type relationships often grow into mutual indifference without BPD being flagged, and without the typical crisis situation that brings people here looking for help.  It probably is quite common, and likely a common reason relationship dissolve for no apparent interest other than lack of common ground.

Had a small moment that might provide some clarity.  The kids are not in school and my wife repeatedly tells my son not to get up in the morning and immediately get on his Ipad or other video games.  Most morning he ignores her and does it anyways.  The general theme is that my wife communicates in ways that are demanding and disrespectful to get the kids to do what she wants.  In other word she nags.  The kids don't respond to her and tune her out frequently because they have built up quite a bit of resent about it.  The 5 year old has figured out that if she whines or throws a fit that frequently my wife will simply not deal with it, try and divert it to me, or give in.  So the ongoing dynamic is that I end up in the middle.  I am trying to balance out trying to help my wife get her needs met, and for the most they are legitimate, and the kids who resent their mom.  There are times where I will stick up for the kids and let my wife know that the kids don't like the way she talks to them.  Nobody is budging.  My wife refuses to be respectful when communicating with the kids and the kids refuse to comply, at least not immediately, with her demands.  As a result my wife spends more and more time away from the family running, exercising, or hanging with friends because she can't handle it, and of course my sticking up for the kids comes back as direct criticism which causes a rift in our relationship.  She told me before she left for another two hour run, "I get no help from you."  So she just wants to be heard, but nobody wants to listen because she is downright rude, demanding, and disrespectful.  Part of this isn't BPD, part of this is a cultural difference.  My wife's culture is different from mine and listening to the vast majority of her extended family communicate, they tend to be way more harsh than most.  In other words, that is just how they roll.  Sometimes the kids and I want to relax rather than to be bombarded with demands yet in my wife's defense, if they would clean their rooms, put away their toys, or do things right the first time, then she wouldn't have to stop them mid-stream in whatever they are doing, to run upstairs.  The wife resents the kids because they don't cooperate with her, the wife resents the husband because he doesn't always take her side and pushes back at times when I feel she crossed the line, the kids resent the mom because of how she communicates with them, and the husband resents the wife because she is indifferent and uninterested in having a romantic relationship.  The only healthy relationship in the house is between the father and the three children. 

I led a family discussion about communication revolving around the kids not listening as well as my wife's roll in that and that the entire thing feeds into each others reactions.  The kids get more resentful and therefore listen less and ignore more which means my wife gets even more demanding and disrespectful, which leads to more of the same.  Then I get fed up and jump in, which invalidates her even further.  She didn't have a great reaction to the plan but at least she said "Ok, that's fine."  At least we are all talking rather than never dealing with things that bother each other. 

[waverider]

This is the essence of dysfunction regardless of the cause, behaving in a way that is counter to getting a result, then persisting with it and not adapting to more productive ways.

It is the fear, and perception, of criticism that generally holds pwBPD to this path. All or nothing, if thy admit their ways are not working then they are admitting to being a total failure, and that is not an option. If they cant admit failure, then the lack of results has to be someone else's fault.

As you found you end up being stuck in the middle being totally inconsistent trying to help but actually fuelling it.

Not "having their back" is a common claim. The problem is they dont always tell it straight. So I make a point of only reacting to what I see or hear. I will not back my wife up on things i was not witness to merely on her say so. Otherwise i will get played. Its a shame, but it is the only way I can stay consistent

[BestVersionOfMe]

This is the essence of dysfunction regardless of the cause, behaving in a way that is counter to getting a result, then persisting with it and not adapting to more productive ways.

It is the fear, and perception, of criticism that generally holds pwBPD to this path. All or nothing, if thy admit their ways are not working then they are admitting to being a total failure, and that is not an option. If they cant admit failure, then the lack of results has to be someone else's fault.

As you found you end up being stuck in the middle being totally inconsistent trying to help but actually fuelling it.

Not "having their back" is a common claim. The problem is they dont always tell it straight. So I make a point of only reacting to what I see or hear. I will not back my wife up on things i was not witness to merely on her say so. Otherwise i will get played. Its a shame, but it is the only way I can stay consistent

So do you call your wife out every single time provided that you witnessed it or heard it first hand?  It's not like I don't hear other nagging wives or husbands in the community, it is pervasive in our culture for sure, but the resent is building with the kids and the wife is getting more frustrated than ever which is why she wants to take her long runs.  Overpowering others is her game plan and I think it makes her feel powerful, at least a false sense of power, not the real kind.  She even yells at the dog loudly to get her to like down in her bed when she is begging, even though she watches me not say a word and have her lie down with just a hand movement.  When we do talk we have great eye contact which is unusual I heard in people with BPD.  She looks away first but not after locking eyes for a good while.  I also find her to be incredibly determined as a person at times as it relates to herself, or with running races, or even something as simple as spending a ton of time going after just the right restaurant. 

[waverider]

Life is probably an endless challenge to her, not so much to win and be right, but more so a desire not to lose and be seen not to be wrong. Same result but the motivation is different.

I only call her out if she is directly trying to tell me what my reality is. If she is just distributing her skewed reality, I just let it slide. For example if she says 'you never help me" I ignore it. That is her reality not mine. If she says "you think XYZ", I will say they are not my thoughts at all. If she persists, i shrug it off i have said my piece, dont need tro argue about it.

if she says the kids did this or that, then its not my problem and wont take sides. Can be seen as not being supportive, but I am not willing to do that on what could be (probably is) flimsy evidence. That is how you get triangulated, by either party.

Of course I am human like anyone else and sometimes I will get angry, or even lose it. But I realize it straight away and so dont compound it with escalation. A it happens infrequently now she often is too stunned by it to escalate as long as I dont. I am putting this down to the reason being she is not primed for a conflict as she is not expecting one any more.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Life is probably an endless challenge to her, not so much to win and be right, but more so a desire not to lose and be seen not to be wrong. Same result but the motivation is different.

I only call her out if she is directly trying to tell me what my reality is. If she is just distributing her skewed reality, I just let it slide. For example if she says 'you never help me" I ignore it. That is her reality not mine. If she says "you think XYZ", I will say they are not my thoughts at all. If she persists, i shrug it off i have said my piece, dont need tro argue about it.

if she says the kids did this or that, then its not my problem and wont take sides. Can be seen as not being supportive, but I am not willing to do that on what could be (probably is) flimsy evidence. That is how you get triangulated, by either party.

Of course I am human like anyone else and sometimes I will get angry, or even lose it. But I realize it straight away and so dont compound it with escalation. A it happens infrequently now she often is too stunned by it to escalate as long as I dont. I am putting this down to the reason being she is not primed for a conflict as she is not expecting one any more.

I hear you.  In an effort to not initiate affection or pursue the sexual relationship I want I realized I have been purposely withholding affection myself.  I'm going to stop doing that.  I am going to do what feels good to me and just work on being less reactive when she is non-receptive.  Indifference is the goal for me.  I realized that withholding something she needs and wants is abusive too, so I don't think I can justify it, besides I need and want occasional kisses or bodily contact.  As far as the dynamic of the communication for us all, I am gonna go above and beyond in setting the standard as my primary method of encouraging everyone.  Lot of praise for the kids when they do things on their own without being asked, or respond rather than ignoring.  Same with wife, lots of praise her way. 

[once removed]

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