What does he need to hear from me at this point?

[patientandclear]

Last thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295832.msg12779457#msg12779457

To update per Grey Kitty's suggestion to let you know whether he showed up and how gracefully:

He showed up.  We spent a lovely weekend together 10 days ago.

Ever since, it appears he's been plunged into bad feelings.  Centering around "it can't work."  This is his typical pattern: he gets negative and reaches a negative conclusion and asks to be "friends" instead of trying.

This time in the lead up to the visit, we said he'd tell me what he was feeling and I would try not to over-react, and we would go slow and try to make it through difficult feelings.

But he hit the difficult feelings (which, if guessing, I'd say are a combination of "this will fall apart and that will really hurt, better not to try," and "oh my god, if I keep going with this my single/independent life I've made for myself is over;" despite that I am objectively close to the least encroaching potential partner in the history of love and romance) and he's showing no real sign of hanging in there.  He's withdrawn a lot.  He's engaging in light communication now (texts and email even though we agreed during the visit not to do this through email).  Email was the means of communication during our long "friends" period.

(BTW he has pretty much accepted the truth of my position that when we are "friends" it is really me being his unacknowledged intimate partner but in a scenario where he behaves in ways not consistent with partnership, e.g., sudden moves, seeing others.)

Yesterday he sent an email with a gloom and doom meme about how "most things don't work out, and that's OK."  Which he often, perhaps understandably given what he does to relationships, espouses as his life philosophy.

And he is NOT sharing his feelings with me, despite the earlier commitment.

Last weekend he asked to talk though quickly dropped into a chat mode instead because it was more comfortable, and told me he is more comfortable being "friends."  But my long-established position is that I won't do that anymore.  He said briefly he'd be willing to keep trying the romantic relationship scenario "if that's what I need to do to keep you in my life."  Without really thinking I rejected that for a second time (I did the same last year), saying I wouldn't want him to be in bondage like that.

So now, this "things don't work out and that's OK" meme.

What does he need to hear from me?  I know he's having bad/overwhelming feelings.  That was always going to happen.  I thought we were trying, really trying, knowing that that was coming.  Just saying OK and dropping it -- I've done that numerous times before.  It results in 10 months of break, seemingly painful for both of us (he later always talks about how sad he is about it), and then an effort by him that he drops at the first hurdle.

Does he need to be reassured that it will be OK?  (I don't typically do that, pretty much just respect his autonomy by dropping the attempt).  :)oes he need me to show I'm not afraid of his bad feelings?

I'm interested not only in what I might do so this doesn't fall apart again now, but to frame this differently for any future interactions than I have in the past.  In the past, I have tended to decide that he is not showing up in a way that works for me, and I end it fairly quickly and defensively.  After a ton of trauma therapy dealing not only with this relationship, I'm able to hang in there with the ambiguity and de-personalize much better and could indeed hear his cruddy feelings about this without over-reacting.  But he is not trying that.

(I am fully aware that this guy is not well-equipped to be in a relationship!  I'm trying this under what I am well aware are sub-optimal conditions for a long term committed outcome.  I'm trying to give it the best chance I can, for my own reasons explored in excruciating detail on many other threads and which we don't need to discuss here.)

Thanks for any help/insights.  (BTW he is 4 hours away -- I can't just pop over to his place, though I could and would make -- and never have made -- a dramatic drive to his place to talk in person.)

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[Meili]

Hey PaC! 

That all does sound so completely stressful! I too start to feel defensive in situations like what you described. It causes me to shut down and not pay attention to what is actually being conveyed to me. I start to pay attention to only the words used rather than the totality of the meaning.

Does he need to be reassured that it will be OK?  (I don't typically do that, pretty much just respect his autonomy by dropping the attempt).  :)oes he need me to show I'm not afraid of his bad feelings?

This struck a cord with me. Could he be seeing what you're doing as not being emphatic to his feelings and thus invalidating and rejecting him?

Many people shy away from expressing any deep feelings when they are scared or don't feel heard. Do you feel that you are creating a safe environment for him to feel free to express himself?

[Conundrum]

Hi Patient,

Glad you experienced a lovely weekend.

It looks like you're seeking practical advice.

This is speculative, but if I was internally/eternally conflicted (as you state he is), reassurances that it's "ok" (unafraid of bad feelings) would not help. Your certainty/stability (concerning what you want and don't want--through little fault of your own) would inherently pressurize the environment--and a boatload of well meaning reassurances would fall on deaf ears making me feel even more anxiety.

What may help reduce anxiety are ambiguous statements that mirror the ambiguity inside the person (it's a bit counter-intuitive). Consequently, when he goes off on those "memes," responses such as "Let's see how things go--Let's take it one day at a time," may quickly deescalate anxiety while easily allowing a transition to less heavy/downer (more fun)--topics. Yes, those are trite responses--but pwBPD get caught inside those maddeningly heavy emo loops and (all too often) run with them ad nauseam. 

I see nothing beneficial (when there's been a lengthy relational interlude) coming from engaging in those memes with him (this early on), and the sooner you can distract from those minefields the better. Those types of discussions are best suited to a person/couple who are in very structured evidence based therapy--though even then in measured doses.

[patientandclear]

Too late! He announced he can't do a romantic relationship today and asked that I be his friend. There you go, Green Kitty (see post on other thread linked above).

[Conundrum]

Aww... .Patient, I'm sure that hurts and is frustrating--even when predictable.

Investing in an untreated/unstable person is a game of chance mixed with winning and losing hands.

When we've known our pwBPD for a good deal of time--the cumulative experience (over time) may be more indicative of the (couple's) bond, or lack of bond, than any temporal moments in time that define the status of the relationship. Though weathering the pain and/or transcending suffering is another story.

Inevitably, regardless of the non's gender it seems that the stable party must lead in these relationships. I can neither control my pwBPD's emotions nor her actions--although I can lead via my own actions, thoughts and feelings.

What will your reaction be to his most recent vagaries? Do you want to seize on his declarative statement as being definitive--or apportion it less import? There are a number of options concerning how you can react to that statement. Keep your chin up.


   

[Grey Kitty]

Awwww... .sorry to hear that! I really didn't WANT to be "right" in any way about something like this.

Too late! He announced he can't do a romantic relationship today and asked that I be his friend.

Maybe too late. Or maybe saved by the bell. Dunno. I found this topic when this was current, but upon reading your first post on this topic, I was starting to think to myself: "This is all about him, there's not really much of anything P&C can do about it."

Maya Angelou's famous quote applies here:

When people show you who the are, believe them.

This man cannot be in a (stable) romantic relationship.

  How are you feeling about him today?

[myself]

Perhaps what he really needs to hear is, "OK, let's just be friends," without the (albeit gentle, understanding, etc.) push and pull. Which is what he's (mostly) been saying for quite awhile now. If you can sincerely offer and share that with him, that is, given the feelings, patterns, and history involved.

To turn it around a bit, what do you think You may need to hear to be able to make your own next best moves/radically accept this?

[patientandclear]

Myself--that doesn't work for me.  I decided a long time ago (2.5 years) that I could not be his friend as he wants to do that, because he very effectively and somewhat craftily engineers things to gain access to an intimate place in my life that I don't put friends in, let alone a former lover whom it was not my choice to leave. I don't tell him yes to friends because it doesn't work for me based on trying twice and long history. Indeed, once we're just "friends," it's as if the brakes are off on his intimacy regulator. I can enforce those boundaries but to what end? To ensure we maintain a superficial friendship that cannot grow? It feels especially cruddy to shut him down because I love that interaction; it's not the usual situation where we permit what we enjoy and not what we don't.

I had been cruising along for 11 months, not happily, but effectively, without him. I did not push him to resume contact against his principles. I haven't changed the terms on which I'm willing to be connected to him. He seems uncertain whether he wants to do those terms or not, and every 10-11 months he comes around saying he'll do whatever it takes, and I say don't do me any favors, and he gets put off by some small or large thing I do, and is suddenly no longer interested in doing whatever I need, and now again wants to be "friends."

