Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 06:22:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
204
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Self respect and open warfare  (Read 1246 times)
Notwendy
********
Online Online

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2016, 01:13:33 PM »

It's difficult. I see it from both sides having lived with BPD mom and wishing Dad would have put his foot down more. I also experienced an H being IMHO controlling and while it got him the control he liked ( a Stepford wife basically- who only complied to keep the peace and out of fear) he didn't have a real wife or one who loved him like he would have wanted.

You got your wife, and she got you, I get it.

You can discipline your kids however you like, but I hope your church doesn't turn away hungry people because that just seems against the spirit of the church. I know it can't feed the whole town without some means of financial support, but I hope they fed your family.
Logged
empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2016, 01:44:36 PM »

Excerpt
If you walk into the supply department and demand things and refuse to follow the supply departments procedure... .to expect to leave with your supplies is not reasonable.

My responsibility is to make sure the procedure is known.

I'm sure that you know this... .   a marriage is not a business arrangement or a contract. While it might be perfectly appropriate to not give money to a business person who is being demanding and crabby, it is not always appropriate to do the same with a spouse who is doing the same thing.

Secondly, your children did not do anything to be left without money to buy dinner. This isn't the same as the kids who decide that they don't want to eat whatever you fixed; in that case, their actions have consequences for them. In this case, your wife's actions affected the children as well.


One of the things that my h has said is that he sometimes thinks that if he can explain the situation enough, I will agree with him. This results in very long explanations on his part, repeating the same information multiple times. Regardless of how many times he repeats and gives details and how he feels, I might still disagree with him.


Do you think that you might have played into the "FF is bad" tape that your wife has?
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2016, 01:58:04 PM »


I intellectualy understand how all of these options make sense.

When your world gets small and the pressure is on my ability to evaluate these other things gets smaller... .you go with what you know.

I know that no good comes from abandoning structure.

I also know from experience that acts of kindness or grace are usually enabling and exacerbate bad behavior.  Not always... .but usually.

Go with what you know.

FF
Logged

MaybeSo
Distinguished Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Together five years, ended suddenly June 2011
Posts: 3680


Players only love you when they're playing...


« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2016, 02:38:55 PM »

To me, it sounds like you were 'triggered' by your wife. In that context, it would be your job to manage your own triggers.  It's not your job to try to manage or control your wife's tone of voice.

The way it ended up being approached, best I can tell, was an attempt to manage her ... .Give her a snack, hope it  'calms her down'  or hoping that with snack offering she will move into a different state like 'appreciation' instead of having the experience she was having which was pissy/harsh tone  (again, managing her means trying to change her state instead of focusing on managing your own state/triggers directly). 

When attempts to "manage her state" didn't work as you anticipated and she was still pissy... .you got even more triggered.  This resulted in refusing to provide money from wallet for dinner and you left again and missed a meal with her and kids and they didn't have cash to pay for meal (but worked it out on their own, anyway, good for them.) 

It seemed to have not escalated in the end, but, honestly I'm surprised.

People have their own experiences.  In my opinion, it is our job to be clear on our own triggers and to keep working to manage our own triggers, and stop trying to manage others. 

There is a quality to this that does bring in the same kind of rationale that was used with the baby buggy incident.  Many, many reasonable folks on this forum found your approach to be unproductive and unnecessarily provocative in the buggy incident. It's food for thought.

In many homes, someone walked in the door and heard a partner use a frustrated/harsh tone at the end of a busy day and didn't:

-Personalize it.
-Become as triggered by it or if they did get triggered owned it 100% as THEIR trigger and their responsibility.
-Adhere to a internal narrative that led to a role of victim or persecutor or rescuer vis a vie a story about how someone shouldn't be having the experience/tone they are having and it's your job to make it stop or else.  Stay off the drama/control triangle and accept (radical acceptance) that this person is having their own experience.  Period. If it bothers you or brings up anger, tension, anxiety... .that's your job to manage.  If she's spilling blood of course, you would take action, but this is 'tone of voice' we are discussing right now. 

