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Author Topic: What does he need to hear from me at this point? (Pt 2)  (Read 533 times)
Jessica84
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« on: August 13, 2016, 06:33:41 PM »

Someone pointed out to me here once that the improving boards weren't always about saving the relationship - but more about giving it our all to understand the disorder and our loved ones, to implement the tools to try to improve things, and to heal ourselves, so that we could make clearer, more informed decisions. So that if it doesn't work out in the end, we can truly say we tried. We gave it our best shot. We understand the problems and can accept the relationship for what it was and why it ended. Heartbreaking stuff. But what's even more heartbreaking is over on the detaching boards -- I am so sad I can't even read the suffering there... .with so many not knowing why or what they could have done different or how to heal or get closure. You seem to have embraced all the learning and implementing and trying, the very best you could and so very thoughtfully.

How would you feel about making a clean break? As in, not even birthday greetings or Christmas cards?

I don't even like suggesting it knowing how painful that could be... .but a clean break probably heals better than a fracture and re-fracturing. I'm also an eternal optimist and believe that people can change. So it is very hard for me to balance these two opposing thoughts.

Mod Note: This thread was split from Pt 1    
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2016, 07:00:26 PM »

I tend to agree Jessica. We've been in clean break land for most of the last three years though, in the sense of -- I tell him we should not be in touch unless something changes for him, we have zero contact, he gets in touch, says how much he misses me, and sort of takes the measure of what the "price" would be to meet my conditions so we could re-start. That's happened 3-4 times in the last 2.5 years. For a permanent break, I'd have to not engage when he does this, and that IS in tension with my own feelings of people can change. (Though in the past five years I've seen zero changing here. Just a better understanding of why we don't match up, and on his part, a better understanding of what to say to re-start the conversation.)

I guess if it comes up, I'll have to evaluate it then. I have a lot of mourning to do in the meantime. I've mourned this r/ship as if it were permanently over so many times now.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2016, 12:16:13 PM »

I tell him we should not be in touch unless something changes for him, we have zero contact, he gets in touch, says how much he misses me, and sort of takes the measure of what the "price" would be to meet my conditions so we could re-start.

I know you've changed what you asked of him over the years here. Has he actually changed his behavior after the re-starts in any significant way?
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patientandclear
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2016, 01:11:53 PM »

No. It's virtually identical after five years. He seemingly has no additional skills or insights to guide him/us through the confusing and difficult feelings that come up. And his explanatory systems are either the same ("I don't know why" or getting less conducive to change ("I need to get away from memories/associations that make me feel like the bad guy".

Thanks for asking that question. I can get confused or vest unwarranted hope in things he says that sound close to real change, changed practices, changed values, changed thinking. All of those seeming possible changes give way very fast once we get underway. And what he thinks and his values system as its evolved to explain and rationalize his choices are pretty toxic waters for relationships. I do need to radically accept this. Thank you.

What confuses me is that he also seems sad, lonely and dissatisfied with how this is all playing out. In those windows when we are being ambiguous whatever to each other and he pours out how it really feels to be him, he is feeling increasingly empty and lonely. When he then also says words about growth, trying, change, maturing, and so on, I always think (with a measure of malignant hope assisting me to this belief) that he has made some kind of leap.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2016, 01:32:55 PM »

Sorry P&C

Do you think there may also be a bit of midlife crisis at play here as well? I kind of wonder if my guy was having a bout of that a few years ago. I knew something else was going on with him (undiagnosed), but he also had pretty classic symptoms of a midlife crisis. After discovering BPD I still wondered if it wasn't a combo of both.

Men without disorders go thru this confusing period and can some make reckless decisions during that time. Men with emotional disorders may have extra-extra difficulty coping with it and accepting their age limitations. Just a thought... .
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2016, 05:10:55 PM »

What confuses me is that he also seems sad, lonely and dissatisfied with how this is all playing out. In those windows when we are being ambiguous whatever to each other and he pours out how it really feels to be him, he is feeling increasingly empty and lonely.

I'm sure that it is that lonely, sad, and dissatisfying for him.

I'm sure he doesn't want that result.

He probably even has a clue or two about what he does to cause it, and wants to chance those things too.

Still... .that isn't sufficient for him to actually do anything different. Not too different from the alcoholic or drug addict that knows they need to stop but can't do it. Well, not yet, anyway, and have been at the "not yet" stage for decades.

You cannot plan your life around the idea that he will be able to make real changes, although it can happen.

Remember, you've been participating too for years, with some changes, but are still struggling with this. A lot. You can change what you do this time around.



I'm guessing that you have a fear that you will finally really give up on him, and then he will make the real change, and find some other woman to engage with and commit to, and you will be left out and alone. Even setting aside how unlikely that really is, I really doubt it would work out that way... .

