A trip away from my GF and a few other things

[jrharvey]

Ok so overall it was a decent weekend. Nothing as crazy as the past. I spent the weekend with my family at the beach because it was my mom’s birthday. I knew something would go down the day before I left so I wasn’t surprised at all when she had an episode the night before I left. I had to leave my house at 6am so I went to bed at midnight. She was totally ok with that and even said that I should sleep early. Around 1:30am she woke me up showing me an old Instagram picture and asking about a girl that commented on a picture. The picture and comment happened before me and my GF even met. The girl happened to be a good friend of mine for about 6 years in college and we dated about 2 weeks but decided we weren’t great together and stayed friends. We haven’t talked in years and the comment was kinda random but just saying “nice picture” while I said “thank you” and we haven’t talked since. I stayed pretty calm while she went on a rant all night. She just kept going for hours about how its not ok to be friends with ex’s. I told her a few times that we aren’t friends anymore, haven’t talked and even asked why she was still friends with her ex and they still talk today. I didn’t JADE and just let her go from there. She had a short rage episode where she called me dirty and disgusting and how my penis makes her want to throw up because its been in so many girls or whatever. She said several times she couldn’t accept a guy like me. Just the whole thing lasted all night and she didn’t let me sleep. About 5am I just said screw it and took a shower and decided to leave. Right before I was about to walk out the door she flipped, turned all the anger off and wanted to be sweet and loving. It was extremely annoying but I kissed her, said I loved her and went on my way. She apologized and everything while I was driving. I was pretty annoyed I had to drive 4 hours with absolutely no sleep but im getting pretty good at not letting things bother me.

The rest of that day went ok. It did kinda crash when I told her I would call her that night. I should have been more clear about what time. I assumed she would be ok to wait till after my family went to bed and she assumed it would be sooner. About 9pm she called pretty sad about not having me call. She wasn’t mad, just disappointed and she understood when I told her that I was waiting for my family to go to sleep. However after that she asked if I was really with my family. She asked if I was somewhere else. I said yes I am with my family and she said… well how can I know? I kinda lost it and asked if she was trying to start something. I said something stupid like… You’re the one going to the bar right now while I am with my family and your accusing me of doing something wrong? That started this whole back and forth. I wouldn’t say argument but it was a discussion. She apologized later and said that she didn’t mean I was doing something wrong. She said she was just wondering if I was with a neighbor or something like that. It didn’t make sense. I think she was trying to change what she was really feeling but she apologized and we made up so that’s all that matters.

The next day I was at the beach with my mom and aunt. It was going pretty good and she texted me a few times. Later though she asked if I was swimming with some girls or laying on the beach with some girls. Ughh how disappointing. I asked her “are you really not able to control yourself or do you want to control yourself”? She got pretty upset about that of course. She said that it was just a questions and I shouldn’t be upset about a question. She tried to flip it and say it was a joke but I don’t think it was. She said I should be understanding about her insecurity and there is nothing wrong with what she is asking.

As I was driving home from the beach I lost service for about an hour and a half. I couldn’t send or receive any text. Of course this wasn’t good. When I got back in service she felt really insecure about that and when I told her that I have just been driving she made a point that It had taken me an hour and 45 minutes when it should have only taken an hour and a half. I told her I had to stop by the bathroom and the first place I stopped didn’t have a bathroom so it added 15 minutes to my trip. She went on to ask… Are you sure you didn’t stop to meet someone? Are you sure you just stopped to use the bathroom? How can I know?

Again this is so disappointing.  Im just thinking… Who could I possibly meet in this farm town? Where can I go? She could tell I was annoyed by the questions and she again explained that I had no reason to be upset about that and I should be understanding and she is only asking simple and harmless questions so no reason to even feel sad about that. The fact that I was annoyed by her questions really upset her. She went on to explain that this is how relationships should be. Well I don’t know about you but this is not at all like any relationships I know about. She said its healthy for couples to ask questions about each other and show concern. I think everyone can agree that showing concern and love is good but that level of insecurity is not healthy. We didn’t fight or anything but it was a long discussion. I spent the next hour listening to her go on and on about how I should be understanding for her and how I am not helping her with her insecurity enough. She wants me to be more sharing and show more pictures and give her more reason to trust me. I already feel like I am doing TOO MUCH.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[jrharvey]

Then she got extremely insecure when I told her yesterday that I needed to go out of town with my boss for a meeting. I know that Im already doing too much here but I agreed to take pics for her so she knew I was actually with my boss but she spent about 4 hours that night in this sad and depressed state just talking about all these things in the past and how I never do anything to help her trust me and how I don’t care about her insecurity or try to help. She just wouldn’t stop and I didn’t talk much at all. She just went on and on but very calmly just letting out all these negative feelings. She was saying things like… You could say your going with your boss and go meet some girls or you could ride with your boss and have lunch with some girl there while your boss was doing something else. Why do you have to go? You could tell your boss no? I don’t understand why you need to be there. Your boss can just go…. She just went on and on about things like that. Then she went into a sad and depressed self-doubt talk about not being good enough and how I am going to get tired of her and abandon her for a better girl. I tried a few times to make her feel better and tell her I would never do that and show her affection but got pushed away of course. I expected that but figured its better than not trying. I just let her continue her emotional self-mutilation for another hour.

