When older kids start to realize...the fallout...what to expect?

[sanemom]

I am watching "the fallout" now that the dust has finally settled in our case.  BPD mom has been labeled an alienator.  We have done some intense therapy with DSS16 while his older siblings have seen the reduction in the conflict.  BPD mom almost got thrown into jail for her bad behavior, but agreed to go to counseling and other stipulations to avoid it.  Her oldest daughter watched the judge chastise her mom for her continuous bad behavior (first time she has heard what the judge has actually said to her BPD mom).

So the conflict has decreased, and we are seeing an opening up of all of the kids.  Even DSD19 who has not talked to her dad in over a year is starting to text him some.  It does appear that BPD mom is not helping them as much financially as she probably had promised them, and now BPD mom realizes she will never be getting money from DH.

I am trying to put myself in their shoes... .trying to figure out what they must be thinking, how they much be feeling.  The older two have not been told by many that their mom is the high conflict one so they probably blame both parents.  DSS16 wants to blame both even though he has been told otherwise by counselors.  But now since DSS16 can't be mad at his dad anymore (dad has made things right with him), and I don't think he is able to face his anger at his mom, I am worried that he is starting to taking the full brunt of the guilt he must feel for his horrible behavior the past year... .without acknowledging that he was manipulated into doing the stuff he feels guilty for because he does not want to hold his BPD mom accountable.  Maybe he will get to that point eventually, but I don't think he is there yet.  He is more open than ever to us and more engaged with us as a family... .it truly is wonderful.  He does not have contact with his mom for a bit more, and even then it will be supervised so I hope that does not mess up the progress we have all made.

Anyone go through this with their teens?  Is there a period of depression?  Did any of the kids get to the anger phase?

Just wondering... .

[Nope]

I'm waiting as well. My SD13 does not get it. At all. She takes everything uBPDm says to her as fact, she refuses to get mad at her mom for even the most egregious things, and asking her mom to do anything at all to help her simply never occurs to her. She completely accepts that rules do not apply to her mom, logic does not apply to her mom, and double standards are perfectly acceptable when it comes to BM's behavior. SD13 has lived with us now for two years while only seeing her BPDm a handful of times. She is also in counseling. She refuses to get it because it would be too painful. To be honest, I don't see that changing any time soon.

But I am currently listening to a book on DVD called "The Girl With the Lower Back Tattoo" by Amy Schumer. She is a 35 year old comedian and in one of the earlier chapters she reads out loud one of her diary entries from when she was 13 and puts in her footnotes about how she feels now about the things she wrote then. She wrote things at age 13 like, "My poor mom said she dooesn't love my father, and she never did." Then adult Amy says, "Footnotes: Ummm... .Hello? Who the hell tells their middle school daughter stuff like that!" Several times after reading an excerpt from the diary where she talks about her mother's perceptions as if they are her own, adult Amy's footnote was "Brainwashing!" All of this made me actually laugh out loud, but also gave me real hope and reminded me that I don't need to force something that time will fix.

[Ulysses]

What an interesting topic.  I too worry about my children and the behavior they deal with.  Their dad is (still) high-functioning and pretty good at creating an image for the outside world.  He creates a fantasy world that in the past has come crashing down.  I assume he's in the fantasy-world rebuilding phase, but I don't really know.  I wonder what my children will conclude as they grow up, and again when they're adults.  I feel that I tried to plan my life but because of who I married, and the choices I made with him (and the unwillingness to put up with his affairs), my life is a little in shambles.  Granted I'm working and going to school, but it is not an easy juggle.  At any rate, I feel that I'm the one who appears unstable and beyond stressed-out, who can only provide my children with a tiny apartment and no big vacations.  Their dad provides that, and yet, it's like window-dressing on something filthy.

I don't think at this point it is necessarily good for my kids to "see" their real dad.  I think they will in time.  This can be very frustrating for me, because sometimes I very much want them to be able to see his destruction, his disordered thinking, etc.  But for now he provides them with the veneer of a stable home, although my S13 I think is starting to see things.  For instance, he won't let his dad teach him swimming or bike riding.  Instead he asks me to.  I've asked if he can work with his dad on some of it (e.g. the bike riding, since S13 is about 8in taller than I am), and his answer is, "I thought it was something you wanted to do with me so I told dad I was planning on doing it with you."  I never said that, but I wonder if it's a way out for him, so I just listen and don't say anything to the contrary.

At any rate, I wonder about your comment, Sanemom, that son "can't be angry with dad anymore."  I assume it's because he learned of manipulation going on and sees the truth?  But he might still have angry feelings he needs to work through, regardless.  And like you said, guilt.  I think that comes with the territory of being in a relationship with a disordered person - facing the behavior we engaged in that we regret after the fact.  It's a tough lesson for a kid to learn (or even an adult!), and it might take him years.  In the meantime, might he go through phases where he is angry with his dad, because it's easier for him to process/safer than being angry at himself or his mother? 

I have faced some angry outbursts from my S over the last couple of years.  My T keeps telling me it's because he feels safe with me and can express himself.  I think that's true but it's really hard sometimes.

Nope, I think you're right that it's probably too painful for a 13 year old girl to face her mom's shortcomings.  I imagine it's a hard road for you and your husband, but I think you're right that eventually she'll get it.