If he was able to make those sorts of changes he needs to make himself into a suitable partner for you, he would have to realize how much and how badly he messed that up with you so far. I'd imagine him coming to you with some real regrets about what he did these past few years, perhaps begging you for forgiveness.

So far I've not personally observed somebody growing out of this kind of emotional unavailability; I think that is pretty rare... .but I *did* observe my wife when she finally "got it" around abusive/manipulative behavior toward me. (also a rare occurrence!) I'd had the boundaries solid for a year or two. I was able to shut it down quickly and without too much difficulty on my side. Then one day, I stopped needing to with her. It was very clear that something had finally shifted. (She'd been working on herself for quite a while... .and it all clicked into place at once.) Anyhow... .in the not-too-likely event that he does get past this, I'm going to speculate that you will KNOW the difference. (OTOH, if he doesn't actually do the work and change, and says things that sound kinda like change, you will probably once again wonder if he might somehow mean it this time for real... .)

I think the scenario where he "gets better" and you "miss out on it" is incredibly unlikely... .best chance would be him finally getting better long after you've moved on and are in a more satisfying relationship with a new guy!
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patientandclear
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2016, 06:38:16 PM »

Jessica and Grey Kitty, you guys are the best. Thank you. Yes, maybe he'll realize later that the "perfect person" (a construct we discussed a bit this time around--he says he knows it's not fair to compare me to the "perfect person" but said things also indicating he has not entirely let go of that hope) is not coming along. Cutting against the idea of that prompting any profound reconsideration by him, he's already equipped with philosophies about how things don't work out and that's OK, life is full of disappointment (and that's OK). So he can convert his sadness and loneliness into support for that. It's a kind of neurotic Buddhism, as an article I read recently brilliantly described this kind of giving up.

What haunts me is not that he is going to organically work this out and be with someone else--I think chances are slim and as you say, GK, if those changes happened, our story and the way we've left things are such that I do think he'd want to tell me all about the changes and we'd be well situated to resume something.

What haunts me is more that I'm afraid this was the best chance, and I messed it up somehow. That by just sort of awkwardly lurching through the fears and apprehensions and defensive mechanisms, we'd have cleared into a better place that would allow some on the job learning, as it were, that staying together and NOT bolting and bailing can actually yield some pretty awesome benefits.

I guess I feel like stumbling on another way almost by accident is the best shot of this changing, and that this was the closest we were likely to get in some time, because he was openly "trying" under the terms that work for me (a real primary r/ship) and said all kinds of helpful things about going slow, listening, sharing feelings etc.

I have a persistent feeling that if I'd let it drift for a while without calling the question of whether or not he was bailing :/, we might have stumbled into a new way of being with each other. My therapist (nicely) snorts at this. She says people do not just fall into committed relationships, especially not when those habits cut against decades of coping mechanisms and ingrained habits of dealing with emotional discomfort.

Wish I'd hung in there to see.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 01:47:54 AM »

What haunts me is more that I'm afraid this was the best chance, and I messed it up somehow.

Often around pwBPD, I've said or heard it said "It isn't about you, it is about him." For example when he criticizes you for something unreasonable, which also happens to be projection of something he's doing that you arent.   Those kind of things have nothing to do with you, and everything to do with what your partner needs to do.

That he had to blow up the relationship (again) is one of those which was all about him.

HOWEVER, your fear that you somehow messed up the best chance... .that is all yours. And it seems persistent too! Where does that fear come from? How far back do you have that kind of fear/feeling? Is there more to that feeling that you should explore (I know it will be uncomfortable!)

Excerpt
I have a persistent feeling that if I'd let it drift for a while without calling the question of whether or not he was bailing :/, we might have stumbled into a new way of being with each other. My therapist (nicely) snorts at this. She says people do not just fall into committed relationships, especially not when those habits cut against decades of coping mechanisms and ingrained habits of dealing with emotional discomfort.

  I like your therapist! And I'd try to snort nicely too
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2016, 02:04:45 AM »

*laughing*

My persistent belief that there must have been something I could have done differently to avoid the painful result is a trauma reaction--trying to gain control. I know it but I still slip into it. Thanks for noting it and thus getting me to recall that.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 11:55:39 AM »

Nononono... please don't blame yourself!

This is not your fault. Even in these difficult relationships, you are allowed to make mistakes without it resulting in him running away. That is HIS choice based on HIS confused mind. Don't buy into his belief that you must be perfect to keep him. We have all made mistakes here. I've made plenty. No relationship should require us to be perfect all the time. Perfect timing, perfect word choices, perfect everything. That is too much to ask of anyone and causes us to walk on eggshells. 

