Gas-lighting or not.

[mssalty]

My SO has a habit of telling me they said something that I have no recollection of hearing and think to myself "if I'd have heard that, I'd remember."   I am not going to lie and say I don't tune out at times, but it is frustrating because I can't go back and relive something I don't remember, and  it's hard to prove something was or wasn't said.   The worst part is that my SO insists I don't listen, and so any misunderstandings are my fault.   

So how do you handle it when a reality is shared that you can't prove is wrong, but you have no recollection of hearing or being a witness to?   

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Hmcbart]

I started taking notes several years ago.  That way I can go back and look to make sure I am not crazy and what was said versus what what heard.  I started doing this because I thought I was loosing my mind and remembering events differently than she did.  Turns out I wasn't losing my mind (mostly).  I still tune out a lot of things but remember more than she thinks I do.  She still doesn't believe any other version things other than her own, but for my sanity it helped. 

I pulled them out in MC once when we were discussing what I say versus what she hears.  I got told I was tracking her every word and basically made to feel wrong for doing it.  I still do it but I don't bring it up anymore. 

I'm up to 500+ pages of notes that prove to myself I'm not "completely" nuts. 

[Icanteven]

So how do you handle it when a reality is shared that you can't prove is wrong, but you have no recollection of hearing or being a witness to?   

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are being manipulated.  Here's how I've been able to spot it in my own relationship:

1)  My wife will tell me stories, forget that she has told me the story, then tell me the story again six months later and be shocked when I tell her the ending because she has forgotten she told me already.  Yet, she claims to have perfect recall of discussions/arguments (she does not);

2)  I can say with my hand to god that I've never verbally abused my wife in the entire history of our marriage; after she left, she claimed that I called her the b word in a drunken argument.  "Which argument?" I asked.  She told me of the one, and I reminded her that I was sober and that SHE was the one who drove home drunk and went on a verbal tirade against ME, to which she responded "well I felt like you called me a b even if you didn't say it" and then changed the subject and moved the goalposts.  Changing the subject, moving the goalposts, not wanting to "rehash" discussions for which she knows she doesn't have a leg to stand on; all are dead giveaways to me that she's invented her own reality;

3)  I was told that, in fact, I was the source of one of her mental illnesses.  Think about that for a second:  in her mind, I CAUSED a mental illness.  Nevermind that when we went to the psychiatrist together for the first time years ago said P told me of her history of mental illness and that it had been diagnosed five years before she ever met me.  Never mind that when it reared its ugly head again at the end of our marriage it manifested itself in her therapist's office just as it did at home just as it did when she was with her girlfriends just as it did when I wasn't even around.  It was my fault.  Do you have any instances where you think, wait a second, there's no way that can even possibly be true? I sure as hell do.

The worst part is that I didn't know what gaslighting was until she left and I got into therapy.  For example, years ago she confessed to an affair that occurred while we were just dating and she managed to convince me that it wasn't really cheating.  Nevermind that we de facto lived together, had unprotected sex, said I love you to each other, etc; she didn't think of me as her boyfriend at the time so it didn't really count.  I could tell three dozen of those kind of stories.

You're human, so your memory is gonna be a little hazy from time to time no matter what; sometimes I don't remember and I'll own up because it's not worth the argument.  But, if you find yourself in any of the situations I described it's a decent bet you're being manipulated.

[MaybeSo]

The term gas lighting is from a movie where the husband is purposefully denying the wife's reality with full knowledge and intent of making her look and feel insane so that she would be committed to an institution thus allowing him to take control of her estate.

A typical form of actual gas lighting that does occur in relationships at times is when a partner is having an affair, is aware and purposeful about their affair, is aware and purposeful about hiding it and distracting their partner from the reality of the affair, and one way they choose to accomplish this is they tell their suspicious spouse that there is nothing going on and that their suspicions are so ungrounded in reality that they should really seek medical care because their suspicions suggest they are delusional.  This suggestion to a spouse that they are insane to suspect an affair might be happening... .as a c form of distraction when an affair really IS happening, is a classic and real form of "gas lighting".  There is no memory consolidation problem here, the person is aware and clear about their affair.  There is no difference in values being argued about... .it is just one person who is fully aware of what they are doing, purposefully and with intent, trying to make another person question their reality to the point of feeling crazy... .and doing so for their own very conscious and very well thought out intentional selfish gain, in this case get away with the affair a little longer.  It is done with awareness and intent to inflict distress on the victim because doing so creates an advantage for the perpetrator in some clear and tangible way.  It definitely gas lighting when it is suggested that you are insane and the intent is to steal your money, get you off the correct track, or take advantage of you in some very tangible and intended way.  One person on this board felt that their partner was intentionally moving things around the house and then denying it, with the intent of making her feel crazy when she asked about the moved objects... .though it's not clear what the pay off was... .perhaps just to cause anxious distress.  I think this would also be a form of gas lighting.

