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Author Topic: Been at it for so long - II  (Read 755 times)
BestVersionOfMe
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« on: July 04, 2016, 04:22:18 PM »

Wife is particularly on edge today, and I'm not sure why.  It's not so much the incessant complaining, "The house is soo disgusting" and "Oh I just can't  take it anymore" and then there is the "I'm soo tired".  Finally she back went upstairs to take a nap, just like yesterday.  I think the napping is more like escapism.  That is how she is upstairs.  :)ownstairs she walks around like a peacock with her underwear hanging out of her pants, burping at times, throwing silverware in the sink, and acting like she is a pre-madonna.  Last night we were at some friends house playing darts having a good time.  She is on her best behavior in front of others.  Each time it was her turn she would hand me her wine glass to hold as if to show superiority.  Each time I put it on the ground immediately, and then after a few times I said, "Why are you handing me your wine glass, you can find any number of places to set it down."  She then simply put it down.  Then there is the use of language, "I'll have you do this" or "I'll need you to go get this for me at the store."  There is part of me that wants to challenge on these things each and every time because it is an issue of control and a lack of respect.  There is another part of me that is trying to deal with the reality that I am choosing to remain in the relationship and starting WW III over the use of "I'll have you do this" is probably not the best use of my time and energy.  
Continued from: bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295174.0
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2016, 05:41:00 PM »

Rather than focusing on how to say "no", focus on changing her language from "I need to"  into "I would like you  to". This has been a big area I have had to work on. The latter gets co operation and the former gets no reaction. They still get what they want and you dont feel as resentment.
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2016, 08:37:51 AM »

I don't think I want a magic pill, I guess I am baffled at her indifference.  Its not like we are fighting like cats and dogs or that she is disregulated all the time.  She is really quite functional.  It is almost like the better our communication gets, and the better I am at being less reactive to her, the more she distances herself from the family.  It's almost like she is single and very active, yet she has this thing called a family that gets in the way.  

This could also be the "detached protector" that you're seeing. It baffled me as well - when I was still in the r/s, I didn't understand that the "detached protector" appeared when she was emotionally overwhelmed and trying to protect all her other parts of self. She just appeared to me to be utterly indifferent.

From Jeffrey Young's Schema Theory: " Detached Protector: cuts off needs and feelings; detaches emotionally from people and rejects their help; feels withdrawn, spacey, distracted, disconnected, depersonalized, empty or bored; pursues distracting, self-soothing, or self-stimulating activities in a compulsive way or to excess; may adopt a cynical, aloof or pessimistic stance to avoid investing in people or activities."

More on Schema Therapy: www.getselfhelp.co.uk/schema.html

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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2016, 09:44:33 AM »

This could also be the "detached protector" that you're seeing... .From Jeffrey Young's Schema Theory: " Detached Protector: cuts off needs and feelings; detaches emotionally from people and rejects their help; feels withdrawn, spacey, distracted, disconnected, depersonalized, empty or bored; pursues distracting, self-soothing, or self-stimulating activities in a compulsive way or to excess; may adopt a cynical, aloof or pessimistic stance to avoid investing in people or activities."

I've read about the role numerous times and wondered that myself.  I wonder if part of this increasingly ridiculous behavior has more to do with the fact that I have worked so hard on myself over the past year or more?  The gap continues to widen between us.  We were at a party last night and she was buzzing around talking with anyone and everyone saying anything she thought anyone would want to hear.  It was so fake and everybody was so fooled it just made me sick.   People see her as this strong, beautiful, athletic women that balances all of this while being the supermom of three children.  It's an illusion and I guess I have come to resent that illusion.  In fact I feel that this illusion might be why she acts so superior to me and the kids, and truly believes that the kids and I are the reason she gets so upset sometimes.  If she could just have a "normal" family then all of her problems would be solved like all the other moms out there.  

There is something else that weighs heavily on my mind which is that the more time I spend here, the more irritated I have become about my situation. I have begun to study her behavior more, research more about BPD, and spend mental energy being pissed off about by relationship.  The decision I made awhile back to cease spending anymore time about BPD helped me immensely and I am considering doing that again.
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2016, 07:20:05 PM »

Excerpt
I wonder if part of this increasingly ridiculous behavior has more to do with the fact that I have worked so hard on myself over the past year or more? 