If he is that delicate, literally anything could trigger him to run. Mine used to find "signs", like omens. He passed a dead bird on a sidewalk once while on the phone with me. He took it as a sign our relationship was doomed. A week later he argued with me at a restaurant over how I "ate too slow" - that was his straw! Well that and the dead bird - so he broke up. I beat myself up (as you are doing now) wishing I had just eaten faster that day. How twisted was that? I have better examples that are far less ridiculous - like bringing up living together. Always the same result. There was something in HIS head causing him to look for a way out. I just didn't see it at the time. GK is right -- this has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him. Please be kind to yourself. 
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2016, 03:39:24 PM »

P&C, I'm glad you can laugh about it, and glad you are aware of it.

Do you think you are making progress against that trauma reaction / belief that you somehow had control over what made things go bad?
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patientandclear
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 07:03:43 PM »

I'd say ... .No. I still have a strong visceral conviction that I could have altered this somehow. I can see consciously that some of the appeal of that idea for me is the trauma-inspired instinct to control the outcome and prevent the pain. But part of it, honestly, lies in the thoughtful teaching on this board, about how the way we interact with our SOs CAN make a difference.  I don't want to engage in eggshell walking or caretaking ... .But it seems to me that there can be differences in approach at key crossroads moments that do make a difference to the outcome.

I do see a pattern here where the man I'm writing about dabbles at considering being willing to explore arrangements that would work for me, in order to retrieve my interest, attention, friendship, affection, etc. And that he is not coming into these conversations persuaded that he really wants to be my partner. Painful as it is, I see that he presently wants something (my continued role in his life as an adjunct to his quest for true love) different from what I want or will accept. And what I want or can live with, he does not presently think he wants.

So it IS a little crazy to think that quietly waiting through a week or a few more emails might have turned this around. I do recall quite a few stories on this board in which posters' patience and not calling the question of status or intention allowed the pwBPD to relax and feel more comfortable moving forward in the relationship. So I'm not certain why this might not have been that scenario ... .

If anyone can set me straight that would be welcome.


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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2016, 08:29:15 PM »

Yes, a pwBPD will respond better when you've learned better practices. You see that all the time around here.

When you enforce boundaries consistently, the pwBPD doesn't push against them as often or as hard (after the extinction burst, at least)

When you validate, the pwBPD feels safer, may open up, and may not need to act out as often or as powerfully.

When you are stop being invalidating, you don't trigger things quite as often.

Yet they WILL be triggered sooner or later, no matter how "perfect" you are.

When a pwBPD just up and leaves, there's not much you can do to bring them back. (Being needy and demanding and chasing after them with hundreds of texts/emails may push them farther away... .but you aren't doing that!) There are gentle ways to make it easier for them to return... .and for pwBPD who will do silent treatment for a day or a week or a month, helping them go through it in a few hours or just a day is a big improvement.

Your guy seems to just run for the hills for months when he has this kind of episode.

Also, you and he want different and incompatible relationship models from the best I can see. You've looked far and wide for compromise positions and found as much as you can do there. That leaves three options:
1. He capitulates and does it your way.
2. You capitulate and do it his way.
3. You and he don't have much of a relationship.

I don't think that presenting this situation better will change it, and from the last few years of evidence, he can't do #1, and you can't do #2.
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patientandclear
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2016, 02:09:00 AM »

What's complicated here for my sense of what might be possible is ... .he does not leave.  Anyone in real life or here who thinks this relationship might settle into a place that works for us both seems to think it would happen sort of through natural evolution over time (my therapist does not agree that this is really possible, but some folks here have theorized that it could happen this way, as it did in their relationships) with zero pressure.  That dictates that I go with his approach, and hope, and assume I can enforce boundaries later if it comes to that, and also, not worry about the very real chance that I would never know if he was seeing others (he is an extreme compartmentalizer, especially when he knows there are consequences of sharing the information).

I don't do this because I tried it before, and he very clearly wanted to see other people and did, despite that he and I had a lovely ambiguous intimate thing.  It seems highly likely that he would again want to, and absent some agreement that we aren't doing that, because of ... .commitment to a monogamous relationship ... .it feels like I'm walking into a known ambush.

But all of this to say: it's not that he runs for the hills.  It's that I do.  Or rather, what happens is: I'm gone, due to boundary enforcement.  He approaches and says things designed to re-engage.  I ask questions and he seems sincere and in a different place.  I make my terms clear.  He says he accepts.  We engage.  He freaks out & asks to be friends.  I re-apply the original boundary and then I am gone.

So if I wanted to stick around and see, I am sure I could do that.  :)oes anyone here not think that would be stupid and knowingly walking into the known hole in the street?