One way to manage our own triggers (besides just leaving)  is to challenge some of your own "thoughts and beliefs" ala CBT, narrative therapy, rational emotive behavior therapy, DBT,  etc etc etc.  We get ourselves into trouble by getting overly attached or rigidly attached to every thought or belief we have as though it's concrete and 100% true at all times and for all situations.

Another person's tone of voice doesn't HAVE to tell a story about disrespect toward you or anything else, unless we choose to tell ourselves that story and choose to believe that narrative/story/thought/belief no matter what.  This is why therapy is SO hard.  It makes you question yourself, your thoughts, beliefs, patterns, assumptions. People find it uncomfortable.  Yup.     

We all come from cultures and environments with rules/attitudes/values/behaviors that may suit us or work well in one setting, but not be as effective or productive in another setting.

The litigators job is to argue his point to win in court.  "Warfare".  That same tact used in a intimate relationship would be the kiss of death.  The relationships would be "structured" perhaps but also it would be controlled, possibly be felt as abusive, cold and eventually... .probably dead.

For me, the key is flexibility of response given the situation, environment, etc. and a focus on managing self.

Logged

empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2016, 02:50:22 PM »

Well... .  bless your little heart.
Logged
chump
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 251


« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2016, 03:01:07 PM »

I'll admit to being baffled by the pushback on the money issue. FF, I understand your wife works, has some kind of income, is capable of planning for the need for cash for the church supper. I think it's a perfectly reasonable boundary to quietly withdraw from a person who is being confrontational, provocative, b___y, whatever. Simply don't participate.  I wouldn't hand cash to someone who was being disrespectful to me.  If you then began insulting her, fighting back, feeding into the drama, then yes, I'd be critical of that, but to simply drop your end of the rope, withdraw and return later makes complete sense to me.

I wonder if this is a little gendered?  If a man was being demanding with a woman, maybe for money, maybe for affection (or more), and doing it in an aggressive, confrontational way, I'm pretty sure most people would support a woman in her right to set a boundary and take a step away from that situation.

I just don't see how you harm a person by simply temporarily withdrawing from the situation.  I see how a pwBPD would PERCEIVE that as harm, or abandonment, but I'm surprised by the pushback here.

Chump
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2016, 03:18:52 PM »

It's not your job to try to manage or control your wife's tone of voice.

Correct... .I 100% agree.

www.cheatsheet.com/health-fitness/the-reactions-that-can-make-or-break-a-relationship.html/?ref=YF&yptr=yahoo

It is my job, IMHO, to appropriately show that I am "bidding" or "leaning in" to my wife.  That was the pretzel.

Basically... I told her in a "light way" (as opposed to a dozen roses in a card... .which would have been over the top)... .I like you... I'm for you.

There was nothing... .zero... .in her demeanor that indicated any appreciation.  Anger and contempt were showing (IMO).

Excerpt
  This resulted in refusing to provide money from wallet for dinner and you left again and missed a meal with her and kids and they didn't have cash to pay for meal (but worked it out on their own, anyway, good for them.) 


It's interesting to see what details people pick up on and what people omit.

There was no refusal... .

There was clarity in how the cash leaves my wallet.  Nothing new there.  

Other people can interpret it all they want in other ways.  If you don't put money in the coke machine and then rage at it and hate it because a coke didn't come out... .it's not the coke machines fault.

Yes... .an extreme example... .but I think there is validity there.

Sunday night was the start of the latest round of "open warfare" where there was little evidence of trying to hide her contempt for me in front of kids... .or in private.  

So... .did I hope a pretzel or the other nice things I tried would break some ice... sure.  Was there emotional involvement... .sure.  

Did emotions drive my decision... .I would say not.  If I was inconsistent about doing things in the face of blatant disrespect... .then I think an argument could be made... .that it was a decision based on a trigger, vice something I've thought about.



FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2016, 03:39:26 PM »

 FF, I understand your wife works, has some kind of income, is capable of planning for the need for cash for the church supper.

