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jrharvey
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« on: August 16, 2016, 01:16:53 PM »

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So this is how it started. We are in a VERY VERY heated argument right now and the above conversations started everything. Me and her had a long talk all night and we each had things we wanted each other to work on. I had a list and she had a list. We both agreed to work on things.

So Im thinking everything is fine and Im pretty happy and busy working this morning and this starts. She feels like I don't care because I didn't text her. I feel like I have been texting her first so much for the past few weeks. Its been almost every time. I understood her concern and tried to let her know that nothing was wrong and I am still happy with her. After this conversation we continued to talk a bit about school and she mentioned she had homework and may not be able to talk tonight. I said that is fine and school comes first. I said I hope we can talk tonight and I hope you do want to work on things and make it better. She then said... .
Excerpt
So ask urself if u want to talk and be good . Or that list doesn't mean anything to you

I told her that comment was not needed and I was being nice and loving and she didn't need to say that. It all blew up from there. She got mad, I got mad and now she is saying I blew up on her during the first conversation and Im not changing and some other stuff.

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Meili
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2016, 02:33:51 PM »

I hate to be the one to say this, but I think that she's right. You weren't listening to her and you invalidated her. She straight up told you that you weren't listening to her and you ignored that.

Then, you made matters worse by telling her that she was wrong. Not good... .

To further add fuel to the fire, when she said "time out" you ignored it and kept going.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2016, 02:41:34 PM »

So... .

What could I have said better? I tried to let her know I did care about her and nothing was wrong. What would be a better way to validate?

Honestly I'm just frustrated because I'm going about my morning and working and I'm pretty happy with her and all of a sudden she pops up and says... .Hey look I'm unhappy with you now. I don't know how to just exist without possing her off. Just living seems to upset her.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2016, 03:12:58 PM »

And here is another thing that drives me nuts. She was upset because I didn't text her first but she does this a lot. She will wait and test me to see if I will contact her first. Like a test. I can text her 10 times in a row first and if one day she decides she will test and I get busy and don't do it she gets hurt and upset. Then she gets defensive if I take too long to respond. Even if I am in a meeting she doesn't understand. It was only 15 minutes. However now that she is upset she is ignoring me. Its been an hour and a half and she has read my messages but wont respond. Its a twisted and messed up way of coping with problems.
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Meili
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 03:24:14 PM »

@11:21 She tells you what's wrong.
@11:28 You reply with an explanation about part of what she said. You didn't validate what she was feeling, and that was that she felt unimportant.

The same thing happened in response to her 11:34 and 11:42 messages. But this time, in the 11:42 response, you tell her that she's wrong for feeling as she does.

@11:50, after she's been telling you for 30 minutes that she's unhappy, you ask her if something's wrong.

@11:52, you start out by telling her how she feels, and then her that she's wrong for feeling that way.

I'll just start with that.
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Meili
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2016, 03:38:48 PM »

She was upset because I didn't text her first but she does this a lot.

I too have had to deal with those things and I know how frustrating they are. It seems completely unfair.

But, let's not forget that one of the hallmarks of BPD is the fear of abandonment. It appears that you two had a deep conversation the night before. The next morning, when her emotions are still raw, you doesn't hear from you. Right, wrong, or indifferent, she was triggered. It doesn't matter what happened 10 minutes, much less for the 10 days prior. At that moment, she was triggered and reached out to you for comfort, security, and assurance.

Rationalizing with an emotionally charged person won't work. It really won't work with a dysregulated person. They aren't going to magically step back from their edge just because you told them that they should.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 03:45:04 PM »

Hmm maybe I am thinking about this wrong. Here is what I see when I look at this message.

Excerpt
@11:21 She tells you what's wrong.
@11:28 You reply with an explanation about part of what she said. You didn't validate what she was feeling, and that was that she felt unimportant.

The same thing happened in response to her 11:34 and 11:42 messages

I read what is wrong and I reassure her in a loving way that nothing is wrong and I am not upset with her. She was asking me questions. I answered those questions. She always tells me to just answer the questions without getting upset or talking about something else. So if I shouldn't tell her WHY I did what I did when she ask me what should I do? What would be a better thing to say?

