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jrharvey
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« on: July 22, 2016, 10:43:24 AM »

I'm moving back to the improving a relationship because this morning I saw same pretty good progress. Im setting boundaries much better and she is calming herself down and not overreacting how she would in the past.

This morning one of my best friends texted me asking if I wanted to go to a concert with him. She saw me reading the text and of course asked who texted me and I told her. I asked if she would be interested in going if I went. She said... .I thought you changed. There will be a lot of girls there getting drunk and yelling and screaming and acting crazy. You want to go with all those girls there? I thought you were not a party guy anymore. I see your still a party guy. I cant stand a guy like that. I told her... .I went to parties and concerts with you before and I never judged you or put you down. I stayed pretty quiet after that and went on my morning business of getting ready. I was pretty upset about her comments but I didn't say anything. She said... Ok im leaving now and I just said ok and she left out the door. She got in her car and I thought she was going to leave. Next thing I know she came back in and apologized. She said she was very sorry for judging me and also she was happy that I invited her to be a part of my life. She gave me a hug and I hugged her back and said thank you for saying that.

I don't want to get too excited. This doesn't mean everything is changing. The emotional outburst are still happening but she is catching herself. In the past Id probably try to change her mind about what she was saying and get upset that she was leaving so abruptly and rudely but I can see I am changing too.


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joshbjoshb
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2016, 10:50:52 AM »

I don't want to get too excited. This doesn't mean everything is changing.  

It's very possible that all it means is that she is scared of abandonment so she came back. It doesn't mean that she appreciated your comment one bit, or that she realize how wrong she was.

Just saying... .not trying to deflate your excitement. Just don't be too surprised when you will be getting another "test" very soon.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016, 10:55:38 AM »

 I know. I'm very aware there will be plenty of test to come. Im only scratching the surface of setting boundaries. From my understanding it will take months for her to actually get it if she ever truly does.
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016, 11:07:38 AM »

 Yes, that feels great! Just remember, the boundaries are for YOU to stop what you can't handle, not for HER to change. So a way for you to know progress is when you are not so scared of her reaction, when you are leading a pretty happy life.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2016, 11:20:36 AM »

Yes, that feels great! Just remember, the boundaries are for YOU to stop what you can't handle, not for HER to change. So a way for you to know progress is when you are not so scared of her reaction, when you are leading a pretty happy life.

Your right. That was hard for me to understand at first. I was searching for ways I could change her. But I realize now there is absolutely nothing I can do to change her reaction. She is a person and she will choose how she acts. I can only say I have had enough abuse and walk away. After that its up to her to decide if she wants to make things better or not.

The one thing that is tough is I still allow some of her hurtful comments get to me. I don't know if its possible to let her mean comments bounce off of me but that is my goal. Sometimes she says things that upset me. Even if I tell her she is being abusive and leave I still cant stop thinking about it and it ruins my night. She may apologize and ask for forgiveness later but at that moment I am feeling pretty hurt. Maybe that's just how it is but I would like to feel nothing. 
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2016, 11:47:39 AM »

It's worth exploring the question if you are co-dependent. Many of spouses with BPD have it (I have it too). So to a degree, we are our own enemies by not knowing how to be strong and empowered on our own, so we cling to them (without even knowing), and they in turn to us, so we got a vicious cycle... .
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2016, 01:32:23 PM »

Something that might help with the comments is to remember that they aren't actually about you.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2016, 02:54:48 PM »

Something that might help with the comments is to remember that they aren't actually about you.

The actual comments aren't what hurt. Its the fact that she takes actions with intent to purposely hurt. She can get offended about something mindless or unintentional or so small its insignificant and maybe even just a misunderstanding and she fires her entire arsenal of pain at me. The fact that she is like a soldier throwing a grenade with the intent to take as many casualties as possible is what hurts me. The fact that she doesn't seem to love anyone in that moment and just wants to hurt.
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2016, 05:51:36 PM »

That is great progress!

When I finally understood WHY my BPDbf said such hurtful things to me ON PURPOSE, it was like a light bulb went on. I stopped getting so hurt by his comments. I realized it was his unhealthy way of regulating his own emotions. Nothing to do with me.