While her behavior might be a reaction to the changes you've made, in her mind, very little is about you - it's all about how she's feeling. She might be frightened by the changes and pulling back, or "puffing herself up." Or simply dissociating, which is the easiest option of all.

I do think you need to check your irritation by whatever means necessary. I've occasionally taken a break from these boards - so I understand.

Best of luck.
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2016, 08:12:40 PM »




There is something else that weighs heavily on my mind which is that the more time I spend here, the more irritated I have become about my situation. I have begun to study her behavior more, research more about BPD, and spend mental energy being pissed off about by relationship.  The decision I made awhile back to cease spending anymore time about BPD helped me immensely and I am considering doing that again.

This is a real risk and you do have to moderate the research you do on this as you expose too many gaps quicker than your own ability to adapt and accept. Turning the lights on too quickly exposes far more than you are are willing to deal with, bringing with it a feeling of hopelessness and despair.

I used to read a lot and go to support groups, now I just restrict it to this forum, and a lot of that is about helping others more than constantly putting my own RS under the microscope.

Part of personal protection is our ability to self delude to a degree, this is not all bad. It is an evolution not a revolution.

As you say change begets change as a natural reaction. pwBPD are sensitive to change. Change is seen as a challenge to the status quo, and brings with it push back and suspicion.
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2016, 09:28:06 PM »

Just to cut through the all the details her and zoom up to 35,000 feet... .

Relationships generally operate in one of two modes, building love or building resentment. Your relationship sounds to be on the latter path for some time. You are very clear on what your resentment is about - rejection in the bedroom. You have convinced yourself that it is about "control" for her - but, if we were working with her, I think we would find out that her resentments are about something far different.

The sex issue bothers you and your finding that if you let it go, it is dropping some of the tension. Not a permanent solution, but certainly a start in the category of:

Excerpt
before you can make thing better, you must stop making them worse.

So what might she be resentful about?

PS: This latest battleground - the alarm clock ultimatums - probably not the best approach.  She could very easily (I could very easily... .) read that as being selfish and controlling and petty. Don't waste your relationship goodwill on small things  It sounds like you could have worked this out mutually usually - except for the protective walls that are up between the two of you.
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2016, 11:01:21 PM »

It just isn't in the bedroom, it is the complete indifference of the relationship entirely.  I think if she was on this forum and you asked her what the problem was she'd bring back every single negative thing that I ever did.  I accused her of an affair, I called the cops on her one night when she threatened to do the same on me, I haven't always been the most consistent provider, I blow up at her every few months when I am frustrated.  What is that theme?  Trust.  She doesn't trust me, period.  She doesn't trust me because she created the ideal of me which was superhuman, and over time as I proved human in every way, she feels ripped off.  In her defense, she never signed up for intimacy in the first place, just sex and for me to be an awesome financial provider.  I woke up one day and wanted intimacy, not her.  She is clearly content without it, just as she experienced with her parents growing up.  I'm just frustrated and I think my feelings come out here on the forum.  It is what it is.  I have chosen to remain.
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2016, 01:10:00 AM »

 In her defense, she never signed up for intimacy in the first place, just sex and for me to be an awesome financial provider.  I woke up one day and wanted intimacy, not her.  She is clearly content without it, just as she experienced with her parents growing up.  I'm just frustrated and I think my feelings come out here on the forum.  It is what it is.  I have chosen to remain.

This is an interesting point. What happens when our goals change. It may be an interesting topic for a whole new thread. All relationships evolve, but not always in sync. Is it a BPD issue or not? That can happen in any relationship.

Is she actually reacting to you, or have you just grown apart?
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2016, 01:29:27 AM »

What is that theme?  Trust.  She doesn't trust me, period.

This is probably right... .this is probably what her counter-resentment is built on.

