Refusing to go back to DBT

[Think About It...]

Hey Barb

I too like the way you are approaching this with your daughter. Sounds very good to me. Keep it up girl! You are doing good!

Regarding whether or not to contact the therapist. I agree that there may be times when it is a good idea. Like a life or death situation. I don't think this is one of those times.

I am not concerned about the breach of confidentiality on the patient/therapist part, but on the mother-daughter part. If I have stepped over that line with a therapist (or doctor), they can and should tell me to take a flying leap. I would be more concerned about how daughter would perceive this contact and how it could reinforce the thought that I may believe she is incapable of handling this on her own.

IMHO, there is no reason to contact my daughter's therapist uninvited (if she had one that is) except to alert the therapist to a very real potential of loss of life/freedom.

My role in this relationship is that of parent, not co-patient or co-therapist. I believe that we need to role model boundary acceptance to our kids and that this is a tough one to do for sure, but absolutely necessary. We will not interfere in their lives and their decisions unless invited to do so. We will continue to love, accept and support them and their decisions just because they are our child and we love them. It doesn't mean we approve, just that we accept that this is their life and they are the ones that need to live it. It doesn't mean we enable their poor choices (it's ok dear that you have no money or job, you can live here the rest of your life), but that we accept that they have the ability and power to make these poor choices. We can help them make better ones, if invited to do so but may be left only with asking them what they plan to do now.

It is not our job to save them from themselves, but to support them as they acquire the tools to save themselves. It is not our job to be their therapist, but just be Mom or Dad - sometimes the only people in the world who will always accept them for who and what they are - warts and all.

Just some thoughts,

Cagey

[Cagey]

Hey Barb

I too like the way you are approaching this with your daughter. Sounds very good to me. Keep it up girl! You are doing good!

Regarding whether or not to contact the therapist. I agree that there may be times when it is a good idea. Like a life or death situation. I don't think this is one of those times.

I am not concerned about the breach of confidentiality on the patient/therapist part, but on the mother-daughter part. If I have stepped over that line with a therapist (or doctor), they can and should tell me to take a flying leap. I would be more concerned about how daughter would perceive this contact and how it could reinforce the thought that I may believe she is incapable of handling this on her own.

IMHO, there is no reason to contact my daughter's therapist uninvited (if she had one that is) except to alert the therapist to a very real potential of loss of life/freedom.

My role in this relationship is that of parent, not co-patient or co-therapist. I believe that we need to role model boundary acceptance to our kids and that this is a tough one to do for sure, but absolutely necessary. We will not interfere in their lives and their decisions unless invited to do so. We will continue to love, accept and support them and their decisions just because they are our child and we love them. It doesn't mean we approve, just that we accept that this is their life and they are the ones that need to live it. It doesn't mean we enable their poor choices (it's ok dear that you have no money or job, you can live here the rest of your life), but that we accept that they have the ability and power to make these poor choices. We can help them make better ones, if invited to do so but may be left only with asking them what they plan to do now.

It is not our job to save them from themselves, but to support them as they acquire the tools to save themselves. It is not our job to be their therapist, but just be Mom or Dad - sometimes the only people in the world who will always accept them for who and what they are - warts and all.

Just some thoughts,

Cagey

[Grandad]

Barb:
 ?  ?  My knowledge of DBT is superficial, having been gleaned entirely from discussions about DBT on this message board and a quick check of a few websites. ? I have only had a couple of opportunities to employ it, as I discovered The Nook the same week my daughter went on the streets, and I have spoken with her only a couple of times since then. ? With all of those caveats, I offer this bit of advice, and I invite any reader to please correct me if I am off base.
 ?  ?  Do not apologize for being invalidating by asking whether your daughter might be painting her therapist black. ? From all of your posts on the subject of validation, I suspect you had already validated her feelings about the therapist. ? You were very worried about a decision your daughter appeared to be making, and you raised an issue about that decision with tact. ? If you must apologize because your daughter blew up when you even raised the question of whether she might be misreading her therapist in a conversation based on her complaints, you are subject to an awful tyranny: ? you may converse with your daughter, but you may not ask her to reconsider anything she says and you must abase yourself if you inadvertently do. ?
 ?  ?  Like I said, I may be missing something here and I could be way off base because I don't really understand DBT. ? If so, I hope somebody points it out.

