Struggling to get past the past

[Jessica84]

Struggling to get past the past today - all the makeups/breakups, fights, accusations from the earlier years. Things are really good between us now, and have been for awhile, but after seeing his family in town this weekend it all came back. Felt like I was re-living it thru their eyes. How they must see me? A girl so wrong for him we broke up 999 times, or so weak she kept taking him back, or so stupid not to realize she deserves better? All the times he told them we were "done", or he wasn't "in love" to make me look like the pathetic lovelorn fool.

Normally I don't care what other people think, but I feel humiliated after 7 years of them witnessing our on/off relationship where they've only heard his side of the story. He told them of every fight, breakup and makeup, leaving out his part in it. They told him to "move on" so many times, they got sick of it.

So now they won't get too close to me because they see me as temporary. 2 of his brothers are getting married soon and he was vocal about us NOT getting married. I don't want to marry him anyway, but it's the outright rejection in front of everyone, like I'm not good enough. It's embarrassing.  They are nice to me but like they feel sorry for me. I hate that. They are also disparaging of him. Hate that too. Right in front of him they ask "how do you put up with him?" In a light way, but I can see it hurt his feelings. It was so awkward and uncomfortable.

I wish the past never happened. Sucks to ruminate like this. I'm trying to live in the present, but it's hard to get over our rocky past, back when I didn't know any better.

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[livednlearned]

Hi Jessica84,

Humiliation is a bad feeling, and it sounds like you had a big dose of it this weekend.

Do you think the parents are aware of your son's behaviors?

Might they exhibit some of these behaviors themselves?

A parent who asks you how you put up with their son... .that sounds like a very invalidating comment to make, managing to hurt you and your guy at the same time.

Maybe the push/pull type of  relationship is something that they themselves are familiar with, and perhaps even contribute to, in their own way, without even realizing it?

[Jessica84]

His brothers and wives seem very normal - close, loving family, but live out of town. No doubt they have tolerated a lot from him in the past, but they do love him. His mother, on the other hand, is extremely invalidating and compares him to his other brothers, especially her "favorite" son which even bothers the others.

It's just so shocking for me to hear a mother praise everyone BUT him. And so openly with "how do you put up with him?" or "why is he like this?" or "I don't know where I went wrong with him" --- even when he's doing nothing wrong. The worst was when he told her he was getting tired and she said "so now we all have to suffer?" This, as he's waiting on her hand and foot.

I have to give him credit. He was brewing inside but stayed pretty calm, trying to appear stable and not his usual loud-mouthed center of attention self. But it's like they kept waiting for him to do something outrageous. Almost disappointed that he didn't. Like he's the family clown or something? He didn't do anything bad, didn't even drink.

Even they can't see the progress he's made. Sad. I guess they will always see him as the hopeless headcase and me as the hopeless headcase's side dish. Don't know why that bothers me, but it does.

I just spent 5 days straight with him and he only one dysregulation (with his mom), which he managed very well. Even said to me later he was proud of himself for not unleashing on her. He did good. I need to find a way to let go of the past, even if they won't.

[livednlearned]

It's just so shocking for me to hear a mother praise everyone BUT him. And so openly with "how do you put up with him?" or "why is he like this?" or "I don't know where I went wrong with him" --- even when he's doing nothing wrong. The worst was when he told her he was getting tired and she said "so now we all have to suffer?" This, as he's waiting on her hand and foot.

Perhaps he is the scapegoat child, and the others receive golden child status. It can happen in families when a parent is narcissistic/BPD, where the siblings are sometimes pitted against each other.

I guess they will always see him as the hopeless headcase and me as the hopeless headcase's side dish. Don't know why that bothers me, but it does.

If they are narcissistic, they will need to feel adequate or superior, often at someone else's expense. Could it be that this is what you are feeling, your intuition may be sensing that they are perpetuating this dynamic while making it seem like you and your BF are to blame?

[Jessica84]

Thank you livednlearned. Hadn't thought of this dynamic. Narcissistic to a point, but I don't think clinical. They're relatively stable and have good relationships.

I feel bad for him for the way they treat him, as the oddball, the outcast. Like he has to perform. Maybe he's earned that.

It's also the way they treat me, with pity. He's convinced them that I've been a she-devil, other times I loved him more than he loved me, so I look like some gal he's strung along and settled for.