Is it:
I accused her of an affair, I called the cops on her one night when she threatened to do the same on me, I haven't always been the most consistent provider, I blow up at her every few months when I am frustrated.

or is it:  
She she created the ideal of me which was superhuman and over time as I proved human

or a bit of both... .more importantly, can any of it be rehabilitated? Or asked in a more humble way, what will make it worse, what will help make your wife less withdrawn and help rebuild enough of a relationship to make for a home life that can be sustained.

It is what it is.  I have chosen to remain.

I'm not challenging your decision to stay at all - I think I would do just as you are. I'm suggesting that the level at which you are suggesting that you operate in this relationship may lead to further deterioration - to stay you may need to reach for more.

This might help you characterize where you are:
bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2016, 02:52:14 AM »

If intimacy is important for you and you are not getting any, then it takes no stretch of the imagination of what is likely to happen when you come into contact with someone offering it. It makes you a perfect target for a poaching pwBPD with a big dose of idealization.

As Skip says you will need more out of a RS to keep it out of the danger zone.
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2016, 08:21:59 AM »


or is it:  
She she created the ideal of me which was superhuman and over time as I proved human

or a bit of both... .more importantly, can any of it be rehabilitated? Or asked in a more humble way, what will make it worse, what will help make your wife less withdrawn and help rebuild enough of a relationship to make for a home life that can be sustained.

The superhuman thing got under my skin as well... .although I sure was content with the "positive" side of it (idealization) in the beginning!  Thought I couldn't understand why she expected that I would NEVER make a mistake or have a bad day.

The "what will make it worse, what will make your wife feel less withdrawn" are very good things to think about - especially since you have very specific tools and resources on this board to guide you.

It is what it is.  I have chosen to remain.

I'm not challenging your decision to stay at all - I think I would do just as you are. I'm suggesting that the level at which you are suggesting that you operate in this relationship may lead to further deterioration - to stay you may need to reach for more.

I would have chosen to remain as well... .I could see that the r/s was deteriorating, and when I look back on it, my reactions to her made it worse because I didn't understand what I was dealing with and didn't have the tools to cope with her mental health issues. And, to be frank, near the end I was probably too much of an emotional mess myself to have used them well.

It takes the patience of a saint to stay - I understand. But you sound somewhat double minded about your decision: "I have chosen to remain" versus ... ."she walks around like a peacock with her underwear hanging out of her pants, burping at times, throwing silverware in the sink, and acting like she is a pre-madonna"... ."increasingly ridiculous behavior... ."... ." It's an illusion and I guess I have come to resent that illusion... ."

You feel resentful (and understandably so), but this resentment is likely being picked up by her as well.

Another (psychological) side note: my ex got into therapy in the last year of our r/s. She was on the dissociative spectrum. Her and her therapist quickly identified a number of parts of self: Little M. (age 5, sweet, needy, clingy), Teenage M (impulsive, boundary-less, very sexual), adult M (assistant Superintendent, well liked by her co-workers, very talented at her job). At about year 4 of our 8 year r/s, a different 'part of self' took the lead. Little M had been leading, and, as she became increasingly unhappy in the r/s, teenage M took the lead - and that's when all hell broke loose.

At the time, our stepdaughter was 15 and I was stunned to recognize that my ex was operating at the same level of maturity as my stepdaughter. She was trying to share clothes with her and acting more like her friend than her mom. Even her best friend called her out on it. Needless to say, I found it distasteful as well.

... ."she walks around like a peacock with her underwear hanging out of her pants, burping at times, throwing silverware in the sink, and acting like she is a pre-madonna" sounds very teenage-like to me.

Even more interesting is that my own therapist told me that it's possible for only one "part of self" to have BPD. In my case, it was Teenage M who was BPD. This also helped explain the rapid shift in values from Little M to teenage M (Little M was sweet and needy; teenage M was promiscuous, a compulsive liar, and began cheating).

It was teenage M I met - but the first time around she was enamoured with me and very interesting and exciting to be around. She morphed into Little M when we moved in together - I had taken on the role of parent to her stepdaughter, but over time began to feel as though I had two children. She reverted to teenage M (the angry version) when she was unhappy. I'd see adult M from time to time but it became increasingly rare.