She pays... .roughly... .1/4 to 1/3rd of the time at church.  Almost never by agreement ahead of time.  We have large family and sometimes kids need to go potty on the way in... .sometimes I take them... .sometimes mommy does.

In football... .this would be an audible.  It just makes sense at the time.  So... .I come into gym (where we eat) with a kid or two in tow and my wife and other kids are getting food and drinks out.  Usually my wife will say... I've already paid.  Occasionally... .hey... .can you go pay... you owe them (fill in blank).

I'm a "southern gentleman" so I hold doors, chairs and that kind of thing.  Granted... .when kids are around... .that can slide based on childcare needs.  In other words... .hold a door or chase a kid down... .you chase the kid down.

On a date night with my wife and I, she will usually sit in her car seat when we stop and I walk around and open the door... .etc etc.  Sort of an "unwritten contract".  I teach my boys and my girls the same thing.

Back to money thing.  She has her own job... .her own account that I have no access to.  I contribute money to that account as well.  How she spends that money is her business.

So... .all of the money she makes goes into her account and some of mine.  I have no oversight nor do I want any, of that account.

I have my own account.  

We have a joint account that household expenses are paid from.  I contribute 100% of money to that account.

Does my wife pay for things for the family from her account.  Yes she does... .regularly.  I thank her and show appreciation when she does and I become aware of it.  

When she has asked for additional funds for things and is pleasant (or better)... .it is rare that she is ever turned down and when there is a turn down I make sure and give or show a reason other than (I don't like it).  Go through compromise steps... .etc etc.

If she has asked for funds because she deserves it, or any kind of threat... .disrespect... .imagine dysfunctional behavior.  I have a hard time remembering any time in the last year or two that I have said yes.

Sure... it's an unwritten contract, but a familiar one to the relationship.

Just to give a little bit of a big picture view of money, as opposed to the "soda straw" to this one event.

You may not like my methods... .but I do believe I am consistent.

FF


Logged

Notwendy
********
Online Online

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 04:36:29 PM »

Did they get to eat at  the church? I sure hope the church let them eat.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 04:40:30 PM »

Did they get to eat at  the church? I sure hope the church let them eat.

I have no idea.  I don't plan to ask.

I would be shocked if church denied them... .bit that really wasn't a large part of my thinking. 

FF
Logged

empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 05:28:43 PM »

FF, have you read Leslie Vernick's books on marriage?
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 05:46:46 PM »

FF, have you read Leslie Vernick's books on marriage?

Yes... couple of them.  The last "reading assignment" that the BC gave us was Vernick's book on

"how to act right when your spouse is wrong".  Good book.  I devoured it quickly... .read it a few times.  Wife apparently went about a 1/4 of the way and quit.  I've tentatively asked a time or two if she wanted to discuss it... .no desire at all.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307458490/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I've also read

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307731189/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0307731189&pd_rd_r=13MCPFE5XZW0RWR1Y0PT&pd_rd_w=Pjswf&pd_rd_wg=Ox5uG&psc=1&refRID=13MCPFE5XZW0RWR1Y0PT

But it's been a while.  Almost a year.  I remember shaking my head through most of it... .and doing some adjustments to "find my voice"... .

Empath,

Your thoughts... .or anything in those books you would like to point me to?


Personally... .I'm really attracted to Townsend and Cloud in Boundaries series.  My wife hates them... .even though she initially thought it would be great idea and pushed... .(until doing Bible study and started reading... )

Each person defines themselves... .which defines responsibility... . In that light... I'm responsible for defining my wallet.  If my wife wants to "come inside my boundary" and get something from the wallet... .she knows she is "inside" my boundary and should "respect" that.


Same is if I wanted to get something from her purse.

I get it that my couple lines are a bit simplistic... .but you can see where my mind goes.  To try to get full nuance of my thoughts would take too much space...   Smiling (click to insert in post)

FF
Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 06:01:22 PM »

I really get why you wouldn't want to hand over money to someone who is treating you poorly. And she could have planned to have adequate funds for dinner for herself and the children. That she didn't seems to indicate that she planned on you being there and providing money for everyone.