Conundrum, great point about how it may be less momentous than it feels. It was sad and painful for a minute because I really thought we were maybe doing something else. Much was better and different. Then suddenly he vanished into silence and when he returned it was all very much the same.  ... .What I decided to do was acknowledge that I respect his boundary, and reiterated mine: can't be "friends;" can do an ambiguous unnamed intimate connection but not if he is pursuing other women. That's been my position for a long time now so it won't be a surprise. If not, I can't be connected with him more than casually, as he knows but chronically "forgets."

GK, your conclusion appears inescapable :/ I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him. I was mad yesterday because of the effort and the waste, but today it just feels sad and futile.

[patientandclear]

Just to add one more point to my answer to "maybe what he needs to hear from you is that you'll be his friend."

It's not good for him (setting aside even that it's terrible for me) for him to be able to take what he wants from me with promises of effort and caring and then to renege on those at the first hurdle and still get what he was after in the first place. And it's not good for either of two people for one of them to put themselves in a position of being hurt because it's gratifying to the other.

I started saying to him a ways back that what we need and can give don't match and so far that has always proven true. He keeps not being able to give what he keeps suggesting maybe he will give. Sometime soon I may stop being curious about whether that will continue to be true next time.

[myself]

^ Agreed.

What he 'needs to hear' and what you can actually 'say' may not ever line up.

What made you think it might be different this time around?

[patientandclear]

Oh I see -- Myself, I had misunderstood what you said initially. I still don't think he "needs" to hear something that succumbs to his emotional manipulation. Some wise poster here said on one of my last threads months ago that he wants that ... .But he needs honest and loving responses that do not yield unhealthy arrangements that he feels that he wants.

Why did I feel it would be better/different? I was much less fear-based and reactive. I was able to deal better with his reactions, without experiencing them as a personal rejection. I was less hesitant about doing/saying things that might make him uncomfortable. I was a better listener.

I also was impressed that he sent me an article (many of you have probably read it) about how we all need to accept that we'll be settling for something different than our fantasy romantic partners (but more real and potentially better). I thought this reflected important insights and gave us a framework for expectations.

As it turns out, I don't think he's really accepted that the best possible r/ship isn't going to feel perfect, and that his own feelings will attack the closest of r/ships.

[Grey Kitty]

GK, your conclusion appears inescapable :/ I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him. I was mad yesterday because of the effort and the waste, but today it just feels sad and futile.

I'm thinking that this time is different... .for you.

Previous cycles, you were broken hearted when he ran away or got involved with another woman... .and you also had big regrets over how you handled things on your side.

Do you feel like you did things "right" this time? (Never mind what he did!)

I know I felt like I really learned things in the end of my marriage that I needed to know, and that I hope will help me in a future relationship. (Haven't had a romantic relationship since, so the acid test is yet to come!)

[lar, laris]

I'm very sorry to hear of your current disappointment, patientandclear.  It seems that you have been dealing with this for a long time, and although you've been learning and growing yourself along the way, it's been very hard.    I'm new and don't have any words of wisdom or good questions, but I wanted you to know I relate to your situation quite particularly, and my thoughts are with you.
lar, laris

[patientandclear]

GK, your conclusion appears inescapable :/ I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him. I was mad yesterday because of the effort and the waste, but today it just feels sad and futile.

I'm thinking that this time is different... .for you.

Previous cycles, you were broken hearted when he ran away or got involved with another woman... .and you also had big regrets over how you handled things on your side.

Do you feel like you did things "right" this time? (Never mind what he did!)

I know I felt like I really learned things in the end of my marriage that I needed to know, and that I hope will help me in a future relationship. (Haven't had a romantic relationship since, so the acid test is yet to come!)

No GK, not sure it is any different. I'm having big regrets and can't sleep because I screwed this up again and it may be five years before we would get back to a this point again. I can see that the first reply here was correct that I needed to validate when he gave me the smallest opening (in the chat session, when he said we should be friends instead because he was sure if we kept going down this road it would fall apart and then we'd lose everything and that is not OK). Instead of asking why he felt it was certain to fall apart and go from there with validation, I started reiterating that I can't be "friends." And he got more and more committed to his position that it doesn't work romantically. And now here we are, in NC for however long until I meet some other person to love (hasn't happened in a decade other than him despite my general openness) or he reaches out again to find out of I've changed my mind about friends.

I also can see that if i'd just sat through the subsequent days/weeks of uncertainty he might have steadied enough to proceed with our plan despite his stated misgivings about how it would be better to be friends. By making him commit to a path (I asked in response to the gloom and doom email I described in the opening post whether we were still "trying", I pretty much forced him to commit to a position and it was predictably a position of ending.

So no--I would not say I am in a better place on this. I am still not good enough at interacting with him to not cost us the rare chances. In my favor I'll say I'd have done better if he'd let us talk in real time, but the insistence on chat makes it much harder for me to ask questions rather than just react, for some reason.

[Grey Kitty]

    The loss is so tough to bear, even if you don't blame yourself for it. That you aren't able to sleep sounds pretty natural and normal. That you are torn up does too.

Actually, blaming yourself sounds like a pretty "normal" thing to do, even if it doesn't seem to be healthy or accurate from my side of the computer screen. Try to be gentle with yourself and take good care of you when those feelings come up. 

No GK, not sure it is any different. I'm having big regrets and can't sleep because I screwed this up again and it may be five years before we would get back to a this point again. I can see that the first reply here was correct that I needed to validate when he gave me the smallest opening (in the chat session, when he said we should be friends instead because he was sure if we kept going down this road it would fall apart and then we'd lose everything and that is not OK). Instead of asking why he felt it was certain to fall apart and go from there with validation, I started reiterating that I can't be "friends." And he got more and more committed to his position that it doesn't work romantically.

Last week you wrote this:

I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him.

Yes, it is sad to lose this r/s again, and you will grieve, but it feels different (at least to me), knowing that I did my part right, and tried one more time and did my best.

Remember--you may have to do the emotional heavy lifting in this r/s because of his limitations... .but if he can't do ANY of the work, you can't do it all for him... .and I can't imagine you would be happy in that even if you could!

And now here we are, in NC for however long until I meet some other person to love (hasn't happened in a decade other than him despite my general openness) or he reaches out again to find out of I've changed my mind about friends.

The result is true, but have you gone out looking as an available woman? Or were you still hoping this r/s would/could/should work even when you tried during the breaks?

I'm betting it will take a good bit more grieving and processing for you to be ready for that. (And don't feel bad about going on a few dates when you aren't sure, or finding out after going out on a date that you are less ready than you thought... .that is part of the process for most of us!)

[patientandclear]

My view has shifted on whether I contributed to the collapse here. As noted above, I think had I waited out his often-long dysregulation period, he may have found himself more interested in hanging in there on our project of trying a real relationship. Calling the question prematurely was a bad call, I'm pretty sure. Makes it harder for me to accept the outcome somehow.

As to alone-ness -- I've been "available" for years. There's no one out there. I'm 50. For all y'all who are men or younger women, I gotta say, you may understate the severe change in the dating landscape once you are a straight woman over 50. Or even in upper 40s. It's just not an auspicious landscape. It is a real possibility that I will be alone, regardless of my own openness or availability. That too makes it harder to give up on this very challenging scenario. When I was 25 I would have been done with this by now because I'd be seeing someone else eventually.

[Grey Kitty]

How many often-long dysregulation periods of complete rejection/NC do you want to keep waiting through? They aren't stopping. In a functioning relationship, he has an obligation to manage his feelings better than going away for months even if you DO say the wrong thing.

I think that trying a "real relationship" with him is going to involve (at best) months of being rejected like that. That's who he is, and he will find a reason to do it.

Knowing that I'm always one "bad call" away from months of rejection isn't something I'd want to live with in a relationship.