Excerpt
@11:50, after she's been telling you for 30 minutes that she's unhappy, you ask her if something's wrong.
True... .I already knew she was unhappy. I could tell. The problem is that if I ASSUME she is unhappy she flips out on me. I have to ask first because often time if I say I feel like your unhappy with me she loses it.

Excerpt
@11:52, you start out by telling her how she feels, and then her that she's wrong for feeling that way.
I 100% agree here. This is where I messed up. I know. I just kinda felt like I was being put down for what I was doing even though she does the same. We are both human. I work and she works. She was upset I didn't text her first but I can text her first for weeks at a time and I never get upset with her. She text me first twice in a row and gets upset with me. Its just not fair and its not how you treat someone you love. Its not being understanding of your partner. And being upset that I took too long to respond. I gave her a very good and reasonable reason why I took 15 minutes to respond but it wasn't enough. Its like she expects me to walk out of my meeting and talk to her. And so many times she is at work and wont respond for hours. I don't get upset with her. It doesn't help anything if I tell her... .Hey babe. I was really upset you took 2 hours to respond to my question. It makes me feel like you don't care. Even if she says I do care babe I just wasn't working. If I get upset after that its pointless. Its completely unfair and un caring. Its all me me me me me and not even thinking about the fact that I have a job and have things I have to do god forbid.


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jrharvey
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 03:48:03 PM »

Excerpt
At that moment, she was triggered and reached out to you for comfort, security, and assurance.
Wasn't I being comforting, assuring and caring? I don't understand. Maybe Im just reading it wrong.
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Meili
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 04:20:28 PM »

I'm trying to figure out a way to actually discuss the words that were used without retyping the entire conversation.

I read what is wrong and I reassure her in a loving way that nothing is wrong and I am not upset with her. She was asking me questions. I answered those questions. She always tells me to just answer the questions without getting upset or talking about something else. So if I shouldn't tell her WHY I did what I did when she ask me what should I do? What would be a better thing to say?

But, she didn't actually ask you why. She told you that she how she felt, what she hoped, and why she was upset. You ignored the second part of why she was upset completely until she reiterated it. Something very simple such as:

Excerpt
Oh, Honey, I'm so sorry. After our talk last night, I can see how you'd feel hurt by my not texting you first thing today. And, then, my not being able to text you back until 15 minutes later must have made it feel worse!

might have stopped the whole argument dead in its tracks. In those moments, the how's and why's aren't important unless you are asked for them. Trying to explain away another's feelings is very hurtful.

True... .I already knew she was unhappy. I could tell. The problem is that if I ASSUME she is unhappy she flips out on me. I have to ask first because often time if I say I feel like your unhappy with me she loses it.

Fair enough, in that case, the question should have come at the very beginning of  not 30 minutes into it.

I 100% agree here. This is where I messed up. I know. I just kinda felt like I was being put down for what I was doing even though she does the same.

Well, yeah, you were! But, playing tit-for-tat isn't ever going to do anything but escalate the situation. Reasoning has gone out the window at this point.

No, it's not fair, but these types of relationships are not fair. It kinda goes with the territory. Also, while I agree that it isn't how you treat someone that you love, you are looking at that through the eyes of a non. You're looking at it from a place of thought rather than emotion.

I can also agree with you that it wasn't enough. But, I would guess that it wasn't enough because you weren't giving her what she needed at that moment. She didn't need you to explain why, she needed you to know that she was scared and or hurt.
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2016, 10:53:22 AM »

yes, there were missteps in this conversation to be sure. it reminds me a great deal of my relationship, the anxiety i would feel when those "questions" (interrogations) started. take heart, i handled things much worse. this is a learning process.

i cant help but feel that this is an enmeshed situation. youre at work. this stuff will distract you, build your resentment, and potentially effect your job. whats more, you keep taking the bait.

is there a boundary to set around conversations at work (it may involve compromise)? can you stay out of interrogations and circular arguments?
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2016, 11:00:43 AM »

It might be safer to simply say that you can't text at work unless it's an emergency. Period. Get off the merry-go-round, rather than trying to figure out which horse you should ride.