I think what is concerning to me about your response to her, FF, is that it appears that you are more focused on winning a battle, rather than focusing upon the direction the war between the two of you is going, and it does appear to be a war.

As HopefulDad pointed out, it's totally inappropriate to be snapped at in front of your children. Yet from another perspective, might not a child feel insecure that Dad can deny Mom funds for their dinner? I don't think that's modeling healthy behavior for your children either.

My thought is that by being so rigid about being treated with respect and that her voice tone was inappropriate and that she showed no appreciation for you doing a kind turn for her, you are undermining your marriage.

I learned to "toe the line" with my ex, but obedient behavior does not equate to love. The more I felt that he manipulated me, the more I was "radicalized" and grew to hate him. That your wife could suddenly be warm and compliant makes me wonder if this stems from insecurity. Seldom does it seem that a pwBPD can recognize and admit to their own faults.
Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Notwendy
********
Online Online

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 06:30:32 PM »

I think if it was just one woman saying what some of us are saying, then it would be easy to dismiss it as just one person's opinion. Yet several women are expressing a similar response. This also happened with the stroller situation.

I see your point of view, FF, but your wife isn't a general on the other side. She's a woman, and even though she may have BPD, would it make sense to look at things from a woman's perspective? Some of us are expressing how it feels to be on the receiving end of that kind of behavior.

Your wife said " you should be kind to me" but you were too angry to hear her.

When we are powerless- we fight back in other ways. For me, I just faked being nice while for the sake our survival, but I didn't feel any of it. This too was damaging the relationship.

You did win this war "FF" outright, but your wife has other ways. Now I don't have BPD, but if I did, I might be doing some of the things she is doing- like telling the church people things about you, breaking into your e mail. You are overtly winning, but I think she has her own way of fighting back. However, since you have the power, I don't see this stopping until you choose to lay down arms.



Logged
KateCat
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 2907


« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2016, 06:39:16 PM »

On this evening you describe, a struggling family almost made it to a church dinner together. I refuse to believe you feel good about your part in what happened instead, formflier.
Logged
Aussie0zborn
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 803



« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2016, 06:40:23 PM »

What a horrible situation you've allowed yourself to be in. I see a few mistakes here due the conditioning of the NON in becoming a servant and punching bag... .

Pretzel is a treat for mum? What about the kids? Treats are for kids FIRST, adults SECOND. You said no to the kids when they ask for pretzels, she however shares with the kids and they thank HER because she said YES and the nasty guy in you said NO. You bought them, she shared with the kids, she got the kudos. Think about what this example means... .she is on a pedestal and gets worshipped. She has probably made it known that she is more important than anyone else in the family and that her feelings and wishes override everybody else's and you're feeding that.

Snapping at you in front of the children is probably the norm and this would have been established a long time ago. My observation is that this is often done to show everybody around you that you are useless, mean and nasty and that she suffers by being with you.  I mean... .you wouldn't give them money for food and I'm guessing you did that in front of the kids and then went off to sulk. What do you think she said to the kids at that point? That you're a great guy or that you're a useless piece of sh!t ?

The best part of your story is that she then sends you a text full of manipulations and twists. ":)id something happen at work today darling that you didn't tell me about?" See how it's all "your fault"?

It seems me that you are too far gone and any attempt to balance the relationship and maintain your ground will be the onset of WWIII with a very negative outcome for you.

Do you have any plans, strategies?



Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2016, 06:53:50 PM »

 I don't see this stopping until you choose to lay down arms.

To be clear... .years ago I laid down arms.  "It" got much worse and I think contributed to "feeding" the monster that I am not a person but an object that she can abuse and will still "perform" to her whims... .regardless of her behavior.

Relatively speaking... ."this type of thing" from me... .IMO has resulted in better behavior from my wife (relatively speaking).  

Provide a consistent structure for how the world works... .and let my wife choose to operate within that structure... .or run outside that structure and do her own thing.

I do think that it helps to see a woman's perspective and I value that.  I do hear it.