[david]

I have 4 SS's that are xBPDw from her first marriage. They are in their late 20's and early 30's. The oldest has serious substance abuse issues and was in incarcerated because of it. He has no contact with anyone but his mom. One is total NC with his mom and has been since 2008. Ex had her meltdown in 2007 and accused me of all kinds of things. He challenged her about it and he went NC. The other two are LC. I get along with two of the ss's very well. The other one doesn't stay in contact with his brothers or me. I see him occasionally.
We have two boys (17 and 13). We have 50/50 in our court order and it is more like 60/40 with the boys with me more than their mom. The older one doesn't get along with his mom. All she does is blame him for things. Both boys confirm it. The younger stays out of her way when he is with her and gets blamed for less. My ex used serious alienation tactics when she first left. It took them about three years to kind of figure out something wasn't right. The oldest challenged her a lot from what I heard and that is why he is in the situation he is with her now. The younger watched and learned.  They vent sometimes with me still and I listen and validate. They don't seem to want an answer. Ex is spiraling down the last year and seems to always be in crisis. She claimed she had something wrong with some of her vertebrae about five years ago and kept sending emails to me about the pain she is in, that she is getting injections in her spine, etc. She went out on workers comp around 10 months ago. She recently sent me an email saying she is getting a hip replacement. Don't know what happened to her vertebrae. I don't ask or reply to those emails.

[Panda39]

Both of my SO's daughters are angry with their mother. 

I think they both recognized a lot of bad behaviors their uBPDmom had/has but never thought they would be used on/against them.  It was okay to lie to, to con, to make false promises to other people.  They were quite the enmeshed little team with an "us" versus "them" mentality.  They all thought it funny when mom complained about the waitress that did absolutely nothing wrong and got lunch for free for example. Isn't mom smart for getting a free meal... .not a thought about the waitress being blamed for something she didn't do or the restaurant owner that comped the meal.  It was okay to spy on dad, go through his things, and read his text messages because it's "us" against "him".  A lot of black and white thinking.   

It was until those behaviors were directed at them and it happened in big ways that were specifically hurtful each daughter, that they saw the light so to speak.  D20 is VeryLC emails mostly and D15 is LC text and phone calls.  Both girls struggle with boundaries and guilt when it comes to their mom. The younger daughter receives therapy and the older daughter just stuffs it.

Panda39

[sanemom]

Both of my SO's daughters are angry with their mother. 

I think they both recognized a lot of bad behaviors their uBPDmom had/has but never thought they would be used on/against them.  It was okay to lie to, to con, to make false promises to other people.  They were quite the enmeshed little team with an "us" versus "them" mentality.  They all thought it funny when mom complained about the waitress that did absolutely nothing wrong and got lunch for free for example. Isn't mom smart for getting a free meal... .not a thought about the waitress being blamed for something she didn't do or the restaurant owner that comped the meal.  It was okay to spy on dad, go through his things, and read his text messages because it's "us" against "him".  A lot of black and white thinking.   

It was until those behaviors were directed at them and it happened in big ways that were specifically hurtful each daughter, that they saw the light so to speak.  D20 is VeryLC emails mostly and D15 is LC text and phone calls.  Both girls struggle with boundaries and guilt when it comes to their mom. The younger daughter receives therapy and the older daughter just stuffs it.

Panda39

I think this is more where we are going to be... .they have this fun ganging up on us (and others) like a bunch of middle schoolers.  It is sad that they may not realize unless BPD mom turns on them, and I am not sure she will anytime soon.  We have suddenly had to start helping DSD19 with school (nothing big yet), and her phone doesn't work so she has been using her roommate's phone.  I don't know if that is BPD mom turning on her though. 

I am not sure why she would turn on them until later except her finally realizing she can't win or something so the fun of the fight is gone.  She has never had the classic BPD thing with the scapegoat, etc.  She tends to keep even her exes in her sphere of influence--the only reason she turned on my DH is because he is the only ex who left her sphere of influence (I called it her flirt circle) and married.

[ennie]

Anyone go through this with their teens?  Is there a period of depression?  Did any of the kids get to the anger phase?

Just wondering... .

My oldest SD is now 16, and she is going through depression and anxiety, but in a lovely, self-aware way.  She does not have much anger, she is her mom's parent so she loves her unconditionally.  She raised her. 

She knows that she has shame and guilty that are caused by things in her relationship with her mom, but wants my opinion on how that is caused, why is happening.  She wants to let some of that shame go.  I had "THE TALK" with her the other day... .she says, "I think that there is really something wrong with my mom psychologically, and that she really should go to a psychiatrist and get medication.  What do you think is going on with her?"  Well, I say, she was actually diagnosed... .

At any rate, SD16 and I talk lovingly about mom, both of us noticing that for us, we WANT to see who we are and know how we affect others... .BPD mom is terrified she is bad, does not want to know who she is, and does not want to know how she affects others.  So treatment is hard.  For the two of us, we are eager learners about our vulnerabilities, so it is hard to understand why mom does not want to know. 

The thing is, she loves her mom because she sees the most beautiful part of her mom, and she has cared for her like a child.  She is invested in the project, wants it to succeed, wants others to love who her mom is.  So far, it seems to me that she does not have to go to a place of anger to separate from mom.  Not that she won't, just that she seems now to be able so easily to say, "Yes, I see my mom feels that way, but she is not rational in those moments, and I see it differently."  She is un-enmeshing. But, she is also a VERY empathetic person, and sees why and how her mom is in pain.  So she does not judge her.  But she just does not want to be LIKE her.  The super sweet and cool thing... .she wants to be like me.  She told me that now, I am more her mom.  That this is really, really scary to her. 

At mom's, the depression and anxiety is huge. At our house, the biggest factor to her lifting that is straight talk about what is happening, with no judgement. 

I think what is rally stabilizing to her is lots of support for her AND her mom being okay just how they are, that her mom took terrible abuse and did not pass that on.  That is not bad.  I tell SD16 that I see her goodness. This seems to allow her to feel more open to being critical in a positive way, that helps her to separate from mom without rage. 

I do not know what to expect, but I can say that the past year has gone from SD16 fighting to preserve her delusional view of mom, to depression and anxiety, to independence and joy at present. That is powerful, and restores my faith.