"Everybody is Crazy"

[Think About It...]

This is my first post here, although I joined BPDFamily because of co-parenting concerns. But I've mostly posted on Unchosen, and I'm working very hard on dealing with the damage wrought by my own UBPM. But I read this board frequently, and have learned a great deal from it.

My other BP (drives a broom) is SO's ex-wife. She is internet savvy and quite the amateur diagnostician (in the latest custody study, it is stated that she has attributed no less than three personality disorders to SO, all of which come glaringly under the pot, kettle, black rubric) I have shied away from this board because frankly I am concerned she may read my posts.

Things are hard enough, and I do not want to make them worse.

However, the time has come to ask you for some of your collective wisdom.

This BPex-W is a diagnosed BPD. She was committed. For some reason this reality has been minimized by the judge, and because (in typical BP fashion) she so passionately-- yet baselessly-- claimed that SO was NPD (etc), the judge essentially concluded that all parties have a couple screws loose, and awarded her custody.

As a child of a BPDM, a grown professional woman still climbing out from under the psychological wreckage caused by my mother, I must confess that I am baffled to learn that BPD could be discounted and appears to be considered a mere eccentrity in family court.

Furthermore, the equalization that I am observing is preposterous. SO presents custody evaluator with a formal BPD diagnosis of BPxw. BPXW claims (without evidence or a single anecdotal example) that SO is personality disordered. Rather than conclude that this may in fact be consistent with BPD behavior (which it is), the evaluator states that BOTH PARTIES "believe" the other to have personality disorders. That simple! Both claims qualitatively equal! How is this possible?

This is not the first time SO is in court. He is very bravely fighting for his children. He is very serious, and rational to a fault. BPexW is disorganized, unemployed, entitled, subject to rages, and pathologically inclined to tailor her accounts of reality to fit her apparent desire to rewrite history, and cast herself in the role of victim.
 
Distressingly, she appears to be the most persuasive of the two.

At this juncture, I have the impression that even SO's lawyer has tired of the BPD argument, as it has been "unsuccessful" in the past.

As a child of a BP, I am in shock. BPexW has started diagnosing the children as well, hammering them with charges that they (children!) are narcissists, psychotic, and brain-damaged.

I realize that this is turning into a bit of a rant.

I wonder if anyone here has had similar experiences with equalization between a real BPD dx and fictitious charges formulated by the BPex. Any strategies or advice?

I appreciate any help you can send along.

Discovery

[soccerstepmom]

This is my first post here, although I joined BPDFamily because of co-parenting concerns. But I've mostly posted on Unchosen, and I'm working very hard on dealing with the damage wrought by my own UBPM. But I read this board frequently, and have learned a great deal from it.

My other BP (drives a broom) is SO's ex-wife. She is internet savvy and quite the amateur diagnostician (in the latest custody study, it is stated that she has attributed no less than three personality disorders to SO, all of which come glaringly under the pot, kettle, black rubric) I have shied away from this board because frankly I am concerned she may read my posts.

Things are hard enough, and I do not want to make them worse.

However, the time has come to ask you for some of your collective wisdom.

This BPex-W is a diagnosed BPD. She was committed. For some reason this reality has been minimized by the judge, and because (in typical BP fashion) she so passionately-- yet baselessly-- claimed that SO was NPD (etc), the judge essentially concluded that all parties have a couple screws loose, and awarded her custody.

As a child of a BPDM, a grown professional woman still climbing out from under the psychological wreckage caused by my mother, I must confess that I am baffled to learn that BPD could be discounted and appears to be considered a mere eccentrity in family court.

Furthermore, the equalization that I am observing is preposterous. SO presents custody evaluator with a formal BPD diagnosis of BPxw. BPXW claims (without evidence or a single anecdotal example) that SO is personality disordered. Rather than conclude that this may in fact be consistent with BPD behavior (which it is), the evaluator states that BOTH PARTIES "believe" the other to have personality disorders. That simple! Both claims qualitatively equal! How is this possible?

This is not the first time SO is in court. He is very bravely fighting for his children. He is very serious, and rational to a fault. BPexW is disorganized, unemployed, entitled, subject to rages, and pathologically inclined to tailor her accounts of reality to fit her apparent desire to rewrite history, and cast herself in the role of victim.
 
Distressingly, she appears to be the most persuasive of the two.

At this juncture, I have the impression that even SO's lawyer has tired of the BPD argument, as it has been "unsuccessful" in the past.

As a child of a BP, I am in shock. BPexW has started diagnosing the children as well, hammering them with charges that they (children!) are narcissists, psychotic, and brain-damaged.

I realize that this is turning into a bit of a rant.

I wonder if anyone here has had similar experiences with equalization between a real BPD dx and fictitious charges formulated by the BPex. Any strategies or advice?

I appreciate any help you can send along.

Discovery

[bewildered]

I wish I could help - but for the most part, courts/attorneys have NO understanding of BPD (In my own case, I was fortunate to have had a psychologist who talked to a person my BPDex had seen and after interviewing her, concluded that she did have a "personality" disorder) - It helped that my BPDex behaved erratically IN court and the Judge agreed with the assessment of a "personality" disorder. 

In a divorce, if one party comes across as completely "normal" that is abnormal to me.  I mean, what the h%^*?  My BPDex claimed I had an "anger" problem (Yea, well - what do you expect me to do when you abuse me financially, emotionally and all that? - I am no Saint)

The issue is really to see what the lives of each are (beyond the immediate) and factor OUT the stress of the divorce - I was fortunate in that I had several collateral letters of support PLUS I had had a long marriage (widowed) prior to this nightmare and so my BPDex had little credibility, while my past helped me.  It was impossible for my BPDex to have people ignore the fact that I was the change of circumstance for her - She had lost custody of two of her kids from a previous marriage and had supervised visitation, I helped change that - PLUS her first ex- was a witness for ME (he was never called, but he did speak with evaluator)

So all in all - it depends.  I would NOT give up on the idea of trying to convince the court(s) about BPD behavior.