I heard my wife  If "hearing" is defined as doing or acceding to what they want... .well... .I reject that.  

I will tell you that I have talked with P ... .actually she has talked more to me... .about having "emotional agility"... .or working on having more of that.  We practice it often.  Perhaps I'm somewhat better.  

But... that would be for issues "on the periphery" vice core issues.  Maybe eventually I'll be able to do it with core stuff.

Core stuff would be

Threats
Blatant disrespect
Health and safety issues.

Basically things in my mind where "clarity" is more important.  Times in the past where I tried to be "kind"... .the clarity got really messed up.  Struggling to think of an example... .I guess I'd have to go back about 3-4 years when my wife wanted to pack a bunch of kids in back of a pickup truck and send them across town (not rural) with my oldest at the wheel.

I was gentle in telling her and explaining that it wasn't a good idea.  It happened anyway... .police pulled them over... .

My wife "dodged" with some validity because I didn't say no... .I just "recommended".

Anyone think my "nos" get confused now in the relationship... .?  

Please don't take that last sentence in a "punishing" kind of way.  My no means no.  Men and women alike need to have a "no" that is respected.  

FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2016, 06:55:50 PM »

On this evening you describe, a struggling family almost made it to a church dinner together. I refuse to believe you feel good about your part in what happened instead, formflier.

Feeling "good" is probably a poor choice of words.  Definitely.

By same token... .we don't want to teach people to feel "bad" for standing up for themselves or boundaries.

Let me think and see if there is a better word... .

I get what you are saying.  I'm NOT happy about it.  It is what it is. 

FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2016, 07:03:01 PM »

 I mean... .you wouldn't give them money for food and I'm guessing you did that in front of the kids and then went off to sulk. What do you think she said to the kids at that point? That you're a great guy or that you're a useless piece of sh!t ?
 

Do you have any plans, strategies?


It's been happening since 2009... .which was about year 15 of marriage.  Long story.  Natural disaster was catalyst.  

My wife has... .from time to time... .told my kids that (your useless comment... .and other things)... .with no actual input from me.  

So yes... .I do have some affect on that... .but I'm not "responsible" for it.

The things my wife has said, emailed and otherwise said about me to others over the years is shocking... .it is what it is.

The current plan is to "hunker down" until legal stuff gets resolution (again long story)... .and then see where it goes from there.

Perhaps tomorrow my wife and I may do some marriage planning with my P... .we have an appointment with her... .we'll see if my wife shows.

There was no sulking.  I drove to a restaurant and enjoyed a meal by myself.  Called a friend of mine.  Yes we talked a bit about the incident, but this guy is familiar and I ask him to be deliberate about helping me steer mind/conversation to something else... .vice ruminating on "the issue".  Practically speaking that means we talked mostly about other subjects and a lot about him... .vice me.

When I say things about "deliberate self care"... .that is the kind of thing I talk about.  I have a "plan" or "structure" that I activate when things seem to be going haywire. 



FF
Logged

ArleighBurke
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: was married - 15 yrs
Posts: 911


« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2016, 07:06:43 PM »

FF: You've certainly taken a lot of critism from this event. I hope that you can see that there are a variety of opinions, and whilst it is easy for us to pick at what you did - we didn't live it. It is up to you to decide whether there is wisdom in what we say or not.

Of course I also want to weight in  Smiling (click to insert in post)... .
I do find your dealings with your wife heavy handed. That may work for you, but perhaps they work from fear and control rather than love and support. I am also in the military and have been told my approach to my wife and kids is too authoritarian.

If there were no kids involved, then denying your wife money at the church was probably okay. It was a slap in her face - and she would probably be embarassed to turn up to church with no money and no husband. However, you also have the kids to think about. Perhaps you could have given the money to the eldest kid instead - that's you not abandoning your responsibility for your children. Even if it was your wife's responsibility to pay "from her share", she didn't have cash on her - a minor lack of planning - completely predictable - she shouldn't be punished for that.

