What does he need to hear from me at this point?

[patientandclear]

Last thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295832.msg12779457#msg12779457

To update per Grey Kitty's suggestion to let you know whether he showed up and how gracefully:

He showed up.  We spent a lovely weekend together 10 days ago.

Ever since, it appears he's been plunged into bad feelings.  Centering around "it can't work."  This is his typical pattern: he gets negative and reaches a negative conclusion and asks to be "friends" instead of trying.

This time in the lead up to the visit, we said he'd tell me what he was feeling and I would try not to over-react, and we would go slow and try to make it through difficult feelings.

But he hit the difficult feelings (which, if guessing, I'd say are a combination of "this will fall apart and that will really hurt, better not to try," and "oh my god, if I keep going with this my single/independent life I've made for myself is over;" despite that I am objectively close to the least encroaching potential partner in the history of love and romance) and he's showing no real sign of hanging in there.  He's withdrawn a lot.  He's engaging in light communication now (texts and email even though we agreed during the visit not to do this through email).  Email was the means of communication during our long "friends" period.

(BTW he has pretty much accepted the truth of my position that when we are "friends" it is really me being his unacknowledged intimate partner but in a scenario where he behaves in ways not consistent with partnership, e.g., sudden moves, seeing others.)

Yesterday he sent an email with a gloom and doom meme about how "most things don't work out, and that's OK."  Which he often, perhaps understandably given what he does to relationships, espouses as his life philosophy.

And he is NOT sharing his feelings with me, despite the earlier commitment.

Last weekend he asked to talk though quickly dropped into a chat mode instead because it was more comfortable, and told me he is more comfortable being "friends."  But my long-established position is that I won't do that anymore.  He said briefly he'd be willing to keep trying the romantic relationship scenario "if that's what I need to do to keep you in my life."  Without really thinking I rejected that for a second time (I did the same last year), saying I wouldn't want him to be in bondage like that.

So now, this "things don't work out and that's OK" meme.

What does he need to hear from me?  I know he's having bad/overwhelming feelings.  That was always going to happen.  I thought we were trying, really trying, knowing that that was coming.  Just saying OK and dropping it -- I've done that numerous times before.  It results in 10 months of break, seemingly painful for both of us (he later always talks about how sad he is about it), and then an effort by him that he drops at the first hurdle.

Does he need to be reassured that it will be OK?  (I don't typically do that, pretty much just respect his autonomy by dropping the attempt).  :)oes he need me to show I'm not afraid of his bad feelings?

I'm interested not only in what I might do so this doesn't fall apart again now, but to frame this differently for any future interactions than I have in the past.  In the past, I have tended to decide that he is not showing up in a way that works for me, and I end it fairly quickly and defensively.  After a ton of trauma therapy dealing not only with this relationship, I'm able to hang in there with the ambiguity and de-personalize much better and could indeed hear his cruddy feelings about this without over-reacting.  But he is not trying that.

(I am fully aware that this guy is not well-equipped to be in a relationship!  I'm trying this under what I am well aware are sub-optimal conditions for a long term committed outcome.  I'm trying to give it the best chance I can, for my own reasons explored in excruciating detail on many other threads and which we don't need to discuss here.)

Thanks for any help/insights.  (BTW he is 4 hours away -- I can't just pop over to his place, though I could and would make -- and never have made -- a dramatic drive to his place to talk in person.)

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[Meili]

Hey PaC! 

That all does sound so completely stressful! I too start to feel defensive in situations like what you described. It causes me to shut down and not pay attention to what is actually being conveyed to me. I start to pay attention to only the words used rather than the totality of the meaning.

Does he need to be reassured that it will be OK?  (I don't typically do that, pretty much just respect his autonomy by dropping the attempt).  :)oes he need me to show I'm not afraid of his bad feelings?

This struck a cord with me. Could he be seeing what you're doing as not being emphatic to his feelings and thus invalidating and rejecting him?