Memory issues are complex. Most of us overestimate how good our memory is.  Trauma and long term stress affects memory greatly.  Police depts. now get specialized training in the neuroscience of trauma and memory consolidation because of the work they do with rape victims and other trauma survivors.

As for memory recall, because memory is so poor so often, sometimes it's best to just stick with "hmmm, my memory of what happened is quite different than yours"  or "I have no memory of you sharing that" and leave it at that.  Making lists/notes can always help with memory issues, and if you are aware that you tend to tune-out (not listen) when your partner is talking... .it's quite possible you didn't hear some of what is being said in a way that allows for recall.  When we tune out or dissociate... .the dumb recorder part of the brain can pick it up and record it as background white noise bla bla bla... .but it likely never got consolidated in a way that would allow you to recall it because it wasn't attended to in that way.  You would have to pay attention and be in active listening mode for that kind of recall to work optimally. 

What if she thought she told you and her memory is not so good and she really didn't say anything? 

And you aren't paying very close attention so you can't remember either?

Hmmm... .this happens all the time, too.  It's very common.  I'm not sure it has to be viewed as gas lighting, which is usually something that a person is doing with full awareness, is malicious and intentional with a specific pay off in mind.   

These things happen all the time.  Stress, trauma, aging... .memory is an elusive thing. 

[Herodias]

"Hmmm... .this happens all the time, too.  It's very common.  I'm not sure it has to be viewed as gas lighting, which is usually something that a person is doing with full awareness, is malicious and intentional with a specific pay off in mind."

But that does happen. Mine did this to me all the time... .accusing me of having dementia. Trying to make me feel old. Sometimes it is on purpose. I agree about just saying I don't remember it that way and be done. There is nothing you can do... .Just know, you may be right and you were not told.

[BestVersionOfMe]

My SO has a habit of telling me they said something that I have no recollection of hearing and think to myself "if I'd have heard that, I'd remember."   I am not going to lie and say I don't tune out at times, but it is frustrating because I can't go back and relive something I don't remember, and  it's hard to prove something was or wasn't said.   The worst part is that my SO insists I don't listen, and so any misunderstandings are my fault.   

So how do you handle it when a reality is shared that you can't prove is wrong, but you have no recollection of hearing or being a witness to?   

My wife does this constantly, sometimes with seemingly no purpose or anything to gain.  For the last few years, until my kids started complaining to me that she was doing that to them as well, I thought it was all me.  I can't ell you how many times she said, "I told you that!" It is good to know I am not crazy.  I tried researching it and I don't think it is gas lighting per se but I could be wrong.  I was thinking that it was more about her proving to herself that no one listens to her which is part of the disorder.  They want to be heard, desperately, but they also have this inner dialogue that is supposed to tell them that they will never be heard.  By saying, "I told you that" even though she didn't, I think she can fulfill her self-proclaimed prophecy. 

Despite how frustrating this is, there is nothing I can do about it and trying to be "right" about it serves no point so I normally just say, "Oh sorry about that, let me write that down!"

[waverider]

Sometimes it is their deluded view of what was said or meant. At other times it is just a blatant attempt to avoid responsibility, in other words a flat out lie rather than delusion.

You can drive yourself nuts trying to work out which it is and how to prove your reality.

Know your own reality and beliefs, accept you wont always know the truth and dont get sucked into conflict trying to prove it either way.

Your reality is your reality whether it is right or wrong. It is the one you have.

[MaybeSo]

Know your own reality and beliefs, accept you wont always know the truth and dont get sucked into conflict trying to prove it either way.

Your reality is your reality whether it is right or wrong. It is the one you have.

Bingo.