I ended one relationship specifically because we couldn't negotiate anything emotionally intimate successfully. I *think* it was her issue, that she was incapable of asking for what she wanted in a way that was achievable, and instead asked for something that wasn't quite what she wanted and wasn't quite possible, and when refused or when it failed, she got so flooded with her emotions that she couldn't even remember what was said, other than the feelings of rejection/panic/whatever.

My conclusion was that I *thought* was communicating well, and it was on her... .but whether I was doing it right, or doing it wrong, it was becoming 100% clear that the two of us couldn't communicate successfully on this issue, and I needed to not be in a relationship where this kind of communications always failed.

And that's what I see you experiencing--your fault (unlikely), his fault (likely), 3% yours, 97% his (even more likely), it doesn't really matter. The point is that it always blows up. I don't see that changing.

Do you think he's going to change?

Do you think that anything you could possibly do would lead him to behaving differently? (Besides not taking him back)

As to alone-ness -- I've been "available" for years. There's no one out there. I'm 50.

If you mean you don't like the guys you do you see out there, I could believe that. But there are guys out there interested in/looking for women who are 50 (or older) [Aside: I'm not going to proposition you, but I am one myself, a year younger, and consider women 5~10 years older or younger than myself to be likely or reasonable matches] I also know other women at and above your age who are finding guys to date. Can think of one new and wonderful relationship too, but more in the dating realm right now. (There certainly are many in the dating pool to throw back in, and they are finding that!)

I'd also go out on a limb and say I really doubt you are projecting "available". My stbexW [52, and not far from average in the physical attractiveness scale for her age] was a master at being flirty/available, and got a LOT of interest. (I'm not close enough to her today to know if she's still doing it or not... .nor am I concerned, 'tho she isn't in a new relationship that I'm aware of. Not my problem now.)

[patientandclear]

Hi GK-- thanks as ever for the dialogue.

I didn't really mean I can't find men to date.  I mean it's so unlikely there will be someone whom I find interesting and complementary in the way I do the man I write about here.  I'm in a weird place in life for romantic connection -- I'm a powerful woman in my sphere and most people are afraid of/intimated by me, and that kind of power is just not very sexy to all that many men.  Of those who can deal, many are pretty messed up   Does that make sense?  There are conquest issues or other power dynamics that are just very distorting.

I'm just being realistic.  If I were 25 I would have dropped this likely BPD r/ship long ago.  Now, it is, disturbingly, possibly the most interesting and best option I have for meaningful companionship.  We talk a lot about radical acceptance on here but I rarely see that applied with clear eyes to this question.  Women at this age are looking at a life alone unless something unusual happens.  And sure, it could.  And yes I am open.  I'm not waiting for this guy.  But it's hard to conclude that the idea of him and me figuring something out might not be the best chance I have of not existing completely outside the realm of romantic companionship for the rest of my life.  That is an awkward fact but, I think, still a fact.

I'm not interested in dating to date.  I'm not interested in companionship just to have a partner.  I don't need it and have spent much of my adult life alone (though in my time have also had many partners).

I hear you that the r/ship he and I occasionally attempt is pretty messed up and non-optimal.  This is true!  However, I would like to optimize it, if that makes sense.  I would like to not compromise whatever small chance we have of things turning out in a way that brings relative happiness to both of us.

[Grey Kitty]

I hear you that the r/ship he and I occasionally attempt is pretty messed up and non-optimal.  This is true!  However, I would like to optimize it, if that makes sense.  I would like to not compromise whatever small chance we have of things turning out in a way that brings relative happiness to both of us.

I see a large chance that you can continue as you've been going, with alternating friendship/intimacy and periods of NC from him. You get all the good things he brings to the table when he's there, and then he takes them all away.

And I don't see you sounding at all happy or peaceful about accepting him this way--instead you seem to be clinging to the hope that you can somehow say just the right thing, and he won't run away next time.

He's too insecure/threatened/whatever to make and keep that kind of commitment. You said that after a delightful visit, this round blew up when he clammed up/shut down instead of communicating his feelings with you despite making a commitment to do exactly that!


On the other part--I agree that who you are and what you want limits your pool of good dating prospects. That said, there are men who would be interested out there. I personally am not at all intimidated by strong women. All that I've been involved with were, some were professionally successful, and I've got female friends who are easily as professionally powerful as you are.

My take: The one critical thing that keeps you from finding any other romantic relationships (after a search!) is that you still hope this will become one, and some part of your heart is holding on for it.

[Jessica84]

I'm so sorry patientandclear. I can really relate to this. My "I just can't" bf has done this to me before, many times! Frustrating and painful. He has similar attitudes as yours when things aren't good --- that everyone grows apart and ALL relationships fall apart, eventually. Well, considering "we" could "grow apart" several times in one day, I had a hard time buying his worldview! It's true that some couples do grow apart, but not in the way he thinks. He didn't seem to grasp the concept that it's more of a slow, gradual process.

So whenever I got this push from him, I constantly waited for him to act on this grim belief. If we agreed to 'work' on us it always failed. Too hard for him. Overwhelmed him into scary unfamiliar territory. Talk about his feelings? You'd think I asked him to do open heart surgery on himself! Easier to pull the plug and fall back on his beliefs so it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. I kept getting hurt and disappointed.

So I read about radical acceptance. I stopped fighting it and let him believe whatever he wants -- I'm a jerk, the sky is purple, elephants have wings, and ALL relationships are doomed. OK. I don't have to share his beliefs. I don't have to change them, or sell him mine.

Every r/s is unique. But if I can give you one molecule of hope, it's that over time some of my bf's beliefs have  changed - slowly (very slowly) evolving into more like mine - that relationships CAN work, that they CAN last, and CAN be very rewarding. Even in hard times. But this came without a single talk about how we're going to work on 'us'.

Have you tried not trying? (Sorry can't think of a better way to word that  )
I mean like, letting go of expectations? Sometimes giving up our struggle to change things is the best thing we can do. And maybe if we change/let go, they will feel safe enough to follow our lead.

I'll agree with GK on the other -- Your age and power will not hold you back. Those are bonuses! It's your investment in this man that might. Madonna is as hot today in her 50s as she was 30 years ago.

[patientandclear]

Thanks Jessica! I did try not trying a few years back. But HE  proactively seems to need to put a label on things. He needs to tell me that it is not romantic, but it is just friends. And even that wouldn't bother me, except that to him, what comes along with that is denying the significance of our connection, and dating others.  That was super painful to me, and has been my own boundary for the last 2 1/2 years. He has finally really registered what I mean about that, that if we are going along with our intimate partner-like connection, even without a label, what that means for me is that he's not dating anyone else. He seems to still have aspirations to find something better out there, and does not want  that limitation.

It's somewhat surprising to me that he won't just try, without a label, but also, without dating others, for a little while at least, to see what it could be for us. I suspect it would work out pretty well, even if we never really see eye to eye about what it should be called.  The approach that you recommend is the one I thought we would experiment with this time. This is why I think I sort of blew it by asking him what we were doing in the middle of last week. It feels like I forced him to make a declaration, when I should've just let it rest. When were just  being ourselves, without the pressure of definition, it's super fun.

[Jessica84]

Yup. Grass is greener syndrome. Commitment phobia. Whatever you want to call it. 

When mine saw greener grass and suddenly we're "just friends" I cut off contact. I had to. Not because of a boundary, more like self-preservation? I couldn't hear about it. Friends talk about their lives. Lives include relationships. For me to be "just friends" would take years, not the day after a breakup!

Mine labels too. Black and white thinking. I try not to fret the label, except for the "friend" label when it doesn't actually mean that - when it means keeping me around in case it doesn't work out with someone else.

Let me ask you this... .with everything you know about him and BPD, would you say that just anyone  could validate him as well as you? I think not.

This is where I take some comfort. Mine still has a degree of commitment-phobia. But somewhere, deep down, he knows he'll never get the validation he gets from me from anyone else. He can find someone younger, prettier face, laughs at all his jokes. But I say blah blah blah... .that's not what he really wants... .and he knows it!

