This is me (narcissttic) and my husband (BPD). What do I do

[uniquename]

The Narcissistic and Borderline Couple: Implications for Mediation

I have tentatively diagnosed these individuals within a particular relationship as the "Narcissistic/Borderline Couple," and have attempted to describe their qualitative differences (1984,1985). Many authors have noted difficulty and endless confusion in diagnosing and differentiating between them (Kohut, 1977,1971; Kernberg, 1975; Grotstein, 1980,1981,1 983; Masterson, 1981, et al.). Part of the confusion is that it is not clear whether they are truly narcissistic or borderline, whether they merely exhibit a certain vulnerability toward these disorders, or if certain individuals tend to bring out narcissistic/borderline defenses in the other when they are together and under particular circumstances. In addition, certain "states" and "traits" may tend to vacillate back and forth so that it is hard to tell at times which partner is the borderline and which is the narcissist. Nevertheless, the effort here is to seek out what it is that bonds/binds and attracts such individuals together and describe the basic characteristics so that court-connected officials, mediators, counselors and other personnel can readily recognize and safeguard against their danger signs.

The first thing I look for are interactions which are like a dance--on-going, circular, and never-ending (The DOLOOP)--to see what it is that perpetuates their conflict. Next, I ask myself what is the most pervasive feature or the most dominant trait of each partner. The borderline tends to be dominated mostly by abandonment fears, and the narcissistic person, by fear of the loss of specialness or appreciation. The borderline is the one who searches for those to bond with. When the promise of that bond is threatened, the borderline responds with blame and attack defenses. Any reminder or hint of abandonment or separation may arouse the need to "get back/get even," to "teach the other a lesson." The narcissist is the one who most often tends to withdraw, fears a loss of specialness, easily becomes injured or outraged by another when not properly mirrored or understood, and often has an exaggerated sense of entitlement. The narcissist seeks out others to confirm his feelings of entitlement. This need for mirroring seems to be the main clue that the person may be more inclined 'toward narcissistic organization. These differences may be explained in the following way: visitation rights, custody or child support payments may be withheld or battled by the narcissist out of exaggerated entitlement fantasies, feeling their children are more inclined to need them more than the other; whereas the borderline desires to withhold/battle in order to "get even" or "teach the other a lesson" (blame/attack mechanisms).

This is me (narcissttic need for affirmation, lack of empathy) and my husband (BPD traits and abandonment issues). He just attempted suicide last week and inexplicably (to me) involved our 16yo daughter as a go-between. My reaction has been withdrawal. Not letting him come home while he goes through IOP (intensive outpatient therapy). I'm not convinced I'm full NPD nor that he is full BPD but this is us. I instinctively wanted to start couples therapy immediately on his release from the mental health unit following his attempt and was told not to do that by his case worker - that we needed individual therapy first. The way I read this, we should be doing couples therapy along with the individual. Now that I read this and am positive this is us, what the heck do I do?

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Reforming]

Hi uniquename


I'm really sorry to hear that things are so tough right now. Attempted suicide of a loved one is incredibly traumatic.

I found Lacklar's book very interesting and insightful. It opened my eyes to some of the dynamics in disordered relationship.

I think quite of few of us have some narcissistic traits to some degree, but it's a spectrum and very few of us exhibit enough traits to qualify for NPD or BPD diagnosis.  I also think that some of these behavioural traits, BPD and NPD can become stronger in certain relationships. Something which Lacklar explores very well. From what I remember of her book she advocated couples counselling as a route to individual therapy - I may well be wrong on this. But in your current circumstances your husband's case worker may feel that as his current condition is very acute and he needs to get specialist care to stabilise him before he's ready for couple's counselling. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

Are you seeing a therapist at the moment? Given everything you're dealing it's very reasonable to seek some professional support. When things have settled down you could reconsider couples therapy…

Keep posting

Reforming

[uniquename]

I have started seeing a therapist. We had our first appointment last Tuesday and are scheduled for the next one Friday. I asked if she could move it up but no luck so far. (She's been trying though.) I sent an email to Dr. Lachkar in the meantime asking the next step. We have a phone consult set up for tomorrow night. Lol. That's narcissism right there!

