Nons and learning boundaries

[Think About It....]

I have a question for anyone who is with a non, who was formerly married to a bp.?  ? When they REALLY first begin to get the notion that they have been abused horribly, and that they don't set boundaries... do they then take it too far in the opposite direction?

My non is really driving me nuts lately.?  After me talking and talking to him and validating his feelings about how things have gone down with his bpex and his ubp daughter being alienated from him... his anger is unimaginable.?  Since no one else is around who he will express that to, he now seems to be taking it out on me.?  ? Not in violent ways, but in ways that come across as him being controlling of me.?  ?

I bought my house years before I met him, and he's been living here with me for about 7 months.?  ? I pay all the bills just like I always did, and now I buy 99.9% of the groceries.?  ? He still pays for the boat we are buying, so it's not like he doesn't have any expenses... but he does not contribute to the household bills here, nor does he help with chores... he does his own laundry, and that is all.?  ? He works hard and is physically and emotionally exhaused all of the time, has constant headaches and muscle pain.?  ? In short, he's a bundle of nerves.?  ? Not a whole lot of fun, usually, but I am a calm person and I usually just go about my business.?  ? If he's in a mood I ignore him and do my own thing.?  ?

He was complaining the other day that he doesn't feel like the house is "ours."?  ? He says he notices all these "little digs" that show him he's not welcome and doesn't really "own" the place.?  ? For example... he stacks piles of empty boxes in the family room and I wait and wait for him to move them or recycle them and it doesn't happen.?  ? Finally I clean up the place and put them in the garage.?  ? Then I get accused of being "controlling" because I moved "his" boxes.?  ? It's used as an illlustration that somehow he isn't welcome.?  ? After moving yet another pile of boxes when I cleaned the room, that night he brought home another box from work, something that contained car parts.?  ? He threw it on the family room couch, and it was no small box.?  ?  The next day when I was cleaning, I again put the box in the garage... that night, he went to the garage, grabbed the box, and threw it on the couch with an "attitude" and went to bed?  ?  I went in and ask him, "uh... was there something important about that box?"?  ? He goes, "Yes.?  ? I put it there."?  ? I said..."did you have plans for it?"?  ? He said, "No.?  ? I just WANTED it THERE."?  ?  I said, well suit yourself - and he replied, "fine.?  I will."?  So I went in the family room and moved the box to the garage again - suiting MYSELF.?  ?  In this place, I wouldn't even let my KIDS throw stuff all over the place, and boxes either go in the garage if they are usable or needed, and if not, they go in the recycle bin.?  ? I felt like he was in effect, saying he should be allowed to disrespectfully fling stuff all over and I am not allowed to clean up.?  ? Then I want to SCREAM, for cripes sake it's a BOX, and he makes it all about HIM...

I've waited and waited for him to clean up the messes he makes and he does not lift one finger to help.?  ? So I finally do it, and now I find he thinks that's "controlling" of me.?  ?  ? When he told me I was "controlling" because I cleaned up the house and removed a huge pile of junk he had put in the family room, I replied:?  "Well, maybe I have not been good enough about asking you to help out with chores.?  ? Maybe that's why you don't feel like you own the place.?  ? I am so used to doing everything myself, that I don't usually say, 'hey, can you clean the furnace filters' or 'hey, can you help with the yard' - maybe if I did that better, shared the load, maybe you'd feel more like you had ownership."?  ? His reply blew me away:?  ?  "Oh no, you can do ALL that stuff.?  ? I don't care about that.?  ? I just want to feel like I own the place, is all."?  ? I looked at him, thinking, "oh, so you want it for NOTHING?  Just for showing UP?" ?  but of course I didn't sAY that because I walk on such eggshells and to try to talk to him is often so crazymaking, the way he twists things.?  He can't deal with ANYTHING, it seems.?  No noise, no visitors, nothing that isn't completely routine from day to day.?  He cannot handle change of any kind, it upsets him terribly.?  ?