It's upsetting to know that every time he asked for their advice in the past about our r/s, they told him to find someone new. Like I'm disposable. And got discarded - a lot. Maybe they got sick of hearing about our bizarre breakups. Wish I didn't know what they said, but unfortunately he tells me everything. I don't see them often since they live out of town, so most of how they see me is based on his version. And most of it is long in our past. They don't see how stable we've been for the last few years. Feels like being punished for not knowing about BPD sooner.

[livednlearned]

Wish I didn't know what they said, but unfortunately he tells me everything. I don't see them often since they live out of town, so most of how they see me is based on his version.

It's possible he is providing you an accurate depiction. It is also possible that he is feeling things that he attributes to them. If you are a source of intense emotion, chances are he does not necessarily think in cognitively coherent ways. We do this too when we're emotionally aroused, tho to a less extent. Many people who struggle with BPD will remember an emotional event like a high water mark, and the facts tend to get bent toward the feelings, instead of the other way around.

In any case, it sounds like the family may be prone to triangulating. My family of origin does not have a clinically NPD person, though there are lots of drama triangles that destabilize the family. One person might align  with another to create closeness, teaming up against a perceived persecutor. Unfortunately, sometimes we are cast in that role.

Drama triangles tend to destabilize very easily. The closeness is not real intimacy so the triangle collapses and the most dysfunctional person typically works to establish himself or herself as the victim, pitting the others against themselves.

It's very exhausting. To deal with it is to learn how to step outside the drama triangle, and that involves depersonalizing and detaching emotionally. It can take practice, and learning to spot it when it's happening. 

[Jessica84]

Well maybe this is progress and he's trying to get himself out of the drama triangle? Only with limited ability. My God, is it possible they miss the old him? The high-drama guy who wreaked havoc at family functions?

They also used to perpetuate a man-whore persona for him. I only know because in the past, he forwarded me their emails, with a breakup note! They said some pretty vulgar things about him needing to find new women to "play" with and let me go, but put it in a way that breaking up with me was some kind of kindness to me. That whole "ladies man" they wanted him to be made him miserable, but he wanted to impress them. Is this triangulation? Maybe what I'm seeing in them isn't pity, but guilt?

Thank you for helping me work this out in my head. It's been bothering me more than it should.

[livednlearned]

Maybe this article on Karpmann's drama triangle will help explain it better: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[Notwendy]

Each person in family dynamics can play a role. If a member changes their role, or behavior, the family can scramble to pull the person back into position, as they are at a sense of balance with everyone in their role. Someone changing can make the rest of the family uncomfortable.

I can relate to the feelings of humiliation. My mother painted me black to her FOO, said all kinds of things about me that are not true. If I were to try to defend myself, it would sound like two very different stories- hers or mine and put them in the position to choose. For me, it feels futile to try, because she's been telling them stories about me to the point that they don't even know me. I feel uncomfortable around them. Like you, I don't really concern myself with what others think, but they are standoffish to me at family occasions, and that makes it awkward.

I will take you up on something you said- you don't want to marry him. This is the staying board, and you are committed to him at the moment, so I am not suggesting what to do. However, if you know that you don't want to marry him, that is something to consider for you- why is that?

I say this because in the long run, if someone wants to be married someday, a dating relationship can proceed to marriage. If one is dating exclusively, then one is not available to meet other potential partners. At some point in a dating relationship, each partner assess the situation- do I want to proceed to the next step? I don't know if you and your BF have discussed this. Perhaps neither of you are ready for marriage. But at one point you might be.

I think it comes down to your own wishes. Your BF is who he is, this is his behavior, this is his pattern and this is his family. It may be more about them than you. They may feel awkward about how to relate to you after so many break ups. But it isn't about them. If you and your BF's relationship is what you want, regardless, then it is what you want. However, if marriage is a question, then it is something to consider what you want for the long run as well.

[patientandclear]

I think it's also possible to take all this more at face value. It sounds like he's treated women badly before you and also treated you badly in the past as we've discussed. You have a lot of knowledge from here and otherwise that has allowed you to re-interpret the meaning behind certain behaviors such that it feels right to you to stay through some overt statements and actions that his family might legitimately and appropriately disapprove of. Unless you were to take them all deeply into your confidence, which it sounds like you aren't going to do, they and you may just have such radically different perspectives on whether he is a good guy to women or to you that there is going to be some dissonance. Would it be good form for them to lay off when you all meet up? Yes. But they may be trying in an awkward way to support you and be friendly and may feel guilty about what their family member does to women.