If your pwBPD is going to feel insecure and abandoned, she will feel that way, and she will find a way to blame you for it. If it's not that you didn't text first, it will be that you didn't say the right thing when you texted, or that you used the wrong emoji. She's going to put that blame for her negative feelings on you, because that's how BPD works, and you can't pre-emptively validate her and prevent it from happening. So reduce the opportunities to have these kind of meltdowns at work, where you need to be focusing on work.
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jrharvey
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2016, 12:13:18 PM »

Excerpt
i cant help but feel that this is an enmeshed situation. youre at work. this stuff will distract you, build your resentment, and potentially effect your job. whats more, you keep taking the bait

What do you mean its an enmeshed situation?

I agree. It affected my whole day. I couldn't get any work done at all. I missed a deadline for a project and had to tell a client ill be late with something. And even worse after work we argued all night and she had homework and an assignment and she missed her assignment. Its messing up both of our lives.

I absolutely cant keep letting this happen. Its hurting me and its hurting her. I hate that it would have to be so strict of a boundary. I don't want to say no more talking at work completely. That's just so strict. Id like to be able to do work and talk to her when I can and when there is free time but if I talk to her but take too long to respond it becomes a huge issue. If I say no more talking it could just really make her feel like I don't care at all. If I text her every minute I can and always make sure I am talking to her I will really mess up at work and fall behind. No win situation. No matter what I do I am screwed.
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2016, 12:23:06 PM »

first and foremost, you have to do what you have to do. her feeling like you dont care at all may be unavoidable, and shes already essentially accusing you of that in the first place, at the time. setting boundaries isnt always easy. and no, i dont recommend setting a rule, and telling her "no more talking at work". thats probably too much too soon.

to some extent though, it becomes a huge issue if you let it. if you take too long to respond and she blows up, let her. dont take the bait. dont try to soothe her, or argue with her. let it become normalized (it may get worse before it gets better) over time.

i think the key here is to slowly get to your goal: "to be able to do work and talk to her when i can and when there is free time". do that; no more, no less.

if she starts in with the questions, it might be best to say something like: "how about we discuss this when im home?"
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jrharvey
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2016, 01:45:27 PM »

Excerpt
i think the key here is to slowly get to your goal: "to be able to do work and talk to her when i can and when there is free time". do that; no more, no less.

Yeah. I went through and read the whole conversation over and over again last night. There was a lot more said after this talk I posted. Where I really lost it is when I felt punished. At one time she told me that she couldn't talk and kept saying have a good day. It really triggered me. It triggered that little part in my brain about fairness and how I couldn't handle being punished for something like that. It's like saying... .I'm mad you didn't pay attention so I'm going to punish you by not paying you attention. And it makes me lose it because I'm thinking this is my girlfriend. This is the person who is supposed to support me and be there for me and we should help make our lives better. But instead I feel like in standing alone with nobody while she points her finger at me in disgust saying how bad I am and how I deserve to be punished for what I did.

So that's what I'm feeling. How can I change that? How can I not let that feeling and anger take over my body. It seems the only way is to not care. If I care about her I get hurt because inevitability I will always be left alone and punished for my bad deeds. If I try to detach my feelings a little to protect myself she instantly notices and gets upset saying im not showing her I care enough. When I really really do care about her and try to show her as much as possible something happens, she gets upset and I am punished, left alone and threatened. Then my heart is completely broken to the point where I am lost.
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2016, 02:03:10 PM »

So that's what I'm feeling. How can I change that? How can I not let that feeling and anger take over my body.

self awareness is a great start and a catalyst for change. you say yourself you felt triggered and like she was punishing you. triggers, when we explore them, usually reveal something beneath the surface that we are uncomfortable with.

look at it this way:

in the recent past shed cut you off, and talk to another guy, and use it to make you jealous (to get your attention). she may not consciously realize it, and your attention is really the goal, but that could reasonably be called punishment.

in this conversation she said "i need a time out". is that punishment, or healthy, clear communication?

are you familiar with, and have you practiced wise mind? its a great tool for when we feel triggered, and responding vs reacting.