Don't beat yourself up for pressuring him. You wanted to know where things stood, where they were headed. Understandable. I've done it too... .but have learned the hard way it doesn't work with him. Just pushes him to some strange place in his head. I much prefer the super-fun-who-cares-where-we're-headed label 

[patientandclear]

You're very kind, Jessica, thank you!

That's why I'm confounded here. I too prefer the super fun who cares where we're headed motif. It's just that in the case of this particular man, I've played that out and despite our seemingly fantastic relationship, he still started seeing others, not being very overt with me about that, suddenly moved cities and acted like I was crazily possessive because I asked him why he did that.  So in this case the "friends" label facilitates certain choices by him. It's hard for me to imagine it won't go that way again if I'm not clear where the boundary is being crossed.

When he calls it "friends" in light of that backdrop, playing it out seems like self-abandonment: signing up for the exact same thing that happened before and this time knowing.

If he could just stop at "ambiguous" we'd be fine.

[waverider]

If he could just stop ... .xxx... .we'd be fine.

This is the BPD trap for magical thinkers... We have all said it

[Jessica84]

That's the kind of "friend" I could never be. When it means "standby".

I have only been "friend" when it meant "I'm so screwed up no one should be around me and I want to die".

I had to do a lot of listening (and some mind-reading) to define it for myself. I feel for you. Wish I had something more comforting to say.

 

[patientandclear]

Yes, standby is a good word for it. Thanks for confirming my sense of yuckiness ... .There really is a huge difference between "your central role in my life is uncontested but I need to back off the definition," versus "I use you for emotional fulfillment and stability while I profess eternal love for other women."

It really does help to hear that my limits make sense to others, especially when he constantly acts puzzled and sort of sad about them and some others can't see why I wouldn't just accept the friends resolution. Thank you!

[patientandclear]

If he could just stop ... .xxx... .we'd be fine.

This is the BPD trap for magical thinkers... We have all said it

Touche.  To be clear, hoping that this will occur is not a plan I'm entertaining!

[patientandclear]

Don't beat yourself up for pressuring him. You wanted to know where things stood, where they were headed. Understandable. I've done it too... .but have learned the hard way it doesn't work with him. Just pushes him to some strange place in his head. I much prefer the super-fun-who-cares-where-we're-headed label 

This is actually the sticking point for me.  I have compassion for myself here -- the amount of apparent rejection that has gone on in this r/ship far surpasses anything I would have thought anyone should stick around for, especially someone coming out of the past history of abuse that I have.  It's not that I think I was a bad person or that it's not understandable that I pushed for clarification.

However -- this particular relationship could not afford that mistake.  As the smoke clears and my feelings get a little less raw, I can see that he was trying to hang in there.  Unlike the past, he was not overtly rejecting us as a romantic partnership.  He had said he wanted to ... .but he had not yet quite pulled the trigger.  I think if I'd just sort of ignored the question we might have gotten through that most difficult passage where his relationships usually collapse.

And I KNEW that!  I'd made notes to myself not to push him or argue with his feelings, and to wait.

But I didn't.  And now that he's doubled down on "a romantic relationship doesn't work for me," it could be years before he is open to revisiting.  It would be embarrassing for him to admit that might have been a mistake, even if (as I suspect) he begins having doubts about how all this went down.

It's just really sad to consider that I might have missed the very small window for getting us to a different platform than we've been all for so long.  It is so fun when we are just doing our thing.  Because of my boundary enforcement and his very explicit statement now that friends is all that is on the table (again) and his explicit interest in preserving his ability to see others, I can't even have the kind of low level contact that could let things subtly shift.  He views that low level contact as an acceptance by me of his cruddy terms.

Really wish I had not hit send.

[Conundrum]

Patient, if wishes were fishes we'd all be kicking back in Margaritaville instead of diving for invertebrates. Though, more than likely the present interlude is not a denouement, but a small cluster of tiles within the broader mosaic of a dynamic play. However, becoming weary of protracted interludes is the crux. After all--we have been with/are with--people resembling Schnabel plate paintings. From a distance beautiful and fascinating, though when viewed too close those fragmented shards may rip to shreds. 

You've been here before. Clearly perceive. This is not unfamiliar terrain. There may be a chance at breaking the cycles which are not working. Synthesis in disordered relationships is always born from thesis/antithesis. I get the impression that somehow you've become reluctantly wedded to certain relational conditions/methodology that he has set. No real time phone conversations, texting etc. Aren't those his conditions and not yours? Do they really work in a somewhat LDR?  To me that seems obstructionist and would prevent easy, simple and natural relational communication.

PwBPD (untreated) are neither wedded to their feelings, actions or thoughts--in consistently linear manners. They are haphazard. Assigning apocalyptic import to this recent development is a construct. Your construct--because it has become familiar terrain between the both of you. Yet, he does not possess the wherewithal to break this dynamic--however, you do. Shake things up--by not falling into his disordered frame. If you're feeling unhappy over the present course of events--then attempt to change them. Enough with the relationship talk, the tortured musings that leave you feeling empty. Be proactive--via action and less words. For example, if the present falling out suxs for you, then change it. Be selfish. Contact him and inform him that "we're going away for a weekend to have a blast and you're coming--right." If he says no, say "damn I don't want to make plans with someone else--gotta go." Or, "I made reservations at a restaurant (somewhere halfway between your locals) for Saturday night at 7:00pm--be there or be square, cuz I'm going to rock your world etc. Something along those lines. The point is, be spontaneous by setting up some event/action that you want to do with him and take selfish pleasure out of it--and order him to attend! (kinda joking but something like that). And leave the heavy talk alone while living to fight another day. Another decent technique is acting in ways in which he would never expect from you--be unpredictable, less readable, while still feeling that you're being authentic to your essential essence.

Finally, I have to say, I really feel for the women who find themselves here. While pwBPD can be high maintenance regardless of gender, in some ways I think it's even harder when the BPD partner is a man. When mixing testosterone into the picture--their intransigence towards being led or nudged in a healing direction seems super relationally difficult. If only these BPD guys could appreciate the pearls they're rejecting... .     

                           

[Jessica84]

Wow, great insights Conundrum!

Yes, being with a BPD man is almost unnatural. Men expect women to be emotional - men dating a woman with BPD just amplifies that... on steroids! But women expect men to be more rational. After all, WE get to be the emotional creatures, MEN get to be the calm logical ones. That's the natural order of things! I resorted to dealing with him as if he were the woman, I am the man. I have to admit, I much prefer it. Causes me to pause and think and not act on every feeling now! Some of the outbursts from him I can seen in my past self.

Patient - has he stated he intends to pursue other women, now that you're just friends? Has he mentioned anyone in particular? Mine has expressed this to me after a break up/just friends talk - when there was already someone who peaked his interest, not just a general desire to start dating other people. But other talks times because he felt engulfed by the r/s and knew he couldn't give me any more than he already was. Still other times, it was because of our endless bickering... .another time he was suicidally depressed and didn't want to see anyone. They all have different patterns. Do you know which it is for him?

[myself]

Didn't you already try, at his suggestion even, to be the one making plans to do things together, but then he resisted it/disappeared? Is this a case of you think you know him better than he knows himself, and if you can find the right combination he will change his mind (and not change it back again!) and be more than 'friends' with you? So many troubled relationships boil down to the people trying too hard to control the story, whether that's from fear or the best intentions. Sharing love just shouldn't be so difficult. Best of luck though.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

Conundrum: brilliant post as usual. I hear you that none of these seemingly final resolutions really are the final word. I'll take that to heart. And yes, you're right that I don't have to accept his framework; when I've just acted as makes sense to me, I make more sense to myself and find my feet more, for sure. I really like your reminder that I can do and suggest what I want to.