I should note that when we are on his terms it feels delicious, I think to both of us.  Fun, sexy, unpredictable, exciting, because not required, voluntary, etc.  So it's not like that isn't fun.  It's just a fun that, for me, runs off a cliff when it turns out he's in love with someone else.  Or at least, that has happened at least once or twice before.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2016, 03:12:09 AM »

I should note that when we are on his terms it feels delicious, I think to both of us.  Fun, sexy, unpredictable, exciting, because not required, voluntary, etc.  So it's not like that isn't fun.  It's just a fun that, for me, runs off a cliff when it turns out he's in love with someone else.  Or at least, that has happened at least once or twice before.

You need monogamy. He can't do monogamy, at least not for long. You sure can't count on him changing there, so that leave you doing the changing. It is almost a shame you can't go there with him.

I mean, from how you describe his life in the time you've been involved with him, he's had some kind of r/s with a handful of other women, but none of them actually worked/lasted for long... .and something tells me that he's not at much risk of finding one that does!

But I'd bet the feeling that he's going to be at least obsessively chasing after some other woman for a few weeks or months ... .AGAIN ... .just isn't going to work for you.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2016, 12:07:55 PM »

P&C - it sounds like you aren't quite ready to give up. Grey Kitty is giving wise advice, but you still seem stuck. Maybe you're a hopeless optimist like me.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  It has its upsides but also sets us up for huge disappointments.

Also sounds like you need closure. For the record, I don't recommend this... .

BUT--- if you need one final chance at closure, one way or another, to settle this once and for all -- the next time he re-engages and offers a comfortable level of commitment for you, what if you were able to drop your fears and see what happens? Enjoy those 'delicious' moments again?  Smiling (click to insert in post) If you worked hard right now to let go of the past and all your fears of the future? If you could take this time to forgive him... and yourself too? And know firmly that you will come out of this a stronger wiser person no matter what happens? Also reminding yourself that this... is... .it. The last stop. Then-- IF he violates that trust again, well, you will know you've done all you could. You can walk away knowing that yes, you foolishly jumped down that rabbit hole again, got scraped up (again), then brush yourself off and disengage from him -- permanently.

Again, not recommending it. I don't know your full history. This was the path I took a few years ago. Once I got past my grief, I worked on forgiveness and letting go of old grudges. He came back around (as he always does) saying all the right things. I decided to give it one last chance--- for the last time. I needed that for my own sake, for closure - since I'm not normally a masochist! I invested too much of my heart, time and energy not to. But I was slightly less invested in the outcome -- more willing to accept whatever happened, prepared to close that chapter if need be, and reassured myself that I would be ok, either way. I surrounded myself with supportive people in case I fell, while also trying to shake off the fears and resentments so I could embrace the present and enjoy being with him in the moment. (A little hope mixed with a lot of realism). It felt like the insanity definition - doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. But not exactly. For me, it was more than a boundary, it was a conviction.

As much as it pains me to send anyone down their own rabbit hole again... .if I'm reading you correctly, you're where I was - not ready to cut the cord yet. Filled with regrets and blaming yourself, at least partially. And at the same time, scared/worried you'll end up in the same boat you're in now, only not sure you can handle the same pain all over again. That could be me projecting. I'd just like to see you get un-stuck in the healthiest way possible.      Only you know what is best for you.
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2016, 04:55:28 PM »

Jessica -- that's a good read of where I'm at (fairly miserable actually, not satisfied that I handled this in a way that gave us the chance to move through the small window that was presented and get some practice with this being fun and rewarding and worth slogging through the scary feelings on both sides).

But I'm not sure that what you're suggesting is different from what just happened.  My only requirement is that we not enter into the dynamic as "friends" because to him, "friends" means I have no expectations and nothing to be unhappy about if he sees other women, and indeed, I should be planning on it.  I'm not speculating about that, as, when I tried it without investigating explicitly what the implications of "friends" were from his perspective, it indeed played out that way (he moved, he was annoyed with and punished me by withdrawing from contact altogether for 10 weeks for expressing the least regret or loss about his decision to move, and then he started dating others with great enthusiasm and passion just after we'd reunited and spent a couple of wonderful visits together).

So empirically, I know that to him, "friends" meant something he does with me alongside dating others.

Are you saying that if he re-engages me, I should try "friends" again, pour my best self into that, make it good (and it always is good, as I said -- exciting, unpredictable, sexy) and just pull the plug if he starts dating others again?

First off, that seems like a pretty serious abandonment of a boundary I've held for nearly three years.  That he's worked and worked to erode, not always openly, sometimes with a lot of manipulation.  That seems like it could have some pretty negative consequences (why would he ever believe I had a real boundary even again?)

