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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: How to Discuss the Future with uBPD Husband  (Read 654 times)
westexy

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« on: August 24, 2016, 01:50:32 PM »

Hi there- My husband has been demonstrating BPD traits since his mother died three and a half years ago. I have tried everything I think, except working on myself which I am doing now. Beginning in March of this year, my husband's behavior became quite extreme and I told him (and have repeated twice this summer) that I will not work any further on our relationship as a couple until he takes steps to address his "mood issue" or "sickness" as he likes to call it. One night his behavior started to involve our son, and adhering to another boundary I set, I took my son and left. We returned after he calmed down but he was (and is) extremely angry with me for leaving that weekend.

I told him that I returned for our son's benefit - so that he could be in his own home - and with his Dad, but that my husband needed to keep his behavior under control so that our son could have a calm transition into the new school year. He has not been cruel to me in front of our son since that time but he has been in private to the point that his behavior was quite bizarre one night.

I went to see a family law attorney for advice and two days after that, my husband was diagnosed with gout. He had an attack after getting dehydrated and drinking a lot. Well, he decreased his drinking a bit to resolve the gout attack, but the frequency is inching back up.

Anyway, school is now in session. We have been living in separate bedrooms since the weekend that I left with my son and it's time to talk about how we're going to handle things. My goal is to find out where his head is at and what he wants. When he's drunk, he has been putting pressure on me to put up with his behavior and "be mature for the sake of our son". When he's sober, he's silent or in agreement that things can't go on this way but he is too fearful to get help for himself.

So before I decide how to proceed, I want to know what he wants - how he envisions things working for our family in the future. Am I stupid or crazy or both? I just want to get some insight into how he would like things to turn out. If he is adamant that we stay together but he won't get help, then I will file for divorce at some point in the future after getting all of my ducks in a row with the attorney. If he thinks that we should be apart, then I will seize that opportunity and work, hopefully with him, to come to an agreement. I suppose he could say that he will get help, but that is SUCH a long shot, I haven't given it too much thought. I think I would still feel that we need to live apart while he works on himself.

I honestly don't know the best way to broach this conversation. Does anyone have any suggestions? I want to keep it short, focusing on what he wants this time around. Is it ridiculous to even try to talk about it?

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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 02:40:41 PM »

I had started a thread that concerned "How to Begin the End" or something like that.  It ended up on the divorce / family law board.
I wonder if we are thinking the same thing.
It is tough to figure out.  On one hand, I'd like to ignore my problems and take the little bits of good in the relationship and carry on.  On the other hand, in my gut, I know it can't go on.  I'd love to go to a business meeting, with charts, and findings, and feedback, and most importantly with rational people and there discuss the future of our marriage.  But, I am sure that mention of the word divorce will cause a cosmic disturbance and all hope of rational thought will be dashed. 

Which leaves us missing valuable feedback from our partner, and makes us unilaterally responsible for the future.  Stay, and "play act" our part.  Or, force an adversarial divorce and be held responsible for destroying the marriage.
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 08:21:20 AM »

  I want to know what he wants - how he envisions things working for our family in the future.


Westexy,

I'm new to your story, but I'm confident this is a bad goal for you to have.

It's all about leadership.  You are the emotionally healthy one in the r/s and will have to lead. 

You have been demonstrating that by taking a stand.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   Keep that up.

Please stop trying to "figure out your hubby" or getting him to "explain how this will work"   He has no idea and may or may not be aware that he has no idea.

You seem to have a grasp of boundaries... .Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   Focus on improving that. 

Focus on self care. 

Focus on working on you (that's a 100% sure fired winner). 

Focus on helping your son take the next step in life.

Focus on creating a healthy family structure that your husband can choose to be a part of... .or not.  Part of working on yourself is to be ready to respect his choice

You are in the right place to learn.  We can't make decisions for you, but we can help you gain wisdom to make good decisions for your family.

FF

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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2016, 08:56:03 AM »

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) FF - thank you for pointing out the principle of leadership.  Of course the healthy one in a relationship should be making the decision!  That is, unless you have two healthy people.  (LOL)

I've been so stuck, for so long.  I think I have been slowly declining in my "care-taking" of my wife, waiting for her to see the light, and see the relief possible in separating.  Duh!  She's never going to see it! 

I'll ponder that message.  It sure makes self-care better.  Thanks!
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westexy

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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2016, 09:03:14 AM »

Thanks so much to both of you. Sam - I'm sorry you're in this situation too. It sucks plain and simple, but it can addressed. It doesn't have to just happen to us.

And FF - I can't tell you how much I appreciate the clear and concise direction. That is what I need in this hazy situation. I really want to know what his choice is, but you're right, I just need to tell him what's happening and he can choose to be part of it or not. Even though I'm sure it will hurt, I do think I'm ready to hear his answer. The hardest answer will be I want things to stay just as they are, but that is the likely scenario. I'm definitely going to reframe my discussion for tomorrow, and hopefully keep it short and sweet.
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2016, 10:51:20 AM »


I am more interested in people "understanding" why I give the direction... .than the precision of which they follow it.

I try to stay broad. 

