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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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vortex of confusion
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« on: June 27, 2016, 08:32:15 PM »

First off, there are no legal orders regarding custody or child care. I asked STBX to leave at the beginning of March. Legally, we are still married. He has been living with a friend from his SA group. This friend is a registered sex offender. I insist that any and all visitation be at our family home unless he wants to take the kids somewhere like the zoo or bowling or some place similar. I am not sure if that is relevant to my concerns. I wanted to put it out there for consideration. I can't think of any better arrangement at this time. As long as he is living where he is, I am going to be very adamant about this. Ex agrees with me on this.

Ex has recently told me that he is queer. That was his word choice. He mentioned wanting to come out to the kids. I told him that I think he needs to keep it to himself. My reasoning is that he could change his mind tomorrow. I told him that I didn't want him saying anything to the kids for that very reason. It isn't that I want him to hide it from them. It has been a real mind funk for me to deal with him continually changing his mind about who and what he is. The kids are still adjusting to the fact that he no longer lives with us and that their parents are eventually going to get a divorce. I think him coming out as gay/bi or anything like that is too much for the kids to handle right now. I don't think it is age appropriate for the younger ones and I don't think the older ones are ready to deal with it. As far as the kids are concerned right now, neither mom nor dad have any romantic interests in anybody. All of the people that either of us hang out with are just friends. I think kids need time to heal from this stuff as much as or more than the adults.

Several years ago, he came out to me as being bi. He did some experimentation with a guy and when the guy ditched him, he said that it was all a mistake and that he was actually straight and that it was all a result of his sex addiction. Now, he is claiming to be queer and when I said I didn't want him talking to the kids about it, he didn't seem too happy about it. I am not really sure how to navigate all of this. I don't want him to feel like he has to lie about who he is. At the same time, I know his tendency to be gung ho about something and jump into it and then change his mind the next day. Less than a month ago, he had found the love of his life (a woman) and they had a spiritual connection, blah, blah, blah. Now, he says that he is queer and went to a drag fashion show the other night. A week or two before that, he was going to alter server training so he could be a server at a Catholic mass. 

The kids have no idea that he has been struggling with sex addiction or his sexual orientation or anything of the sort. The older two girls miss the fun/cool dad that they had when they were little and are sad that their two little sisters will never get to know that dad. The kids and I spent a lot of time hoping that he would go back to being the fun loving cool dad that he was once upon a time. The lives of the kids have already been turned upside down enough. They need a friggin' break. I want them to be able to relax and just be kids.

Has anybody dealt with anything similar? If so, how do you navigate this kind of stuff?
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 02:44:22 PM »

Is it possible that he experiences gender confusion as a part of his identity disturbance (BPD)?

Why do you think he feels the need to tell the kids about his sexual orientation? Understandably, he may be experiencing no boundaries and need your help with setting them. I'm wondering, tho, if he is feels that claiming one form of sexual identity or another is a way to stabilize himself, at least temporarily. The urge to share it with his family might be an attempt to identify more clearly by looking for validation externally. You have seen him change his sexual orientation and know it isn't likely to be permanent.

Maybe validate that he is experiencing these feelings for now. And stick to boundaries about sharing this with the kids.

If they do discover he is coming to terms with fluidity in his sexual orientation, it probably comes down to your family's values and your skills at validating their emotions in response to what he shares with them, how it makes them feel. If they are not sexually active yet themselves, they will likely look to you for direction on whether this is to be accepted (no shame).

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ForeverDad
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2016, 03:03:50 PM »

You are right to limit the children's contact with that person who is a registered sex offender.  If need be, you can seek a court order to address that concern.  Until then, you as the primary parent can rightly set the rules for his parenting.  Without a court order stating otherwise you and your spouse have equal but unspecified rights as parents.  So you can set the terms and if he doesn't agree then the only way he can force a change is to seek a court order.  Meanwhile don't feel guilted or overly obligated.

When you do decide to divorce then it is standard for a divorce to set a parenting plan in place along with an appropriate parenting schedule.  It would have to include terms to ensure the children remain reasonably safe and at lessened risk.

At some point, perhaps when you start divorcing or once divorced, you may find it wise reconsider allowing him to come into your home.  That's a judgment call for you, it sounds like he's not nearly as acting-out and obstructive as some spouses can be.  My case was very different, it was very high conflict and my Ex doesn't want me to step foot near her home and so I have the same rule for her.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 05:16:02 PM »

Is it possible that he experiences gender confusion as a part of his identity disturbance (BPD)?

I don't think it is gender confusion as much as it is confusion about his sexual orientation. Early in our relationship, he mentioned being unsure about it in his teens. I didn't see it as a big deal. Teens experience a lot of confusion.

Excerpt
Why do you think he feels the need to tell the kids about his sexual orientation? Understandably, he may be experiencing no boundaries and need your help with setting them. I'm wondering, tho, if he is feels that claiming one form of sexual identity or another is a way to stabilize himself, at least temporarily. The urge to share it with his family might be an attempt to identify more clearly by looking for validation externally. You have seen him change his sexual orientation and know it isn't likely to be permanent.

He told me that he was tired of all of the lies and he wanted to finally start being honest. I have heard that on several occasions. I know that in the past he would tell me all of these things and I would listen and talk to him and help him figure out what to do next. In the past, I asked him if he had talked to his sponsor about any of this. He won't talk to his SA sponsor about his issues with his sexual orientation. He saw a counselor a hand full of times but wouldn't/didn't bring it up with her either because that was during a period when he was pretty adamant that he was not bisexual. My concern is that he will talk to the kids about stuff like he used to share with me. I know that talking to me helped him feel more stable. As long as I sat and listened and didn't challenge anything or try to tell him that I didn't want to hear about it, things were peaceful and he was happy.

