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Author Topic: I need help to know what is a normal relationship  (Read 506 times)
IsSheBpdHelp

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« on: August 28, 2016, 11:45:16 PM »

I am an early 40s male who has been married for 22 years with one kid in college and one still high school.  Our marriage was very rocky from the beginning.  While serving in the military, I met and married my wife after roughly eight months of knowing her.  Those eight months met the definition of infatuation (so much fun / passion).  The week after we married (eloped), I left for a 6-month deployment.  When I returned, she admitted to having a one-night stand with her ex.  Yes I was very upset, but she seemed sincere and I had spent the last 6 months dreaming about starting our lives together, so I decided to let it go and move forward.  The relationship early on was okay.  We were excited to be in a new area, and she began going to school.  Although we argued, I don't recall it being anything crazy.  I do recall we would get in big fights because she would always accuse me of checking a girl out (which I was not doing).  Within two years, she began going downhill mentally.  She was diagnosed with OCD (for her constant death thoughts) and began threatening suicide.  It got so bad that I was hardship discharged from the military prior the end of my commitment so I could look after her.  After that, we fought a lot (over stupid things), and she continued with her psych issues (or should I say mood swings).  I was thinking about ending our marriage because it just got so bad until she told me she was pregnant.  I decided to stay, and we continued.  After our first born, she said she now has something to live for and her depression dissipated.  

Fast forward -

About her:  She is extremely intelligent (gifted) and has accomplished a lot (2 graduate degrees) and is a hard worker and an outstanding, compassionate mother.  She takes care of herself and is very attractive.  All in all, I think she is amazing.  And as far as I know/believe, she has been faithful since that one incident.  She works from home and has no friends.  She complains women are too needy.  Her childhood was not good.  Her Mom is bi-bolar and was verbally and emotionally abusive (and still is).  Needless to say, she does not have a relationship with her Mom.  Her Dad is sweet but is completely controlled by her Mom, and so she is not close to him either.  Both her sisters are on medication for psych conditions (though I am not exactly sure for what).

Now about me (the honest truth) - I too take care of myself, I'm a very hard worker, and have provided very well for the family - we live very comfortably, and I think I'm a good person overall with a solid emotional base.  My childhood was ideal, and I am happy with my parents.  I have never cheated on her, and I never flirt (that's not who I am).  That's not to say that I am perfect.  I have lied about looking at porn several times throughout our marriage.  My porn use was off and on but never an addiction by any means (although she would argue otherwise) , But I had lied to her about it on several occasions breaking her trust.

Sorry - I know this is long, but please stay with me here.

Over the years, she has been extremely suspicious and jealous.  If we are out, and she notices a pretty women, she frequently will accuse me of disrespecting her - saying that I'm lusting over her.  We have had so many arguments over this.  It's to the point that I do not feel comfortable going out in public with her.  There is not a day that goes by without me telling her how beautiful she is.

The cycles.  For the longest time, I thought it was related to her menstrual cycle.  This week is a perfect example:  

  • Last Monday and Tuesday, we were getting along better than ever.  She was telling me how much she loves me, and the sex was great.  
  • Thursday night, she accuses me of checking out another Mom at my daughter's school's open house (not at all true).  
  • Friday morning, she greets me before I left for work to tell me that I would have a hard time finding a date because I am not Christian (I have no idea where that came from).  She apparently was festering all night long over the previous night.  Then later that afternoon, she sends me a text "Can't wait to spend time with you over the weekend".  I was guessing that was her way of apologizing.  My response was "Me too".  When I got home form work, I came up behind her to give her a hug (she was cooking), and she pushed me away.  She was pissed that I did not seem excited enough with my "Me too" response.  I told her that I was in the middle of performing an interview when I wrote that.  Before I can finish, she quickly moves onto something else I did wrong.  Before I can respond to that, again, we're onto something else.  So frustrating! Even worse, many of her gripes are about her perception of what I said (and not what I meant).  She will twist my words and repeat things completely out of context.  Example.  I said, "I do not like it when you treat me this way" has now been translated (forever) to, "you told me right to my face that you do not like me".  Before I can correct her, she has already moved on to the next false perception.
  • Before long, she will be acting like nothing happened, and she again loves me.  Trying to discuss it with her is like playing with matches next to a tinderbox.