Many people shy away from expressing any deep feelings when they are scared or don't feel heard. Do you feel that you are creating a safe environment for him to feel free to express himself?

[Conundrum]

Hi Patient,

Glad you experienced a lovely weekend.

It looks like you're seeking practical advice.

This is speculative, but if I was internally/eternally conflicted (as you state he is), reassurances that it's "ok" (unafraid of bad feelings) would not help. Your certainty/stability (concerning what you want and don't want--through little fault of your own) would inherently pressurize the environment--and a boatload of well meaning reassurances would fall on deaf ears making me feel even more anxiety.

What may help reduce anxiety are ambiguous statements that mirror the ambiguity inside the person (it's a bit counter-intuitive). Consequently, when he goes off on those "memes," responses such as "Let's see how things go--Let's take it one day at a time," may quickly deescalate anxiety while easily allowing a transition to less heavy/downer (more fun)--topics. Yes, those are trite responses--but pwBPD get caught inside those maddeningly heavy emo loops and (all too often) run with them ad nauseam. 

I see nothing beneficial (when there's been a lengthy relational interlude) coming from engaging in those memes with him (this early on), and the sooner you can distract from those minefields the better. Those types of discussions are best suited to a person/couple who are in very structured evidence based therapy--though even then in measured doses.

[patientandclear]

Too late! He announced he can't do a romantic relationship today and asked that I be his friend. There you go, Green Kitty (see post on other thread linked above).

[Conundrum]

Aww... .Patient, I'm sure that hurts and is frustrating--even when predictable.

Investing in an untreated/unstable person is a game of chance mixed with winning and losing hands.

When we've known our pwBPD for a good deal of time--the cumulative experience (over time) may be more indicative of the (couple's) bond, or lack of bond, than any temporal moments in time that define the status of the relationship. Though weathering the pain and/or transcending suffering is another story.

Inevitably, regardless of the non's gender it seems that the stable party must lead in these relationships. I can neither control my pwBPD's emotions nor her actions--although I can lead via my own actions, thoughts and feelings.

What will your reaction be to his most recent vagaries? Do you want to seize on his declarative statement as being definitive--or apportion it less import? There are a number of options concerning how you can react to that statement. Keep your chin up.


   

[Grey Kitty]

Awwww... .sorry to hear that! I really didn't WANT to be "right" in any way about something like this.

Too late! He announced he can't do a romantic relationship today and asked that I be his friend.

Maybe too late. Or maybe saved by the bell. Dunno. I found this topic when this was current, but upon reading your first post on this topic, I was starting to think to myself: "This is all about him, there's not really much of anything P&C can do about it."

Maya Angelou's famous quote applies here:

When people show you who the are, believe them.

This man cannot be in a (stable) romantic relationship.

  How are you feeling about him today?

[myself]

Perhaps what he really needs to hear is, "OK, let's just be friends," without the (albeit gentle, understanding, etc.) push and pull. Which is what he's (mostly) been saying for quite awhile now. If you can sincerely offer and share that with him, that is, given the feelings, patterns, and history involved.

To turn it around a bit, what do you think You may need to hear to be able to make your own next best moves/radically accept this?

[patientandclear]

Myself--that doesn't work for me.  I decided a long time ago (2.5 years) that I could not be his friend as he wants to do that, because he very effectively and somewhat craftily engineers things to gain access to an intimate place in my life that I don't put friends in, let alone a former lover whom it was not my choice to leave. I don't tell him yes to friends because it doesn't work for me based on trying twice and long history. Indeed, once we're just "friends," it's as if the brakes are off on his intimacy regulator. I can enforce those boundaries but to what end? To ensure we maintain a superficial friendship that cannot grow? It feels especially cruddy to shut him down because I love that interaction; it's not the usual situation where we permit what we enjoy and not what we don't.