[Cagey]

Grandad:

I think the question you are trying to ask and answer is: Do we apologize for only trying to help?

My answer to that is yes when the intention to help results in something totally different and unintended. In Barb's case her intent was to help her daughter see what may have been happening with the therapist. The end result of that help was that her daughter felt invalidated. That was not Barb's intent and it caused her daughter pain. Her apology, if she gives one, would be for the result not the intent - for the pain she inadvertently caused her daughter not for offering help/advice.

Let me give you another real life non-BPD example from last night. My son has two jobs and he had to work both of them yesterday. He had about 3 hours between them to do some Christmas shopping. He asked a friend of the family if he could leave his stuff at their house while he worked the second job and they said sure. His second job that night was working the computer and production assistant for the live broadcast of our local Santa Parade and their would be nowhere for him to keep his stuff safe. Another mutual friend attended the parade and had parked at the first friend's house. Recognizing my son's gear they offered to take it back to their place for him to get thinking the first friend would not have to worry about it and that my son would be able to pick it up on his way home since they live closer to us. Problem was that he came back to the station where I work before going home and we then went to the first friend's house to pick up his gear when I got off because nobody told us the second friend had his stuff. This took us almost 30 minutes out of our way for nothing. This really p-offed us because now it is late and we want to get home but have to go to the second friend's place to get his gear. No-one intentionally meant to cause us grief and only wanted to help. But it did cause us grief and that is what the apology was for. Not for helping, but for causing us grief. We are over it already, but then we are not BPD and don't have the tendancy to hang onto stuff like this.

I hope this little story from my own life helps you to understand that apologizing for causing something unintentionally really is the right thing to do. At least in my experience it is and especially with my BPD daughter. It really helps her to be able to let go of the perceived slight much faster and in a much more healthy manner.

Cagey

[Barb0224]

I am struck by how eloquent and thoughtful each of your responses were (the English teacher in me).?  You were all so very careful to word your points of view.?  You have given me (and I'm sure others) much to think about in this discussion.

jr -?  You made me wonder if the book daughter is reading Get Me Out of Here isn't what has prompted her thinking about what she perceives as the inadequecies of her therapist.?  We did talk a little last night, and one of the things she told me was that the author saw her therapist for the first two years in her recovery three times a week.?  Daughter expressed that she didn't see how her present therapist could help her much in only 50 minutes a week.?  She also mentioned that her therapist has never asked her about her past.?  I was always under the impression that in discussing her past, this was just dredging up more pain and not particularly helpful.?  It was a complaint that she has had about past therapists.?  So her point about this is interesting.?  I'm not sure what to think about it. . . It just sounds to me as if she wants an individual therapist who will work more intensively with her.?  She is talking about finding another one in lieu of DBT, one who can commit to her that intensively.?  I frankly am stumped about how she will find one, and I am VERY anxious that she is adamantly sticking to her decision that DBT is not for her, but I tried to be supportive and to reinforce that she knows best what she needs.

Cagey - Your words are very wise, ones I do always struggle with. . . and I know in my heart that you are right:

We will not interfere in their lives and their decisions unless invited to do so. . .?  It doesn't mean we approve, just that we accept that this is their life and they are the ones that need to live it. It doesn't mean we enable their poor choices . .?  but that we accept that they have the ability and power to make these poor choices. . . It is not our job to save them from themselves, but to support them as they acquire the tools to save themselves.

