Any hope?

[Mr Orange]

I chose to separate from my uBPDw of 2 years in late February. I couldn't take any more of the madness. We have both expressed a desire to reconcile over the past few months, though we both have terms upon which the reconciliation is contingent. For her, it is contingent on what I want her to work on/change. She has always been paranoid that I'm somehow going to change who she is, which doesn't make any sense to me. No one can change who I am as a person at my core. For me, I want to see her get into individual counseling as I have, or we're not going to get back together. We've done couples counseling through a counselor at church, which was worthless. We've been no contact for 22 days now. Prior to this stretch, the longest period was about a week. I'm starting to believe that she has looked at the situation and when faced with the choices of divorce or work on her issues, she'd rather see the marriage end.

Anyone feel there might be hope she will decide to try counseling?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd suggest you let that one go, and approach it another way.

Counseling in and of itself won't solve things. It is a tool to help her change in ways she wants to change. If she doesn't want to change, the counseling won't work.

It was her behavior that drove you to leave in February. I don't know your story, so don't know what specific behavior(s) did it.

Addressing the behaviors directly instead will work better.

What behaviors do you need her to change to be willing to try again?

[Mr Orange]

Her acknowledging the fact that she has some responsibility in this failing marriage would be a good start. I don't think that's unreasonable. So far she hasn't even been able to do that. Other things I would like to see change... .Not constantly snapping at me for no reason, not using sex as a form of manipulation and control, being able to have a conversation without ending up screaming and saying "F*ck you!" to me. You know, just a few things that are a given in most functioning healthy relationships.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Yeah that would be something that would be difficult to deal with in a marriage.  How much do you know about BPD as it relates to emotional dysregulation?  Her emotions are incredibly strong compared to yours and mine and when she gets triggered the emotional reaction is so strong that it comes out in unhealthy ways.  That can be all forms of abuse including withholding sex(that is one of the things I deal with), manipulation, control, and at times abusive language.  If you haven't already, please also read about splitting.  If you are in the "all bad" camp with her then she is in a constant state of instant conflict and it takes very little for her to be snippy and argumentative.  It is exhausting to deal with, however if you really embrace and learn about validation and use it a lot you might take the edge off to make the relationship manageable. 

[Grey Kitty]

What you ask for is pretty reasonable, although she may not be capable.

However if you asked her for it in that way, I can't imagine anything good coming of it. In fact I wouldn't like the tone of that if it was aimed at me, and I don't even have BPD!

Would you like to try recasting that as a series of direct and specific requests for her?

[motherhen]

It's best to try to eat the elephant one bite at a time. That's a lot to change, and while all those things certainly need to change and improve to have a successful relationship it's very overwhelming to someone who doesn't have any coping skills. Most likely right now she is feeling very rejected and so is rejecting you first.

One thing that was really helpful for me was the realization that my spouse takes no responsibility for his behaviors for several reasons, but not because he lacks empathy. One is that he dissociates during his outbursts and if you remind him what he said or did, it sounds familiar but it's hard to feel remorse for what you heard that you did when you don't have your own recollection. The other is that to acknowledge the deep hurt he causes in these episodes, would be on par with annihilation of self if he were to admit to himself that there is bad in him and fully take responsibility for it.

His self image is so shaky at best, that it's similar to if you were drowning and desperately grabbed onto someone to pull yourself up. You wouldn't feel bad for using the only tool you had for staying alive, assuming you didn't actually drown the person but maybe they aspirated some water and you both lived. This is similar to what the BPD does to loved ones with outbursts that leave the BPD feeling better so they don't understand why everyone is mad.

[Mr Orange]

Yeah, I don't expect her to immediately change all those behaviors. I was addressing Grey Kitty's question of "what behaviors that drove me away would I like to see change?"

I simply told my wife that for this relationship to continue, she would need to agree to counseling. Not because I think that is the 100% answer and things will magically be better all of a sudden, but because it would demonstrate to me that she is willing to at least work on her side of things. I understand that a lot of people practice "radical acceptance" and focus on using tools and adapting their behavior to accommodate their BPD partner and make it possible for the relationship to work. I respect that, it's just not me. Total personal choice, not dissing anyone here. For me, I can't be in a marriage for the rest of my life that has no balance whatsoever. And if counseling is too much to ask of her, then I don't think it's going to work out in the end. I don't think it is a huge ask when a marriage has been on the rocks since day 1, to consider the possibility that *BOTH* spouses have some share of the blame and *BOTH* need to work on some things and to try counseling.