I had been cruising along for 11 months, not happily, but effectively, without him. I did not push him to resume contact against his principles. I haven't changed the terms on which I'm willing to be connected to him. He seems uncertain whether he wants to do those terms or not, and every 10-11 months he comes around saying he'll do whatever it takes, and I say don't do me any favors, and he gets put off by some small or large thing I do, and is suddenly no longer interested in doing whatever I need, and now again wants to be "friends."

Conundrum, great point about how it may be less momentous than it feels. It was sad and painful for a minute because I really thought we were maybe doing something else. Much was better and different. Then suddenly he vanished into silence and when he returned it was all very much the same.  ... .What I decided to do was acknowledge that I respect his boundary, and reiterated mine: can't be "friends;" can do an ambiguous unnamed intimate connection but not if he is pursuing other women. That's been my position for a long time now so it won't be a surprise. If not, I can't be connected with him more than casually, as he knows but chronically "forgets."

GK, your conclusion appears inescapable :/ I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him. I was mad yesterday because of the effort and the waste, but today it just feels sad and futile.

[patientandclear]

Just to add one more point to my answer to "maybe what he needs to hear from you is that you'll be his friend."

It's not good for him (setting aside even that it's terrible for me) for him to be able to take what he wants from me with promises of effort and caring and then to renege on those at the first hurdle and still get what he was after in the first place. And it's not good for either of two people for one of them to put themselves in a position of being hurt because it's gratifying to the other.

I started saying to him a ways back that what we need and can give don't match and so far that has always proven true. He keeps not being able to give what he keeps suggesting maybe he will give. Sometime soon I may stop being curious about whether that will continue to be true next time.

[myself]

^ Agreed.

What he 'needs to hear' and what you can actually 'say' may not ever line up.

What made you think it might be different this time around?

[patientandclear]

Oh I see -- Myself, I had misunderstood what you said initially. I still don't think he "needs" to hear something that succumbs to his emotional manipulation. Some wise poster here said on one of my last threads months ago that he wants that ... .But he needs honest and loving responses that do not yield unhealthy arrangements that he feels that he wants.

Why did I feel it would be better/different? I was much less fear-based and reactive. I was able to deal better with his reactions, without experiencing them as a personal rejection. I was less hesitant about doing/saying things that might make him uncomfortable. I was a better listener.

I also was impressed that he sent me an article (many of you have probably read it) about how we all need to accept that we'll be settling for something different than our fantasy romantic partners (but more real and potentially better). I thought this reflected important insights and gave us a framework for expectations.

As it turns out, I don't think he's really accepted that the best possible r/ship isn't going to feel perfect, and that his own feelings will attack the closest of r/ships.

[Grey Kitty]

GK, your conclusion appears inescapable :/ I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him. I was mad yesterday because of the effort and the waste, but today it just feels sad and futile.

I'm thinking that this time is different... .for you.

Previous cycles, you were broken hearted when he ran away or got involved with another woman... .and you also had big regrets over how you handled things on your side.

Do you feel like you did things "right" this time? (Never mind what he did!)

I know I felt like I really learned things in the end of my marriage that I needed to know, and that I hope will help me in a future relationship. (Haven't had a romantic relationship since, so the acid test is yet to come!)

[lar, laris]

I'm very sorry to hear of your current disappointment, patientandclear.  It seems that you have been dealing with this for a long time, and although you've been learning and growing yourself along the way, it's been very hard.    I'm new and don't have any words of wisdom or good questions, but I wanted you to know I relate to your situation quite particularly, and my thoughts are with you.
lar, laris

[patientandclear]

GK, your conclusion appears inescapable :/ I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him. I was mad yesterday because of the effort and the waste, but today it just feels sad and futile.

I'm thinking that this time is different... .for you.

Previous cycles, you were broken hearted when he ran away or got involved with another woman... .and you also had big regrets over how you handled things on your side.

Do you feel like you did things "right" this time? (Never mind what he did!)

I know I felt like I really learned things in the end of my marriage that I needed to know, and that I hope will help me in a future relationship. (Haven't had a romantic relationship since, so the acid test is yet to come!)