If I try to detach my feelings a little to protect myself she instantly notices and gets upset saying im not showing her I care enough. When I really really do care about her and try to show her as much as possible something happens, she gets upset and I am punished, left alone and threatened. Then my heart is completely broken to the point where I am lost.

this is part of the dysfunctional cycle and its tough to break. detaching your feelings a little is healthy in terms of lessening enmeshment, letting go of outcomes, and not taking things personally; its not the same as being emotionally distant, but thats how she will experience it. thats something you can anticipate. its something she will try to soothe by using what works, which means upping the ante and behaving in ways to get your attention. its what she knows. and its less about punishment than that, and more about the fact that it works. you bend over backwards, she pulls away even further, but at least she has your attention, which is the goal. to break the dysfunctional cycle youre going to have to change it. youre going to have to anticipate that she will up the ante, and maybe even try new ways of getting your attention. this is not to say "ignore her". it is to say "see it for what it is, dont get caught up in it." it is to say you have a choice between things staying the way they are and getting worse, and things getting worse before they get better.

edit: "behaving in ways to get your attention" and "maybe even try new ways of getting your attention" may involve both "good" and "bad" behaviors. remember positive reinforcement, and positively reinforce the good as opposed to reinforcing the bad.
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2016, 03:18:42 PM »

The way I get myself untriggered when he's triggered is to try on his shoes and see the situation thru his eyes... .if I can. Sometimes he makes zero sense. Other times, as irrational as he sounds, I can see where I've hit a panic button and quickly validate him, hopefully without JADEing.

In your gf's case, I can see her wheels turning -- wow, why is he reading and re-reading my text instead of answering the question? Is he thinking of leaving me? deciding if I'm worth it? Is that why he didn't text me his usual good morning? Omg. Why is this happening? And why is he repeating nothing is wrong? That must mean something is wrong!

IMO, 11:14 was the missed opportunity to shut this down. She was asking for simple reassurance: Are we ok? "Yes honey. Great talk last night. Sorry swamped at work right now. Look forward to seeing you tonight." Instead she got that you were pondering her text (see panic button pressed above), hence the 11:17 response asking once again are we ok? Too late. She's triggered. Now everything you say is seen thru that filter - she searches for 'facts' to rationalize her feelings---- no good morning text, you took too long to respond, who texts who first, you're ignoring her on purpose, you're lying about being in a meeting... .Validation is about turning the heat off before the pot starts to boil.

Maybe this will help you take it less personal. It was about her. Her perspective got skewed as she became overcome with emotions.
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2016, 01:12:38 AM »

Others have already pointed out where you went into JADEing a bit instead of validiating or being firm about ending the text chat.

One thing I'd like to point about about validation is that sincerity really matters a lot, and sincerity is often communicated non-verbally. Which isn't there in a text. If you can look her in the eye, hold her hand, or say things with some emotion showing you care, it goes over a lot better.

In general, I consider emotional conversations (like where one partner is insecure about the relationship!) to be ones that need full attention. Best to do in person. And not when you're half-distracted with your phone or driving. Or perhaps on the phone.

Could you have taken 10 minutes to call her voice after your meeting instead of trying to resolve this by text?

So that's what I'm feeling. How can I change that? How can I not let that feeling and anger take over my body.

You can't just turn your feelings off. Nobody can. They will change on their own time.

So if you are angry, you are angry. You can't make yourself NOT be angry.

You can be mindful, realize you are angry, realize that if you talk (or text) to her when you are angry you will say something unskillful and make things worse. So you can shut down the conversation or go away until you are less angry.

There were times when I practically ran out the door, trying not to shout or slam it with the parting words "If I stay any longer I will say something I'll regret." Sure she might have felt abandoned. Sure she could imagine lots of bad and hurtful reasons why I did this to her. But at least I wasn't actually doing anything more to make things worse!

Other times I got out of a situation a bit more gracefully than that... .but there is a point where getting out fast is more important than getting out gracefully!
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