So, over the past year, I have been writing everything down.  It didn't take long for me to realize that this cycle was happening far too often then a 28 day period.  Sometimes, every two weeks and others, we might go 4-5 weeks.  Thinking back, this has been the story of our entire marriage.  I tried to bring this up to her letting her know about what I observed.  That DID NOT GO well at all.  According to her, our marriage issues are all because of me.  So I switched to asking her to see a marriage counselor with me.  She refuses.

Speaking of being sensitive.  I've learned there are few off-limit topics with her (no matter how she is feeling).  I cannot talk about religion, parenting disagreements, sex, her relationship with her Mom, and of course her mental state.  And God forbid I defend anyone that she opposes.

So to be honest with you, I know this cycle of behavior is not normal.  But what I do not know is if maybe I am the cause of it.  She claims that I do not make her feel special (her examples are that I do not take her out to dinner or on vacations).  One reason I do not do this too often is because 9 out of 10 times she will get upset about something and ignore me for
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ArleighBurke
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 01:42:55 AM »

Oh man! This could have been written by me!

I'm not 100% sure my wife has BPD, but despite that - the advice and techniques on this site have helped me a lot!

Straight out - she seems to be motivated by emotion. So talking with her like a man is not going to work! Search and read this site for "validation". It's a conversation technique that allows her to feel heard, and for you to find out what she's really thinking.

It's your first step, and it'll be very helpful!

Also, have you read about the 5 love languages? Do you know what your wife's language is? And what do you do to talk it?
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2016, 05:13:28 AM »

  Welcome to the board.

Here is the criteria for BPD that might help you : https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder

I would say truthfully your wife sounds lovely, intelligent, and a great mom. Those don't come along everyday in this world, right now. So you are lucky in many ways, though I can see how those issues must be difficult and hard on you.

 I have been telling many on here if you can find out both your personality types, and love languages you will have a better way to interact. 90% of relationship problems are due to communication. If you could eliminate some of that, and look at some of the tools for validation that might help.

Another thought is the pattern you mention goes more along the lines of  PMS symptoms, including mood swings, occur during the last (luteal) phase of the menstrual cycle, which starts after ovulation — typically day 14 to 28 of a woman’s monthly cycle. Once menstruation starts, mood swings usually disappear. "You’ll know these emotional ups and downs are due to PMS if they start consistently a week to two weeks before your period and stop a day or two after menstruation starts,” says New York City gynecologist and fellow of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Carol Livoti, MD

One thing as a woman I thought I would mention is many women that are creative can be emotional and not BPD.

Many women want to be his one be his only. If you could make her feel that by validating, talking and trying to find her love language that might help a lot in the situation. Seems there is some hurt feelings there, and some issues that might need to be resolved. Is there anything in the past that has happened that made her lose trust by any chance? Even if nothing you did, something that has bothered her maybe?

Remember even married women in long term marriages or relationships want to feel loved and special. Not saying you aren't just sometimes the romance, little gifts and flirting die down a little as time goes on. Not that the love does just the honeymoon phase goes into a different love, friendship phase. Many mistake this as love gone, etc as not that high all the time. Actually this is the best kind of love.  

 Maybe a weekend getaway, marriage retreat or something fun for you both. Or perhaps just more special you cuddle time.

If she does have BPD, maybe making her feel special.  She might be going through a period in her life of some tough times, or low self esteem at moment that is reflecting in her behavior or worsening the  BPD if she has that. Also working at home is not letting her get out too much maybe? Perhaps a yoga class, or some hobby time if you could encourage that would give her something special to concentrate on.

The book the High Conflict Couple might be of some help, as well.  

As for the other issues if you can find a way to better  both your communication skills, FF might be of some help with this area. Then when she begins to feel safer, with you she might open up to these other topics.

Keep remembering the pluses of you both, as there seems to be many. Build upon your strengths, communication, foundation and love.

Good luck and hope you find some peace on your journey.
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waverider
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 07:28:14 AM »

 But what I do not know is if maybe I am the cause of it.  