I've always been someone who loved redecorating and fixing up the house.  It's part of who I am.?  I remodeled my whole kitchen by myself, before he moved in.?  ? Now I don't even feel like I can pick up a paintbrush and paint a room in my own house because I will have to deal with him getting upset.?  ? If he loses anything, he always first assumes my daughter lost it, and guess what - she's 19 and doesn't go near his stuff, so no way.? ?  He always finds it later in a place he put it... but someone else is always blamed, first.?  ?  ?

And the other day I noticed a weird reaction in myself - a physical reaction.?  ? He took a different vehicle to work on a Saturday, and his car remained parked at home.?  Everytime I walked by the window and caught a glimpse of his car out of the corner of my eye, I felt an internal tightening in my stomach - my mind knew he wasn't home but my eye suddenly saw his car, and my body reacted.?  ? What is that supposed to mean?  

I know he's a non.?  ? I just don't know if he is also bp, or has fleas... or if he is trying out boundaries for the first time, and using them on ME inappropriately instead of with his ex and daughter,where he should have used them years ago.?  ? He's feeling picked on.?  ? He's feeling duped and lied to.?  All of those things are true - very true, via his bpex, I mean she scammed him and he's finally seen what everyone has been trying to tell him for years, but his denial prevented him from seeing.?  ? But he was not ever lied to, manipulated, or picked on by ME...

So once again, I pay the price for what his bpex did to him...

I used to think maybe God put me in his life to help him - now I am starting to wonder if Satan put me in his life to bring me down...

[Missy]

I have a question for anyone who is with a non, who was formerly married to a bp.?  ? When they REALLY first begin to get the notion that they have been abused horribly, and that they don't set boundaries... do they then take it too far in the opposite direction?

My non is really driving me nuts lately.?  After me talking and talking to him and validating his feelings about how things have gone down with his bpex and his ubp daughter being alienated from him... his anger is unimaginable.?  Since no one else is around who he will express that to, he now seems to be taking it out on me.?  ? Not in violent ways, but in ways that come across as him being controlling of me.?  ?

I bought my house years before I met him, and he's been living here with me for about 7 months.?  ? I pay all the bills just like I always did, and now I buy 99.9% of the groceries.?  ? He still pays for the boat we are buying, so it's not like he doesn't have any expenses... but he does not contribute to the household bills here, nor does he help with chores... he does his own laundry, and that is all.?  ? He works hard and is physically and emotionally exhaused all of the time, has constant headaches and muscle pain.?  ? In short, he's a bundle of nerves.?  ? Not a whole lot of fun, usually, but I am a calm person and I usually just go about my business.?  ? If he's in a mood I ignore him and do my own thing.?  ?

He was complaining the other day that he doesn't feel like the house is "ours."?  ? He says he notices all these "little digs" that show him he's not welcome and doesn't really "own" the place.?  ? For example... he stacks piles of empty boxes in the family room and I wait and wait for him to move them or recycle them and it doesn't happen.?  ? Finally I clean up the place and put them in the garage.?  ? Then I get accused of being "controlling" because I moved "his" boxes.?  ? It's used as an illlustration that somehow he isn't welcome.?  ? After moving yet another pile of boxes when I cleaned the room, that night he brought home another box from work, something that contained car parts.?  ? He threw it on the family room couch, and it was no small box.?  ?  The next day when I was cleaning, I again put the box in the garage... that night, he went to the garage, grabbed the box, and threw it on the couch with an "attitude" and went to bed?  ?  I went in and ask him, "uh... was there something important about that box?"?  ? He goes, "Yes.?  ? I put it there."?  ? I said..."did you have plans for it?"?  ? He said, "No.?  ? I just WANTED it THERE."?  ?  I said, well suit yourself - and he replied, "fine.?  I will."?  So I went in the family room and moved the box to the garage again - suiting MYSELF.?  ?  In this place, I wouldn't even let my KIDS throw stuff all over the place, and boxes either go in the garage if they are usable or needed, and if not, they go in the recycle bin.?  ? I felt like he was in effect, saying he should be allowed to disrespectfully fling stuff all over and I am not allowed to clean up.?  ? Then I want to SCREAM, for cripes sake it's a BOX, and he makes it all about HIM...