BPD: I feel pain ~~ I inflict my pain on you ~~ now you feel pain ~~ I feel better
That's one way to do it. Not the healthiest choice, but also not personal. Do you see it?

non-BPD:  She feels pain and is trying to inflict her pain on me ~~ I ignore her words meant to wound me and validate her pain ~~ she feels better, I didn't get hurt <<<< Same result but no one gets hurt

If she is still hellbent on inflicting her pain onto you, just stick to your boundaries. She may not feel better, but you can't change that.
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 04:15:32 AM »

I knew things wouldn't last. All hell broke loose tonight and she took her stuff and left. She literally moved out.

All because I held a boundary. I was talking with my therapist. The conversation lasted an hour and a half. My GF thought that was too long so started blowing up my phone with text. i texted her a nice message and said... ."Still talking to the therapist babe. Im almost done. Ill let you know when i am done". That wasnt enough. She called 5 times before I eventually picked up. She was very upset and said I needed to video call and show her where I was and who I was talking to.

I knew it was a bad idea but i did video call her. i showed her my therapist and they talked for a bit. After i was done talking to my therapist she layed in to me of course. Saying that i didnt care or love her enough to text her and let her know it was taking longer. She just kept saying over and over that I didnt text her so I didnt care.

I held my boundary. I said you are being controlling and your behavior was controlling and abusive. She just kept going on and on and on about how i didnt text her. I tried validation by saying that I understood how she could be worried and I could think about her feelings better next time. Wasnt enough. She decided i needed to be punished so she went out drinking with her friends. I still did not give in. She kept saying i didnt text her and i was wrong but i said I have a right to talk to my therapist without you interrupting and your behavior was controlling and abusive. She ended up saying she couldnt be with a guy like me so I said ok then leave. If you cant be with me Im not stopping you.

Thats what she did. She went home. Packed all her clothes and left. Went and stayed somewhere else. The last text she sent was... ."Goodnight my bae, I love you hahahahahahaha"
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 08:25:09 AM »

I held my boundary. I said you are being controlling and your behavior was controlling and abusive.

This sounds like more of  the same fighting that brought you here. I say this with your well-being first and foremost - don't mislead yourself into thinking that renaming fighting as "boundaries" makes it healthy or constructive.

When your partner dysregulates you want to let the dysregulation extinguish - let the extinction burst return to baseline. Don't fight it, don't validate it, don't reward it, don't judge it. Be warm, be neutral, listen, and give her space to self-regulate.

You can be firm. You don't want to be a doormat. The minute you started the name-calling and shaming, it was "fight on!".

Was she being controlling?  

Was she actually thinking you were stepping out on her and getting worked up?

My guess is the latter and even though you showed her the therapist, she was still flooded with all the emotion from the hour before - she did not have enough time to return to baseline. Any push back on your part was jut going to send this whole thing into hyper-overdrive.

Blowing up like that in front of the therapist is a pretty high level outburst. That potential is always going to be there. She might get better - regulate it 5 out of 7 times - but it isn't going to go away. Can you radically accept that? I'm not saying you should, but it's important to remind yourself, she is who she is, and make your life decisions accordingly. She regulated in the morning. She couldn't do it later in the day.  1 success. 1 failure.

The time to work on values and boundaries is after the fact, when she is calm and in a good place. That's when you bring up - hey, how do we avoid that type of thing that happened a week ago.

She ended up saying she couldnt be with a guy like me so I said ok then leave. If you cant be with me Im not stopping you. That's what she did... .Packed all her clothes and left.

Fighting.
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2016, 01:20:04 PM »

We accidentally escalate matters when we try to reason with a disordered person.

When they are emotionally charged up, all reason goes right out the window. They can be calm and rational again once their emotions settle down, but we can't rush their process. Validation can help, where logic and reason seldom do. When validation fails, the best we can do is avoid the endless no-win arguments and let them calm down in their own time.

How To End Circular Arguments:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016, 01:22:42 PM »

She came back last night. Actually I fell asleep and woke up and she was in my house, standing over me and kissing my forehead. I was very surprised. She was so angry for 2 days straight.

Lots of gaslighting. I was exhausted so I didn't even bother pointing out the gaslighting. Basically she changed the whole story. She was angry because I told her that I was not going to stop my therapy session to talk to her and she kept saying that I should think about her feelings and stop and talk to her. We argued for 2 days straight about that. I held up my position because I do feel very strongly that she needs to learn to handle me not being available for her all the time. She needs to be able to let me do what I need to do sometimes. I cant give her 100% attention all the time. Its just not possible. I said she was gaslighting because she said that we were fighting because I did not understand that she didn't know I was still talking to my therapist. None of that made any sense because if that is true we would not have been arguing for 2 days straight. Of course I knew that she didn't know. That was easy.
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2016, 01:38:31 PM »

Lots of gaslighting. I was exhausted so I didn't even bother pointing out the gaslighting.