I can see that my daughter is moving forward in this journey toward wellness, because there was a point a few months back when she just could not make decisions, period;?  I know at that time I was trying to save her from herself because it was a life and death matter.?  Now that she is more well, she is insisting on making her own decisions.?  I must not only recognize that, but applaud in my heart that she is well enough to want to take charge.?  She is not making decisions that are destructive (in her mind); she is thinking them through carefully.?  Although this is not the path that I would like to see her take (my fears are that this is impulsive because of a book she read), I must be accepting; I should be rejoicing that she feels the power within herself to make change.?  

Grandad - I so hear you on this:

If you must apologize because your daughter blew up when you even raised the question of whether she might be misreading her therapist in a conversation based on her complaints, you are subject to an awful tyranny:?  you may converse with your daughter, but you may not ask her to reconsider anything she says and you must abase yourself if you inadvertently do.

My husband and I talked about this very thing.?  This illness does subject us to a feeling of awful tyranny.?  That was a good way to put it.?  I sure hope that some day we can talk to daughter about what she says and the impact it has on others.?  I sure hope that some day we can have a normal discussion without having to worry about every word we say.?  God, that is our hope as parents.?  Maybe when she gets well, our lives will improve too.?  Right now we are all under so much stress all the time that we are having trouble enjoying life.?  

With that said, however, I have to keep ramming it in my head that the above is my problem, not my daughter's.?  

I soooo understand what you mean about that apology feeling as though I am abasing myself. . . when my intensions were pure and probably right.?  But as Cagey pointed out, the apology is not for what I was trying to do but for the pain she felt.?  

I am so sorry that this illness causes her to feel pain so intensely.?  ?

((I am so glad that I have you guys.?  You help me to bear my own pain.))

Barb

[JR]

I think it's a huge positive sign that your daughter is still reading Rachel Reiland's story. From what I got from the book, the author relays a whole bunch of her own ups n' downs with her therapist throughout her story of recovery, and yet attributes much of her success to her therapist's adamancy and diligence.

Uh oh. It didn't occur to me that the patient/therapist relationship in that book would be perceived as a specific standard to be shadowed. hmmm...

Does your daughter relate that closely with the author? I didn't read the book cover to cover, but I think Reiland was a wife and mother at the time of her treatment... Not that that makes a whit of difference, except that there are differences between her and your daughter, even beyond their life circumstances, so there would also differences be in the therapists' approach.

I sound like I'm arguing with myself, don't I. :P


Perhaps there is still a way to encourage your daughter to bring up all that is going through her mind - her dissatisfaction with the last session, the notion that DBT is not for her, the comparisons she's finding in the book, etc - with her therapist, at least one last time.

hang in there, (( Barb )),
~ jr

[Oy-vey!]

I don't know much about DBT - but I do know about conflict-resolution with my own therapist.

When I first was sharing with my T the story about my relationship with a BPD, she completely discounted my experience.  I was stunned and feeling VERY uncomfortable about the relationship.

I called another T in the practice that I know and told her about my experience.  The 2nd T told me to call my therapist and tell her exactly how I felt.  Scary stuff. 

Is there any way you can encourage your daughter to speak directly to the T and explain to the T what your DD is feeling?  This might be too much for your daughter to handle, but it is a normal and healthy way to handle conflict / disagreement.

Good luck to you both!

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[Barb0224]

Thanks, Oy-Vey.  It is good advice.  However, I think right now it might be too late.

Daughter called the head of DBT yesterday and told her that she was pulling out of the program.  It sounds like this woman gave daughter many options; i.e. a different therapist? a different psychiatrist?  But daughter was adamant.

Daughter is now home with us. . . saying she can't live in her apartment, she is not able to sleep, she hates it there. 

We are so stumped about all of this, and, of course devastated. 

Previously when she was in that very dark place, we had a goal - getting her into DBT.  Now, we just don't know what the goal is.

More complications:  We, of course, have been paying for her apartment in the city so that she could be a resident of the county which has this DBT program (a requirement).  Her lease isn't up until Feb.  And, if she moves home, she will probably lose not only county assistance (which isn't much) but more importantly MA.  That is the critical part.

No word yet from social security on her application from this summer.

