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Author Topic: Not Again  (Read 357 times)
townhouse
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« on: August 26, 2016, 04:29:13 AM »

I can't believe I am here asking for help to figure out what to do again.
Why do we continue to put ourselves through all this. Anyway short version of a very long story. Been with my BPD husband for 15 years, although only married for 5 months. Last year things came to a horrible state with us and he did actually hit me. Mainly because of the alcohol and stress of building a new home.

He hasn't had one drink in the 12 months, undertook alcohol counselling and did a course on behaviour change. He was obviously truly sorry for what had happened. We spent a few happy months recovering from what had happened and he said let's get married because I want you to know I am committed to you. That was at the end of March. - April, May were fine. Then June and he turned inward again. Spent everyday in his workshop constructing amplifiers.

Like everyone else here, I can feel when the emotional climate has changed. His face changes, he acts polite but distant. Sometimes we have a laugh and share thoughts about things, but on the whole emotional and physical shut down.

So today over my reluctance to go ahead with my knee operation (it's not that bad ... .I think it will be OK for another year, but I do limp ) ... .all his dissatisfaction comes spewing out. He's thinking that sadly he doesn't think a relationship any relationship is for him and he's not sure if we should split up ... .again... .we split 4 years ago for 6 months, really he kicked me out, and then he initiated our relationship again.

What has really thrown me is that he mentioned that he didn't feel I was being authentic that I was "appeasing" him. Well yes, I have been validating as much as possible and now it comes back to bite me. I didn't know quite what to say to this. He has kind of figured out what I do to keep the peace. But of course he doesn't like it if I am sassy either. I try to be just me... .but with a  nonconflict filter.

I managed to get across to him how hurt I am that his commitment to our relationship seems to have only lasted a few months. To this he retaliated angrily that I am not committed to him because I haven't had my knee op. ? In other words he tried to make me feel bad because I made him feel bad. He couldn't answer about the change of thoughts. I get it ... .this is BPD. But how do I progress if validation and I do it well, is seen as appeasement.

He is clever and well educated... .can spot a phony a mile off. He also doesn't speak to anyone accept me. Not his brothers, his daughters, nor any old friends. I am it. He even mentioned today, that if there was a monastery around he has thought that he would join.  As if! He wouldn't last three days having to deal with other men's egos and personalities.

Thanks for reading.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2016, 06:19:32 AM »

My first reaction to his "reason"- you haven't had the knee operation- is to ignore it. My H has painted me black, been moody and withdrawn. My impulse has been to find out the reason and to want to fix it- to restore harmony in the relationship. When I did ask him what was wrong, he would give me a "reason"- one that I would take to heart. It was often something I didn't do that he interpreted as being about him- in a rejecting way. " you didn't buy my favorite item at the store" ( you don't love me) ( the real reason: they were out of them at the moment). "You didn't act interested in sex last night" ( the real reason, I was tired ) " you are more interested in talking to your friend than me". ( real reason: old friend I haven't heard from in years called, I was excited to hear from her).

I could list many "reasons" but the common thread for these dark moods was that I did something that had nothing to do with him, but in his mind, he decided that it was a form of rejection. I used to JADE - to try to fix this, but it went nowhere except in a circular argument. I can not control what he chooses to think about something.

As uncomfortable as these situations were- I learned through T and co-dependency groups- to leave him to deal with his feelings and to not ask why- because the reason was the feeling he had in the moment- and it changed, but at the bottom of it was that he chose to make something out of it that wasn't true at the time. We were able to talk about this in MC and for me in co-dependency groups. I had to learn to be OK with him feeling whatever he is feeling at the moment- and not to try to fix the feelings.

Often when someone is dyeregulating, they tend to say whatever comes to mind in the moment. Also, with black and white thinking - it can be the extremes. Feeling bad about the relationship could come out as " I don't want this relationship". The feelings tend to be in the moment. Yes, it is hurtful to hear them- but I think most people have felt this in the heat of the moment, but know it is just momentary anger/frustration, not a fact. But if feelings are fact, then they can seem so real in the moment. Dysregulating is also a way of getting rid of bad feelings, and often, just like a kid with a stomach ache who throws up and feels better afterwards, they can feel better. The problem is, we don't feel better unless we learn to see them as they are: a way of getting rid of bad feelings in the moment.

It's great that your H stopped drinking. However, at the heart of any addiction is the use of the addiction to escape bad feelings. Some people who have gone through AA end up in the co-dependency or ACA groups to deal with the reasons they drank. People can stop drinking, but then are left to deal with the underlying reasons they drank in the first place. People with BPD can use alcohol to do deal with their feelings. Now, your H is not drinking, but the feelings are still there- and he is dealing with them in the way he knows how. If being distant and sulky is how he does that, it sounds healthier than drinking.
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patientandclear
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2016, 08:18:28 AM »

If your description of what's going on here is accurate NW (and townhouse, I just went through my person wBPD saying similar things after a period of seeming effort and commitment--I really relate) ... .What does that mean for the partner? Just wait this out? When the person is saying they don't want the r/ship, how is that feeling any less "true" than the feelings of relative contentment at the other times? How do we get to pick and choose the feelings of our partners to take seriously and the feelings to ignore/psychologize?
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2016, 08:54:22 AM »

I think, by their actions and also their emotional state. All of us, when we are angry, lose our sense of reasoning momentarily. It is biological. When angry, our fight or flight reflexes are active and the hormones/chemicals flood our thinking and system. If a bear were to appear, you wouldn't be using all of your thinking. Your body would focus on running like crazy. Then, when you were safe, you would calm down.