[Snaps]

Just a "me too" here, Discovery.

We have documents from the court social worker stating that my ex "believes Snaps may be bipolar," with no corroborating evidence. Now she's not diagnosed BPD, and honestly I don't know that she really is anything more than clingy and messed up in a BPDish sort of way, but there is nothing in the files that suggests she has a screw loose. Very frustrating.

So I hear you.

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[John Galt]

Discovery,

You and I have writen lots to eachother and always it is you offering me advice so hopefully I can TRY to help a little bit.

First in court,as my lawyer told me 2 weeks ago,a psychiatrist trumps all,and that includes social workers,childrens aid,therapists etc.

Is there a way of getting your SO exwifes doctor in court?Well worth the money if you ask me.It is difficult somtimes but very important.A judge is for obvious selfish reasons very interested in their own career,and if a psychiatrist tells all of her details during her committed period it could help,obviously depending on the details.
A judge must be shown the risk /reward scenerio,and esp. the risk part of how this BPD mother will hurt her kids,in one form or another.
My lawyer and I will present the case that we will be ''requesting a pyschological assessment'' on my BPD wife and myself.This is key,and a very important strategy for me.The same doctor-neutral- examining both of us.
A judge only has to read this report to ''figure it out''.

Marc

As per lots of my questions over at unchosen,this is the reason I wait.

Stupid judges in stupid courts making stupid decisions in the lives of our children.

I prey for you discovery,
Marc

[John Galt]

Discovery,

I posted this a few weeks back in divorce,and obviously most points will not help you,but maybe points # 2,3 and 7 could be of some interest to you.

Also,not to offend anyone but is this lawyer the best or is a second opinion something that could help.I am a very very huge believer in second and third opinions.
Marc







Dear Comrades in arms:

Spoke with 1 of my lawyers today and here is the deal in my situation in regards to my goal of full custody with supervised visitation for BPDwife.

This is in a Canadian court ,in Ontario so take what you want and leave the rest.

1.My lawyer said she does not want video/audio tapes.She said most family judges will see this as very contrived.She would not even listen to the tapes herself.

2. A journal is so so so important,and it should be hand written(someone here once wondered if computer printed ,or hand writen is better or worse).She will take my hand written journal and then have it transcribed.This is very important she said and only the important stuff should be journaled.

3.A list of people who would be able to write affidavits for you.Coaches of soccer teams,ballet teachers,etc.

4.When the BPD spouse rages,we should try to remove the kids from the scene and document where we took them ie your moms house,hotel,movies etc.Document when ,where and who saw you.

5.Best case scenerio is to leave during a crisis be it an institutionalized period for the BPD,or if they just up and leave for a few days or whatever.This would be the ideal.

6.She said that she will ask the court(during an emergency session) for full custody.That will be granted and then we backfill with all of our information.

7.She said charts are very effective to show a judge hospitalizations,jail time,up and leave moments etc.

8.Us nons will be asked why we waited so long if things were that bad and if we were that scared.An answer to this question is very important,so beware.

[soccerstepmom]

Thank you very much for your advice.

It has helped me think of new strategies ahead of the upcoming hearing. (I wish I could reveal more, and hopefully I will)

Thanks, Marc. How's it going?

I know my SO's efforts-- just the efforts, even without success-- keep his childrens' spirits buoyed. They know they have a father fighting for them, and that is very validating. They need that, and sadly I understand that in a rather powerful way.

Courage to you all. As a child of a BPDM and one who loves a Non, and in for the duration, I think very highly of the strength, determination, lucidity and amazingly healthy humor I read here.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Discovery

[wornout]

Unfortunately (and understandably), judges are not trained in psychology/psychiatry.  Their role is to be fair and impartial while hearing the accusations of two parties in conflict.  This puts everyone under suspicion, from the judge's point of view. 

I even heard from a lawyer once that he felt that anyone who went court was guilty; they were party to a conflict, and were therefore guilty; the judge's role was only to determine who was more or less guilty, in his opinion.  ...In a twisted way, it does make sense.  Those of us who are stupid and stubborn enough to try with a BPD are guilty...of stupidity, and maybe even have some issues ourselves if we can't tear away before marriages are sealed and children are conceived. 

...Of course that's not very comforting or helpful to know in your situation.  ...So I'm thinking that the expert testimony of the psych would really be worth it.  That's an outsider saying that there really is a pesonality disorder.  Also, the psych can attest to the fact that this particular disorder is pretty intense and far-reaching. 

I think alot of folks, including judges, see the personality disordered/neurotics on TV as basically nice people who have a specific problem.  They don't get how some personality disorders infect and invade every life experience and interaction.  A psych might help with that explanation.

[sphireblue1]

In my experience, in the NY courts they do not understand what BPD is! I have had a Law guardian for my children say to me " Oh its just a personality disorder, many people have it" hmm, maybe she should live with one to truely understand.

[John Galt]

You guys are correct about your points although it really irks me because judges should deal with evidence,at least in the United States and even sometimes here in Canada.Maybe in Iraq,Cuba and North Korea this would be an acceptable practice but in these courts that we discuss?

When these judges are suppose to look at evidence,and don't it just drives me frigging insane(pun very intended)!


Just a few days ago  I read about this decision of this guy who rapes a woman,and gets off due to his defense of  ''Sexsomnia'' claiming he was sleep walking.

What kind of a world are we headed towards,opps,or already at?

Marc