My ex BPD person is aware that others think he is terrible to women. He is, objectively, terrible to women. He makes promises he doesn't keep, he tells self-serving untrue stories of his past, he repeats patterns when he should know by now how they'll turn out. The people who think he's terrible to women are not wrong. It is of course also much more complicated than that. Both my perspective on it and theirs are valid and true, and it isn't against me somehow that people who know us both are fearful for me when I participate with someone who is notoriously destructive to women's mental and emotional health.

If your guy is changing that makes this tough to navigate. Sounds like he handled it very well in the immediate aftermath. Also sounds like it would have been great if someone in his family long ago had recognized that there were big hurts in play for him and that he has coping mechanisms at work that are making it hard for him to achieve closeness with others.

But that's run of the mill lack of awareness. Sounds like these people have a normal healthy morality and don't love how he's treated you in the past, and there need not be anything pathological about that. Why not just let them know "yeah, like most people, we're trying to work on things that haven't worked well in the past and doing our best." Acknowdging that there is a "there there" in their remarks but that you intend that that be in the past. Could your bf tolerate hearing that?

Also--it would hurt my feelings to hear "I don't want to marry her" or whatever he exactly said. Your "I don't want to get married either" ... .That resonates for me. I used to say that in a past r/ship as a defensive posture when my partner expressed that he didn't want to get married. In the same way I'd say I didn't really care about Valentine's Day ... .I don't need to get married. But having my long term partner say that he doesn't want to would be hurtful, so just wanted to affirm I think that piece should not get buried.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I agree that it is very hurtful to hear a long term partner say " I don't want to marry her". I don't know if this is true or something he said in the moment as a response.

I think the most important thing is to be true to yourself. Saying you don't want to marry him, but truly you do, it a betrayal of your own truth. However, if you truly don't want to marry him, then this is also something to consider.

I've been there with someone I dated in college. I was head over heels. Had he proposed, I would have said yes. But he was very vocal about not wanting to marry me. I think he was wise to be that honest, he was really too young for that level of commitment and not ready. Looking back, I realize I wasn't ready either, but the heart wants what it wants. I could logically understand the reality, and glad for the honesty, but it was hurtful regardless. We parted ways. I met my future  H after that.

Be true to yourself  

[Jessica84]

Thank you for all your comments and sharing your family backgrounds. It means a lot. 

IMO his family lacks serious boundaries and may have aided in some of his misogyny. My family may not be super-intimate, but I can't imagine discussing my sex life with my brother! Creepy.

My mother doesn't have a favorite either. She treats us differently, but equal. I don't have children so I won't pretend to know what it's like to be a mother. But it's hard for me to understand how a mother (ANY mother) could favor one child over the others (she has one room in her house covered wall to wall with pictures of only her golden child). It must hurt his other brothers too, but they've mostly accepted it and even joke about it. Also hard to understand how she could treat my bf (her least favorite) so badly when he's the one who lives here and takes care of her - she is elderly with many health problems. She's even tried to hook him up with other women in the past. Sick and twisted to me - like being with ONE woman disappointed her in a way. And his brothers too. Now that they are getting married, they've stopped pressuring him to be a playboy. Now they're pressuring him to settle down. Hence, the 'I'm never getting married again' statements.

We've discussed marriage before, and neither of us wants this. We're both gun-shy, divorced, and ironically, both of our ex-spouses turned out to be gay. Hard pill to swallow. What are the odds? I was married 12 years, he was married 10. All these years later, we're both still dazed by how we didn't know. We also both lost a lot financially in our divorces. So we share a similar commitment-phobia when it comes to marriage. I'm good with a long-term commitment otherwise. And he has (finally) admitted he prefers monogamy. He has also been reckless with money in the past (from gambling addiction) and is deep in debt. I would never want my assets co-mingled with his.

My main thing was him being so vocal about it. Instead of saying it was mutual, it looked like a one-sided rejection. But perhaps that was his ego or the mask he wears for them. Who knows. All I know is seeing them stirred up a lot of uneasy feelings for me. I saw him last night and realized how different he is now, softer, nicer. It was reassuring to know the past doesn't have to define our present.