I see the dysregulations as being similar. They are thinking/behaving in the moment as if they are under attack and being flooded with feelings. I used to try to JADE at these times, but realized that the ability to reason isn't intact at that time.

When calm -one is able to use all of one's thinking and reasoning. I even think there is a sense of shame for the dysregulation, but an apology for that is sometimes so shame triggering it isn't possible. I call this the dry erase- like those etch a sketch toys or boards, where one can wipe things off as if they didn't happen.

However, since when someone ( and this is all of us) is calm, and is using all of their reasoning, I believe what is said and done at that time is more reflective of how they are thinking.

Boundaries still apply here though- as well as frequency of dysregulations. It is all one person. Someone can dysregulate on occasion, and be overall not abusive or violent. Another person may be very frequently dysregulated, abusive, violent.  What you do is who you are, and one should not tolerate abuse. But a person who is generally wanting to be in a relationship, and who has the occasional verbal outburst or angry sulking may just be dealing with their feelings in this way. We have to use our own judgement as well as boundaries to decide what we want to do about this.
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patientandclear
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2016, 08:57:23 AM »

Thanks for that great answer.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 01:33:31 PM »

Thanks, I have struggled in the past with some mean things my H has said to me. Then later, he is affectionate and acts as if he didn't say them. I have also worked on being less reactive and triggered by them.

I saw this in the extreme with my parents. In one moment, my mother would be talking about her divorce plans, then the next day, she and my father would be just fine. They stayed married. There must have been more to this than what I saw as a kid. Likewise, in one moment, I would think my mother hated me. But over the years, I think she does love me. In her ideal image, she is a great mother. Sadly, she was unable to be that mother. I can sometimes hear regret from her about this.

I had to accept that both sides of my H, and of my mother, are parts of them, but I think, who they are, when calm is truer to who they are.

The other idea is that to townhouse- if someone who depended on alcohol to manage their uncomfortable feelings stops drinking, then, they are still left with the feelings and the need to learn/have an emotionally healthier way to manage them. This can require a longer course of therapy, 12 steps or other recovery program even after becoming sober from alcohol.
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townhouse
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 03:48:08 PM »

Commiserations  to you patientandclear, these are horrible times to be trying to deal with. Not Wendy thanks for your clear responses. It shines through that you have done a lot of work on yourself and as a couple and a daughter. You have made me think about his coming off his dependence on alcohol. 

Can we think about how validation as a tool is being seen as appeasement.  Since reading and applying the tools, I thought there was improvement and not so much dysreg, but it seems his discontent has just been simmering along underneath. I think these were not only words ( about not wanting to be in any relationship ) uttered in the heat of the dysreg, but were what he constantly thinks about day in day out when he's alone.

He quite cleverly pointed out "what's in it for you" meaning me. Although he has said this before, this time it has registered and I am probably for the first time questioning "what is in it for me" In the past , I have always thought that what's in it for me is that I get to be with the person I love. But something shifted yesterday, probably because we only said our marriage vows 5 months ago and yet he scoffed at them, saying that was how he felt at the time and really didn't want to be reminded of that episode. I mean as patient and clear mentioned... .what thoughts do we need to take seriously.

I did manage to say, perhaps this was wrong but I am beyond caring, that in future could he not tell me his thoughts about not wanting to be in a relationship, and that he should next time,  just leave. He was huffy about this, saying" so you don't want an authentic relationship. I can't express myself to you"... .I just feel I can't take this hearing on and on about him not being able to be in any relationship. If he wants out, then go.

I think I am on my last time of this and if and when this happens again my boundary with myself is that the next time will be the last and I will end it.

At the end of the night he did come into where I was, held out his hand, handshake like and said "how are you now?"  I replied "alright... .just" He then said " Well I haven't left yet" . I guess this was an apology of sorts, and perhaps I should just accept Not Wendies explanation in terms of a 5 year old vomitting up after a two month stomach ache. He doesn't even remember that I had to pack up and leave 4 years ago. Still it's true... .he hasn't left yet. ... but what sort of relationship is this for me, knowing I'm with someone who doesn't want to admit that they want to be together. It is very hard.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2016, 05:40:42 AM »

Validation: It's hard to know how someone else thinks, and yes, it is possible that saying validating things over time can appear to be patronizing/appeasing. However, I am not sure if your validation efforts are the cause of your H's simmering under the surface. It could be that he does that, and looks at you as the blame for that.