Quick answer to a quick query.

You are the trigger for it. That is because she needs a trigger to release these emotions, if you were not there to provide the trigger something/someone else would.

For many of us passing the role of trigger onto something else is the first step on the path to lowering conflict. This reduces your role as a threat, and hence their defensiveness. Let her blow her stack at some absent third party

BPD is like a run away freight train, try to avoid two things. First dont climb about when it has a head of steam up (stay out of the drama its not going your way) and second dont stand on the track trying to stop it. It will run you over and keep going. Let it pass until it runs out of track (crisis) or fuel (energy). Pick up the pieces after
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Meili
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2016, 11:46:00 AM »

Welcome

In addition to the other comments and advice, I'd like to add that listening with empathy can go a long way in reducing the conflict before it starts. There are links to listening with empathy and not being invalidating in the sidebar on the right of this page.

For example, when she's upset because she thinks that you are looking at other women, is it possible that she's actually upset because she thinks that you don't find her attractive anymore? Or, that you're looking for someone to replace her? Or something along those lines?
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IsSheBpdHelp

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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 08:31:24 PM »

Meili - I will certainly check out the links.  As for your question, she tells me that she is offended because of what the other women might think.  I honestly think something else must have happened prior to me knowing her because she was always like this.

waverider - Any advice on passing the role of 'trigger' onto something else?

Lilyroze - Thank you for the response.  Concerning your PMS thought, I've kept track of both to confirm there is definitely no correlation. 

ArleighBurke - I'm curious to understand what your situation is.

She tells me that all women are like her.  To be honest, she was my first series relationship (we married young) and so I really don't know.  Being that you are  a women, would you agree?  I understand being upset from time to time, but I don't get the extremes - causing so much damage.  I feel like I'm dealing with another person when she gets like that.
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IsSheBpdHelp

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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 08:57:06 PM »

Concerning the link:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

"Invalidation is often very subtle - we don't even realize we are doing it. It can be as simple as negative body language, a look or not saying something when one would expect something to be said."

We have been in so many arguments over these subtle things like this.  Each time, I find myself on the defense trying to let her know that I do not feel the way she is accusing me of feeling.  Again, so frustrating.  After reading this article though, I can see if I was more validating, perhaps we would never go there.

For me, the real issue is I never see it coming.  I guess I do not recognize that she is needing validation.
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Meili
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 10:04:11 PM »

For me, the real issue is I never see it coming.  I guess I do not recognize that she is needing validation.

That's where listening with empathy comes into play. If you listen with empathy, not being invalidating becomes much easier.

The other mistake that people generally make is that they JADE. When you try to explain that you don't feel the way that she's accusing you of feeling and you get defensive, there's a real good chance that you didn't listen with empathy and started to JADE.

A good thing to remember is that for pwBPD feelings = fact. Regardless of how you are really feeling, she feels that you are are feeling a certain way and that becomes a fact to her (the word 'feel' appears far too often in that sentence!). There is no amount of JADE'ing that you can do that will change her version of the 'facts'. More importantly, when you do try to do that, you are telling her that she's wrong and invalidating her.
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waverider
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 03:08:29 AM »

  After reading this article though, I can see if I was more validating, perhaps we would never go there.



Wouldn't say never, but certainly less. More importantly you will realize why and make it easier to handle/accept and redirect/recover
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waverider
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2016, 03:19:44 AM »



waverider - Any advice on passing the role of 'trigger' onto something else?

 
Dont step into the firing line by using logic.

eg
Her: It makes me mad when X does ABC, X is an XXX
You:X is not at fault you shouldn't blame them.

Your logic might be right, but by using logic you directly invalidate her feelings and you are now in the firing line... "Oh, thats right you NEVER stand up for me blah blah... "

Instead let her express her anger, it may be a dysfunctional way of handling emotions, but its the only method she has. It will probably fizzle out and blow over without X is ever negatively affected.

You can't stop the dysfunctional emotional expression, but you dont need to give it targets. all too often we step in when they are just blowing hot air.

In this case X stays the trigger but the bullet is fired in the air, its all noise. If you allow yourself to be the trigger you are a clear and present target, it causes damage.
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IsSheBpdHelp

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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2016, 06:11:13 AM »

waverider, thanks for the excellent advice. 