Secondly, this time around, I had set the framework (being partners not friends) and he accepted it.  Short of that, I had zero additional requirements.  Not sure how I did anything here other than just participate with an open heart.  I was quite unguarded.  He asked to "go slow" and I honored that, but ... .I wasn't anxious or worried, was just going with the flow.  (Until he was talking about friends again and I ended up sort of calling the question, which I do regret as I've said.)

Do you mean re-enter something with him under a "friends" framework?  Because he defines it as that -- it isn't just ambiguous.  I offered him ambiguous this time and he made sure to spell out that that would only work for him if he could also date other women.

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Jessica84
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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2016, 05:35:20 PM »

Are you saying that if he re-engages me, I should try "friends" again, pour my best self into that, make it good (and it always is good, as I said -- exciting, unpredictable, sexy) and just pull the plug if he starts dating others again?

Yes, exactly. Even if he defines "friends" as seeing others. Mine did that too. Mr. Anti-Monogamy. (Where's the eye-roll emoji?)  He kept bringing certain women up, even took one out or confided he had a "crush"... .but it was mostly a test. I realized this "just friends" structure was more his safety net than a reality. Nothing came of these women. As soon as he trusted me not to put up a wall or bolt immediately, he felt safer to climb a littler higher toward me, over time. I had to dismantle his walls while building up mine, but one brick at a time. And now I'm his "girlfriend". No guarantees it will work the same, but I had the same boundary - turned out it was too rigid for him. Too high to climb all at once. Now it's far more comfortable for him. Even preferred, I think?

Excerpt
First off, that seems like a pretty serious abandonment of a boundary I've held for nearly three years.  That he's worked and worked to erode, not always openly, sometimes with a lot of manipulation.  That seems like it could have some pretty negative consequences (why would he ever believe I had a real boundary even again?)

Same here. No need to give up your boundary. It is there in place should you need it. And why does he need to believe it? As long as YOU do. This time, be convicted on the inside and you won't need to express it to him. He may feel it. I know you want to emphasize how dire it is that he not test you, but there is really no way to know (or stop) what he will do. This is about YOU. Does that make sense?

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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2016, 12:21:44 AM »

I think that doing "friends" with him will some risk of him dating other women, but a very low risk of much of anything long-term coming from it.

I think Jessica's suggestion is that you give it one more shot since you aren't quite ready to be done. I get where she's coming from. In fact, I found a similar conflict pattern with my wife at the end of our marriage. (Short background: We opened our marriage up with two people; I broke up with the woman after a year or two; the man died suddenly after about three years. A year after that, my wife decided she was going to sleep with another guy. Our version of open was one where we asked permission before adding people. Until that guy who she told me she was going to whether I liked it or not.)

Anyhow, what I found was that the way we handled these questions there was something like what Jessica experienced--if I didn't lay down the law and demand that she stop / cut contact with him, she found it easier to back down and do exactly that. Perhaps you will have some luck that way. Not sure where it will take you, but there is only one way to find out.

You've been pretty consistent that non-monogamy doesn't feel right for you. I don't want to try to convince you otherwise or that you should back down from that boundary.

That said, I see this about your situation: A relationship where he's free to date other women is more likely to work for him than one where he isn't. [Of course if you accepted this, it would seem reasonable and justified for you to date other men... .and I'd give him decent odds of responding badly if he discovered that you did just that... .even though I'd expect him to say it would be ok by him.]
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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2016, 12:32:35 AM »

Okay, here's Ms. less-than-20 posts belly-flopping into the deep end again... . But I just can't help trying to join forces with such cool and decent people, who help one another and reach out for help at the same time.

Patient, Grey Kitty says it's almost a shame you can't say yes to where your guy has again landed, (and this time more explicitly?): wanting to hold open the door to (other) romantic relationships at last contact.  

Jessica84 contributes some devil's advocacy for any potential re-connection with very specific changes in procedure (don't force a status convo) and, I guess, psychological stances: unexpressed boundaries that are there when/if you need them, just enjoying the moment, etc.

I'm with them, enjoying what you and your guy have had that has been so wonderful, and wanting to say something that will contribute in some small way toward helping you see if there is any way forward with this man... . or not.

Why of course he doesn't leave!  He'd be crazy to, by all you're revealing.  Oh, I'd lay the entire farm on the fact that what you give him (understanding, acceptance, love, within the context of knowing all, and over time and difficult circumstance, plus all that YOU are) will not be found in other quarters.  GC's right on that one.  He wants what you are offering too badly.  In fact, he even seems to fantasize about integration.  I mean, he came back (end of June, was it?) asking for the whole enchilada, romantic relationship included... . I bet that his pulling back on that one has everything to do with the fear that integration and one-stop-shopping intimacy brings; if you leave, what is he left with?