No GK, not sure it is any different. I'm having big regrets and can't sleep because I screwed this up again and it may be five years before we would get back to a this point again. I can see that the first reply here was correct that I needed to validate when he gave me the smallest opening (in the chat session, when he said we should be friends instead because he was sure if we kept going down this road it would fall apart and then we'd lose everything and that is not OK). Instead of asking why he felt it was certain to fall apart and go from there with validation, I started reiterating that I can't be "friends." And he got more and more committed to his position that it doesn't work romantically. And now here we are, in NC for however long until I meet some other person to love (hasn't happened in a decade other than him despite my general openness) or he reaches out again to find out of I've changed my mind about friends.

I also can see that if i'd just sat through the subsequent days/weeks of uncertainty he might have steadied enough to proceed with our plan despite his stated misgivings about how it would be better to be friends. By making him commit to a path (I asked in response to the gloom and doom email I described in the opening post whether we were still "trying", I pretty much forced him to commit to a position and it was predictably a position of ending.

So no--I would not say I am in a better place on this. I am still not good enough at interacting with him to not cost us the rare chances. In my favor I'll say I'd have done better if he'd let us talk in real time, but the insistence on chat makes it much harder for me to ask questions rather than just react, for some reason.

[Grey Kitty]

    The loss is so tough to bear, even if you don't blame yourself for it. That you aren't able to sleep sounds pretty natural and normal. That you are torn up does too.

Actually, blaming yourself sounds like a pretty "normal" thing to do, even if it doesn't seem to be healthy or accurate from my side of the computer screen. Try to be gentle with yourself and take good care of you when those feelings come up. 

No GK, not sure it is any different. I'm having big regrets and can't sleep because I screwed this up again and it may be five years before we would get back to a this point again. I can see that the first reply here was correct that I needed to validate when he gave me the smallest opening (in the chat session, when he said we should be friends instead because he was sure if we kept going down this road it would fall apart and then we'd lose everything and that is not OK). Instead of asking why he felt it was certain to fall apart and go from there with validation, I started reiterating that I can't be "friends." And he got more and more committed to his position that it doesn't work romantically.

Last week you wrote this:

I could not have tried harder or more sincerely this time. He seemed to love what we were doing, spoke of growth and effort and change. Then--"I can't." Maybe that is just true; maybe there is no amount of effort or goodwill that is going to turn that around for him.

Yes, it is sad to lose this r/s again, and you will grieve, but it feels different (at least to me), knowing that I did my part right, and tried one more time and did my best.

Remember--you may have to do the emotional heavy lifting in this r/s because of his limitations... .but if he can't do ANY of the work, you can't do it all for him... .and I can't imagine you would be happy in that even if you could!

And now here we are, in NC for however long until I meet some other person to love (hasn't happened in a decade other than him despite my general openness) or he reaches out again to find out of I've changed my mind about friends.

The result is true, but have you gone out looking as an available woman? Or were you still hoping this r/s would/could/should work even when you tried during the breaks?

I'm betting it will take a good bit more grieving and processing for you to be ready for that. (And don't feel bad about going on a few dates when you aren't sure, or finding out after going out on a date that you are less ready than you thought... .that is part of the process for most of us!)

[patientandclear]

My view has shifted on whether I contributed to the collapse here. As noted above, I think had I waited out his often-long dysregulation period, he may have found himself more interested in hanging in there on our project of trying a real relationship. Calling the question prematurely was a bad call, I'm pretty sure. Makes it harder for me to accept the outcome somehow.

As to alone-ness -- I've been "available" for years. There's no one out there. I'm 50. For all y'all who are men or younger women, I gotta say, you may understate the severe change in the dating landscape once you are a straight woman over 50. Or even in upper 40s. It's just not an auspicious landscape. It is a real possibility that I will be alone, regardless of my own openness or availability. That too makes it harder to give up on this very challenging scenario. When I was 25 I would have been done with this by now because I'd be seeing someone else eventually.