I've waited and waited for him to clean up the messes he makes and he does not lift one finger to help.?  ? So I finally do it, and now I find he thinks that's "controlling" of me.?  ?  ? When he told me I was "controlling" because I cleaned up the house and removed a huge pile of junk he had put in the family room, I replied:?  "Well, maybe I have not been good enough about asking you to help out with chores.?  ? Maybe that's why you don't feel like you own the place.?  ? I am so used to doing everything myself, that I don't usually say, 'hey, can you clean the furnace filters' or 'hey, can you help with the yard' - maybe if I did that better, shared the load, maybe you'd feel more like you had ownership."?  ? His reply blew me away:?  ?  "Oh no, you can do ALL that stuff.?  ? I don't care about that.?  ? I just want to feel like I own the place, is all."?  ? I looked at him, thinking, "oh, so you want it for NOTHING?  Just for showing UP?" ?  but of course I didn't sAY that because I walk on such eggshells and to try to talk to him is often so crazymaking, the way he twists things.?  He can't deal with ANYTHING, it seems.?  No noise, no visitors, nothing that isn't completely routine from day to day.?  He cannot handle change of any kind, it upsets him terribly.?  ?

I've always been someone who loved redecorating and fixing up the house.  It's part of who I am.?  I remodeled my whole kitchen by myself, before he moved in.?  ? Now I don't even feel like I can pick up a paintbrush and paint a room in my own house because I will have to deal with him getting upset.?  ? If he loses anything, he always first assumes my daughter lost it, and guess what - she's 19 and doesn't go near his stuff, so no way.? ?  He always finds it later in a place he put it... but someone else is always blamed, first.?  ?  ?

And the other day I noticed a weird reaction in myself - a physical reaction.?  ? He took a different vehicle to work on a Saturday, and his car remained parked at home.?  Everytime I walked by the window and caught a glimpse of his car out of the corner of my eye, I felt an internal tightening in my stomach - my mind knew he wasn't home but my eye suddenly saw his car, and my body reacted.?  ? What is that supposed to mean?  

I know he's a non.?  ? I just don't know if he is also bp, or has fleas... or if he is trying out boundaries for the first time, and using them on ME inappropriately instead of with his ex and daughter,where he should have used them years ago.?  ? He's feeling picked on.?  ? He's feeling duped and lied to.?  All of those things are true - very true, via his bpex, I mean she scammed him and he's finally seen what everyone has been trying to tell him for years, but his denial prevented him from seeing.?  ? But he was not ever lied to, manipulated, or picked on by ME...

So once again, I pay the price for what his bpex did to him...

I used to think maybe God put me in his life to help him - now I am starting to wonder if Satan put me in his life to bring me down...

[Oy-vey!]

Give him the option of getting into therapy and getting the help he needs - or leaving.  You are not his therapist.  He is not being a good partner.  He needs to work through his anger and resentment - but he can't take it out on you.

Obviously he has wonderful qualities, else you wouldn't have put up with it for this long.  But, he needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility for his own stuff.  You don't need a partner who needs to be looked after like a child.  You need an adult who is a true partner.

This is advice I'd give to anyone - regardless of the partner's history, BPDx or not.

[laurena82]

Everytime I walked by the window and caught a glimpse of his car out of the corner of my eye, I felt an internal tightening in my stomach - my mind knew he wasn't home but my eye suddenly saw his car, and my body reacted.?  ? What is that supposed to mean?  

It means there is something really wrong, and you dont want him on your turf.?  

It IS all still your turf...you're doing everything, and paying for everything, and if ANYONE should be angry with the other one, it is YOU should be angry with HIM for not stepping up to the plate and being an active, responsible, loving , caring?  partner with you.