But I have a question ... .The problem we have is not that he doesn't want to do stuff with me. He does. He loves doing stuff with me! But only in the framework of friends. And I know from the past that he feels this allows for him to pursue other women, and I am again on notice from his recent remarks that he feels this is an active option. So ... .How is my active pursuit of partner-ish time with him within his current framework not a complete abandonment of my boundaries? How would I even be intelligible to him and to myself if I did that?

I think of this analogously to how you've described your situation in the last with the BPD woman in your life: you have expressed that you have limits on what you do with her if/when she is seeing other people, different limits than you otherwise might. I feel like I have to have similar emotional bumpers and limits, markers of a level of intimacy I would only offer to an exclusive partner. Does that make sense to you from your own practice? It just seems like throwing all boundaries and limits up in the air will be very confusing both to me and to him. Maybe it WOULD "work" better almost by accident because it would be fun and exciting. But it feels like it would undo years of laborious communications of very real limits around intimate access to me.

For Jessica: I don't know if he has a person in mind. I doubt it--I suspect that his loneliness is in part responsible for him reaching out to me a couple months ago. But he clearly wants to preserve his "right" to date others at the same time that we're developing our whatever-it-is. If this was a brand new r/ship I would not think much of this; but again, we have a well established history of him engaging me as if we are in a primary r/ship until he has a blip in feeling at which point he turns to the "friends" definition as a defense against any expectations or any surprise on my part that there is another woman in the picture.

[patientandclear]

After reflecting more on the suggestions about sort of ignoring his stmts about what this is and what he wants it to be/is open to: I find it difficult to reconcile that with my actual love for/care for him. His childhood issues were complex but revolve around never being heard, never being able to draw lines and have them be respected and honored. His great fear (albeit mostly subconscious I think) in adult relationships is that that will inevitably repeat. Many of the most thoughtful pieces about BPD and related dysfunctions have to do with this compulsive need to assert a separation btwn them and the "invading" other, regardless of whether the other is actually invading (there's a section of "Why We Struggle In Our Relationships" addressing this, for instance).

I don't want to repeat his childhood patterns. Ignoring his stated boundaries and wishes seems at odds with loving and respecting him. I don't think he's defining those in a way that ultimately serves him, but that is his business.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi P&C, 

I read this thread with interest, seeing so many good responses. If I'm following you correctly, you are wishing for a more committed relationship than what your SO is willing to commit to. He wants to remain friends, and you don't feel as that is something you are able to do. Are you looking for a more intimate relationship with him, emotionally speaking I mean?

In my own relationship, I've come to recognize the desire I have to connect emotionally with DH. It has taken me forever and a day to recognize this, but I'm finally figuring it out. It's tough, isn't it? At times it seems hopeless, and sounds like you ride the up and down roller coaster too. As strongly as you hope for the relationship to continue, do you know what needs of your own you hope to have met by him?

 
Wools

[patientandclear]

Hi Woolspinner: well, it's not exactly that I want a more intimate relationship emotionally. Our relationship is very emotionally intimate; that has never been the problem. Almost the opposite. It's emotional closeness is not matched by any acknowledgment by him of its intimate character. He calls it "friends" though increasingly speaks of it as "this precious relationship" or "this amazing friendship." When we're actually together doing things or communicating regularly, it's great. We both seem to think so and find it very satisfying.

The problem is that with that kind of connection and primary role (when we are in touch it's a daily partner-ish thing), I'm no longer comfortable with him calling it "friends," because in the past that has turned out to mean that he acts like he has no idea why I have any expectation of continuity, and he can see other women. (Not that he openly does so--he conceals that from me, and did even when we were explicitly friends and there were no arrangements that we not see other people.)

Basically, he engages me as an unacknowledged emotional partner, in a de facto open relationship, but none of these terms are open or discussed. If I ask to talk about the arrangement he refuses and if I condition going forward on talking he disappears (for 11 months last year). The best description I can give is that so long as he can keep us in the friends box and rebuff any other claim i might have on him, the sky is the limit on what we can discuss, what he will share, how intensely we can engage.

Compounding the challenge, we were lovers before we were friends, and in a typical BPD first round, it was joyous and intense and passionate and ended suddenly and traumatically and without a clear reason. There is also an atmosphere of sexual charge and challenge in the "friendship" when we're communicating.

I don't care what we call it but I don't want to participate in an open r/ship and I want the primary nature of the r/ship to be acknowledged. This would not matter to me if we'd just met, but we're five years in and it doesn't feel appropriate to be a concealed/secret partner. Without those adjustments I've been declining to be his intense emotional partner for the last 2.5 years. Though we've tried to fix this a few times since, but so far have not been able to line up what he feels good about and what I feel good about.

I hope that answers your question ... .

[Woolspinner2000]

Thanks P&C for your helpful response. I can see why you would be unsure of your standing and desire for clarification, and the frustration with the relationship, especially after 5 years. Kudos for you to for taking care of yourself and seeing the importance of "declining to be his intense emotional partner for the last 2.5 years." It's important that you take care of yourself and see where you can make changes since you won't be able to change him.

Sounds like you are centering in on what you want and don't want in the relationship. If he agrees to acknowledge the relationship between the two of you in the way that you are looking for (but I hear you saying you don't think this will happen), then what? What is next for you?

If he isn't willing to acknowledge your relationship, I'd ask the same question: then what? What is your next plan?

Wools

[patientandclear]

If he took me up on any of the ways forward I offered, none of which are of the "ring on my finger" variety, we'd go forward figuring it out as we go and hopefully, having good experiences that show that this is not scary and won't lead to the catastrophic outcomes he predicts. No sign of him saying yes though. Just now, we're not communicating  and he's taking as firm as stance as he used to on "this is not a romantic r/ship." Given that, I have felt for the last several years that doing any of the nice things that make up our connection sends a message that I am OK with these terms, which are essentially emotional FWB, and I'm not.

So we would seem to be stuck again.

I don't have any plans about the way forward except to live the rest of my life as if he is not going to be in it. I'm super bummed to have seemingly missed this brief opening in which there was not a pre-conceived limit and we could have sorted it out gently over time. I do think I contributed to the end of the window by calling the question and that is sad for me.

I have, in the past, tried just engaging him on his terms. The more on his terms we are the more rapidly he wants a deep partner-ish relationship. If I then ask to clarify he has refused to talk. I'd rather not be in this Cold War stand off but whenever I open the door even a bit he comes roaring through in a way that then ends up confusing me about what he wants and him about what I will allow. I wish I knew a way to maintain what is good in a way that did not muddy boundaries disastrously but I don't. The heartbreaking part of that for me is that what we do when on his terms is really great ... .Growth-infused, better and better over the years--except for the whole thing where he is actively looking for a life partner on the side. He is not like some folks pwBPD on here who say they want to do that but don't. He's an active seeker and he finds plausible partners.

[Grey Kitty]

I've got a thought experiment for you, P&C.

What if you found another guy to be in a romantic relationship with? (Setting aside both whether you are ready and how hard to find you believe it is)

What kind of relationship would you want with your BPD guy then?

[patientandclear]

I could not possibly do what he wants--daily intimate exchanges, very charged, very romantic in quality though not overtly. When I try to limit what we do to legit "friends" territory he pushes past that, hard.

That wouldn't square with a r/ship with another partner.

[Grey Kitty]

I guess my question is more about what you would want to do with him if you were in another relationship?

I do agree he would push you hard, at least when he wasn't vanishing for months.

Would you want to put up a rock-solid boundary not letting him push you to something inappropriate?

Would you want to just let him stay away / push him away? And if so, how distant?

Would you think your only viable option is to cut contact completely?

[patientandclear]

He actually does not disappear unless I am asserting some kind of boundary. As long as I allow the intimate dynamic, he's around daily. This is why I describe that dynamic as akin to his operating system--it appears to be stabilizing and something he relies on.

I don't have an ideal state with him if I were in a r/ship. The constant policing of the barricade is a lot of work and it results in something of questionable value dos the effort. Without the policing it can be quite meaningful, but also would be incompatible with another r/ship in my life. The easiest way to handle would be to have polite Christmas and birthday contact; no, absolute NC is not necessary as far as I'm concerned.