[Grey Kitty]

How many often-long dysregulation periods of complete rejection/NC do you want to keep waiting through? They aren't stopping. In a functioning relationship, he has an obligation to manage his feelings better than going away for months even if you DO say the wrong thing.

I think that trying a "real relationship" with him is going to involve (at best) months of being rejected like that. That's who he is, and he will find a reason to do it.

Knowing that I'm always one "bad call" away from months of rejection isn't something I'd want to live with in a relationship.

I ended one relationship specifically because we couldn't negotiate anything emotionally intimate successfully. I *think* it was her issue, that she was incapable of asking for what she wanted in a way that was achievable, and instead asked for something that wasn't quite what she wanted and wasn't quite possible, and when refused or when it failed, she got so flooded with her emotions that she couldn't even remember what was said, other than the feelings of rejection/panic/whatever.

My conclusion was that I *thought* was communicating well, and it was on her... .but whether I was doing it right, or doing it wrong, it was becoming 100% clear that the two of us couldn't communicate successfully on this issue, and I needed to not be in a relationship where this kind of communications always failed.

And that's what I see you experiencing--your fault (unlikely), his fault (likely), 3% yours, 97% his (even more likely), it doesn't really matter. The point is that it always blows up. I don't see that changing.

Do you think he's going to change?

Do you think that anything you could possibly do would lead him to behaving differently? (Besides not taking him back)

As to alone-ness -- I've been "available" for years. There's no one out there. I'm 50.

If you mean you don't like the guys you do you see out there, I could believe that. But there are guys out there interested in/looking for women who are 50 (or older) [Aside: I'm not going to proposition you, but I am one myself, a year younger, and consider women 5~10 years older or younger than myself to be likely or reasonable matches] I also know other women at and above your age who are finding guys to date. Can think of one new and wonderful relationship too, but more in the dating realm right now. (There certainly are many in the dating pool to throw back in, and they are finding that!)

I'd also go out on a limb and say I really doubt you are projecting "available". My stbexW [52, and not far from average in the physical attractiveness scale for her age] was a master at being flirty/available, and got a LOT of interest. (I'm not close enough to her today to know if she's still doing it or not... .nor am I concerned, 'tho she isn't in a new relationship that I'm aware of. Not my problem now.)

[patientandclear]

Hi GK-- thanks as ever for the dialogue.

I didn't really mean I can't find men to date.  I mean it's so unlikely there will be someone whom I find interesting and complementary in the way I do the man I write about here.  I'm in a weird place in life for romantic connection -- I'm a powerful woman in my sphere and most people are afraid of/intimated by me, and that kind of power is just not very sexy to all that many men.  Of those who can deal, many are pretty messed up   Does that make sense?  There are conquest issues or other power dynamics that are just very distorting.

I'm just being realistic.  If I were 25 I would have dropped this likely BPD r/ship long ago.  Now, it is, disturbingly, possibly the most interesting and best option I have for meaningful companionship.  We talk a lot about radical acceptance on here but I rarely see that applied with clear eyes to this question.  Women at this age are looking at a life alone unless something unusual happens.  And sure, it could.  And yes I am open.  I'm not waiting for this guy.  But it's hard to conclude that the idea of him and me figuring something out might not be the best chance I have of not existing completely outside the realm of romantic companionship for the rest of my life.  That is an awkward fact but, I think, still a fact.

I'm not interested in dating to date.  I'm not interested in companionship just to have a partner.  I don't need it and have spent much of my adult life alone (though in my time have also had many partners).

I hear you that the r/ship he and I occasionally attempt is pretty messed up and non-optimal.  This is true!  However, I would like to optimize it, if that makes sense.  I would like to not compromise whatever small chance we have of things turning out in a way that brings relative happiness to both of us.

[Grey Kitty]

I hear you that the r/ship he and I occasionally attempt is pretty messed up and non-optimal.  This is true!  However, I would like to optimize it, if that makes sense.  I would like to not compromise whatever small chance we have of things turning out in a way that brings relative happiness to both of us.