But I also wonder what YOU get out of not going - do you go to church FOR HER, or for you/kids/community. If you wife was out of town for some reason - would you still go to church with your kids? If you ONLY go to church for her, then not going with her is an appropriate action: you are withdrawing yourself from HER company because she is behaving inappropriately. But if you go to church for any other reason, then your actions were a PUNISHMENT to her - and not OK. The better action would have been to go to church, but tell her "I am finding your tone/manner/mood disrespectful. I will not talk with you until you choose to talk respectfully" - and go in with her and the kids.

We can have boundaries, and we can allow "natural consequences", but we should not punish.

Please keep posting. We are all learning from this.
Logged

Your journey, your direction. Be the captain!
HopefulDad
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorcing
Posts: 663


« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2016, 07:14:37 PM »

As HopefulDad pointed out, it's totally inappropriate to be snapped at in front of your children. Yet from another perspective, might not a child feel insecure that Dad can deny Mom funds for their dinner? I don't think that's modeling healthy behavior for your children either.

This is a problem.  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.  And no matter which view you take, the kids got triangulated into their problems.  That's not good for their well being.

But that being said, I think I've been the only one to raise this issue in this thread.  It doesn't appear to be the focus of FF's concern.  I think it might behoove FF and his wife to discuss with his P how to avoid triangulating the kids into their issues.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2016, 07:20:18 PM »

One protest:

I didn't deny my wife money.  She had a choice.  For her own reasons... .she decided to stick with her manner of approaching me knowing that she wouldn't get the money.

I get it the impact is the same... .but for people to say I "denied" her money... .is (IMO) making me a bigger (fill in pejorative term) than I was.  Absolutely agree and was intentional about being "authoritarian"... ."clear"... .etc etc.

When I have done things before out of "love and support"... .usually it goes south (bad).  Not always.

I go to this church for several reasons.  Many times I have taken kids when wife is gone.  

In my r/s... .explaining my "findings" or "opinion" on my wife's actions is usually not good.  

I own my need for space and sometimes I will identify the issue... but I don't "assign" it.  

"I'm not able to continue this conversation while there are threats between us"

Vice

"I'm not able to continue this conversation since you threatened me... ."

Note:  This change was insisted upon by current P.  She is adamant the "issue" be identified... .but is not my job to "hand" it to my wife.  I identify the issue... .and I'm obvious about not picking it up and owning it myself... .then my wife has a choice of what... .if anything... .to do with the issue.

FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2016, 07:27:40 PM »

 You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.  

Exactly!  And in situations like that... .it is my recommendation to pick your poison and then be consistent.

If sometimes my wife (or anyone) was disrespectful and I would give money... .and other times I would keep my wallet shut.  Could you imagine the chaos?

Seriously... .think about the big picture.  With disrespect... .my wallet stays closed. (heavy handed... but simple)

As opposed to... ."disrespect is ok if at church... .but not ok in front of a restaurant.  It is not ok on Sunday because my wife has time to recover... .but I let her disrespect me on Monday and get money because I know she is going to work.  Yet on Tuesday I "clamp down"... .because you can't let these things get too far out of hand... ."

So... .it's a given that my kids have no idea what is going to come out of my wife's mouth... and her actions.  They adjust and pretend it's "normal"

Anyone think people have a hard time predicting what I will do?  Yes... .they may think I'm an a$$... .very similar to someone that may cuss a guardrail for "being there".  Especially if the ground just beyond the guardrail is flat and wouldn't have damaged the car.

I set a structure... .they can count of that.  It's got it's good points... .and it's bad points.

FF

Logged

empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2016, 07:45:57 PM »

Excerpt
I didn't deny my wife money.  She had a choice.  For her own reasons... .she decided to stick with her manner of approaching me knowing that she wouldn't get the money.

Did you both plan for you not to go along with the family to church in advance? This wouldn't be a big deal if the kids weren't innocent victims of their parents' issues. She may have told the church people about your 'badness', too.


Excerpt
Your thoughts... .or anything in those books you would like to point me to?

Yes, the idea of developing your CORE strength when we are dealing with destructive marriages.