[Jessica84]

One other thing... .his brother made a small issue about him inviting me to his upcoming wedding. He didn't know I was coming. He explained it was ok, but it was a small ceremony and they needed an accurate head count. Ok, I get that. My bf apologized repeatedly.

He assumed they knew he would be bringing me. Brother said she's great, love to have her, we'll make it work, we just never know if you're together or not. None of this was mentioned in front of me, but he told me later about their conversation.

It's this kind of reminder of our on/off past that got me. I brushed it off at first, then started overthinking it... .felt embarrassed... .offended... .worried it might make him re-visit our past and question our relationship again. Luckily, it hasn't.

In fairness to his family, we broke up a lot. Sometimes every few months. He let them know every single time. I admit I made a lot of mistakes back then. Once I learned about BPD and started using the tools here, things have improved dramatically. Haven't broken up or had a major fight in over 2 years. He's shared our vacation pictures with his family and mentions me all the time by phone... ."Jessica and I took mom to lunch today... .saw that movie with Jessica... .Jessica and I are planning a trip next month... .Jessica said to say hi... .etc"

So for his brother to say he wasn't sure if we were together sort of stumped me.

[Notwendy]

I have kids, and I can not imagine favoring one over the other. However, each one is different. Kids come into this world with their own temperament so some temperaments are more compatible than others but the job of the parent is to do what is best for each individual child.

You can then imagine that a dysfunctional parent would not carry out this task well. Dysfunctional families often have a golden child, and a scapegoat. Neither role is good for the child. The function of the scapegoat is to shift the focus of the family members on to the scapegoat so they don't have to acknowledge their own issues. They can have poor boundaries between people. If someone in the family is old enough to have a sex life, they should also be able to keep that private. Families can be enmeshed.

Your BF's family has some issues. However, if you see change and growth in him, then that is all that matters. His family may need to see him as the scapegoat- it could make them feel better. Maybe their view isn't valid.

Seeing this in my mother's FOO made me feel empathy toward her. Her brother is the golden child. She was clearly the scapegoat. I think it was tough to be in her role in the family.

[Jessica84]

That's interesting, NotWendy. Thank you so much for giving your perspective. My mother says the same about my brother and I. She said it was like shifting gears - one child needs her this way, another that way. And thank you for helping me understand his family dynamics. I do hope they can learn to "cope" with this nicer, calmer, more rational family member. Poor things.   

I wish they could be happy for him. He's made such progress. They should want this for him. He was living a life of chronic anger, suicidal depression, loneliness, self-inflicting harm. Now he's trying to be a "better man" (his words) - stopped many impulsive behaviors, praises himself every time he walks away from an argument with someone, or decides against an impulsive purchase, trying to be in a stable r/s. He's learned new coping skills, all without therapy, by reading books on relationships, anger management, how to be a gentleman, how to be happy, etc. Strong man do this on his own. He is near retirement age. He can't be their scapegoat for life. He deserves some peace.

[Notwendy]

His family may not be able to move past their need to have him be the black child. Having a scapegoat can stabilize a family.

I don't think we outgrow wanting our parents' validation, but at some point, I hope your BF realizes they are who they are and that their opinions don't define him.

Glad that he is making such good progress.

[livednlearned]

I don't think we outgrow wanting our parents' validation, but at some point, I hope your BF realizes they are who they are and that their opinions don't define him.

Sometimes a demanding or punitive parent, or at the very least a highly critical parent, can reinforce the BPD person's internal voice that says demeaning things, sort of your BF talking down to himself so to speak. He doesn't like it, but it matches his interior dialogue, so it's a bit like negative validation. Meanwhile, a side that is healthier struggles to counter the degradation, and each time there is a negative conversation, it can provide an opportunity to overcome it.

I see this with my partner's BPD D19 when she is dealing with her BPD mother. Mom is demanding, and D19 is drawn to that demanding nature like moth to light. It both reinforces her view that she is xyz, while also giving her something to push against.

When it happens, I try to find something positive in the way she individuated from her mom. Like if her mom catastrophizes, and D19 senses that things won't get that bad, I will zero in on that instance of individuation, to point out that she was able to see and do something different from her mom (without being so obvious... .just a casual comment, then move on).