I see a large chance that you can continue as you've been going, with alternating friendship/intimacy and periods of NC from him. You get all the good things he brings to the table when he's there, and then he takes them all away.

And I don't see you sounding at all happy or peaceful about accepting him this way--instead you seem to be clinging to the hope that you can somehow say just the right thing, and he won't run away next time.

He's too insecure/threatened/whatever to make and keep that kind of commitment. You said that after a delightful visit, this round blew up when he clammed up/shut down instead of communicating his feelings with you despite making a commitment to do exactly that!


On the other part--I agree that who you are and what you want limits your pool of good dating prospects. That said, there are men who would be interested out there. I personally am not at all intimidated by strong women. All that I've been involved with were, some were professionally successful, and I've got female friends who are easily as professionally powerful as you are.

My take: The one critical thing that keeps you from finding any other romantic relationships (after a search!) is that you still hope this will become one, and some part of your heart is holding on for it.

[Jessica84]

I'm so sorry patientandclear. I can really relate to this. My "I just can't" bf has done this to me before, many times! Frustrating and painful. He has similar attitudes as yours when things aren't good --- that everyone grows apart and ALL relationships fall apart, eventually. Well, considering "we" could "grow apart" several times in one day, I had a hard time buying his worldview! It's true that some couples do grow apart, but not in the way he thinks. He didn't seem to grasp the concept that it's more of a slow, gradual process.

So whenever I got this push from him, I constantly waited for him to act on this grim belief. If we agreed to 'work' on us it always failed. Too hard for him. Overwhelmed him into scary unfamiliar territory. Talk about his feelings? You'd think I asked him to do open heart surgery on himself! Easier to pull the plug and fall back on his beliefs so it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. I kept getting hurt and disappointed.

So I read about radical acceptance. I stopped fighting it and let him believe whatever he wants -- I'm a jerk, the sky is purple, elephants have wings, and ALL relationships are doomed. OK. I don't have to share his beliefs. I don't have to change them, or sell him mine.

Every r/s is unique. But if I can give you one molecule of hope, it's that over time some of my bf's beliefs have  changed - slowly (very slowly) evolving into more like mine - that relationships CAN work, that they CAN last, and CAN be very rewarding. Even in hard times. But this came without a single talk about how we're going to work on 'us'.

Have you tried not trying? (Sorry can't think of a better way to word that  )
I mean like, letting go of expectations? Sometimes giving up our struggle to change things is the best thing we can do. And maybe if we change/let go, they will feel safe enough to follow our lead.

I'll agree with GK on the other -- Your age and power will not hold you back. Those are bonuses! It's your investment in this man that might. Madonna is as hot today in her 50s as she was 30 years ago.

[patientandclear]

Thanks Jessica! I did try not trying a few years back. But HE  proactively seems to need to put a label on things. He needs to tell me that it is not romantic, but it is just friends. And even that wouldn't bother me, except that to him, what comes along with that is denying the significance of our connection, and dating others.  That was super painful to me, and has been my own boundary for the last 2 1/2 years. He has finally really registered what I mean about that, that if we are going along with our intimate partner-like connection, even without a label, what that means for me is that he's not dating anyone else. He seems to still have aspirations to find something better out there, and does not want  that limitation.

It's somewhat surprising to me that he won't just try, without a label, but also, without dating others, for a little while at least, to see what it could be for us. I suspect it would work out pretty well, even if we never really see eye to eye about what it should be called.  The approach that you recommend is the one I thought we would experiment with this time. This is why I think I sort of blew it by asking him what we were doing in the middle of last week. It feels like I forced him to make a declaration, when I should've just let it rest. When were just  being ourselves, without the pressure of definition, it's super fun.

[Jessica84]

Yup. Grass is greener syndrome. Commitment phobia. Whatever you want to call it. 