When i think about it, she is her worst when she has any stress in her life when staying out of the line of fire is easier said than done!  Like I mentioned, any hint from her perspective that I have invalidated her starts the spiral downward.  It could be as little as too much pause in my response or a perceived gesture.  My character then gets attacked and I get defensive.  Then the whole things gets remembered as how I am NEVER there for her - which becomes more ammo for the next episode.  It's all a bit crazy making... .

Based on what you're saying though, during these stressful times, she is feeling a lot of emotion is not equipped to deal with it in a healthy way.  She then attaches these emotions to a perceived negative/invalidating event - which causes her to believe her false perception - as if they are 100% true.  The problem is she then remembers EVERYTHING.  That false perception will eventually be launched at me again sooner or later - causing the cycle to begin.

Although this kind of makes sense to me, I just do not understand how I should handle the personal attacks.

Meili, thanks for mentioning JADE. It's the personal attacks that are the hardest to deal with.
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2016, 07:46:13 AM »

 IsSheBpdHelp,

Welcome  

Can I take a guess that you were Navy guy?  I'm retired Naval Aviator... .did a few of those 6 months deployments.  

First... .I want to assure you that you have found the right place to guide you on your journey of learning more about what is going on in your relationship.  You can find lots of resources on the web about BPD, but many of them (in my opinion) sound very blaming toward the pwBPD and don't provide a clear pathway of how YOU can make things better in your relationship (r/s is how you will see it on these boards)

Your care and compassion for your wife and relationship comes through loud and clear.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   Use that as motivation to learn a new way of doing things.  Basically... .think of this as getting sent to DLI (defense language institute) to learn a foreign language.  It will be frustrating at first, but given time and effort, it will start to make more sense.


Likely you will find the next few weeks like drinking from a fire hose.  I would encourage you to listen and ask a lot of questions vice rushing to put new techniques to work.  It is critical that you have an understanding of why you are attempting a technique (tool).  In all likelihood there will be "pushback" from your pwBPD because it will seem very different to her.  

Your military training will be valuable to you in this effort.  Look to that experience to be steadfast when things seem dark and the tools appear to be not working.  Appear is critical... .many times you know they are working because the pwBPD "tries" to get you back into old habits.

There is so much to learn, it is important to prioritize.   Do some thinking about places where there are repetitive arguments.  List out known "triggers".  

It's not so much that we "avoid" those, but we want to make sure that YOU have the skills and knowledge to respond vice react in those situations and that your response is "emotionally healthy".  After giving a healthy response, it will be time for you to focus on other things and let your wife wrestle with her "response" or "reaction".  

It sounds like you are like I was and felt somewhat responsible for your wife's feelings and "view" of you.  I would hope we can channel this desire into being deliberate about taking action to demonstrate, in an emotionally healthy way, that your wife is important to you and then let her sort out what she believes without your interference.

As you have figured out, it's tough to hear your wife claim that you are in love with some other mom.  I guarantee you that "defending" or arguing with her about your emotions is not emotionally healthy.  There can be several other ways of dealing with this and your "tactics" WILL shift over time as you gain wisdom about BPD traits and behaviors.

I noticed one place you said "before I can correct her" she moved on to something else.  How has "correcting her" worked out, when you can get to it?

There is hope in your situation.  I also want to let you know that you have 22 years of habits and expectations built into your r/s (relationship).  It will seem odd to you and to her when you start changing them.

What do you think your wife would have done if... .

her "blah blah blah... .you didn't respond to my text right... .blah blah blah''

you "Oh my... .are you feeling scared about our relationship?  I'm home now and I'm here for you.  I'll be back in just a few minutes after I freshen up... .and if you want... .I'd love to share my feelings about you... ."  (perhaps a swat on the butt... .on sneak a kiss on the cheek... .something affectionate... .but not over the top)

Exit the room... .use bathroom... .splash water on your face... .take deep breath... .remember your new BPD lessons and head back in.

Note:  Even if she demands "you come back here"... .go use the restroom... take a break and "slow it down".