[Grey Kitty]

He actually does not disappear unless I am asserting some kind of boundary. As long as I allow the intimate dynamic, he's around daily. This is why I describe that dynamic as akin to his operating system--it appears to be stabilizing and something he relies on.

I hate to rain on your hopes with him... .but as I understand your story, he's been very consistent with that one, at least ever since the end of your "traditional" relationship the first time 'round, he's done this for a few years now--daily intimate contact with no commitment, or NC / silent treatment if you don't allow that.

He does claim that you are "friends"... .but... .I've got friends who are similar, although the contact will be daily for a while, then drop back to weekly, as lives and schedules fluctuate... .I'd certainly tell a friend like that about my romantic interests, instead of hiding them from my friend. (Then again, such friends aren't expecting or wanting an exclusive romantic relationship with me, so they are happy for me about a good dating prospect, so I'm not scared to.)

He is pretty clear and consistent about what he wants/needs from you... .even if his words don't quite match. This is what he's offering. Time for radical acceptance. And tough choices. Don't choose him for the hope that he will become something he's not, and has failed at being for pretty much the whole time you've known him!

[patientandclear]

Sure, but that guidance misses that I have NOT been choosing him. And the NC/ST more often comes from me, not him. I am the one who has said no to this relationship on the terms he offers for nearly three years.

The dynamic we have that poses a challenge for me is that he periodically shows up and says he wants back in, and bargains for that, using terms that suggest he wants or is open to more than the friends arrangement that I've said no to. This time, he proposed that we try a real r/ship. So I don't think it's right to say I am trying for more or that he has been consistent. I've listened carefully the last 3-4 cycles and heard that he was bidding for access by saying what I wanted to hear, but not really owning that view of the r/ship himself. I've said no. This time, he said HE wanted to try. That makes this sadder and harder (and makes it hard for me to accept that I couldn't have handled this differently resulting in a different outcome).

[Conundrum]

Hi Patient,

Having aspirational goals in which both parties exchange reciprocal relational promises is a natural emotional inclination--however, when untreated--the disorder continually subsumes and subverts relational promises ad infinitum.

Radically accepting another, implies making peace with their relational limitations (or not, by severing the romantic attachment).

A PwBPD either progresses towards healing broken relational behavioral patterns or they do not.

The subtext underlying your dissatisfaction appears to be that your PwBPD is relationally unreliable. However, the disorder itself inhibits reliability--and neither (his) words nor promises will alleviate said action. For the disorder is constant, while relationships are variable.

You asked about "emotional bumpers and limits, markers of a level of intimacy I would only offer to an exclusive partner" Yes, that all makes sense, when partnering with a balanced person--(but for me) not so much when the person in question is disordered.

Concerning my PwBPD--the relational elements that she is capable of offering varies depending upon the state of her disorder.  

During the three years that she was on meth and acting destructively--she had very little to offer (which I desired)--except occasional sex. It was then (when she was acting so unlovable), that I came to understand how our attachment transcended emotionalism and the (broken) status of the relationship. I perceived, or intuited, that in some manner our powerful emotions were invisible crutches, a veneer--masking the relationship's essential essence.

Consequently, since achieving sobriety and entering therapy--she's become relationally capable of offering more--albeit in her own unconventional manner. As a couple, we definitely lean towards the eccentric--however, progressive, rehabilitative endeavors within the framework of the relationship are not an optional boundary (for me) but mandatory. Still, that healing road takes (her) committed effort. Six months of in-patient rehab, 18 month DBT program, regular weekly NA meetings, financial and vocational counseling, home visits by clinicians assisting with the developmental aspects of her baby.

The years we were decoupled were a gift. It allowed me to discern between my want and need (for her). Patient, have you discerned whether your PwBPD is a "want" or a "need?"

[patientandclear]

I would more say he is a sorrow :/

I don't need him. And, though I miss him very much, I only want him if he also wants me on terms that work for us both. Does that make sense, and address your question?

The sorrow is the apparent intractible mis-match between where he is and where I am. I don't need him to be reliable. That really isn't my thing. I really need not to feel used--for reasons specific to my own life. He has profound barriers to being and staying deeply close with another person. And he has evolved explanatory systems to make sense of his actions and choices that don't support that changing.

I'm open to many configurations that could possibly align our respective needs, but he only seems to want one thing, which is to pursue emotional closeness with me while simultaneously decreeing that it can never mean we are partners. If he would even leave that question open, it might work for me, but he seems to need to definitively rule that out before he can get close to me.

I've tried to keep our interaction more removed, honoring his limit while addressing my need not to have him in this partner-ish role without wanting to truly be my partner. When I do that, he turns on the pull in ways that are exhausting and heartbreaking for me to say no to. When I say no I also sort of feel like it is me killing the thing I want, if that makes sense--he appears to want it, I hope maybe he's changed his sense of what's possible, I ask, he reiterates "no" ... .I can't find a path that allows me not to feel exploited that is anything other than very shallow.

I can best sum up the dynamic by saying he wants me to love him but he does not want to love me. Participating in that feels sort of inherently unhealthy.

Yet, when I withdraw from the dynamic, he returns with plausible and moving accounts of wanting to address what is wrong.

Conundrum ... .How did the woman in your life decide to do DBT? The man I'm writing about is in his mid50s and has yet to more than slightly hint one time that he has any notion that there may be an attachment disorder let alone a personality disorder in play. No sign of him engaging in anything other than occasional talk therapy about why his relationships never work out.

I'm also curious about your point that "progressive, rehabilitative endeavors within the framework of the relationship are mandatory" for you. Can you explain what sort of endeavors? Are these explicitly to repair or prevent dysfunctional dynamics that used to occur? What level of overt engagement with and awareness of those dynamics do you feel is needed before this is likely to be possible?

[Conundrum]

Conundrum ... .How did the woman in your life decide to do DBT?

Concerning DBT--my PwBPD began tossing in the towel on life via acting out (after 6-7 years of sobriety from ages 26-33). I had a sense that she was facing the great existential/transitional crisis of her life. I had been cognizant of her traumatic childhood wounds, and saw systemic improvement during our years living together--however, I had not grasped that those changes were more a result of mirroring (me) than any internalizing or self-awareness regarding her own psyche.

Consequently, witnessing her rapid decline and self-destructive choices was shocking. I had never been closely involved with someone  who so thoroughly and severely was trashing their own life. Her actions made me inquire in a more clinical sense what might be going on. Considering the traits she was evidencing it wasn't a great stretch winding up in the cluster B camp. I read Rachel Reiland's "Get Me Out of Here," and handed her the book. She read the first 50 pages or so, and not much more had to be said. The parallels were there.

In our city of about a million people there are two evidence based therapeutic bodies affiliated with the Linehan Behavioral Tech dedicated to treating PwBPD. The one that I chose had a three-month waiting list. They allowed me to place her on the list but said that she would have to agree to an assessment when a spot opened. I gave them her contact information, as we recently had stopped living together. Unfortunately, during that time the drugs, and alcohol were ramping up to such a degree making it impossible for her to benefit from structured assistance. She was dancing with the devil. I believe she attended just a few counseling sessions but couldn't handle it. However, I saw that her counselor had made an impression on her beyond what she had previously experienced.

She spiraled for about three years and it was a close call. Meaning that the precipice she straddled involved aspects that could be fatal. Eventually, she wound up in jail, 5 months pregnant while still severely addicted to meth.