Perhaps he has lots of "issues" that are making him so hard to live with, but that doesnt meanyou have to put up with it.

I am in a similar situation as you, only my SO is helpful around the house and respectful and decent that way.?  But I STILL get angry/upset that I bought this house for myself and my kids, and I dont mind him living here with me, I LOVE living with him, however when his kids are here on the weekends, there is NO ROOM.?  ONe takes over the living room ( and I only have the one small living room...no family room or anything) the other is on an airmatteress in loft outside our bedroom door, can barely step over it to get to bathroom during night...and we keep living this way because he cant afford to make monthly payments to buy a bigger place, because he's VOLUNTARILY paying MORE per month in child support than friend of court would order, because he got guilted into it by UBPDxW, and still feels guilty about it...and I'm getting pretty tired of putting up with his kids junk all over on these weekends ( and I love the kids) just so he can keep paying xW all this extra $. (she has no job, and stays living in ritzy house they had during marriage...would be such a hardship on the kids to have to move,youknow...)

So anyhow, I get upset about THAT, REAL upset when I see kids stuff all over, like your feeling with the car there...

I dont think what he's doing is setting a
"boundary" with you...I think he's accusing you of stuff thats unreasonable, and youve got to get out of that situation.

I used to think maybe God put me in his life to help him

I think this is what got you to where you are right now...looks like youve been doing EVERYTHING except his personal laundry...
This is too much "help"...he's not invested at all in this relationship from what I can see here...I mean, its GREAT for him, he gets everything done for him and paid for him and then he gets to vent to you and your daughter when he's upset...
...and what do you get ?

Obviously there was something wonderful about him that got your relationship going...but it looks to me like its?  deteriorated and its a REAL negative force in your life right now...

He is not being a good partner.?  He needs to work through his anger and resentment - but he can't take it out on you.

I think that quote from OyVey says it all.

I felt an internal tightening in my stomach

And I think youre getting real clear signals that its time to act..

Hopefully things will turn around...

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[Oy-vey!]

Laurie,

I'm sure you've had many talks with your SO about the financial situation, but this is something that popped into my head as you described your living situation...  does he realize that if he didn't pay her so much that he would have more to spend on the kids' welfare when they are with him and that they deserve to have a better living arrangement when they are with the two of you?  He is cheating them out of their life with him by giving her so much.  That sounds somewhat heartless, but it is true... that is why there are schedules to calculate support - so that each parent isn't shorted by the support amount - neither her nor him.  So, if he paid her the "right" amount, then the kids would be better off when they are with the two of you.

Guilt is a powerful emotion - it is the siamese twin of manipulation, but dressed up as an emotion. 

[Oy-vey!]

oops.  double post.

[wornout]

From what I've read on the intro board and on the Working on Ourselves board, alot of nons have issues--period.  Doesn't really matter where they came from.

My guy NEVER was married to the BP.  Yet he's got major boundaries issues.  He tends to let people walk all over him until he gets really mad.  Then he goes off (oftentimes on BP).  He has justified this as "fighting back" or "defending" himself.  ...It's like, he just doesn't get the concept of "Just say 'No' and walk away" or even "Just walk away and say 'No' later, when things are calm."  ...It's all either fight or flight. 

Just tonight, he and I went around.  It started as a misunderstanding, in which he started shouting.  At that point, I was shouting, too: "Why the hell are you yelling at me?"  (Pretty sad sight from the outside, I'm sure.) 

Anyway, he said he was yelling because I "didn't understand." 

...So I said, "So I guess that's a good reason to raise your voice and start screaming irrationally.  It will make me understand better."  (sarcasm from me...yup, it wasn't pretty).  ...But he did see my point and settle down. 

...Somehow, I get by with working him over with humor and sarcasm.  It does stop it.  I've had boyfriends in the past who would just get more mad and more mean...so I guess I'm saying that I've seen worse.  I do believe that all couples have their "moments," and that it's somewhat normal.  The questions really are: 1) How often are those moments?  2) How bad are those moments? 3) Is the rest of the relationship worth putting up with those moments? 