Last... .for now.  Look at my proposed wording.  The exact words aren't what is important, it is what you are communicating.   1.  You are giving her a chance to identify her emotion.  2.  You state clearly (but not over top) that you are there for her.  3.  You are being deliberate about "slowing things down" for both of you.  4.  You are being emotionally available and also putting the idea in the air (vice shoving it down her throat) that you may have different emotions that she believes you do.

You clearly place the ball in her court and merrily go on living your life.  She may "toss it back to you"... .don't catch it.  Let her make choices about what to do with her discomfort.

Welcome to the family... .are you ready to begin your journey?

FF


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Meili
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2016, 09:39:47 AM »

Although this kind of makes sense to me, I just do not understand how I should handle the personal attacks.

Meili, thanks for mentioning JADE. It's the personal attacks that are the hardest to deal with.

It may help to remember that the personal attacks are not actually about you. pwBPD attack those that they are intimate with as a way of not feeling their own shame and fears. Think of it as a more intense version of when someone is late and stuck behind a bad driver and they yell at the bad driver. It is an outward projection of the stress that they are feeling.
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2016, 10:12:37 AM »

It's the personal attacks that are the hardest to deal with.

People with BPD can be extraordinarily perceptive, intuiting shifts in feelings even before you are even aware of your own moods yourself. In an escalation, she feels your mood being aroused and continues to press on the gas because if your mood matches hers, it feeds her need for validation.

She goes about this the wrong way, hurting you in the process, it's probably all she knows how to do in intimate relationships. She's irritated in that moment and if you aren't, it means she is inadequate/doing it wrong, which she tries desperately to avoid feeling. If you're both irritated, then she's at least equal in footing.

So without much awareness of any of this, she bites your head off and then feels relief, transferring the emotion and experiencing negative validation.

An important part of this dynamic is to forgive yourself for being human. Try to notice what hurts, and ask yourself why. Come to peace with qualities that seem to hurt most. The kinder you are toward yourself, the less these personal attacks can stick.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

She is on an emotional rollercoaster. It works better if you learn how to stay on the ground, and not get on the coaster with her.

We can help you work on techniques to make that possible.

In BPD relationships, much is counter-intuitive so it takes some unlearning and relearning to figure out how to relate.



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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 12:43:17 PM »

I am so thankful for you guys taking the time to respond with such wisdom.  I cannot tell you how many years I have struggled trying to understand these crazy exchanges we have.  Over the past year, I have been contemplating whether it was something I wanted to continue - thinking it might be better to just be on my own (and have some peace).

Several months back I learned about BPD and mistakenly brought it up to her.  Bad idea.  Within 2 minutes, she had covered all of the reasons why I was an absolute Narcissist - describing single one-off events from our 22 years of marriage that qualified me.  Forget defending myself (which I now understand was fruitless).  I'm guessing by now she has done the research on her own and perhaps knows - but then again, maybe not.  It's just so frustrating that she will not address this problem.  I also think this is why she will not seek out help from a professional.  I believe she is afraid of the diagnosis.

Also, the fact that she can control herself in front of others (granted they are not close to her), means she should be able to control herself in front of me.  I just do not understand.  To her, I deserve it.

Although I am not 100% sure she is BPD (she is not at all impulsive nor does she cause self harm), but she absolutely matches the other qualifies to the T.  For me though, the label does not matter.  Finding this site is a Godsend in my mind.  Being married to someone who has BPD tendencies is SO lonely.  I do not share our marriage issues with anyone for two reasons:  One is she would leave if she found out (writing on this forum is already risky) and the second is that I'm not sure anyone would believe me (outside of her immediate family).  She seems to be able to control herself when she is in front of others - which tells me she has some control over her emotions - which is also upsetting.  Also, before I know it, she will be showering me with love and I will have moved on from the incident.  But finding this forum and so many others who can relate and offer such positive, helpful, non-judgmental feedback is simply AMAZING!

Does it ever get better, or is this something I have to learn to carefully forever navigate, understand, and accept if I want her in my life?  She really is an amazing person who can be SO loving.  Thanks again for the all of the amazing input!
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2016, 01:05:38 PM »



Also, the fact that she can control herself in front of others (granted they are not close to her), means she should be able to control herself in front of me.  I just do not understand.  To her, I deserve it.