There very well may be areas where you do leave things completely up to him and refuse to "rescue" or even to " help".

The critical thing for us is to develop wisdom to "see" through all the crazy making.  Also critical to develop "tools" to fix booboos.

In the process of gaining wisdom you WILL do the wrong thing.  It's not the end of the world.  For instance, I " took the bait" on Sunday night when I shouldn't have.  10 min later realized it, disengaged and didn't look back.

It was a learning point... .nothing more.  Even if pwBPD thinks it is end of world.

So... .back to original point.  For now you are the leader.  That is reality. 

Next learning point:. I am concerned about you " telling" your hubby things.  Much more interested in you " showing".

Less talk... .more clear action.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2016, 10:54:39 AM »

Can you start a new thread and lay out your goals for tomorrow's discussion?

Or perhaps keep it here since it is likely about the future. 

But let's be very specific about setting an agenda and plan for you.

FF

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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2016, 11:41:02 AM »


There is a lot of hope in all this information.  Some places to focus on to possibly change attitudes.


Hi there- My husband has been demonstrating BPD traits since his mother died three and a half years ago.

Very similar to my wife.  2009 our family experienced a big natural disaster.  None of us took it well.  Things are much, much better in our family.  I have hope for the future. 

There is likely a powerful dynamic at work here.  You husband acts out, you "react", he acts out... .and the cycle continues. 

1 person can "break" the cycle.  You are already seeing this some.  I hope you fully embrace this concept.


I have tried everything I think, except working on myself which I am doing now.

Huge payoff to doing this.  Especially if you focus "working on you" to understand the "role" that you play in your family.

Beginning in March of this year, my husband's behavior became quite extreme and I told him (and have repeated twice this summer) that I will not work any further on our relationship as a couple until he takes steps to address his "mood issue" or "sickness" as he likes to call it.

What has been said... .has been said.  Step into your husbands shoes for a bit.  What do you think he "heard"?  Likely he heard "I'm not going to work on the marriage anymore and that is your fault"

Big breath here... .how would you like it if your husband said that to you?

What is a "healthy" way to address an issue and put the ball in his court? Let's say he is in a "mood" and threatening you. 

you:  "I'm going to leave this conversation while there are threats between us... "

Stay big picture with me... .and then see how it ties into a short and to the point sentence.

It's about you and what you do (leave the conversation).

It's focused on the conversation (not the marriage)... .don't make it bigger than it needs to be.

You clearly identify why (a threat) while at the same time you are not blaming anyone.  You are taking ownership for your actions based on a threat and are leaving it up to him to decided to take responsibility or not. 

You end it by affirming that you are a couple  (us). 

Less is more...

Focus on heaping value onto him and the relationship.  "You deserve my best" our relationship is so important to me that it deserves "my best".  Don't ever suggest he isn't "giving his best".

One night his behavior started to involve our son, and adhering to another boundary I set, I took my son and left. We returned after he calmed down but he was (and is) extremely angry with me for leaving that weekend.

But he "heard you" loud and clear.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)


I told him that I returned for our son's benefit - so that he could be in his own home - and with his Dad, but that my husband needed to keep his behavior under control so that our son could have a calm transition into the new school year. He has not been cruel to me in front of our son since that time but he has been in private to the point that his behavior was quite bizarre one night.

This was ok... .and likely honest on your part.  Would have been better to just return and EXPLAIN less.  There was a behavior issue, it was handled, it's over and in the past.  Focus on the future.  He will connect the dots that bad behavior equals them gone.  Don't connect those for him.


I went to see a family law attorney for advice and two days after that, my husband was diagnosed with gout. He had an attack after getting dehydrated and drinking a lot. Well, he decreased his drinking a bit to resolve the gout attack, but the frequency is inching back up.

Drinking problems can be hard.   Does his Dr know about his drinking?

When he's drunk, he has been putting pressure on me to put up with his behavior and "be mature for the sake of our son". When he's sober, he's silent or in agreement that things can't go on this way but he is too fearful to get help for himself.

Go back to "the best" concept.  Limit conversation with him when he is drinking.  Don't blame him... he will figure out choices.

"This conversation is important to me, I'll return to it with you when alcohol is not present." 


 getting all of my ducks in a row with the attorney.

Definitely get all your ducks in a row.  You will be much more confident in how you approach the r/s.  Keep this secret.  Do NOT bring it up... .until it is time to act.


 
FF
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westexy

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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 12:02:17 PM »

Telling vs showing----

I guess I feel the need to give him polite notification of what's about to happen and why vs just doing it but I can't say why I feel obligated to do that.
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2016, 12:33:58 PM »

Telling vs showing----

I guess I feel the need to give him polite notification of what's about to happen and why vs just doing it but I can't say why I feel obligated to do that.

What is about to happen?  Be clear on that first... .here... .and we can guide you about the propriety of notification.

Many times "notifying" a pwBPD is like waving a red cape in front of a bull.  It has the opposite of the intended effect.