Why would you even bother trying to point that out? Do you think it would have helped your situation at all or hurt it?
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 02:52:31 PM »

Why would you even bother trying to point that out?

My therapist said it was important to call her out on her abusive behavior. Gaslighting is a form of abuse. I don't need to beat it in to her but she said I needed to enforce boundaries by saying You are being abusive by doing X and if you don't stop I need to leave.
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2016, 03:23:02 PM »

My therapist said it was important to call her out on her abusive behavior.

You may be misinterpreting this. When the behavior is physical violence, property destruction, hurting the dog, property destruction, high risk behavior (driving in a threatening way), it's important to have zero tolerance and exit.

You are being abusive by doing X and if you don't stop I need to leave.

Even in the cases above, its best not to escalate with labeling or name calling or labeling. It much better to say, "I feel very uncomfortable (unsafe, threatened, etc.) right now, I'm going (for a walk, to a hotel, to Vegas... .)

The time to discuss the matter is after the extinction burst is over.

I said she was gaslighting because... .

This is just labeling and fighting.  I don't think your therapist is suggesting you escalate conflict by taking a polarized position, label her behavior, and slam it back at her... .especially on a soft matter like the recollection of the details of a fight.

You getting caught up in the drama and the minutiae, JR. These details don't matter and don't hold the solution to your relationship.

Your girl has fear-of-abandonment. People with this are jealous and insecure. You are not going to  "call her out" of this. The only hope you have of securing peace in the relationship is understanding it and

1. doing your best not to trigger it
2. accept that she will trigger and you need too do your best not to escalate
3. you two come together around the fact that she has these fears (don't label it, don't minimize it) and get her to agree to handle them in a constructive way when she feels it
4. you two can make specific plans for what to do when it happens (because it will happen, less if you work together, but never zero)
5. you make it clear (in a nice way and at a calm time) that you are with her as long as you two are making progress together (and one bad day doesn't blow that), but you can't stay if it is on a downward trajectory.

The idea of fighting fire with fire with work for a little while JR, but the relationship will collapse in what John Gottman calls the "4 horseman".
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

I have to ask. You seem to be disinterested in the educational material and some of the conventional wisdoms from the experts (NEA-BPD, Manning, Fruzetti, etc.) - why?
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2016, 03:58:17 PM »

Excerpt
3. you two come together around the fact that she has these fears (don't label it, don't minimize it) and get her to agree to handle them in a constructive way when she feels it
4. you two can make specific plans for what to do when it happens (because it will happen, less if you work together, but never zero)
5. you make it clear (in a nice way and at a calm time) that you are with her as long as you two are making progress together (and one bad day doesn't blow that), but you can't stay if it is on a downward trajectory.

We have talked so many times about what to do when she rages. She has said she will do XYZ but it never happens. In the moment she just doesn't have the ability or chooses not to do the things she says she will do. And then after she calms down she always says she should have done things different but then in a few days she does all those things again. Usually after a big fight she swears she will change, go to therapy, go to DBT, do things different next time but it doesn't take long before she decides that's old and she doesn't want to or doesn't have time.

Im not purposely rejecting the material. I have read everything on the site. Maybe I am misunderstanding some things and need to read over everything. Its difficult because sometimes things don't work like they should. Maybe I am doing it wrong. I tried validation a bunch but she blows right over it. She puts me in situations that I cannot validate. For instance. One of the things she seems to love doing is ask questions that imply wrong doing and the way she says it can be demanding. She could say in a very demanding voice... ."Why did you go to the store and what did you need there?" I could start answering her questions such as... .I wanted some milk and eggs. She will go on just asking Why? Why did you need that now? Why didn't you just eat what you had? Why do you need that today? Why didn't you wait till I got home? If I start asking why she is asking she says I don't need to ask her questions but just answer hers. If I try to assume she is insecure and jealous she gets mad because I am assuming. Its a no win situation. She hides her true worries a lot behind these questions that don't make sense. And when I question her at all she says its normal for girlfriends to ask these questions. Its normal because that is what caring girlfriends do. Maybe some girls do ask these questions but if you could hear her voice she is very hot tempered in those situations and even the slightest misword can set her off in a rage.