Oh yeah, my SO is constantly whining around about this and that ache, pain, tiredness, etc..  But he functions.  He goes to work.  He cleans the house.  He takes care of his son.  It's just sad for him that he doesn't feel well.  Unfortunately, I can't change that for him.   

...I told him a long time ago that I was done listening to somatic complaints unless he wanted to take some positive steps for his own mental and physical health.  These days, I just blow it off.  I don't argue.  I don't try to help.  I just give it an, "mmm."  Then he remembers, and he wanders off to do some chore. 

Believe it or not, I do love this guy.  He's got a lot of wonderful qualities AND he puts up with my crap, too. 

[Morphine]

Speaking as a male non - YES, we do tend to take things to the extreme when recovering from the BP world.  It's unfortunate but everyone behaves this way - it's human nature.  I don't know how long his BP relationship was or how long he was out of it before you and he got together but it is very important that he seek a therapist.

I have dated some after my divorce and did find that I was extremely intolerant of any behavior that remotely resembled what I had experienced with my BPDXW.  My reaction was to immediately bail on the relationship with little or no explanation.

While I was aware of what I was doing, I felt I had plenty of justification for behaving this way.  I was simply saying to myself "it's time to get yours".  I was so use to my X being the center of attention and selfish that I felt I deserved a bit of the same.

Therapy may or may not help him in your relationship but it will help him and that's what is really important.

It also sounds like you need to set some boundaries of your own, he's going to buck hard about that claiming you are being like a BPD but everyone needs to set their own boundaries and realize what they will and will NOT put up with in a relationship.  It always needs to be 50/50.

[Missy]

He was with his bpex for about 8 years.?  ? She cheated on him repeatedly and openly.?  ? He stayed, telling himself he had to be around to protect the kids from her.?  ? In the end, she took off and took the kids with her.?  ? His d and his step-d.?  He was devastated, and a good part of it was because he knew his daughter was with her Mom and how awful she is.?  ? When he tried to take custody, she threatened to kill him.?  ? Many times.?  ? Once he had his d for the weekend, and refused to take her back home.?  ? At that time, there was no written agreement in effect.?  ? His bpex called the police and they showed up at his house.?  ? He had to give the d over to the police or they would put his d in a foster home and him in jail - even though there was no written agreement.?  ?  Father's rights?  ?  Please?  ?  He didn't see his daughter for months after that little incident.?  ?

He gave in and just made sure he paid child support.?  ? He minimized all the crap she was pulling and tried to say she "loves" her daughter, so all would be okay.?  ? She re-engaged and manipulated him for money, used his kid against him, verbally abused everyone, and created destruction in her path.?  He kept paying his child support, and put on a big denial act, maybe it was easier for him to deal with than the truth - I don't know.?  ? I view him as a deer-in-the-headlights.?  ? The whole thing ate him up inside.?  ? His child was turned against him, and made so anxious and dependent, trying to keep her Mom from using the drugs... daughter ended up pregnant and a dropout, new grandchild in danger because of the bpex's situation and drugs.?  ? Yet daughter would NOT live with Dad, because he was the "bad guy" and every time he tried to be a parent, she would say he was "being a d*ck."?  ? End result, daughter is now back living with her bpmom, grandchild in grave danger, we don't know where she is - and we suspect she is also using drugs.?  ? Meth.?  ? D won't come over with the grandchild anymore because it makes her momster jealous and angry.?  ?  Momster wants d and granchild with her because she gets state money if they are.?  ?

How much worse can it get?  ? I don't blame him for how it turned out, in a WAY... because I know what BPD does to non-spouses and he was in no shape to fight for custody at the time she left him.?  ?  She had him beat down to nothing by that time.?  ? His BIG mistake was turning to the bottle instead of seeking help.?  ? Well, I know he went to counseling but I am sure the counselor never clued in on the whole BPD thing.