I'm not sharing all this because I need to tell my story; I'm sharing it in the hopes that it will help you if you recognize any of it in your own r/s. I understand the resentment at the teenage-like behavior (I felt it too), but if you really want to remain you'll have to not only try to lessen your resentment, but to actually make friends with that part of herself.
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2016, 09:28:55 AM »

 In her defense, she never signed up for intimacy in the first place, just sex and for me to be an awesome financial provider.  I woke up one day and wanted intimacy, not her.  She is clearly content without it, just as she experienced with her parents growing up.  I'm just frustrated and I think my feelings come out here on the forum.  It is what it is.  I have chosen to remain.

This is an interesting point. What happens when our goals change. It may be an interesting topic for a whole new thread. All relationships evolve, but not always in sync. Is it a BPD issue or not? That can happen in any relationship.

Is she actually reacting to you, or have you just grown apart?

Totally worth having a large discussion about.  I got what I wanted early in the relationship, sex, she got a provider.  As we had kids and she wasn't as interested in sex I felt lack and that is when many things changed, in fact it was the catalyst for me to begin my journey of personal development.  It started with me trying to fix her for years and then over the last few years for me to work more on myself.  I many ways I am an entirely different person with totally different needs, yet she has gone even further the other way to the point where I don't think we really understand or know who each other really is.  She lives in her world of the false self and I increasingly am more in touch with who I am.  I think I am at the phase whereby I intellectually understand entirely what I am choosing to do, but the emotional side hasn't caught up yet.  I still have all these wants and needs that aren't getting met and I am probably mourning at the reality that this is what I have.  This is a state of non-acceptance and non-acceptance = suffering. 
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2016, 10:52:56 AM »

You mention her language and how it is demanding. I definately get that and have experienced those same things. Its something I struggle with a lot. My GF could say... .Go get me some diet coke. She will say it in a tone that is demanding. Then I question her tone. I say... .I wish you would have asked nicely like say please or thank you. Even saying it in a non demanding way would be better. Me standing up for myself seems to piss her off because she will say "Are you that insecure you need me to say please?" "Ok please master. Please my king I wish you would get me some diet coke. I am not worthy of you. Is that better?". Then I just get pissed off and me getting upsets makes her mad and yell. Its so hard to just brush off the disrespect because it builds massive resentment.
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2016, 03:51:28 PM »

If intimacy is important for you and you are not getting any, then it takes no stretch of the imagination of what is likely to happen when you come into contact with someone offering it. It makes you a perfect target for a poaching pwBPD with a big dose of idealization.

As Skip says you will need more out of a RS to keep it out of the danger zone.

I agree and you know after this morning, it was fine, she brought the little one to meet me at a coffee shop to hang out and we kissed when I had to take a call.  I don't believe that we are hopeless, we just went to a bad place for quite some time.  I liken her to a snail that is poking her head out and waiting for me to poke her.  I can't poke her anymore!

As far as other women go, if I wanted to go there I would have done it long ago.  For some reason, I have made it a point to take extraordinary precautions with that kind of thing.
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« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2016, 03:57:40 PM »


jhkbuzz, I actually really appreciate this information, particularly the part about making friends with the "teenager."  The biggest trigger for her is the house.  Nearly all of the episodes are in this place or revolve around the kids, or something breaking, or the house being messy.  The older the kids get and the more our lives become more complicated the more she can't handle it.  She murmurs "I can't take much more of this" or "I sick of cleaning all the time" or "Has anyone seen my fill in the blank."  You are correct about resentment.  I need to replace it with compassion each time and tell myself, "She is doing the best she can."  Being a SAHM is just too much for her with someone of her skills.  She is way over her head, knows it, and spends time trying to feel adequate.  I spent the majority of our relationship making sure she knew she wasn't adequate and so accepting her for who she is is paramount to us getting to a place that is manageable.  
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« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 04:03:36 PM »

I spent the majority of our relationship making sure she knew she wasn't adequate and so accepting her for who she is is paramount to us getting to a place that is manageable.