Something else she does is I wont hear from her for hours while she is at work. If I am at home after work she will randomly call and I will say... ."Hey babe hows it going?" and she will say "Show me the video now". She wants a video call. She demands I walk around the house making sure there are no girls there with me. She tells me to walk outside and show her that no cars are at my house. Sometimes she wants to see closets and things. If I try validation by talking to her she gets angry saying she just wants to see the video and doesn't need me to talk. This is where boundaries come in for me. Ive had to start setting boundaries for her and let her know that its not acceptable behavior and usually she blows up, throws a tantrum and I just let her do her thing. Maybe she will go do some crazy thing but after she always comes back and says... .ok I have been over controlling and I cant keep treating you like that and then apologizes. Then its no longer an issue. To me boundaries seem to be the only way I can keep myself sane in this relationship.


Excerpt
1. doing your best not to trigger it
Ive spent months trying not to trigger her. I was walking on eggshells. The problem is she triggered even when I was just doing things that I NEEDED to do in my life. Hell, going poop triggerd her. Not joking. She accused me of talking to girls in the bathroom. Being in a work meeting triggered her because I couldn't text her back within a few minutes. Some things are impossible to validate or keep her from triggering.
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Meili
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2016, 04:19:12 PM »

Have you read this workshop on How to handle a jealous partner who is also BPD??
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2016, 04:20:25 PM »

Im not purposely rejecting the material. I have read everything on the site. ... //... Its difficult because sometimes things don't work like they should.

These are life skills - it takes a while to master and then it takes a while for them to affect change. Its like learning a golf technique.

Something else she does is I wont hear from her for hours while she is at work. If I am at home after work she will randomly call and I will say... ."Hey babe hows it going?" and she will say "Show me the video now". She wants a video call. She demands I walk around the house making sure there are no girls there with me. She tells me to walk outside and show her that no cars are at my house. Sometimes she wants to see closets and things... .

She has a lot of anxiety. This is pretty silly, stuff. There are really bad boundaries here - both ways (not blaming you - I see the dilemma). I think when things are calm you have to define reasonable and then hold to it in the nicest way possible.

She has said she will do XYZ but it never happens. In the moment she just doesn't have the ability or chooses not to do the things she says she will do.

Yes its somewhere in the middle I would guess. I don't know her, but from reading your file, I suspect this is working for her. I'm not saying its conscious, but you are balancing the turmoil in her mind and you react to her "pressure".

This will take some thinking, but if you can takeaway what she gets out of it - she likely tamp it down a bit.

Any ideas?

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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2016, 04:35:10 PM »

Have you read this workshop on How to handle a jealous partner who is also BPD??

No I have not seen this one. Hmm maybe I need to keep reading more. I read all the tools. I haven't gone through the boards. I will read.
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2016, 05:51:05 PM »

At the end of the day - she has a mental illness. That will never change! IF you can validate, and enforce boundaries appropriately, her behaviours MAY decrease, but they will probably always be there.

That was my error - thinking that if I did everything "right" that her BPD traits would go away. No. They decrease, but they are always there - everyday. You need to accept that.


You also mentioned that after an arguement, she'd come back and gaslight (describe the situation completely differently). If you had a non as a partner, then pointing this out MAY be useful - because a non KNOWS what happened and is deliberately choosing what facts to bring up.

But a BPD is different. For a BPD, the "facts" that don't support her feelings DO NOT EXIST. She's not ignoring them - she actually has NO MEMORY of them at that time. So pointing them out is telling her stuff that appears to be false - which escalates things. I did read this on this site a while back and didn't believe it. But I've "tested" it on my own BPDw and it's true! Later, if she feels different, she can recall the facts again (if they support her new feeling). Takeaway: LOGIC doesn't work! Perhaps it's better to steer clear of the facts - just validate her feelings. If you need to say something, try "I remember things differently" (but this runs the risk of her baiting you into an arguement about what "really" happenned).
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2016, 11:22:44 AM »

Excerpt
But a BPD is different. For a BPD, the "facts" that don't support her feelings DO NOT EXIST. She's not ignoring them - she actually has NO MEMORY of them at that time. So pointing them out is telling her stuff that appears to be false - which escalates things. I did read this on this site a while back and didn't believe it. But I've "tested" it on my own BPDw and it's true! Later, if she feels different, she can recall the facts again (if they support her new feeling). Takeaway: LOGIC doesn't work! Perhaps it's better to steer clear of the facts - just validate her feelings. If you need to say something, try "I remember things differently" (but this runs the risk of her baiting you into an arguement about what "really" happenned).