When mine saw greener grass and suddenly we're "just friends" I cut off contact. I had to. Not because of a boundary, more like self-preservation? I couldn't hear about it. Friends talk about their lives. Lives include relationships. For me to be "just friends" would take years, not the day after a breakup!

Mine labels too. Black and white thinking. I try not to fret the label, except for the "friend" label when it doesn't actually mean that - when it means keeping me around in case it doesn't work out with someone else.

Let me ask you this... .with everything you know about him and BPD, would you say that just anyone  could validate him as well as you? I think not.

This is where I take some comfort. Mine still has a degree of commitment-phobia. But somewhere, deep down, he knows he'll never get the validation he gets from me from anyone else. He can find someone younger, prettier face, laughs at all his jokes. But I say blah blah blah... .that's not what he really wants... .and he knows it!

Don't beat yourself up for pressuring him. You wanted to know where things stood, where they were headed. Understandable. I've done it too... .but have learned the hard way it doesn't work with him. Just pushes him to some strange place in his head. I much prefer the super-fun-who-cares-where-we're-headed label 

[patientandclear]

You're very kind, Jessica, thank you!

That's why I'm confounded here. I too prefer the super fun who cares where we're headed motif. It's just that in the case of this particular man, I've played that out and despite our seemingly fantastic relationship, he still started seeing others, not being very overt with me about that, suddenly moved cities and acted like I was crazily possessive because I asked him why he did that.  So in this case the "friends" label facilitates certain choices by him. It's hard for me to imagine it won't go that way again if I'm not clear where the boundary is being crossed.

When he calls it "friends" in light of that backdrop, playing it out seems like self-abandonment: signing up for the exact same thing that happened before and this time knowing.

If he could just stop at "ambiguous" we'd be fine.

[waverider]

If he could just stop ... .xxx... .we'd be fine.

This is the BPD trap for magical thinkers... We have all said it

[Jessica84]

That's the kind of "friend" I could never be. When it means "standby".

I have only been "friend" when it meant "I'm so screwed up no one should be around me and I want to die".

I had to do a lot of listening (and some mind-reading) to define it for myself. I feel for you. Wish I had something more comforting to say.

 

[patientandclear]

Yes, standby is a good word for it. Thanks for confirming my sense of yuckiness ... .There really is a huge difference between "your central role in my life is uncontested but I need to back off the definition," versus "I use you for emotional fulfillment and stability while I profess eternal love for other women."

It really does help to hear that my limits make sense to others, especially when he constantly acts puzzled and sort of sad about them and some others can't see why I wouldn't just accept the friends resolution. Thank you!

[patientandclear]

If he could just stop ... .xxx... .we'd be fine.

This is the BPD trap for magical thinkers... We have all said it

Touche.  To be clear, hoping that this will occur is not a plan I'm entertaining!

[patientandclear]

Don't beat yourself up for pressuring him. You wanted to know where things stood, where they were headed. Understandable. I've done it too... .but have learned the hard way it doesn't work with him. Just pushes him to some strange place in his head. I much prefer the super-fun-who-cares-where-we're-headed label 

This is actually the sticking point for me.  I have compassion for myself here -- the amount of apparent rejection that has gone on in this r/ship far surpasses anything I would have thought anyone should stick around for, especially someone coming out of the past history of abuse that I have.  It's not that I think I was a bad person or that it's not understandable that I pushed for clarification.

However -- this particular relationship could not afford that mistake.  As the smoke clears and my feelings get a little less raw, I can see that he was trying to hang in there.  Unlike the past, he was not overtly rejecting us as a romantic partnership.  He had said he wanted to ... .but he had not yet quite pulled the trigger.  I think if I'd just sort of ignored the question we might have gotten through that most difficult passage where his relationships usually collapse.

And I KNEW that!  I'd made notes to myself not to push him or argue with his feelings, and to wait.

But I didn't.  And now that he's doubled down on "a romantic relationship doesn't work for me," it could be years before he is open to revisiting.  It would be embarrassing for him to admit that might have been a mistake, even if (as I suspect) he begins having doubts about how all this went down.