I will be:
C = committed to the truth
O = open to feedback, instruction, growth
R = responsible for myself, respectful to others
E = empathetic and compassionate toward others without enabling abuse and disrespect
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2016, 07:55:29 PM »

[quote
Did you both plan for you not to go along with the family to church in advance?

Normal is we are both there.  90% of the time this is normal.  Not always... but close.  To be fair... .we also didn't make advance plans for me to be ready for several days of "her behavior".  


Excerpt
Your thoughts... .or anything in those books you would like to point me to?

Yes, the idea of developing your CORE strength when we are dealing with destructive marriages.

I will be:
C = committed to the truth     (the truth is well known about how to get money from me)
O = open to feedback, instruction, growth  (we have talked about this before... it's well known)
R = responsible for myself, respectful to others  (my wallet, my responsibility, I provided a pathway to solve the needs to others)
E = empathetic and compassionate toward others without enabling abuse and disrespect  (I did NOT do a good job of expressing empathy at that moment.  To be honest... .I was likely empathied out from several days of effort.  No chance I enabled disrespect

[/quote]

I'm totally open to having others "mark up" the CORE in the way that they see it.  In fact... .I would ask they do so.  

FF
Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2016, 08:13:44 PM »

Being the pugilistic b* that I am, and that I have to suppress this part with my BPDH, and knowing that you're a worthy arguer, I just cannot let this go without adding my two cents.

O = open to feedback, instruction, growth

It's my feeling that you give lip service to looking at this situation from "the woman's perspective" and your immediate response shows (to me, at least) that you are not spending much time "trying on" this situation outside your own reference point.

What I hear is JADEing about disrespect, voice tones, rules and regulations, not being consistent, etc. I do understand the need for boundaries and limits and respect.

What I don't hear is compassion for your children's possible humiliation from not having money to pay for their dinner. I don't hear understanding about your wife feeling embarrassment that could have been avoided. Like others have said, it is possible to say that being spoken to like that is unacceptable, yet take the high road and pay their way for the food they eat.

I know you're trying hard to establish boundaries with your wife, but your children might see your behavior as unreliable and abandoning.

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, and that's what those of us here are doing. In the heat of the moment, we all make decisions that may not be the best, had we had time to think things through. As much as I like to pat you on the back for how much improvement you've made in bringing your best self to the game, I'm finding that in this topic, it seems like you want to hold a hard line and not really examine how your behavior appears to others.
Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
KateCat
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 2907


« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2016, 08:50:14 PM »

Same here. I don't understand what seems to be an abandonment of hard work done on your part.

Instead, I see your kids, in the future, talking to friends, partners, spouses, or therapists and saying, of their chaotic childhood and battling parents: "It never ended, it never ever ended."
Logged
Verbena
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 605


« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2016, 09:54:39 PM »

I think you were right in removing yourself from her presence given how she was behaving; however, not giving her money was not a good call because it was for the children's food, too.  

Even with strong, consistent boundaries with your wife, the level of chaos in your home still seems very high.  I could only imagine how much worse it would be if you didn't have those boundaries. 

I just have to wonder at all the damage being done to the kids.  That's always been the biggest concern for me as I read your posts.  Would they truly be better off spending time with their parents separately? 

Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2016, 10:34:58 PM »

Quick update.

She comes out of kids rooms and I did a small "bid".  

She stops but doesn't speak.  One more small bid.  She turns to me but doesn't speak.

I up the ante and say " couch space available for snuggling".

She stood still for 5 min.  Then walked over to me.

We cuddled for 45 min.  No speaking.  She stopped snuggling... .spoke to a child... .back to snuggling.

Went to bedroom... .snuggle... .sex.  No speaking.

I said a couple small things... .then let it go.

The no speaking thing is new.

FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2016, 10:39:46 PM »


Perhaps she is struggling with what she and her mentor talked about today.

I know the training... .it is about showing love and respect when you don't feel like it.

There is about zero chance mentor would encourage her in any of her recent behavior.

She seems fearful... .anxious.


FF
Logged

Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: 1 [2] 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!