Excerpt
Maybe validate that he is experiencing these feelings for now. And stick to boundaries about sharing this with the kids.

I sent him a link to a community center in the area that specializes in this kind of stuff. I don't have the energy to validate him or his feelings. My focus is on me and the kids. I know that he told the oldest that he is bi. She told me about it and was kind of upset that he told her. It made her uncomfortable as she doesn't care who or what her dad is attracted to. He is her dad and she isn't ready to think about that kind of thing.

Excerpt
If they do discover he is coming to terms with fluidity in his sexual orientation, it probably comes down to your family's values and your skills at validating their emotions in response to what he shares with them, how it makes them feel. If they are not sexually active yet themselves, they will likely look to you for direction on whether this is to be accepted (no shame).

If the kids have a problem accepting it, it will be related to the fact that mom and dad aren't together any more. They do NOT like thinking about mom and dad with anybody but each other. None of my kids are sexually active. The oldest and I have had a few discussions about sexuality and sexual identity as it relates to her. She is like most kids and doesn't want to think about her parents as sexual beings. That is more or less what she told me when she said that he had told her about being bisexual. I validated it and agreed that I don't like thinking about my parents in that way either. I know they had to do stuff to have us kids but I sure as heck don't like thinking about it or talking about it. It isn't a shameful thing. It is a private thing.

When same sex marriage became legal, one of our daughters was quite happy because she said that meant she could grow up and marry her best friend. The younger kids don't have a clue about the sexual elements of any of it. To them, being gay just means that you love somebody of the same gender. Big deal, people can love anybody they want.

I am pretty sure that their overarching question will be, "Why can't mom and dad love each other?" There was one time when he was going to go hang out with a female friend and the kids got really mad. They wanted to know what was wrong with mom. Why can't dad hang out with mom? What is wrong with mom? The kids are very critical of him and have no respect for him.

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vortex of confusion
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Posts: 3234



« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 05:39:51 PM »

You are right to limit the children's contact with that person who is a registered sex offender.  If need be, you can seek a court order to address that concern.  Until then, you as the primary parent can rightly set the rules for his parenting.  Without a court order stating otherwise you and your spouse have equal but unspecified rights as parents.  So you can set the terms and if he doesn't agree then the only way he can force a change is to seek a court order.  Meanwhile don't feel guilted or overly obligated.

I don't see the need to get any court orders at this time. When he had some work done on his car, I took him home. I wouldn't let the kids go with me to take him home. He was okay with that.

I wonder if I should start another thread about the unspecified rights stuff. I have been trying to be fair and give him ample opportunity to see the kids. The kids don't have much, if any, interest in seeing him or having him over. I don't want to alienate him from his kids and I also want to honor the kids' desire to NOT see him regularly. I have tried to question them about why they don't want to see him. They find him annoying. He comes over and stays too long. He bothers you instead of hanging out with us kids. Most recently, one of the kids expressed that it bothers her that dad is going out and doing all of this stuff and then coming and telling us about it. Why can't he find the time and money to do stuff with his family? Most of the stuff he talks about is innocent stuff like meeting up with people on his games and stuff like that. It is like a kid coming home from school and telling mommy all about his day. He isn't asking the kids about what they do or how they are doing. If he does ask, they don't share much because they know that it will come back around to him and what he is doing.

Excerpt
At some point, perhaps when you start divorcing or once divorced, you may find it wise reconsider allowing him to come into your home.  That's a judgment call for you, it sounds like he's not nearly as acting-out and obstructive as some spouses can be.  My case was very different, it was very high conflict and my Ex doesn't want me to step foot near her home and so I have the same rule for her.

Right now, he is jobless and is living in somebody's spare bedroom rent free. Most of his stuff is still at the house so I haven't instituted a stay away policy. I have told him that he is not allowed to come over without asking first. No unexpected visits. I have no idea how things will go once I start delving into the legal process.
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Lilyroze
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2016, 08:36:29 PM »

  Vortex,

Just wanted to say thinking about you since your last posts where we discussed. This must be so tough for you right now.

I agree with the restrictions you are putting on the visits, you really have no choice. You have to do what is in the best interests of your children. As for the coming out, I agree they are going through enough right now. It would be great if he could just be a Dad.

If worse comes to worse go to court for supervised visits and mandated counseling etc.

Take care of yourself with all this and hope you can get some rest.

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livednlearned
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 07:28:48 AM »

I don't see the need to get any court orders at this time. When he had some work done on his car, I took him home. I wouldn't let the kids go with me to take him home. He was okay with that.

It's best to think of court as something that is already in your marriage, watching. What you do or don't do to protect the kids is the court's business, and if you believe you can handle things on your own, court will expect that you have a squeaky clean record of protecting those kids.

It is not fair, and it is true: If you make choices that court thinks are bad (even in retrospect), court treats you AND your ex as equally troubled parents. While it is unfair, we (non-disordered parent) are expected to dig our way out of this hole by showing we are in fact the adult in the relationship. This is actually much harder to do than it sounds.

Excerpt
I don't want to alienate him from his kids

Alienation is a very specific behavior that typically goes along with personality disordered behavior. Protecting your kids from abusive or inappropriate behaviors is not alienation. If you are worried he might lodge alienation accusations against you, document everything you possibly can. Think about the story you want to tell to demonstrate that you took measures to protect the kids AND maintain a relationship with dad that was reasonably safe.

It's hard, I know.




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