I applaud you for being this self-aware.
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2016, 04:08:31 PM »

 Thanks Skip, it is the truth and I am well aware of it.  Being conscious enough in each moment and with each interaction is a difficult thing to deal with however, but that is what I strive for.  After-all her greatest need in life is to feel important and adequate, so taking that away from her in order to punish is all on me.  That is my part of the relationship that I failed on 100%.  Going through it each day is something most people on this earth could never comprehend.  I don't question my decision however, that has never waivered.
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2016, 09:30:14 PM »

I am trying something different tonight.  Wife is upstairs doing laundry as usual which I think is her just hiding until kids go down.  Typically we sit in silence watching some stupid show that she is into that I am not.  Not tonight.  I am going to make the effort, a conscious one to talk with her.  Regardless of all of this she at least deserves that and it will give us a chance to connect rather than it all being about resent and who did what in the past.  I'll let you know how it goes!
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2016, 09:49:54 PM »

  I am going to make the effort, a conscious one to talk with her. 
Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
More importantly prompt her to feel comfortable talking to you... Active listening, reduce her defensiveness as much as possible. Be interested in whatever it is she has to say. It s an exercise in connection, not just passing on information
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2016, 11:04:53 PM »

I am going to make the effort, a conscious one to talk with her.  Regardless of all of this she at least deserves that and it will give us a chance to connect rather than it all being about resent and who did what in the past.  I'll let you know how it goes!

I failed, by the time she came back down I couldn't stand her.  So I am on my laptop trying to engage with more intelligent life rather than watching reality tv and such.
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2016, 01:37:13 AM »

Theres always a next time... No point flogging a dead horse it only makes it harder to resurrect
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2016, 03:48:36 PM »

Yeah tonight is a new night.  She is going on a long run with her running group in the morning which is fine.  I have found that if I ask her questions before dinner it really makes her more responsive after the kids go down.  What that means is that I have to do a gut check before I got home to make sure I'm not in "war zone mode" because my body language is pretty obvious and she likely picks up on that. 
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2016, 11:34:31 PM »

In some ways I feel like the marriage is totally dead.  No fighting anymore, just silence when we watch TV at night.  Since I gave up pursuing sex every few nights we went to new all new levels of boredom and roommate style behavior with each other.  When we go out in public at parties she hangs all over me, but when we get home it is just totally dead.  In her defense, I'm just as cold as she is.  I can't stand her constantly complaining and negativity.  It is why I leave the house with kids for 4-5 hours at a time to go swim at pool.  It is a never-ending back and forth.  On the one hand I have this beautiful, and at time adorable, woman lying next to me each night.  She is attractive and fun at times.  On the other hand we never have sex and she bugs the every-loving sh*t out of me.  This is just great!
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2016, 11:57:47 PM »

  On the one hand I have this beautiful, and at time adorable, woman lying next to me each night.  She is attractive and fun at times.  On the other hand we never have sex and she bugs the every-loving sh*t out of me.  This is just great!

Went through this with my previous marriage, seems like such a waste, and for no good reason
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2016, 12:08:34 AM »

So we left house at around 1 pst and came home around 5 PST.  We were at the pool.  In her texts to me she said that she had been cleaning the garage for the entire time, so much so that she couldn't even take a shower.  It was a "poor me" moment.  So admittedly the garage is cleaner, but I would put the workload more like 20 mins.  If I spent 4 hours the entire thing would be done.  
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waverider
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2016, 03:31:26 AM »

 So admittedly the garage is cleaner, but I would put the workload more like 20 mins.  If I spent 4 hours the entire thing would be done.  

Thats the way it is so you just need to accept it. She probably found a task like that way harder psychologically than you would. Especially knowing you were doing what you wanted.

The martyr behavior is grating, but you need to let it slide or it just compounds to get under your skin.

My wife would have opened the garage door just as i was returning down the street and proclaimed she was flat out in the middle of doing it, then pulled a sickie and left me to finish it.

I think it is your overall frustration that is letting little things like this get to you. You know the effort is not going to be on par, that is the nature of the Disorder
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