She was released from jail around 7 months pregnant straight into a residential substance abuse program for pregnant mothers. She resided there for 8 months. While in rehab, on her own initiative, she got in touch with the same BPD/DBT program, and inquired about signing up for their 18 month program. She was able to get back in counseling with the same therapist whom she had previously briefly worked with. Upon release from rehab she started the DBT program. There's a good deal of DBT homework/skills work. She does two hours of group and one hour of individual therapy per week. The skills are pretty effective for a person whose mind doesn't easily process dialectical thinking and defaults to black and white. She's been participating for 8-months. It has opened doors allowing her to process options/choices in a less emotional and more orderly fashion. Recovery, whether from substances or a disorder takes commitment, but perhaps more importantly humility. Accepting that something has gone wrong in one's psychological/emotional development and taking  progressive steps in an attempt to heal is a life-long journey. As all things change.                                                       

[Jessica84]

P&C - I have been thinking of you since the server went down last week and have been wondering how you were doing. So... .How are you doing?  

I can relate to your situation in so many ways -- cake and eat it too/one foot out the door mid-50s partner, no diagnosis, not seeking therapy, attached "friend" label if I got too close or wanted more than he could give. It's maddening and heartbreaking. It's confusing and mind-twisting.

Figuring out where I got stuck, maybe you can relate... .

My mother always told me I was too analytical, to the point of crippling my decision-making. She was right. She called it 'paralysis by analysis'. I never knew what to do, and as soon as I did, he'd change the game on me! Discovering BPD was both a blessing and a curse - a blessing because I finally had an understanding of the chaos I allowed in my life - but a curse for the exact same reason -- I learned how to use new tools (awkwardly at first) only to achieve mixed results, getting thrown crumbs, that feeling of settling or being used... .frustrating... .exhausting.

Still... .after learning this madness had a name, my biggest hurdle toward radical acceptance has been in letting go -- especially of my expectations of him or having a 'normal' r/s with him. Letting go of the past and the hurts, and letting go of the future or being tied to the outcome of this r/s. These thoughts trigger me to a fearful place, and to resentments and anxieties. Of course, I can't let go of my values so boundaries are still important so it's a tricky tightrope I walk. It's just that I see where so many of us handed the remote control to a disordered person and got short-circuited along the way! Leaving us more confused and hopelessly stuck in a whirlwind of... .what to do now? Our brains are ever over-firing, our intestines in knots. That's an awful way to live. So I tried... .letting go. And it's been life-changing. The more I've let go, the more I've gotten what I wanted/needed from him in the first place -- more consistency, stability, fewer arguments/explosions/disappearing acts, acknowledging me as his "girlfriend" (that's huge for a commitment-phobe!), trusting me and being more trustworthy himself. The tools are all great, but giving my overactive mind a rest? Priceless! The fact that our r/s has improved as a result is merely icing on the cake. Anyway, I hope this helps you in some way.   At the very least, to say you're not alone.

[patientandclear]

Jessica, thanks for thinking of me, and for your kind post! In answer to your question, I'm not having the easiest time of it right now.

I get what you're saying. I think the difference is, I took a very "let go" approach with the guy in my life for a while. It was good! He responded well. I was not very stressed about expectations etc. Then ... .He suddenly moved (and with no reference to me except to reassure me that he'd be back after a few months, except he changed his mind about that too). I worked on letting go about that, too. We had some sweet and wonderful time together on a couple of trips and visits and I was making a leap of faith ... .Till he started not answering my texts at night, making up reasons, stopped texting all together, my spidey senses said he was seeing someone else, and then I confirmed he was. I think it's one thing to let go of outcomes, let go of control ... .When there is no evidence in front of your face that things have crossed core boundary lines. For me, that behavior changes what I'm willing to offer up, or was then willing to offer up. And when I think about resuming a "letting go" approach now, which no doubt would please him and make him more comfortable, it feels to me like knowingly walking into the proverbial hole in the street that you already know is there this time around because you fell into it last week.

If your guy, with the commitment issues and label aversion and changing emotions, had had several serious other relationships during your time of "letting go," and had moved 1500 miles away, would your willingness to be completely ambiguous about roles etc when he came back around change? I feel like my first round with him is analogous to where you guys have stayed, and I'm envious, because that was viable from my standpoint. But to do it exactly that way again after he showed me what to expect and it was so painful ... .?

[Jessica84]

I'm so sorry. You have been thru so much... .and sounds like you've tried it all, to no avail.

To answer your question, no I could not accept that. I could not even accept remaining "friends" if he wanted to see other people, real or imagined. Mine happened to have bad luck there. He either lost interest as fast as he gained interest, or they did. Nothing ever went anywhere. I gloated and pitied him at the same time.   

Still... .it was hard feeling so disposable and replaceable, and at the same time, eternally stuck with someone who wouldn't let me go, but wouldn't have me either. Like he put me in a shopping cart taking me off the shelf for anyone else to have, but never quite making it to the checkout line. I know I had a say too, but it never felt that way.

He couldn't move because his business is here, so I have no experience dealing with a long distance relationship. That would be VERY hard for me.

NC was my only protection, but I wasn't very consistent. I tried! I even changed his name in my phone to ":)o Not Answer"! Then he upped the ante with his suicide ideation, and I couldn't resist being there for him. At least since then, things have calmed down. That was his last final "push". Not sure if it's his age, ED, or what... .The ideation is still there, but the pushing has tamed quite a bit.

[lar, laris]

Hi, P&C and others,

I too have had you on my mind, P&C, as you charter further waters in your relationship.  I know it’s true for me, and hope it’s true for you, that knowing people care offers some small buoy.
 
I am rather new here, and new to gobbling down what I can about BPD: as you and  a few others writing on your thread know, I am in a silent period with my loved one; he is taking his distance after having tried to up the ante (his impulse) and then abruptly decided on “friends.”  I hope that my participation is received with this in mind—I am not as experienced as many others with intentional efforts with a BPD “partner,” and could very well be wrong as I engage in conversations that might still be beyond my ken.   
 
That said, I wonder if, instead of “does not want to love me,” it could be more the case that your loved one wishes to love you (on BPD terms, with all the caveats that I’m learning) from within the close-distant safety net that you are rather certain he would default to again “this time,” without the boundaries that you seem certain are the best choice for you (LC?).  Of course, the only reason such a distinction matters, I think, is because it hearkens to what I think I understand Conundrum to be pointing out: our untreated loved ones are stuck in their maladies, and this limits their "choices" (although not their responsibility).   

Conundrum’s "non" choices/limits and Jessica’s seem to resonate with you: you’d accept either, or both, of the following: a dedication to not pursuing other women, a commitment to some sort of help, such as DBT therapy. 

Given what you have shared, including your consistently expressed conviction that your LO could not “stick to” a true friendship, it seems that you are considering how to approach low, or no, contact.  I admire the fact that you are so “active” and thoughtful  in your choices.  What you choose (for now or for the unforeseeable future), will doubtless continue to include measured consideration and empathy for your LO, and for yourself.

The sort of work that you (and Conundrum and Jessica, etc.) are engaged in, is an admirable example for others of us who are newer to this and trying to cope.  It seems like this work will, for you, contribute to the consistently healthy boundaries that you have modeled for your loved one, no matter how/whether his responses are known to you.

I am, as others who are posting on your thread seem to be, chart-toppingly analytical.  I am so grateful to see others, including yourself, using this personality feature to improve their awareness, with love for self and others, instead of to get stuck in the morasses that seem to develop, sometimes out of nowhere, with pwBPD. 

I hope you are as well as can be expected, today.

lar, laris

[patientandclear]

Thank you so much, lar, laris & Jessica.  I really appreciate your caring messages.

Reflecting on both of your comments, and on this whole situation ... .I guess I am coming to see a distinction between a flexible, ambiguous relationship style, which fits me well and which I'm more comfortable with than many (and which works well with some of your partners, and which I tried with mine for a substantial period) ... .and participating in an unhealthy relationship dynamic, in which the man I'm writing about keeps "love and romance" for women who don't know him well, and I, who am allowed to know him (who he actually enjoys having know him well) am kept off to the side in some other category.  This pattern surfaced in the course of my own therapy, and I'm finding it a pretty plausible, albeit quite sad, explanation for what's going on.