So yeah, he is angry.?  ?  I met him a year before his divorce was final, they had been separated about 2 years.?  ? He was probably between re-engagements.?  ?  I put up with a lot, with all that re-engaging... tried to tell him what I saw about how sick his ex was, and that she was no example for his daughter.?  ? On the day his divorce was final, I found him drunk and suicidal, saying "i've lost my daughter and i am a wuss..."?  ?

That' s his background, and it's not pretty.?  While on one hand I can see how the whole thing played out - and one part of me doesn't blame him for not fighting that hellion for his daughter - the other part of me has little respect for him.?  It's like "grow a pair" if you know what i mean.?  ? That creates a lot of cognitive dissonance in ME.?  ?

He would like me to retire early and go traveling with him.?  ? In short, he wants to escape himself, I believe.?  ? Well, hey, I am the only one of the two of us with any retirement or assets.?  ? I know I would be providing the bulk of HIS support while we do that, and deep down inside I dont' think he's earned that by what he's put me through.?  ? He'd also like to get custody of his grandbaby, if it comes to that, and I can't help but think - I've already raised 3 kids, who is going to support this baby?  ? Me?  ? Why?  ? I'm so ready to find out what life is like without kids at home, cripes.?  ?

I am not a selfish person, but I have worked really hard to have what I have.?  ? I've never had a man who really carried his weight.?  ? My first husband was abusive and didn't work at all (mental problems, I'm sure) and my second husband was a nice enough guy but way too gullible and so ADD he couldn't hold down a job.?  ? It wore me out, and finally I figured if I am going to do all the work, I may as well have one less kid.?  ?  I raised my 3 super-great kids basically alone, am secure with a long-term career and investments.?  ?  I have 8 years till I have 30 years in.?  ? He wants to leave in a year.?  ? That would cut my retirement by 5% a year.?  ?  I am young for my years and in great shape - and 8 years goes by fast - I won't be too old to do it in 8 years.? ?  On the other hand, he's sure he's dying soon...?  

In my view, he was so busy sucking up to his sick ex and drinking that he didn't tend to the business of planning for his future.?  ? He works hard, that's not the problem, and he's extremely intelligent and good at what he does - it's just that he spends a lot too.?  ? And he does not physically or emotionally take care of himself.?  ?  My biggest fear is that I would go travelling with him (on ship) and he would treat me so miserably that I would need to leave - and I would no longer have a job to go back to, my home would be sold, etc.?  ? Then I would be stuck.?  ? I had a nightmare about it, even.?  ? I was at sea on the boat and in my dream I was lying there and he was beating me across the face.?  ? He's never hit me, dont' get me wrong... but this dream's image has not left me... I was in a physically abusive relationship when I was young... this is one of my biggest fears.?

You know, I just need to get into some therapy myself, I think... cuz I sure feel torn between what I "want" him to be and what I see he "is".?  ?  ?

[Morphine]

I think you see the writing on the wall.  It is very hard for NONs to finally escape OZ and OZ's behaviors.  We have been subjected to it for so long that it is a monumental task for us to stop thinking BPD behaviors aren't normal.

Therapy can never hurt, it can only guide you to make some dicisions for yourself that will better your life.

[wornout]

I sure as heck wouldn't give up a big chunk of retirement money (and enjoyment, if there's a new kid involved) for this guy.  ...He doesn't sound like a really fun cruise mate.

[Missy]

I sure as heck wouldn't give up a big chunk of retirement money (and enjoyment, if there's a new kid involved) for this guy.?  ...He doesn't sound like a really fun cruise mate.

Wull, that's the gist of it, right there.?  ? I mean, I am starting to figure that if I am alone with the guy that long and unable to get away, I will soon feel like tying the anchor to my foot and throwing it overboard?  ?

He won't work on himself, won't spend the money on a T, in fact not even a doctor.?  ? But he sure has no problem spending money on boat parts and upgrades...

What's up with that?  ?

[laurena82]

He wants to leave in a year.?  ? That would cut my retirement by 5% a year.?  