That's a core boundary of self-hood.  You have a right to hold onto yourself and respect your own reality including your perspective, your memory, and your values, while acknowledging that others have their own values, memories, beliefs and perspectives,  too and that theirs may be quite different than yours.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Know your own reality and beliefs, accept you wont always know the truth and dont get sucked into conflict trying to prove it either way.

Your reality is your reality whether it is right or wrong. It is the one you have.

Bingo.

That's a core boundary of self-hood.  You have a right to hold onto yourself and respect your own reality including your perspective, your memory, and your values, while acknowledging that others have their own values, memories, beliefs and perspectives,  too and that theirs may be quite different than yours.

Excellent!  Deepak Choprah talks about how most people spend 99.9% of their time defending their point of view.  Why?  Our need to be right.  What do we gain out of being right exactly?  How does it benefit us?  It doesn't.  It feeds our ego and our ego isn't who we really are.  In my experience, eliminating my need to be right, improved my relationship tremendously.  In fact it changed my life in all areas.  A lot of things just stopped bothering me and I realized I didn't have to be so reactive all the time.

[waverider]

Know your own reality and beliefs, accept you wont always know the truth and dont get sucked into conflict trying to prove it either way.

Your reality is your reality whether it is right or wrong. It is the one you have.

Bingo.

That's a core boundary of self-hood.  You have a right to hold onto yourself and respect your own reality including your perspective, your memory, and your values, while acknowledging that others have their own values, memories, beliefs and perspectives,  too and that theirs may be quite different than yours.

Excellent!  Deepak Choprah talks about how most people spend 99.9% of their time defending their point of view.  Why?  Our need to be right.  What do we gain out of being right exactly?  How does it benefit us?  It doesn't.  It feeds our ego and our ego isn't who we really are.  In my experience, eliminating my need to be right, improved my relationship tremendously.  In fact it changed my life in all areas.  A lot of things just stopped bothering me and I realized I didn't have to be so reactive all the time.

Owning our own human frailty, and regaining comfort in not always needing our views validated as to being the right, is the first step towards accepting this. We also listen better and actually learn more when this auto defense switch is not on.

It is also important to not just switch our ears off simply because what we are hearing is not aligned with our views. Though at times that is hard for the sake of not driving ourselves nuts.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Know your own reality and beliefs, accept you wont always know the truth and dont get sucked into conflict trying to prove it either way.

Your reality is your reality whether it is right or wrong. It is the one you have.

Bingo.

 That's a core boundary of self-hood.  You have a right to hold onto yourself and respect your own reality including your perspective, your memory, and your values, while acknowledging that others have their own values, memories, beliefs and perspectives,  too and that theirs may be quite different than yours.

Excellent!  Deepak Choprah talks about how most people spend 99.9% of their time defending their point of view.  Why?  Our need to be right.  What do we gain out of being right exactly?  How does it benefit us?  It doesn't.  It feeds our ego and our ego isn't who we really are.  In my experience, eliminating my need to be right, improved my relationship tremendously.  In fact it changed my life in all areas.  A lot of things just stopped bothering me and I realized I didn't have to be so reactive all the time.

Owning our own human frailty, and regaining comfort in not always needing our views validated as to being the right, is the first step towards accepting this. We also listen better and actually learn more when this auto defense switch is not on.

It is also important to not just switch our ears off simply because what we are hearing is not aligned with our views. Though at times that is hard for the sake of not driving ourselves nuts.

I totally agree.  Active listening means that the other person is "heard" so much better than when our listening is tainted with the history we have of that person, our story, always playing in the background.  In fact, that is something that I need to work harder on myself with all people in my life.

[Grey Kitty]

I never felt like I was subjected to gaslighting like the movie in any way, although I did feel like my reality was being questioned. What I got was more often my wife stating a different version of what happened, contradicting what I remembered, than saying she said something I didn't recall hearing.

I came to realize it was a case of her feeling one way (painting me black) and twisting prior events to match that in her mind, then feeling another way (painting me white) and shifting the past to match that.

It did have me starting to wonder if I was nuts. Ultimately two things helped me out.

First, I started keeping a diary where I described many of our interactions, and most all our conflicts, and could look back at it and see what I had been told last time, or what I remembered, and confirm that I was getting a different story now. It validated my sanity and my memory.

Second, I realized that most of the time, convincing my wife that her version of reality was "wrong" was a no-win situation. It seldom worked, and work or not, it invalidated her and made my marriage worse.