Up to this point, I've seen us as growing closer together and potentially closer to a trusting intimate partnership, as we learn more about one another and have more important reality-based (non-idealized) experiences together.  I'm now starting to see that while, for me, this represents the growth of an intimate relationship, for him, it may put me in a different more difficult category than women whom he sees as potential partners.  From comments he made during this most recent episode, my association with painful memories is a real challenge for him.  He says he needs to not be thought of negatively, to not be associated with these traumatic painful memories he's shared with me and shameful feelings he has about his relationship history.  I am only remotely connected with most of that history but I am aware of much of it and connected in his mind to many of the people involved.

This is helping me to understand that, while I may be quite important to him (as a friend said, I am sort of a historian or repository of his story, someone with whom to process important questions and memories), which explains his relentless return to me despite my efforts to set boundaries ... .he is not returning to me in the role of a romantic partner.

This is hard to accept but does fit the facts and helps to explain our dynamics.  Why what feels like growth to me, requires (from his perspective) confining me to a limited role.

Obviously, if this is right, it makes me awfully sad.  But it also means I'm off base in thinking that if I just had answered a particular email differently we'd be in a different place.  He would have to be willing to integrate what is true but difficult about his own story, with an idea of "love."  That wasn't what it sounded like he wanted to do when we were in contact this time.

[waverider]

Maybe "romance" and 'fantasy" are inextricably connected to him. As a result he cant assimilate reality with romance. Reality is associated with companionship instead.

You get to see either the "real" him, or the "fantasy" him. You cant have both... If he lets you see the real him, then he has no confidence in selling you his fantasy.

Fantasy is always purest when left untested


Just a theory.

[patientandclear]

That's exactly what I'm coming to think the problem is. And that's not uncommon with BPD of course. The particular twist with this particular man and me is that he so relentlessly keeps coming back, and when he's back, our relationship seems very important to him ... .And when I'm gone due to boundary enforcement, and he appeals to restore our thing, his urgency and statements about how this is the most important r/ship in his life, etc--they've all confused me about what this is to him. And how close it is or might be to becoming something else.

I guess whether it could become something else depends on what the nature of the barriers are. If the barrier is trust, which I've thought for a while (inability to let someone in deeply), that perhaps could change over time. But now I'm seeing he actually does trust me. And in a way that itself is the problem vis a vis "love." He doesn't associate "love" (or romance, because he would tell you he loves me) with being actually or deeply known, and in fact, they are perhaps incompatible for him. Unless he critically examines that, which from his comments this round, he prefers not to do.

He was pretty explicit that he wants his clean good uninfected story line surrounding him. And that that is also why he moved from our city. And that that is a main problem for him in committing to a r/ship with me. It's sort of staring me in the face now. What confuses is that he so urgently also wants me in the picture--and that our dynamic IS suffused with romance. And many of the things you do with your primary partner.

This seems both sadder and more intractible than I'd realized. And perhaps folks can see why it seems problematic to continue to participate as he would like, too. If this is his plan--to continue to form fantasy-based relationships and recruit me to sort of stabilize or supplement them because I really know and love him--that doesn't seem like a healthy plan :/. If I "accept" and sign on to any significant degree, that is me going along with a route through his life that has already been hugely destructive to other people (incl me) (he has said for a few years now "I have to quit hurting people," but he doesn't), and isn't a growth path for him. And my presence, which is already awkward and painful for me because of his other r/ships (with compensating companionship benefits which would seem worth it if we might be growing or developing something more integrated) is also helping him sustain this pattern. I'm like a mega-crutch.

The trauma recovery work I've done the last three years is called lifespan integration (I love it and recommend highly). What he's doing if this analysis is right (and it sure seems to fit all the parts) is the opposite of integration. He is intentionally cutting off large pieces of his life experience; shaming them; and in a sense, giving them to me to hold. Again, it really hurts to see this. But if this is what's going on, it rules out a lot of the responses and approaches that otherwise might be worth exploring.

I sure never wanted this role.

[Jessica84]

He may have difficulty keeping the mask off for too long. You see the real him. Others give him the opportunity to see himself as he would like to be. He wants the best of both worlds - his cake and eat it too - you to share his true self with, others to share the mask with. He likely isn't even aware of it, but the need to break free of his true self may be so strong he can't commit. But where does this leave you?

I believe there are some pwBPD who simply can't let go of us - their need is so great to have someone consistent in their lives to validate their "real" self... .it's what they fear most, but also what they crave most. So it is possible that over time and with proper validation, the fantasy of becoming someone else with someone else, or someone else saving them from themselves, becomes less and less a driving need for them.

But... .how long can you wait? It's not all about his needs and what drives him, but YOUR needs and goals for achieving them.

[patientandclear]

Thanks Jessica, that makes complete sense.

No waiting. I don't wait for him. He will do whatever he will do, and for the moment, he's chosen a path away from me despite me giving maximum flexibility and accommodation within some outer limits. That's his call to make. I have no plans to "wait," but that doesn't mean I expect to fill the gap left by the absence of this person who means a great deal to me, any time soon.

Those of you who have read lots of my posts know the main way I get stuck is to think there's something I was supposed to have done differently or still could do differently. This analysis, if correct, suggests that there's nothing for me to do or to have done. It is what it is. I do know him. He did tell me that stuff. I have seen what happens and the cost of his choices. He has shared the loss he feels as a result. Also, he has hurt me, and he knows that (one of his requirements for this go-round was that I be clear-eyed that he "cannot be trusted," and this particular episode probably hasn't compounded that problem much, but I was one of the many who believed his initial assurances of safety and patience and once in a lifetime etc and it did hurt a ton when that fell apart, and he knows that).

That is all beyond my power to shift. If he can't integrate that into who he wants in a life partner, I can't be his life partner. And I decided a long time back I didn't want to be all that we are to each other and watch him fall "in love" with others. Too ... .I don't know. Humiliating, gross, disrespectful, unhealthy, something.

[Grey Kitty]

    It isn't easy, is it.

I think you've figured out as much as you can/need to about him now--he's shown himself (by his actions) consistently incapable of the kind of partnership you would want with him, even when you've dropped many of the traditional demands of such a partnership because you didn't actually need them.

When he loses the intimate uncommitted romantic friendship with you, he has promised things to get it back... .but hasn't been able to follow through.

I don't think you could do or say anything different that would matter to him and be true to yourself.

If you could accept that he will "fall in love" or at least chase other women, only to blow those relationships up pretty quickly because he cannot handle real intimacy well... .possibly being open with you about it, more likely trying (ineffectively) to hide it from you... .while maintaining the intimate/romantic friendship... .that would likely work for him. However you are very clear that it doesn't work for you.

I totally understand both not waiting and not being ready to go looking. Do you have an idea what course with him you want to chart going forward?

[patientandclear]

His excitement and sincerity about each of these fated-to-blow-up loves precludes me from sticking around. I know but he does not accept the essential character of these, and I just don't want that role. He really wants each of them to be so transcendent that it would make my role irrelevant. That won't work, but it's still his genuine intention, and that feels gross.

I don't have a plan re him. I've tried EVERYTHING. He blows up limits and makes a fascinating and distracting and tempting game of it. He is not above intimating to me that maybe my status might change if I would just yield and give him what he wants. I don't hate him (most of the time) and I'm not emotionally afraid of him (any more) but by the time I've reduced the thing to where it squares with what he will in fact actually give me, we're talking Christmas cards and birthday greetings, and per his oft-stated "I don't want to be just pals with you," that has little value to him, and also, little to me. I know I matter to him in some weird way and I'm sure he knows he matters to me.

So I'm thinking we're not in touch. There's not a rule about it, but I doubt either of us sees the point in the kind of ultra casual contact that wouldn't be boundary-busting.

[waverider]

It could be substitute mothering.

Developing kids like the buzz of independence, but ultimately they need to return to mothership for that open hand of acceptance and getting their nurturing refill, ready for their next venture out into the exciting big world out there.

Part of lack of adult emotional development.

[Turkish]

This thread has reached its post limit and is now locked. The topic is continued here: (Pt 2)