It's just really sad to consider that I might have missed the very small window for getting us to a different platform than we've been all for so long.  It is so fun when we are just doing our thing.  Because of my boundary enforcement and his very explicit statement now that friends is all that is on the table (again) and his explicit interest in preserving his ability to see others, I can't even have the kind of low level contact that could let things subtly shift.  He views that low level contact as an acceptance by me of his cruddy terms.

Really wish I had not hit send.

[Conundrum]

Patient, if wishes were fishes we'd all be kicking back in Margaritaville instead of diving for invertebrates. Though, more than likely the present interlude is not a denouement, but a small cluster of tiles within the broader mosaic of a dynamic play. However, becoming weary of protracted interludes is the crux. After all--we have been with/are with--people resembling Schnabel plate paintings. From a distance beautiful and fascinating, though when viewed too close those fragmented shards may rip to shreds. 

You've been here before. Clearly perceive. This is not unfamiliar terrain. There may be a chance at breaking the cycles which are not working. Synthesis in disordered relationships is always born from thesis/antithesis. I get the impression that somehow you've become reluctantly wedded to certain relational conditions/methodology that he has set. No real time phone conversations, texting etc. Aren't those his conditions and not yours? Do they really work in a somewhat LDR?  To me that seems obstructionist and would prevent easy, simple and natural relational communication.

PwBPD (untreated) are neither wedded to their feelings, actions or thoughts--in consistently linear manners. They are haphazard. Assigning apocalyptic import to this recent development is a construct. Your construct--because it has become familiar terrain between the both of you. Yet, he does not possess the wherewithal to break this dynamic--however, you do. Shake things up--by not falling into his disordered frame. If you're feeling unhappy over the present course of events--then attempt to change them. Enough with the relationship talk, the tortured musings that leave you feeling empty. Be proactive--via action and less words. For example, if the present falling out suxs for you, then change it. Be selfish. Contact him and inform him that "we're going away for a weekend to have a blast and you're coming--right." If he says no, say "damn I don't want to make plans with someone else--gotta go." Or, "I made reservations at a restaurant (somewhere halfway between your locals) for Saturday night at 7:00pm--be there or be square, cuz I'm going to rock your world etc. Something along those lines. The point is, be spontaneous by setting up some event/action that you want to do with him and take selfish pleasure out of it--and order him to attend! (kinda joking but something like that). And leave the heavy talk alone while living to fight another day. Another decent technique is acting in ways in which he would never expect from you--be unpredictable, less readable, while still feeling that you're being authentic to your essential essence.

Finally, I have to say, I really feel for the women who find themselves here. While pwBPD can be high maintenance regardless of gender, in some ways I think it's even harder when the BPD partner is a man. When mixing testosterone into the picture--their intransigence towards being led or nudged in a healing direction seems super relationally difficult. If only these BPD guys could appreciate the pearls they're rejecting... .     

                           

[Jessica84]

Wow, great insights Conundrum!

Yes, being with a BPD man is almost unnatural. Men expect women to be emotional - men dating a woman with BPD just amplifies that... on steroids! But women expect men to be more rational. After all, WE get to be the emotional creatures, MEN get to be the calm logical ones. That's the natural order of things! I resorted to dealing with him as if he were the woman, I am the man. I have to admit, I much prefer it. Causes me to pause and think and not act on every feeling now! Some of the outbursts from him I can seen in my past self.

Patient - has he stated he intends to pursue other women, now that you're just friends? Has he mentioned anyone in particular? Mine has expressed this to me after a break up/just friends talk - when there was already someone who peaked his interest, not just a general desire to start dating other people. But other talks times because he felt engulfed by the r/s and knew he couldn't give me any more than he already was. Still other times, it was because of our endless bickering... .another time he was suicidally depressed and didn't want to see anyone. They all have different patterns. Do you know which it is for him?