It does seem to me that you are at least in a space where talking about this helps.  Accepting, dialoguing with and / or respectfully declining the ideas of others (whether because they are based on incomplete understanding, too much reliance on our own circumstances rather than yours, just don't fit, or ... .) seems to be helping.  

I think I'm now seeing that your situation has moved from his wanting a romantic relationship, to his being okay with ambiguity and a lovers' relationship but asking you to bear the decision-freight for it, to the friends thing, in about five weeks' time.  (My guy is like this, too.  He can't "hold" to a decision about what he wants from me, instead pinging all over the place.  It used to stop my heart and turn my blood cold, and I made a million demands like you would with a normal person, then I just was sad, and finally came around to something like "aw, whatevs, dude... ."  The last works the best.)  Among other things, the fact that your guy can shift so fast, and has in the past included other women during "friendship" phases, shuts down on any intentional positive progression of overt/forthright conversation,  are causes for concern about any future.

It seems, though, that the real deal-breaker is if: you continue to love him non-platonically, and he reciprocates but w/o sex and has quasi-affairs on the side (which he fantasizes are the Real and True Love).

As I've shared before, I not only respect your position, but would also have to cut ties if my guy avidly pursued unexamined intimacy with me, I continued loving him romantically, and he were with other women too.  Especially secretively.  You may be stuck with your decision to cut him off again, if some or all of these (for example) are true:

a.) there is no possibility he is evolving at all through all of this

b.) you are not in a place (or, he continued to manipulate you away from a place, and this were too difficult) where you could, if you had to, accept a platonic relationship with no stipulations about other women (which may be perceived by your guy and effect different responses, as they seem to have done for Jessica).  Being, or not being, in this place is your (potential) reality, nether good nor bad.

c.) there is zero chance that more sustained "tweaks" will contribute to your potential happiness (as well as his).  That is, the improvement-over-time-and-alternate-experience thing, is next to not possible.  

All of this said, I thought before I read you bring it up, that the difficulty with your guy is that, in the past, he has both hidden his activity and it has seemed to have escalated after you guys have had particularly good times as "friends," with no pressure from you.  So, I understand that this experience and evidence could sway you away from this.

Anyway, like Jessica, I feel that I am typing in the dark a bit.  I sense, though, that rather than destabilize you, this sort of questioning from very safe people, makes you stronger and clearer in your own evolving ideas in the longer run.  So, since your deeply held personal convictions shouldn't shift, what else possibly could? 

Hugs,

lar, laris









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lar, laris

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2016, 12:34:13 AM »

Oh, hey, wait, I have 25 posts! 
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Jessica84
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2016, 03:20:27 PM »

Lar - Pretty advanced for 25 posts  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I wasn't suggesting an open relationship. Hope she didn't take it that way! Patient has made it clear she doesn't want that, and I don't blame her. I wouldn't want that either.

I was suggesting accepting his definition of "friends" - let him have his blankie, his safety net. Shutting the "escape hatch" door to someone like this can cause them to panic. This is a way of easing the pressure. The hope is that he will feel safer and less likely to pull that hatch, or want to. And maybe over time, nail it shut, himself!

But if he ACTED on it, then she has her boundaries.

He HAS to know by now where she stands on exclusivity/monogamy/primary partnership.

Mine knew very clearly how I felt. I was rigid about it. But when we got back together, there was no "big talk" about our status this time. He started to (admitting he didn't like "grey areas", but I didn't let him go there. Just went with the flow, kept things light, changed the subject. When we were clearly a couple again, and he said we were "just friends" I let it slide. He invited me to go out of town with him, but stipulated "but not as girlfriend/boyfriend". These statements used to hurt me. Until I realized this was his way of maintaining control and made him feel safer in the relationship, without the pressure of a committed status label. So I let him have his "friends" label - all the while knowing if he pursued someone else, our "friendship" would be over. And I believe somewhere in that brain of his, he knew that too.
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Cardinals in Flight
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2016, 02:44:26 PM »

Lar - Pretty advanced for 25 posts  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I wasn't suggesting an open relationship. Hope she didn't take it that way! Patient has made it clear she doesn't want that, and I don't blame her. I wouldn't want that either.

I was suggesting accepting his definition of "friends" - let him have his blankie, his safety net. Shutting the "escape hatch" door to someone like this can cause them to panic. This is a way of easing the pressure. The hope is that he will feel safer and less likely to pull that hatch, or want to. And maybe over time, nail it shut, himself!

But if he ACTED on it, then she has her boundaries.