Luckily there was no fighting but it’s still annoying as all hell. I’m in this state of acceptance. I accept my situation but now I can’t stop thinking about what do I really want? Can I actually deal with this my whole life? We aren’t married. Can I marry a girl like this? Me putting up boundaries helped me a lot and made things soo much better but she went on a rant last night about how my boundaries are hurting her and she feels like I don’t care about her because I had to put up boundaries. I made one small statement about the fact that I put up boundaries because she got physically and emotionally abusive. She ignored that and just kept saying those boundaries made her feel misunderstood and more insecure about me. She said im just not doing enough anymore like I use to. I swear though that I will never go back to the way things were before. 

Again I am wondering… Is it worth it? I love her to death but is love enough? IDK.

[VitaminC]

Hi JR,

no, love is not enough in this situation. Your girlfriend's jealousy comes out of her insecurity, as you know, and dealing with it is something you should do straight away.

Read this: TOOLS: Jealousy how to deal with a jealous partner
Jealousy creates a very hostile and uncomfortable environment, for both people. Each one suffers, though in different ways. Trying to stop it before it gets out of control is very important, since once it becomes an ingrained part of the relationship, it is very difficult and slow to change. Research shows much of the jealousy amongst couples stems from a lack of security in the relationship.       
 
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

[VitaminC]

And please pay particular attention to #4 and #5.

Ok?

[VitaminC]

And, just in case you've already read that (it seems you're trying hard to be listen, validate, and set boundaries already) - please have a look at this. It may apply:

BPD Behaviors: Extinction Burst and Intermittent Reinforcement?
What does extinction burst mean and why should I care about this stuff?  Because when you try to implement boundaries you will most likely see an increase in bad behavior because the BPD sufferer isn't getting the response they expect. They become confused and frustrated. You've changed the rules by not giving your typical response. They will increase their bad behavior to try to get the response they are used to.   If we are prepared going in ahead of time... .see how:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0
 

[GaGrl]

To validate you... .

1. You are correct. This is not how "normal" relationships operate.

2. You are correct. Questions of concern are admirable within a relationship. Thinly disguised questions of blame meant to elicit admissions of inappropriate behavior are manifestations of her insecurity and jealousy.

3. You can validate ad infinitum nauseum - that will not stop her behaviors. She needs focused, intense therapy, preferably long-term DBT.

4. Are you up to this life? What will it take of you to create a future with her that you can live in and live with?

[jrharvey]

Thank you Vitamin C. I have worked on my validation quite a bit and tried to stop invalidating. Ive also tried boundaries and also trying to negotiate appropriate ways of dealing with insecurity. I have discussed with her what I can and cannot do for her. Of course any time I say no I cannot do that she reacts negatively and thinks Im not willing to do anything to make the relationship better. I stay strong though and don't let it get to me. I hold my boundary and she accepts it. It just doesn't stop her from constantly complaining about it.

#5 I am working on. I have tried discussing this with her. She is one of those that thinks I should know what to do all the time and its crazy that she actually tell me what she wants or reaches out to me when she is feeling lonely. She just thinks if she is lonely I should be psychic and know even if I am busy at work all day.

Believe it or not things are 10 times better than they use to be. This is NOTHING compared to how things were. Her jealousy and acting out has greatly diminished through a lot of hard work. One thing she does tell me a lot is I am expecting too much from her too quickly. Maybe that's true. I guess I want things fixed ASAP and it is a lot of change for one person so quickly.

[VitaminC]

That's really great to hear, JR!

I'm glad things are improving for you and that they are doing so because of specific actions you have taken and continue to take on a constant basis.

Take a moment to pat yourself on the back for that! Really acknowledge that you are putting a lot of effort in and that it is paying dividends - and you know what, what you learn about validation skills and setting and maintaining boundaries will serve you in every area of your life.

So it's win-win

Do continue to pay attention not just to your partner and the relationship, but yourself too. Make sure you keep up family relationships and friendships. Nurture your own mental health. It is good for you, and good for your relationship.

How do you feel about things now?