FF
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westexy

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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2016, 12:47:54 PM »

FF - I just saw your last post and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. Even since reading your first advice, I was thinking that I need to postpone my conversation while I rethink things. I want to have a very clear, short script. I have to get back to work but I am going to reread your last post and digest all of it before I reply. I took no offense to anything that you wrote at all. Nothing ruffled my feathers but right now I am just so tired of constantly adjusting my behavior. I am feeling the need for a break.
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2016, 01:42:54 PM »

  I am feeling the need for a break.

Self care... .then take one.  Yes... .you should be considerate of how this might be perceived by others.  There is a healthy way to take a break.


Wisdom:  Much better to have things left unsaid... .than to say things and wish you hadn't.  So... .delaying while you sort out your side is generally a wise move. 

Sure... .there can be forgiveness... but it is likely that you will always remember things your hubby has said.  Guess what... .he remembers too.

And yes... .he twists those remembrances.  You can't prevent that, but you can make it much harder for him to twist.  He will have to be more deliberate about that.  That is his choice, ultimately, you don't worry about his choices.  You respect them.  You also respect yourself and take action that is healthy for you.   

You can do this! 

Back to the hope thing.  There was an event... .a "trauma"... .and things went bad in your r/s.  That is very different than someone that "has been this way" his entire life.

FF
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2016, 08:34:11 AM »

+1 as for "Giving Notification"
I know we want to follow some rules.  
I know that I want to have things happen in a normal manner.  But, remember with a BPD, even saying "thank you" can start a fight.  Seeking confirmation, agreement, and closure is a hopeless endeavor.  

Story time:
Things were bad for me for a long time.  Last year, at a really low point, I made omelets for my wife and brought her breakfast in bed.  I did my best just in a desire to do something nice for her.  I wasn't angling for anything.  Just did it because I thought she would like it (I make a good omelet and my wife really loves them).  So, with that, she stayed in the bedroom and brooded for a long time. If I recall she didn't even eat the breakfast.  She was bitter for a long time.  Eventually, days later in one of her explosions she told me that I only made the omelets because I was being nice - and not because I loved her!


The moment she said that I felt a confirmation in my heart that this relationship was fouled up.  It was a watershed moment for me in which I took a serious look at the possibility that maybe, just maybe, I was actually a good person and husband - in spite of the 17 years of degradation I had been through.  And maybe, just maybe, there was something wrong with my wife.  
I went on a journey of the soul after that and am still improving, but discovered so much.

Sorry for the long story, but, a lesson is that nothing is at it seems with a BPD.  
You may seek to follow normal rules of interactions, but, you do not know what it translates into when it reaches your BPD partner.  :)on't feel obligated to give polite notification - or even ask his opinion in some cases.
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2016, 09:45:20 AM »


Oh... .I love story time!   Especially about how we "found out" about BPD.

My turn:  After several years of counseling and "constantly moving the bar and blaming me" we go to  a new counselor soon after a move.  This counselor listened for a session or two and then my wife "asked a question" that was really a veiled speech.  I started to answer the question and my wife did the overtalk thing.  I protested... .my wife claimed she "never" got to talk.

Counselor stepped in:  "FF wife... .you spoke for 2-3 minutes (exact period of time... I don't remember exactly) without interruption , FF spoke for 10 seconds before YOU interrupted him.  I have a stopwatch and was paying attention.  In here we WIll follow rules... .

At some point my wife jumps up and "dances" around the room... .pointing at the counselor and accusing her of being on my side... .she literally wagged her finger at the counselor and said she was never coming back... .jerked open the door and "hopped" out.  Slamming the door behind her.

I stayed in room.  Took a deep breath and asked what I was facing here.  Counselor told me about stop walking on eggshells book.  My life started to change... .the veil had been lifted.

FF
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SamwizeGamgee
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 10:18:22 AM »

*how I found out:
... .after the eye-opening experience I described above... .
I was reading a church-based book on intimacy, seeking at that point to know whether or not I was a deranged sexual sinner (about how my wife portrayed me, or so it felt).  I found that I was probably in the middle range of normal for sexuality, wanting sex a few times a week, or month would have been ok too.  Coincidentally, I also found a section about divorce and unsolvable problems when a partner has something called a Borderline Personality.  I had to go and look that up. 
An interesting topic to say the least.

My apologies to the original post, the tangent took over... .
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2016, 12:13:22 PM »

Excerpt
I also found a section about divorce and unsolvable problems when a partner has something called a Borderline Personality.  I had to go and look that up. 

Hey Sam, Interesting that you found this reference to BPD in a "church-based" book, because it suggests that maybe there is a growing awareness about BPD and related "unsolvable problems"!

LJ
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2016, 02:11:16 PM »

I found out about BPD from a book "Behind the Masks: personality disorders in the church"

It was a book I had found in a stack of books someone left in one of the Sunday school rooms. I had it when I was married to my first wife but never read it. It sat on my book shelf. My BPD wife found it maybe fall of 2012 and was reading through it. She lost interest in it and I picked it up and came across the chapter on Borderline personality and was like whoa! my eyes were opened.
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2016, 05:35:51 PM »

*

My apologies to the original post, the tangent took over... .

Hehe... .we are all going to blame SamwizeGamgee... .  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Certainly none of us here have learned to take responsibility for our own thread hijacks... !


FF
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