Not only that, but if she moves home, I'm not sure if my own personal sanity can take it. As I said in another post, I'm hanging by a thread, here.

((Hugs to all of you for your advice and for caring))

We can do this, right?

Barb

[PB3]

Oh, Barb, I really feel for you.  I'm sure you were hoping your D. would see the light and return to DBT this week.  You must be a wreck, especially since you put so much energy and effort into helping her meet all the criteria so she would be accepted into the DBT program.  And now, after all that, she has pulled out and wants to come home to live---augh.   You must feel pretty hopeless right now.  There has to be a light at the end of your tunnel--you just can't see it yet.  I don't have any words of wisdom for you, except to take care of you as best you can!  Know that you have many friends out here in cyberspace who care about you and are pulling for you.  Hang in there!

PB

[JR]

Dear Barb,
At this point 'things' are changing, and I think I would re-evaluate the tack I take with my child; so I'm going to throw out some thoughts I've re-evaluated in light of what's happening with you...

...the book daughter is reading Get Me Out of Here ...the author saw her therapist for the first two years in her recovery three times a week.?  Daughter expressed that she didn't see how her present therapist could help her much in only 50 minutes a week.?  

. . . It just sounds to me as if she wants an individual therapist who will work more intensively with her.?  She is talking about finding another one in lieu of DBT, one who can commit to her that intensively.

Has your daughter initiated this Plan B [more intense therapy as per the book]?, or only ditched Plan A [current set-up with DBT].

I think people who have BPD [generally make fear-based decisions] tend to 'run from' a situation without knowing or having something to 'run to'. Sure, they may *think* whatever is Out There will be better, will make them feel better. Sometimes it is true, like in a case of an abusive relationship or an incompetent or clueless counselor. But, the fact is that's not necessarily true, especially when a decision is based upon a feeling that things aren't moving along at a pace that isn't 'quick enough' for the individual. (Can we spell 'impulsivity'?)

Does your daughter feel this therapist is/was 'harming' her? ...or hampering her recovery? Or were things just not moving at a pace Daughter felt comfortable with.

I can see that my daughter is moving forward in this journey toward wellness, because there was a point a few months back when she just could not make decisions, period;?  I know at that time I was trying to save her from herself because it was a life and death matter.?  

Now that she is more well, she is insisting on making her own decisions.?  I must not only recognize that, but applaud in my heart that she is well enough to want to take charge.?  She is not making decisions that are destructive (in her mind); she is thinking them through carefully.?  Although this is not the path that I would like to see her take (my fears are that this is impulsive because of a book she read), I must be accepting; I should be rejoicing that she feels the power within herself to make change.

Yes, I agree that making a move one way or the other is a huge step from where your daughter was a few months ago - something to acknowledge, appreciate, and commend. But. Although she is thinking them through - and I think it's so great she called the program director instead of just not showing up - her decision(s) are still hampered by those BPD symptoms... lack of foresight, 'running from' rather than 'running to', wanting things 'right away', seemingly unaware of results of her actions (the apartment and medical assistance, for instance). :-\

Seeing how things are apparently sliding back into the old status quo (if she has not taken positive and diligent moves in finding another therapist), I refer back to [how I interpretted] Grandad's input in a general sense... You and your husband are the healthier party in this; it is up to the two of you to keep whatever goes on in your home and the assistance you extend to your child/ren at a productive level. Without even addressing the effects of your daughter's recent choices on your son and the two of you... would going along with these choices benefit *her* in the long run?

I don't know the answer to that. But, I encourage you to try to break stuff down into bite size chunks to find whatever options are yours, as your daughter's parent, and define some perimeters that we have to create simply by virtue of our obligation as parents.