He HAS to know by now where she stands on exclusivity/monogamy/primary partnership.

Mine knew very clearly how I felt. I was rigid about it. But when we got back together, there was no "big talk" about our status this time. He started to (admitting he didn't like "grey areas", but I didn't let him go there. Just went with the flow, kept things light, changed the subject. When we were clearly a couple again, and he said we were "just friends" I let it slide. He invited me to go out of town with him, but stipulated "but not as girlfriend/boyfriend". These statements used to hurt me. Until I realized this was his way of maintaining control and made him feel safer in the relationship, without the pressure of a committed status label. So I let him have his "friends" label - all the while knowing if he pursued someone else, our "friendship" would be over. And I believe somewhere in that brain of his, he knew that too.

I think you dated my BPDgf, this is exactly what needed to happen, it just felt crappy on my side though to be unacknowledged.
I finally found peace with it.
The more I let go, the more I got back, like this feral cat someone used to tell me about
Peace
CiF
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patientandclear
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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2016, 03:20:24 AM »

Hi Jessica, lar, laris, Grey Kitty & Cardinals!  Thanks so much for your thoughts in the last several posts.  I've been reflecting on what you said and suggested as possibilities.  As you can imagine, the idea that there is some way to do this that is satisfying and doesn't leave me feeling I sold my sold is very attractive, and I want it to be possible to pursue the sort of angle some of your posts lay out.  I came back to explain why I don't think that's possible.

Grey Kitty, I hear you that his other liaisons are short lived (very -- several months seems typical, with a passionate start and a fiery ending).  Whereas our thing, whatever it is, is more enduring.  That is true.  In a way that's exactly what I find intolerable about the arrangement.  Our thing is based in reality and actual knowing, and that idea that that makes me somehow ineligible for real partner status while women he barely knows who barely know him are (briefly) celebrated as life-changing connections is just almost per se not OK with me.  It also resonates with some other stuff in my past, in which for whatever reason men who had the chance to and knew me well and sorta kinda loved me deeply ended up not choosing me -- just not something it's healthy for me to repeat over and over.

Also, when he's in pursuit of these other loves, what is normally a healthy-feeling dynamic between us sort of changes subtly into what feels like using.  He doesn't fill me in on the goings-on, so there's some hiding that feels crappy, but also, he seems to be extracting emotional fuel or resources from me to make the other thing work, if that makes sense.  I really hate that feeling.

Jessica & lar, laris, your point that the freedom to make other choices may ironically allow him to choose me -- I do get that.  I would be so, so tempted to go back in and try that now, except ... .when I really think about it, I've already given that a very sincere shot.  When we first reunited after the breakup and nearly a year of NC, I went in as a "friend" (my designation) and completely accepted his terms when he doubled down on how we were only friends, and then proceeded to build a relationship that was much more intimate and meaningful than what had gone on between us when we were lovers.  I extracted no terms, labels or promises -- I gave freely what he wanted, which was a lot.  We got closer and closer and then ... .we didn't turn into boyfriend-girlfriend; instead, he made that sudden move across country and after we made up after that break, he started seriously dating other women, which I kind of think may have been the main point of the move in the first place.  He told me he wanted "other people, places and things," that's why he left, and he found them.

With that history, his use of the word "friends" has some specific meaning when it comes to the likelihood that he will pursue other relationships.  It means I'd be crazy to think he will not. He will. In this way, he may be different from the men you are involved with, who, it seems, may want or have wanted flexible framing, but haven't exercised their freedom to go actually form intense passionate "love-of-my-life" relationships with other women.  My guy has, and he and I both know that when he is insisting on "friends," he fully means to retain the prerogative to pursue these other primary relationships.  That also matters now that I think of it -- our relationship may in fact BE primary, but he never gives it that acknowledgement.  To these other women and perhaps in his mind, the new women are the main event and I am a side dish, at least until they end.  Not compatible with the underlying truth, which bothers me, and also, not a job I want.

He also is just at a place in his life where it's easy to secure other plausible and at least momentarily engaging and diverting partners.  He's attractive, charming, able to be unemployed so he has a super flexible schedule, he can move on a whim, he's masterful at making women fall in love with him.  And he knows that.  So--it's not just a theoretical right, it's an option right at his fingertips at all times.  I think that bears on what is likely to actually happen were I to accept and return to the "friends" category.