Looks to me like he wants an "escape" from his problems...and looks to me like its a real losing propisition for you...DONT DO IT!

You know, I just need to get into some therapy myself, I think...

For sure, you need someone to help you see your way through this ...

My biggest fear is that I would go travelling with him (on ship) and he would treat me so miserably that I would need to leave - and I would no longer have a job to go back to, my home would be sold, etc.?  ? Then I would be stuck.?  ? I had a nightmare about it, even.

I felt an internal tightening in my stomach - my mind knew he wasn't home but my eye suddenly saw his car, and my body reacted.?  

These are REAL clear signs that the current situation is WRONG...

And he does not physically or emotionally take care of himself.

Until he starts doing this, things arent going to get better.?  And those are things that only he can "truly" initiate...he will when he's ready, but you cant keep living with all of the fallout of him not doing that...

I agree counseling for you would be a real good place to start.?  

[laurena82]

Oy:

does he realize that if he didn't pay her so much that he would have more to spend on the kids' welfare when they are with him and that they deserve to have a better living arrangement when they are with the two of you?  He is cheating them out of their life with him by giving her so much.

Yeah, this all seems to fit under the "living with a non" category...

He filed with FOC a year ago last summer to have them calculate CS, there was a paperwork glitch, and months later he found out it HADNT gotten changed to the lesser amount...and
HE DIDNT TELL ME...he continued at that point to pay the higher amount...
He tells me now that he figured UBPD xW would use decreased CS$?  for further PAS with his 22 yo daughter, who is still somewhat estranged from him, related to all the PAS from mom over past 7 years...

I didnt find out about this until this past month.?  I was NOT happy, for two reasons:

1. I voluntarily pay majority of bills here because my income is better than his,... but now feel that apparently my doing so "enabled" him to feel "OK " about going on paying high CS to woman who in turn? treats him like dirt,?  CONTINUES to alienate his kids from him...and apparently still has GREAT CONTROL over him via GUILT to keep doing so...I dont care to support this!

2.?  where is the closeness and trust in our relationship that he felt he couldnt talk with me about this?  

So, we've been having some ongoing "dialogues" about this all...

1.He did see a lawyer and tells me he decided to let lawyer file with FOC to get CS re calculated, etc...guess I'll believe it when I see it

2.He offered to be paying 1/2 of all household expenses here

Its an ongoing thing...I do appreciate your input, as it IS validating to hear what I'm thinking/feeling is valid in another's point of view as well?  

I did mention "He is cheating them out of their life with him by giving her so much." when we talked last night, and his thought on that was, well, they're only with us 4 days/month...as in its more important to pay towards their time with her I guess...?

[wornout]

2.He offered to be paying 1/2 of all household expenses here

Take him up on that offer. 

[laurena82]

 

2.He offered to be paying 1/2 of all household expenses here


Take him up on that offer.

I was already planning on presenting them to him if he didnt offer,...so I guess he smelled the coffee...?  ...and made the offer first...

[Missy]

1. I voluntarily pay majority of bills here because my income is better than his,... but now feel that apparently my doing so "enabled" him to feel "OK " about going on paying high CS to woman who in turn? treats him like dirt,?  CONTINUES to alienate his kids from him...and apparently still has GREAT CONTROL over him via GUILT to keep doing so...I dont care to support this!

2.?  where is the closeness and trust in our relationship that he felt he couldnt talk with me about this?  

Lauren, I can relate to what you are saying here.?  From watching almost the identical scenarios over the years, with my Non, I know the frustration you feel.?  ? You are right in not wanting to support this.?  ? For my non, it didn't seem to matter what I said - he didn't see how he was being manipulated until things finally got SO bad (bpex on meth, etc) that he couldn't deny it.?  ? If it makes you feel any better, I doubt he is doing it because he wants to - he's doing it to avoid her raging at him, something they seem to have a hard time with and will avoid at any cost.?  He MUST stop it, though, because he's only feeding the problem - and I could tell you some real horror stories about the results of it.?  So could my non - NOW - but at the time, he just couldn't see it.