Validating her feelings and commending her decision-making power does not have to be replaced, but, imho, can go hand in hand with "I see why you feel you have to do [this], Daughter; I hope you can see why I feel [this way (but not 'disappointed'!)]. Your decisions require modification of our arrangement on my part."


still thinking... 'bout ((you)), and the frightening prospects you must feel you're facing,
~ jr

[mllepuma]

More complications:  We, of course, have been paying for her apartment in the city so that she could be a resident of the county which has this DBT program (a requirement).  Her lease isn't up until Feb.  And, if she moves home, she will probably lose not only county assistance (which isn't much) but more importantly MA.  That is the critical part.

No word yet from social security on her application from this summer.

What an awful spot to be in ((Barb)).  I'm at a loss for words that would make you feel "comfort". 

I do have a few ideas about some of the "complications".  Do you think it would do some good to talk to the landlord and explain the situation?  Sometimes, you can be surprised where you'll find compassion.  I rent my house to students and if one of them had a parent that was ill, they were ill themselves or their was a crisis going on that meant they had to leave the area, I would let them out of their lease. 

Another thing I thought of was would your girl consider moving into an apartment that is closer to you?  It would probably mean that she would have to reapply for MA and there is probably some kind of waiting time before it becomes effective so there would be very little lapse of coverage.  Even if she had to be home for awhile, I don't know that it necessarily means that she wouldn't qualify for MA.

Regarding SSI, my sister got an attorney to represent her so that she would get it.  I know it was a long process and I'm not sure at what time she decided an attorney might be a good idea.  Anyhow, a lot of attorneys don't charge for the first visit and maybe they could help you get your feet pointed in the right direction on how your girl can get the benefits that she needs. 

((Barb))...I care, okay?

Puma

[Grandad]

Not only that, but if she moves home, I'm not sure if my own personal sanity can take it. As I said in another post, I'm hanging by a thread, here.
We can do this, right?
Barb

Barb:  I feel so sad for you.  You invested so much effort into setting up an opportunity for your daughter to stop her downward spiral and cajoling her into giving it a try.  Your daughter, like Lucy in the Peanuts comic strip, pulled away the football at the last second again.  I have been there many times.  My daughter's serious symptoms started around age 12 and she is about to turn 27.  She never grew up emotionally.  We made stenuous efforts to help, only to have her undermine us every time.
I do not know how to cure someone who really doesn't want to be cured.  Your daughter is so dysfunctional that she is ruining her own life and the lives of the people who care for her most.  Yet, we live in a free society and she is legally an adult - you can't have her kidnapped and deprogrammed, even though it sure sounds like she needs to be in a complete 24 hour theraputic environment for awhile.
I offer this observation.  If she moves back in with you without a change in her mental and emotional condition, you and your husband will find your life in permanent turmoil, and you still won't be able to help her.  At the risk of sounding like a cold hearted fellow, which I am not, you should tell your daughter that you paid for an apartment for her and she can either live there or find herself other living accomadations.  It sounds like tough love, and it won't solve your daughter's problems, but if you don't get some respite from the whirlwind you are in, you will be torn apart by it.
Barb:  I can tell by your posts that you are a very loving, giving person.  If you do not pull back a little from this, I fear you will lose the capacity to give to those who care about you.  I am praying for you.

[edgie33]

barb, i just wanted to let you know i'm thinking of you. you've always been so helpful to me, i wish i knew how to help you now.   best wishes, edgie

[JR]

How are you?

[counter]

Barb,

I read your post and that one only and am scrolling down to respond. I have no idea of the discussion thats has followed your initial post. I do want to point this out. Your daughter was in a tender moment there pouring her heart out feeling remorse. It was very important to stay with her let her digest it and validate her on what she was bringing up right then . I think your pointing to her difficulty with not being heard by T and T pushing her  as painting her black in itself is a good leap to make butthe timming kinda  was off I believe. You jumped in  too soon? pushed her too much. just look at what she was doing that night, She was up  reading a difficult life story of someone who was being very real something not often experienced by another BPD one on one together . Wow that she was making connections was absolutely miraculous and very hopeful and I would be beside myself and would just sit and listen in awe of what your daughter was doing.. ON HER OWN I may point out . its important that an idividual make thier own discoceries. THose are the ones that stick .changing  subjects mid stream is a manipulation too. you were trying to get your needs met and was pushing.by making that leap to soon it would have been better to just stay with what she was discovering which was VERY impoortant in my book and she was feeling shame and remorse which is the touch stone for change.  she needs you to listen?  really listen  in the moment. I think she flew into a rage because she was not feeling heard. I will say that its not easy to know the sensitivities the hyper drive BPDs have they are like watchful hawks for any minute twist or turn that smells like invalidation.  itsa tough call to be validating yet tough at the same time so someone doesn't bolt. aproach leaping a bit later like the following day . I hope this helps. i know it sounds like yet again walking on egg shells . at least its positive eggs shells and they will eventually not be there at all once she finds her own wings.