I do still regret not remaining still while he sorted out his feelings.  When he pulled the plug this time, in response to my inquiry, he did so in a way that I think will make it very hard for us to back up to the point where we could both live with the arrangement long enough to actually do this relationship for a while rather than just talk about it and imagine it.  Now he seems to be on the hyper-alert that I want to make him miserable and deprive him of romance and true love by forcing him to be faithful to me; and I am very aware that in his mind I don't qualify as a romantic partner.  I wish we hadn't found ourselves saying those words so fast, given all the apparent good faith and good work at the outset this time around.  But now that they've been said, I think accepting the "friends" designation would be accepting the near certainty I'd be his intimate unacknowledged other half while he falls in love with actual other women whom he might or might not let me know about.  And if that really is my boundary, it seems like it would be pretty crappy then to withdraw from the friendship even though he would have done nothing but what he's telling me right now he is going to do, and what I have every reason to think he will do.
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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2016, 11:18:33 AM »

And if that really is my boundary, it seems like it would be pretty crappy then to withdraw from the friendship even though he would have done nothing but what he's telling me right now he is going to do, and what I have every reason to think he will do.

Stop putting your needs and feelings down like that.

There is nothing "crappy" about removing yourself from a friendship that will break your heart and make you lose sleep.

At most you owe him this kind of explanation... .but it wouldn't be news to him and he doesn't seem to get it in any way that leads him to make accomodations to your needs regarding it.
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patientandclear
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« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2016, 11:28:34 AM »

Thank you GK  . I didn't mean it that way. I didn't mean I would owe him to stay in the "friendship," but we're well out of that now, and what I'm saying is, if I went back IN now, with all the knowledge I have and the very clear words he has said, only to withdraw if he actually does what he says he's going to do and did in the past, that would be needlessly traumatic. It's not like he'd be breaking a rule or I'd realize there'd been a misunderstanding.

He does know what I wrote above. Very clearly at this point.

We haven't been in an active "friendship" for more than a year (according to him, as he ignored or misunderstood what I said about terms last year) or for 2.5 years according to me. Starting again now under these terms that don't work for me doesn't seem like something that is respectful of either of us. That's what I meant about how it seems crappy to set up a situation in which we have an amazing relationship and then I leave it when he does what I already have every reason to think he will do.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2016, 02:01:08 PM »

Patient - I'm so sorry you are in this pickle. You've made great strides in accepting this r/s for what it is. I think where you are stuck now is on what could have been. This is where you may need to let go and work on healing the damage this reconnect has caused you.

I didn't mean to oversell you on something you've already tried. I saw similarities from the past in my own r/s. I had a wanna-be ladies man too, but one who has thankfully outgrown it. I know how this behavior can whittle down one's self-worth wondering why am I not enough? It hurts. It can make a person feel used and worthless. Even though all over these boards they tell us not to take it personally, it is far easier said than done. So, that is the work ahead for you.

You don't have to keep playing the role he wants you to play. YOU get to decide your role, your worth, your value. What he does defines him, not you. The roles YOU choose define you. So choose a role that honors you best. Maybe next time he comes looking for mommy, he'll see mommy doesn't live here anymore. You have been good to him and bent over backwards to accommodate him, and yet, he won't commit. What more can you do?

Maybe I've grown cynical, but I think love should be unconditional only when it comes to ourselves -- all others must earn it.  Smiling (click to insert in post) Unless it's a puppy. Humans are far too complex, hence why we have boundaries-- conditions. This is how we give ourselves absolute love.  
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lar, laris

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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2016, 09:54:38 PM »

Hi, Patient,

Wow, are you ever strong and brave.  I see better now how your heart and mind remain true to yourself through your difficult decision. You've shown what a wonderful person would have been true again to this difficult individual, had he been capable of being still himself.

Something tells me he very likely was missing the person who loved and accepted him so radically.  Given the gift that you were again offering, and the further context, it seems very wise for you to have done what you did by holding to your position this time through.

It seems like perhaps you have had opportunity to practice some radical self-care/love this painful time around, even in graciously explaining your situation to us in further detail in response to our human efforts.  Thank you for coming back to do this.

I hope that this progress contributes to whatever you come to understand would be next with your guy, should he come back around.  It certainly seems that he has not forgotten what you meant and mean to him.  He clearly cares for you in a way that he cannot find with others. And now you have not backed down on the aspects of your former relationship with him that you find incompatible, even after time; he cannot be unclear any more, that's for sure.  You have also shown him that time has not changed your feelings for him, or toward his brokenness, which you accept.  And he will have to continue to fail at "romantic" (and other?) relationships with this in mind, for you clearly have remained on his mind. 

Even though things are not currently where you might have wished a month ago, this all seems to be a certain type of progress, even where he is concerned, given the tough context.   

I also agree with Jessica84: non-attachment is a good practice right now, being still in yourself, and being still where he is concerned.  Although sadly the same does not seem true for your guy, you have a wonderful (sense of) self to be still in, and with. 

Peace,
lar, laris
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