This is who she wants to be, but it is not natural. It is like an actor on stage who admires the character they are playing. However, it is not them, so it is still a job of work and can be exhausting.

Off stage they become their natural self, which they know does not match their "ideal" self, reinforcing their own feelings of inadequacy and bitterness. They too think why can't they be that ideal persona all the time, and as you are the common factor for when they are not, you must be to blame.

They are also jealous of others they see who appear closer to their idea of "ideal", even if those others are "working it" too. So they see those as a threat and cut them down.

Another analogy is that to the world she is in "interviewee mode" we have all been there for short bursts and it is stressful. Imagine living large parts of your life like that
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2016, 01:29:42 PM »

whether it was something I wanted to continue -  

Great question!   Very wise for asking and for seeking out information to make that decision.

Answering a question with a question:  Why not continue to relationship with your wife, but decide to no longer participate in crazymaking (or whatever label you want to put on it)?

It can get better.  "It" being  the relationship.

100% guarantee that YOU can get better, if you set your mind to it and are diligent about consistently using tools we teach here.  

Last big picture question.  If there are two people in the relationship, and one of those people becomes more emotionally healthy, what is the likely outcome for the relationship?  

Think about it... .find hope in your answers.

FF

 



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livednlearned
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2016, 01:34:32 PM »

Does it ever get better, or is this something I have to learn to carefully forever navigate, understand, and accept if I want her in my life?  She really is an amazing person who can be SO loving.  

I understand the question.

Learning to put your needs and preferences first is often the hardest part. It can make you feel guilty, and chances are, you may already be prone to guilt. Even so, figure out why it feels guilty to take care of yourself.

This is critical. Because taking care of yourself is healthy and normal. In a regular relationship it would be give and take. In a BPD relationship, you have to take care of you and her. Meanwhile, she is likely to try and sabotage efforts to take care of you and her. Her illness makes it hard to do otherwise.

Taking care of yourself can mean taking lots of small breaks to limit too much down time together. Or, it can mean spending 3 out of 7 nights outside the house pursuing hobbies or interests.

Seeing a therapist.  Bullet: completed (click to insert in post)

Reading the lessons to the right.  Bullet: completed (click to insert in post)

You can create a validating environment, learn what that means in practice, how to use communication skills to do so, and then evaluate how things are, see how well she responds.
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Breathe.
ArleighBurke
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2016, 06:34:57 PM »

    Does it ever get better, or is this something I have to learn to carefully forever navigate, understand, and accept if I want her in my life?  She really is an amazing person who can be SO loving. 
    It get's better, but perhaps not as you think... .
    • If you are able to validate her, and allow her to express what she feels in a productive way, then it may reduce the strength of the outbursts.
    • If you are able to truely know that YOU are not the cause of her pain, and truely be able to let her comments wash over you with no effect, then you will feel better.
    • If you can look after yourself and have the strength to know that you are doing the right things despite her attempts to constantly try to pull you down, then you will feel better.
    • There will still be days where she loses it and nothing you do makes any difference. If you can separate yourself from her, allow her to be disregulated, know that it's not your fault, know that you've done all you can, and be at peace with yourself, then you will feel better.

    So yes - it gets better!
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    Woods77
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    « Reply #19 on: September 13, 2016, 08:01:23 PM »

    Normal relationships seem hard to find but they should be an enhancement of your life and mutual to both of you. If it's not then its dysfunctional I guess.

    I read what you wrote and have been through similar and I'm now deattached. Have you ever asked yourself what do you want? Do you focus on your needs?

    If you want to improve things you need boundaries, therapy for her BPD and to read up about BPD yourself.

    If also suggest you stop telling her she's beautiful every single day, it's too much, it's so frequent it's saturated and she won't believe it. If possible anyway.

    Also a bit of a shocker but we non BPD partners, why do we stay in such terrible times? We do have problems and I think many BPD partners are co-dependant. It might help to read about co-dependency and see if you feel you might be and how to work on that. It's not exactly what you think, co dependants are often self sufficient for example.
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