My H did this, and then would blow up at what seems like a slight provocation, or not even one, but he made something out of it. Yet what I attribute the bigger change for me was not only that I became more validating, but that I became less co-dependent- less reactive to his moods and feeling, and to what he said. I also often heard him say " I can't talk to you" because I would get upset at the things he said to me. But since I have become less reactive, tried less to tune in to his feelings- but still maintaining a calm presence, there seems to be less of the simmering- or possibly less of the boiling over. It's hard to tell, since I leave his inner feelings to him. I figured, if he wanted to tell me how he was feeling- it was his business to tell me.

Becoming less reactive, not taking what is said too personally, is a first step. What to do about it is individual. I understand that it is not conducive to a good relationship to have your partner say he doesn't want to be in one. I also agree that if someone doesn't want to be with me, then I personally would rather they not be. Being that this is the staying board, that choice isn't discussed in this context. Neither of us chose to leave. But that choice is individual and each of us makes it with the circumstances we have.

Choosing to stay didn't include choosing to tolerate the same patterns though. People can say what they want, but I don't have to respond or be present for it. I pretty much hit bottom with the dysregulations. When they started, I either stopped engaging in the conversation or left the room. If someone doesn't want to be in a relationship, then that is their responsibility to take steps to change. I don't have to fix this for them. Your H's responding with " you don't want to be in an authentic relationship" is shifting the blame on to you, or maybe a projection. I don't personally see the problem with saying " I hear you don't want to be in a relationship- what do you wish to do? ". It leaves the responsibility of sorting out his feelings to him. But continuing to discuss it in the moment as you described, may be one of those circular arguments where anything you say gets thrown back. Another approach may be to say " I hear that you are not happy with the relationship and this upsets me. Can we discuss this later when I feel calmer about it?" and then just let the conversation drop. If he persists on saying things to you- in a dysregulated state, then just remove yourself. The boundary being: I am not in a place where I can discuss something this serious. Making this about you, not him, helps diffuse the situation.

Not taking things personally doesn't mean ignoring what is said to you. It can help to not feel so reactive to them. There are choices the two of you can make. When calmer, ask if he wants to go to MC, or to take steps to not be in a relationship. It's his concern, and you can ask what he wants to do about it. I think natural consequences are a part of this- if he is going to say he wants to not be in a relationship, then yes, you will ask him what he wants to do about this. On our part, I think it is important to not return the statement with a threat to leave. Making any threat, and not following through, makes our boundaries and words meaningless. But sitting calmly, and asking him what he wants to do- and not reacting emotionally- might open a door to him communicating his feelings.
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townhouse
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2016, 02:43:59 PM »




Thank you so much NW for taking the time to write that reply.  It helped. The way you have learnt what is best for you as a couple has had it's rewards for both of you. I guess I can try a bit harder and a bit longer to try to find some happiness in this relationship. I am feeling pretty low at the moment because I Have been trying over the years to step back my reactions to his moods, dysregs and his general overwhelming negativism.

 I think what I am bad at is walking away from the insults. When he started at me the other day about my knee, it was a personal attack yet there was also only his irrational feelings involved. I can and do walk 6 miles with my walking group... .yet he says I can't walk with him. When I ask him if he wants to walk to the village for coffee he usually says he's too busy. The point is that I stayed in the room and listened to the insults and yes tried to explain that my knee wasn't as bad as he was making out. I Jaded. ... .and of course it just got worse and I was suckered in to the circular argument.

Then when he starts on his ideas of not being able to be in any relationship, he goes into big speeches about how ridiculous I am to want or expect the security of knowing that I will still be living in the same place 6 months ahead or next year. He dwells on how insecure the whole world is at the moment ( he reads about world wide politics all the time, as do I ) and also adds that our very place in the universe, our travel around the sun is so precarious, that we could be wiped out at any moment. I am thinking these thoughts are bordering on the delusional. I feel he needs some medication,  but he won't.

Interestingly, as I write, and I am very grateful to have this forum to be able to do so... .anyway ... .as I write I can see that shining  through my words is that "it is all about him".  I simply must focus my feelings onto myself. Sadly, when I do this, at this present time, I see very little hope for the relationship.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2016, 07:15:40 PM »

 I used to get those "sermons" too. It seems my H could build a sophisticated argument - but the foundation was on a feeling - not a fact. I took his words to heart- really felt hurt and just burned out. But not taking it personally or being reactive- nor participating - lessened the pay off for this behavior. It used to scramble to try to fix whatever he thought was wrong - but that didn't work anymore when I didn't react. I didn't invalidate though - I just didn't have the same emotional response.

But everyone is different and makes decisions in their own circumstances. Some of my motivation was based on having small children and I felt I should try to work on things not just for me but for them. I don't know what I would have done if I were older and they were grown. People consider all kinds of factors in a relationship.

I do know that working on me led to to results I feel better off with. So yes- the self work- no matter what the decision at the time was - was worth it. You can start with you.
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