[Reforming]

I have started seeing a therapist. We had our first appointment last Tuesday and are scheduled for the next one Friday. I asked if she could move it up but no luck so far. (She's been trying though.) I sent an email to Dr. Lachkar in the meantime asking the next step. We have a phone consult set up for tomorrow night. Lol. That's narcissism right there!

Hi Unique,

It's great that your seeing a T. Nothing wrong with consulting Dr Lachkar. It's hard to find a good T who is a good fit and her book offers a rare window into her working methods.

I think if you were high on the Narcissism scale you wouldn't even be questioning contacting her, you probably wouldn't be contacting her at all. From what I've read most narcissists believe there's nothing wrong with them and rarely seek therapy.

You have a lot to deal with right now, try and be gentle on yourself. You deserve compassion and support

Keep posting

Reforming

[uniquename]

Thanks. Getting this reply a lot. I am definitely not high on the NP scale. Just some traits. On one online test I came out similar to average celebrity but not very high.

I am very confused and insecure in my decisions and I'm smart and introspective enough to realize that when someone who wants to provide me with emotional support tells me that I'm doing what I should be doing and don't be hard on myself, I don't necessarily believe them. I am fully aware that I am messed up at this point. Yes, I am confident I am much less messed up than him, but it's hard not to question my every move.

Right now, my H turned off his phone and I started shaking and crying worried. I texted him and it showed not delivered. As I write this, he texted me back. Turned off his phone cause his mind was racing last night and it wasn't helping to look at stuff, worried he'd text me unhealthy stuff. He went to the gym this morning and then turned the phone back on. We had a good talk. This s*it is hard.

[Reforming]

Hi unique

Hope you're ok. How did your consult go with Dr Lachkar go?

Reforming

[BestVersionOfMe]

I'm so sorry about your situation, it sounds like you are in a tough spot.  Couples therapy sometimes is unproductive if either or both are disordered.  Couples therapists are trained in communication, validation, etc.  In my experience, they can often be over their heads in knowing what do with disordered thinking patterns.  I personally gave up on couples therapy because we just went around and around and really never accomplished anything.  People with BPD don't know who they are and they really for the most part don't know what they believe.  They often makes statements such as "Well I'm not really comfortable with that" without actually explaining why.  In couples therapy that is a recipe for going nowhere.  I'd let his own outpatient therapy run it's course and focus on your own issues to become the best possible version of yourself. 

[uniquename]

Thanks for the advice. The consult wasn't great. I thought she was going to give me an idea as to whether I was headed in the right direction and how to proceed with treatment going forward. Instead it was more like a regular session with my current therapist. She was a bit more pushy though. I guess it was worthwhile as it eased my mind when I couldn't move up my therapist's appointment but it felt unnecessary after the fact.

Since then, my H accused me of being a narcissist and psychotic for being scared of him. That blew my mind. I found out he said same to my immediate family members - told them that about me. This was after he didn't respect my boundaries and came to our house demanding I bring him some things from inside or letting him in. I was really afraid he was going to get violent. I'm starting to understand why people are cautioning me against labeling myself (or him).

I am joining his individual therapy today for the first time. I had asked for that often with his prior therapist so I'm glad to get the opportunity but I'm also feeling anxious I'll be attacked.

[Reforming]

Hi Unique,

I'm sorry to hear that the consult didn't go as well as you hoped. Finding the right therapist can take a lot of persistence and courage and good marriage counselling can be even harder to find. Please don't let the experience discourage you from your search and don't be afraid to push back if you feel a therapist isn't a good fit for you.

Insist on an initial consult and have a list of questions ready. If you're looking for couples counselling find someone who specialises in that area and who has real experience

Have you considered exploring schema therapy? I found it very helpful and if I'd known about during my relationship I would have gone in that direction much sooner. It was developed to treat a broad spectrum of personality disorders and it encompasses couples therapy too. If you're interested it's worth checking out the website which lists qualified therapists all over the world

isstonline.com/node/195

A lot of therapists avoid using labels like narcissist or borderline because of the very issues you mentioned. Apart from the stigma of a diagnosis there's the real danger that either partner can end up using it as weapon during conflict.

I can understand why you might feel apprehension about joining his session. It might be worth expressing your concerns to his T at the start of the session. Even though his treatment is their priority they should recognise the importance of creating a safe place for discussion for both of you. It might also help to have a clear idea of what you hope to accomplish by joining the session

Good luck and keep posting.

Reforming