Regarding #2, I know how upset you feel over not being told what was going on.?  ? My non also used to lie to me or not tell me when he had given her money.?  ? Or fixing her cars, or giving her used cars... whatever.?  ? It was little or no fun being his girlfriend while he was wasting all that "giving" on a shrew.?  ? He'd be worn out from her demands on him and her emotional battering, and there was really little left for me.?  ? If anything.?  He seemed helpless to stop giving to her at the time, yet it had gone on way too long and he knew it would upset me and make me mad.?  ? So, figuring he was between a rock and a hard place (two women being angry at him) he chose the wussy way out, gave her the money and didn't tell me.?  ? Or fixed her car, or sucked up to her, or whatever.?  

It made me angry then and it STILL makes me angry to think about all the ways I was excluded, lied to, hurt, made a fool of... all so he could try to make her feel like she was ok.

It's real hard to get past things like that, even when things get better later on... is your non going to counseling or anything?  ? I am starting counseling myself and trying to stop walking on eggshells enough to get my super-angry non to go to some (again) too.?  ?

[laurena82]

It's real hard to get past things like that, even when things get better later on... is your non going to counseling or anything?

Not for himself specifically,but his 16 yo son was in family counseling with him...sometimes exW took him, and sometimes S"O took him theres.?  ? We had had some issues here at my place last summer, where upon SO and I and ss were going to counseling until xW got wind of it...blew a gasket .."SHE doesnt belong there"...and called up counseling service , the counselor explained to her that he thought it was completely appropriate since SS spends time in both households, etc etc, but she blew up and "rescinded her permission" for him to have counseling there...which brought up the whole issue that UBPD x has sole legal custody of ss, so, without her permission for son to be seen there, he cant, and that is all on hold now...SO has seen a lawyer and is filing for joint legal custody, and counselor is talking with legal representative of his agency re: son being able to sign for himself.?  apparently in this state it is "murky area" of teenagers being able to sign for themselves, and of course agency wants to CYA, but counselor also got "real clear" on what "mom" was about re: the whole episode. BPD xw/mom of course meanwhile calls up SO whining about all the problems SS is in at school, ...so SO says, "oh, it sounds like SS needs to go to counseling..."...and UBPD was REAL quiet then, and ended the conversation pronto...she hasnt signed him up for any other counseling,...she just wanted to deny "us" anything we wanted...forget the fact that its detrimental to son's welfare...

but anyhow, my point was we were,in this "family counseling" setting, just starting to get into some of these issues with dad...

hopefully things will work out because this counselor was a good one for us, I think, and SS was just starting to feel good about it as well...

It's real hard to get past things like that, even when things get better later on...

Thats one thing that does concern me, as things ARE getting better, but its been so slow, and continues to be slow...and will I be resentful later on?  hopefully not...

So, figuring he was between a rock and a hard place (two women being angry at him) he chose the wussy way out, gave her the money and didn't tell me.

Mines done the exact same thing, too...I know he does it WAY less than he used to...but he still does it...and rarely is it for "her" per se...its "for the kids"...but SHE"S the one telling him that he HAS to pay this above and beyond child support, which he's already paying more than he needs to...and if he wont pay it, she tells the kids they cant have any BECAUSE DAD WONT GIVE THEM ANY MONEY and no one clarifies with them that THIS ISNT DADS RESPONSIBILITY!

A few times I couldnt bite my tongue , and I said to the 16 yo, "YOUR DAD PAYS CHILD SUPPORT TO YOUR MOM! ASK HER TO BUY YOU THE SHOES!" and felt like a heel for being so blunt...but geez...thats what its for?  then the 10 yr old looks at his dad and says incredulously, "you pay child support?"?  (he had NO CLUE that his dad paid ANYTHING to mom...)

it didn't seem to matter what I said - he didn't see how he was being manipulated

I can relate to that one, too...!

well, hopefully better days are ahead for both of us?  

Thanks for the validation!