Her father looks like a hollowed out shell of himself. After spending even a little bit of time around their family, namely the mom, I can understand why. I could go on and on about her mother. Sadly, it seems likely that her mother is the reason my wife is BPD. Anyway, her dad told me he did over 10 years of marriage counseling and that he ultimately decided that he could only worry about himself, not his wife's issues. That sounds real good and all, but then you look at them and she hasn't changed one ounce, and he comes across as a man who has been beaten down for years. I'm not down for that.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I too have a MIL that is a monster and I can only assume why my wife is how she is.  I am close with my FIL and he puts up with a ton.  At one point I too decided I didn't want to end up like him.  I have 3 kids and seeing them maybe 2-3 days a week for the next 15 years was unacceptable to me so I made the decision to stay and I don't regret that.  I guess what I am saying is that this gets better with our own improvement, but it ain't pretty and likely will never be in most cases.  There will likely be no 50/50 balance my friend, without extensive rehabilitative therapy for her and that is a reality you need to face.  When in a relationship with someone with BPD you are a co-dependent, that is just how it works in most cases.  Can you be in that environment? 

[waverider]

Stripping it back to basics, what you want is to feel there is genuine effort being exerted.

Your boundary is you dont want to be in a relationship YOU feel like a partner is not making a concerted effort to add something positive to the relationship.

It is about how YOU feel, not what she is doing.

Be careful of saying specific things YOU want HER to do. That is controlling and can be made the subject of workarounds so that ultimately your initial boundary is worked around rather than achieved.

If she is going to change she needs to want to, let her work out how to go about it. I am sure there has been no shortage of suggestions.

The problem with change is it needs to be consistent and ongoing. pwBPD are not good at this and so promises dont usually achieve much.

You need to FEEL positive change is happening before you reconcile. Don't fall into the trap of being expected to define what constitutes "feeling'. It's not usually only one thing, rather a sense, or attitude shift. Its not about fair, its about self preservation.

[Mr Orange]

Waverider,

Thanks. You really put that well. I think what it boils down to is exactly how you said it - that I want to feel like she's putting effort into the relationship being more positive. I think because I feel like my instincts are unreliable given that I feel like I got fooled until after we tied the knot, I think for that reason it's hard for me to trust "feeling" genuine desire to change. I totally understand what you're saying though about making ultimatums and that seeming controlling. I think it was a desperate attempt to get her to see how serious this is and really not knowing what to do. Anyway, thanks again. Some of the best advice I've heard in the last few months.

[waverider]

I think it was a desperate attempt to get her to see how serious this is and really not knowing what to do.

The difficulty is pwBPD are often limited to living for the moment. That is she might see how serious it is for the moment to overcome your immediate demands, but once the crisis of the moment has passed she can change focus and drop the ball again. Back to square one.

This is why you need signs of a personality change so that change comes from somewhere deeper than just a passing need to appease you.

Personality change is hard, and slow, for anyone even without a disordered personality in the first place.

[Mr Orange]

I have definitely seen the living in the moment mindset in action. About 4 months into our marriage I came home to find all of my things neatly packed at the front door for me. I was completely sideswiped. We had been arguing a lot and not getting along, but there had been no discussion of separation or anything like that. She told me that she hoped I would go away and realize the things I needed to change and would come back ready to put the relationship first. I was pretty stunned. I took her seriously, and packed my stuff and went to stay at my folks place. A little later that evening she started contacting me in a panic, saying she was just trying to get my attention and it was all a misunderstanding. It was like she had this idea of getting me to think it was 100% my fault and beg for her forgiveness, but hadn't at all considered what if I actually did leave. We only stayed separated for a few weeks before I returned contingent upon going to couples counseling, which ended up being a big waste of time. Funny how she did the same thing to me back then, but now that I chose to leave unless things change, suddenly it's this horrible wrong that has broken her trust, etc. Lines up with the theme of our relationship which is, one set of rules for me and another set for her.

Posting on these boards has at least helped measure my expectations. I now realize it is pretty unlikely that she will be willing to change, regardless of what is at stake. Thanks again for your insights.

[StayStrongNow]

Mr Orange I just copied and pasted to my notes where it will remain not only on my phone but in mind what your sister told you.

Back on your original post, no one here can tell you what she's going to do. Perhaps it's a waiting game and time to give her space and go and proceed to day 23.

You are a good man Mr Orange, I hope the best for you.

[Mr Orange]

Well, I'm glad to be of some help around here. I've gotten a lot out of these boards over the past few months. Thanks to you for your continued support.

I actually am seeing a new counselor tomorrow, which I'm really encouraged about. I spoke to the woman on the phone and while she happens to be a Christian as I am (which is something I wanted in a therapist), she does not approach therapy through "biblical counseling". She uses Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, DBT, mindfulness, and other traditional psychotherapeutic techniques. This is such a breath of fresh air because the last two counselors I saw, one with my wife a year or so ago, were both through our church and were of no help. It was all about pray, get closer to God, work on your communication. I'm so grateful I've found this woman and I really hope she can help me heal and begin to move forward.