[jrharvey]

4. Are you up to this life? What will it take of you to create a future with her that you can live in and live with?

If you asked me two months ago I would have said to stop the raging and abusive behavior. Thanks to this awesome site that behavior is completely gone. It was happening almost 3 times a week before but now it hasn't happened in over a month. I hope it stays that way.

I look at our relationship and to me things are pretty perfect with the exception of the jealousy and her sensitivity to certain things. Sometimes her insecurity makes her think that I am ignoring her or I am trying to hurt her when I actually have no idea what she is talking about.

[jrharvey]

How do you feel about things now?

I feel thankful about how much things have changed. At the same time I feel like at the end of the day she still has a personality disorder which causes pain in my life. Im going to keep trying and keep learning but I do hope that we can get to a place where we are both pretty happy. The one thing that worries me is that there will always be something to be negative about.

[VitaminC]

I look at our relationship and to me things are pretty perfect with the exception of the jealousy and her sensitivity to certain things. Sometimes her insecurity makes her think that I am ignoring her or I am trying to hurt her when I actually have no idea what she is talking about.

That's really good progress then!  

Keep working on the jealousy. Is your GF in any kind of therapy herself?

[GaGrl]

4. Are you up to this life? What will it take of you ?

If you asked me two months ago I would have said to stop the raging and abusive behavior. Thanks to this awesome site that behavior is completely gone. It was happening almost 3 times a week before but now it hasn't happened in over a month. I hope it stays that way.

I look at our relationship and to me things are pretty perfect with the exception of the jealousy and her sensitivity to certain things. Sometimes her insecurity makes her think that I am ignoring her or I am trying to hurt her when I actually have no idea what she is talking about.

That is significant improvement in, frankly, a pretty short period of time.

What progress is being made in helping her accept therapy?

[jrharvey]

Oh therapy. Well just last week she said she wanted therapy but just last night she said it was a waste of time and money. She hasn't gone yet. Me and her went to a therapist together a while back but it didn't help. She assumed this would be the same.

[VitaminC]

Hm, yes, that's tough.

However, it seems you've had some communication about what some of the main relationship issues are. Would that be right?  It seems from what you've said so far, that there is an awareness there that certain issues exist and are a problem. Your GF also appears to be aware that some modification of her behaviours is being required, at least to make the relationship run more smoothly. You are operating sensibly and calmly and have improved your relationship by using the tools you've read about here.

These things seem, to me, to create a potentially workable in environment. 

Hope you don't mind if I hit you with more reading material from the site. I just think it could be useful to you now to glance over it.  Try this and see?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

Have you actually discussed BPD with your girlfriend? I am not at all saying you should!
I am just wondering what she sees as her own issues and what she might expect of therapy.

[jrharvey]

We have discussed BPD and she is fully aware and accepting that she definitely has it. The problem is sometimes she is completely unaware of her own behavior and how BPD affect her feelings and actions. She can always see it maybe 12 or 24 hours after an episode but usually cannot be mindful about what's going on in the moment

[VitaminC]

She can always see it maybe 12 or 24 hours after an episode but usually cannot be mindful about what's going on in the moment

I read through some of your past posts, JR, and see how much work you've done already. I see that you've even researched different types of therapy that are available in your area.

Your GF's awareness and acceptance of her mental illness is big plus. It puts a structure of some sort around her behaviours, that can be used effectively to improve her coping mechanisms.  Of course, her getting into therapy and committing to it is probably something that would have to happen for that knowledge to be truly useful.

In the meantime, I want to say that her realising within 24-48 hours that she has had "an episode" is pretty good going! Do you think so? Obviously being mindful in the moment would be a wonderful goal and something that we ALL aim for in our lives!

Do you think that what you are currently doing is paying off? It certainly seems that way to me. If you keep clearly and cleanly enforcing your boundaries, and staying aware of the effect on you - you are working really positively towards something good and real.

How do you feel about it?

[Grey Kitty]

Next time you get a jealous accusation, try to validate instead of first answering who the girl on instagram is. (Validate that she sounds upset and jealous, for example.)

Are all-night interrogations normal for her? I'd put that in the category of abusive behavior. Consider a new boundary: "I will not discuss any relationship issues if you wake me at night with them." Nothing good came of your sleep deprivation this time, and I doubt it will next time either!

If you do that, it is only fair to offer to discuss it in the morning. Perhaps she will have calmed herself down by then. Perhaps not. Either way, if you had a night of good sleep, you will be in a better state to validate!

[jrharvey]

Next time you get a jealous accusation, try to validate instead of first answering who the girl on instagram is. (Validate that she sounds upset and jealous, for example.)

Are all-night interrogations normal for her? I'd put that in the category of abusive behavior. Consider a new boundary: "I will not discuss any relationship issues if you wake me at night with them." Nothing good came of your sleep deprivation this time, and I doubt it will next time either!