How can anyone have a functioning relationship like that. Ughhh that's so sad. Basically if I choose to spend my life with her I have to accept that she basically lives in a different world with different rules and different memories of our life together. That's rough.
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2016, 11:41:11 AM »

It's hard to do, but can be done. Acceptance of that fact I mean, JR. Have you read this workshop on Radical Acceptance?

Here's something else to consider, my version of reality is different from your version of reality based on my perspective, my filters, and my experiences.

By way of example, to you, reality is that the sky is blue. To me, it is not actually blue. In fact, it has no color at all. What we see as color is merely the light being refracted and reflected. To you and I, our realities are different. Make sense?
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2016, 12:20:36 PM »

Here's something else to consider, my version of reality is different from your version of reality based on my perspective, my filters, and my experiences.

 Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) Meili, exactly.

if I choose to spend my life with her I have to accept that she basically lives in a different world with different rules and different memories of our life together

 Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) jrharvey I don't think this is what has been said. She lives in the same world as you. She saw the video image of the therapist. If you put a gun to her head, she will tell you the color of his shirt.

We all often don't see past our interpretation of events. We often don't remember things the same as other people. In this case, the video is huge in your mind. The fact that you didn't answer the phone was huge in hers. You have completely blocked out that she was emotionally distraught because she didn't know where you were and you weren't answering the phone. I point this out to show you that you do the same thing - maybe to a lessor extent - but this is not about you being the sane human and her being the alien in all dimensions.

The constructive part of what is being said is to not get hung up on getting her to agree with your perspective. She is emotionally driven.

The second part is to stop calling her out in a confrontational way - its not getting you anywhere.

The third part is don't enable and buy into her version. Setting it straight is not good as I said above. Buying into is also not good.  The difference:

Option 1: What do you mean you don't remember the video of the therapist.  Lets call him right now and he will confirm it. You're gaslighting me. [color=##C2C3C1]You're a freak. (what she will hear)[/color]

Option 2: I get it that you were really upset when I didn't answer my phone. And when I said "leave if you want to", both of us over-reacted. The video doesn't resolve either of these things. We both could have handled this better. (what she will hear)

This is the reality. You are in a relationship with a highly emotional person with extreme abandonment fears. You, too, are pretty reactive and emotional - you get caught in the drama and conflict cycle many times when she goes off script. You can't be "Trump-like" in this type of relationship.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

If you can't weather this type of thing and need to "set the record straight" with JADE (JADE means to justify, argue, defend, and/or explain), you two are going to struggle.
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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2016, 12:57:46 PM »

Excerpt
This is the reality. You are in a relationship with a highly emotional person with extreme abandonment fears. You, too, are pretty reactive and emotional - you get caught in the drama and conflict cycle many times when she goes off script. You can't be "Trump-like" in this type of relationship.

Your right. I do get quite emotional in these situations. What is weird is my whole life everyone always told me I was TOO laid back, too easy going and too difficult to upset. I was always the friend or boyfriend that never got upset about anything. Something about her brings out a side of me that I have never seen before. Me and my therapist are trying to figure that out now. Her theory is that I was loved and begged for attention from my alcoholic dad that could never really be there for me and eventually left when I was 5 basically abandoning me. He showed me a lot of love every day but would turn into a monster at night. Basically this is my GF. My triggers seem to come because my mom was ultra controlling. Way beyond normal and that causes me to react quite emotionally when my GF tries to control me. So now I understand why I love her and why I get so emotionally out of control. I have issues with control and abandonment and it makes me very emotional. I need to learn how to control that myself. I know DBT is mainly for borderlines but I have been learning DBT skills myself and hoping it will help me.
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satahal
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Posts: 165



« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2016, 02:04:54 PM »

JR, just want to say I feel your pain.

I've tried to insulate myself from the accusations and gas lighting and I guess I'm not quite strong enough to not feel pain or anger or a need to clarify. I've improved but I'm far from impervious.

As much as I've tried it hang on to friends and activities I enjoy, even visiting loved ones out of town, the truth is my world has shrunk because I just don't have the energy every time to stick to my guns in the face of the melt downs. I still do some things but far less than I would like.

It's not a normal r/s. It's one in which you are care taking an impaired person.
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