take care,

Counter

[Barb0224]

Thank you all again for your input.  I can feel the love and the caring, and it really does my heart good.

Counter, you were so right about what you said regarding my comments to my daughter being the wrong time.  You are so right that I should have just sat and listened in awe.  She definitely was making miraculous connections.

Going back to this DBT program seems out of the question right now, and daughter is home with us, but things right now are looking very positive. 

Let me share a story. . .

On Thursday evening at the supper table, daughter sensed that I was very stressed out and sad.  I had had a bad day at work, and as usual I don't talk very much about my own bad days at home, mostly because I usually feel that I don't want to burden anyone when they are already burdened by their own issues.  Daughter asked me how I was and said that she could tell I was feeling stressed.  She asked me what my biggest stressor was in my life.  At first I tried to divert the conversation to avoid talking about me, but daughter persisted.  She said that when we are feeling bad we need to talk about it, and that that is the trouble in our family. . . we always stuff our emotions to try not to hurt others.

Then she said a very remarkable thing.  She said, "I know that the reason everyone around here stuffs their emotions is because of me.  They are tiptoeing around me, trying not to make me feel bad.  But when you do that, it makes me feel worse.  I want you to quit trying to stuff your emotions and take a risk by telling me how you are feeling."

Then she asked me again, "Mom, what is the thing that causes the most stress in your life?"

I tried to say that I am stressed by school and by kids who are sometimes disrespectful.

But she kept at it.  She said, "Mom, I know that that is stressful for you, but you did not say that it was the biggest stress.  Why are you avoiding the subject?"

Finally, after a few tries, I knew what she was getting at.  So I told her the truth, "I guess my biggest stress is being disrespected by everyone in my life.  Kids at school.  The way people talk to each other in this home.  Disrespect is my biggest stress."

She said, "Thank you for being honest, Mom."!

Then she went on to tell us that she needs us all to talk about our feelings more, and when she is feeling bad, that even when she says "I don't want to talk about it" that she really does and she needs us to keep prodding her just like she prodded me.

She said, "It makes me feel so invalidated to be ignored when I am feeling bad, and I think everyone in this house feels the same way."

Wow, she was sooooo perceptive, sooooo mature, soooooo honest.  We were blown away by this conversation.  We talked for a couple of hours.  She shared many things that were on her mind in a gentle, non-judgmental way.

I don't have any idea where we're headed in this journey, but I do know from that conversation that daughter got a lot out of the four months of DBT that she did have.  Since that conversation our home atmosphere has felt normal and peaceful. 

I have lots more to tell all of you, but I have to run.  I just wanted to squeeze this in.

Thanks so much for your support.

Barb

[counter]

Hi Barb,,


What wonderful news and so hopeful. I love reading about breack throughs bieng made by those with BPD and thier friends and familys. I was thinking about how closely linked invaladation and abandonment feelings can be and disrespect is right in there with the other two they eem to interconnect. I struggle at times when others dissagre with what i think and feel and can get caught up  in feeling invalidated discounted and disrespected .  Though your daughter may struggle with a higher degree of sensitivity to those?  and has more difficulty processing them than say a non does, it will help her to know others have the same difficulty and that they have to manuver?  in and around and through them.. and can look for how you deal with those feelings. How neat . !

Counter