If you do that, it is only fair to offer to discuss it in the morning. Perhaps she will have calmed herself down by then. Perhaps not. Either way, if you had a night of good sleep, you will be in a better state to validate!

Honestly that's not normal. I think it was a reaction to me leaving at 6am for 2 days. I think she just felt abandoned. She rarely keeps me up late at night about something. Actually its usually me keeping us up in the past. She would get upset about something and then say she wanted to sleep. I would want to work things out and keep talking until it is resolved. Unfortunately that never worked. It always caused a larger fight and nothing got resolved. Best to wait till morning.

Validating like that never works. When she is in the mood to ask questions anything OTHER than answers really piss her off. If I say... .I see your really upset she would probably just say... .Answer the F'ing question.

[once removed]

Validating like that never works. When she is in the mood to ask questions anything OTHER than answers really piss her off. If I say... .I see your really upset she would probably just say... .Answer the F'ing question.

so she wants instant gratification. have you tried it over an extended period, though, keeping extinction bursts in mind? does answering the questions help?

[jrharvey]

so she wants instant gratification. have you tried it over an extended period, though, keeping extinction bursts in mind? does answering the questions help?

Answering questions only leads to more questions. More and more questions until she gets mad. Extinction burst do help.

[once removed]

Answering questions only leads to more questions. More and more questions until she gets mad.

yeah, and theres probably not an answer that would ever suffice. piggybacking on grey kittys point, it may not be normal for her to have woken you up, but you may have sent the message that waking you up for an hours long interrogation is acceptable. these relationships, and people with BPD, require firm and consistent boundaries. unfortunately, new boundaries often make for extinction bursts (things get worse before they get better), but that doesnt mean its the wrong approach.

in my experience, my partner had some semblance of what my lines were. she wouldnt cross those lines. there were lines she would cross, and i would just move them backward, and the behavior would continue. i lacked both the patience and understanding with her jealousy, and i also enabled her by fighting with her for hours about it. many times, i heard the same "these are just questions, this is normal, you shouldnt get mad". if only id known about extinction bursts and had firmer boundaries .

it sounds like youve made significant progress in not letting it get to you, thats huge. that doesnt mean you should tolerate sleep deprivation, or enable hours long interrogations and intrusions in general.

[Grey Kitty]

Well, if you were more likely to keep an argument going into the night than she was, time for you to stop it. (which I believe you have done) And don't let her get in the habit of doing it, even for "special occasions" like this one.

I'm sure that you are correct that it was triggered by her fear of abandonment. That said, it isn't an acceptable (or effective!) way to resolve it. Now you know better--try to do better next time.

Validating like that never works. When she is in the mood to ask questions anything OTHER than answers really piss her off. If I say... .I see your really upset she would probably just say... .Answer the F'ing question.

And as you said later, answering the questions, which keep bringing more questions until it turns into a rage also doesn't work.

I'm going to recommend that you work out your boundary on how you will answer jealous questions/interrogations. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Answer a couple factual inquiries. For example, the stuff covered here is all at the factual level:

she woke me up showing me an old Instagram picture and asking about a girl that commented on a picture. The picture and comment happened before me and my GF even met. The girl happened to be a good friend of mine for about 6 years in college and we dated about 2 weeks but decided we weren’t great together and stayed friends. We haven’t talked in years

2. Keep it short and sweet, being ready to enforce your boundary and end any discussion. It makes things so much worse.

3. Refuse to participate in an interrogation, where she is (effectively) accusing you of lying, or accusing you of thinking/feeling something for other women. Example where it went over that line:

she asked if I was really with my family. She asked if I was somewhere else. I said yes I am with my family and she said… well how can I know?

At a calm time, you might want to explain that you want her to feel secure, and that you won't participate in these kind of interrogations or rages about it anymore.

in my experience, my partner had some semblance of what my lines were. she wouldnt cross those lines. there were lines she would cross, and i would just move them backward, and the behavior would continue.

Exactly. If YOU know where your lines are and won't go past them, your partner will figure that out. And the lines can move in the other direction too. What I (and others here) have found is that they first set and enforced boundaries about one thing (physical violence, shouting, cursing at them), and then realized that something else which wasn't AS BAD was still bothering them, and had to enforce new boundaries. I think that's where you are.

[jrharvey]

Exactly. If YOU know where your lines are and won't go past them, your partner will figure that out. And the lines can move in the other direction too. What I (and others here) have found is that they first set and enforced boundaries about one thing (physical violence, shouting, cursing at them), and then realized that something else which wasn't AS BAD was still bothering them, and had to enforce new boundaries. I think that's where you are.

This is exactly right.