help me frame an ultimatum to uBPDH

[Think About It...]

I wont repeat my story.. I post pretty frequently.

For a few weeks now I have been sitting on the fence--deliberately and consciously.  I have been enjoying the good time with m uBPDH (and there have been some).  I have been holding pretty firm to my boundaries on meanness and anger to me me and the kids (not 100% but pretty well) with resultant withdrawals from my H and some blaming, but probably less meanness. 

I have NOT been setting boundaries on his near-constant focus on HIM.  Either the self-aggrandizement or the negativity about others (Unless it is me or the kids).  I can only fight so many battles at once.

He is better with the kids.  They have had some true quality time.  He does a lot around the house -- cooking, working.  He even attended a school event (first one in a while). 

He is still drinking occasioanally.  I have called him on it three times in teh last tow months. The first two times he raged. The last time--this weekend-- he denied  (a lie). He doesnt think it is a problem. It is. He drinks alone in secret.  He IS drinking less and his behavior is less bad.. but it is a problem.

If I were to take any SINGLE thing he does, it would be excusable, forgiveable and forgettable.  We all rant or insult once in a while (but not to the degree of meanness and the frequency).  and more importantly he doesnt take responsibility for his actions--whihc is my number one problem with him as a parent right now. 

He doesnt rage much. He is never physically violent. He has a good job.

He has gotten better. He says he is happy where he is. He says he is satisfied with where we are. I am not.  This is not a status quo that is acceptable to me

So my quandary-- how can I create an ultimatum that means anything? I know, people will say, tell him ot seek therapy--

For what?  He is undiagnosed.  I cant tell him to seek therapy to be nice or grow up or take responsibilty.

He quit MT and frankly at this point I am not interested in returning with him.

I cant tell him to stop drinking --tried that and he just gets more secretive... and he is not a daily drinker or a raging drinker these days.

 What is an ultimatum with teeth that doesnt put me in the position of therapist or watchdo?  (I cant and wont do that)..

 Please help me fill in the blank: Either you _____ or I will file for divorce. Something concrete, objective and reasonable.

JOannak has said previously that sometime there is simply too much water under the bridge for a relationship to recover and that may be the case.. but I am really interested in other ideas before I start down that path given that there has been some progress.

Thanks,

CRystal

(or maybe I need to embrace the progress and give it more time?)

[crystal]

I wont repeat my story.. I post pretty frequently.

For a few weeks now I have been sitting on the fence--deliberately and consciously.  I have been enjoying the good time with m uBPDH (and there have been some).  I have been holding pretty firm to my boundaries on meanness and anger to me me and the kids (not 100% but pretty well) with resultant withdrawals from my H and some blaming, but probably less meanness. 

I have NOT been setting boundaries on his near-constant focus on HIM.  Either the self-aggrandizement or the negativity about others (Unless it is me or the kids).  I can only fight so many battles at once.

He is better with the kids.  They have had some true quality time.  He does a lot around the house -- cooking, working.  He even attended a school event (first one in a while). 

He is still drinking occasioanally.  I have called him on it three times in teh last tow months. The first two times he raged. The last time--this weekend-- he denied  (a lie). He doesnt think it is a problem. It is. He drinks alone in secret.  He IS drinking less and his behavior is less bad.. but it is a problem.

If I were to take any SINGLE thing he does, it would be excusable, forgiveable and forgettable.  We all rant or insult once in a while (but not to the degree of meanness and the frequency).  and more importantly he doesnt take responsibility for his actions--whihc is my number one problem with him as a parent right now. 

He doesnt rage much. He is never physically violent. He has a good job.

He has gotten better. He says he is happy where he is. He says he is satisfied with where we are. I am not.  This is not a status quo that is acceptable to me

So my quandary-- how can I create an ultimatum that means anything? I know, people will say, tell him ot seek therapy--

For what?  He is undiagnosed.  I cant tell him to seek therapy to be nice or grow up or take responsibilty.

He quit MT and frankly at this point I am not interested in returning with him.

I cant tell him to stop drinking --tried that and he just gets more secretive... and he is not a daily drinker or a raging drinker these days.

 What is an ultimatum with teeth that doesnt put me in the position of therapist or watchdo?  (I cant and wont do that)..

 Please help me fill in the blank: Either you _____ or I will file for divorce. Something concrete, objective and reasonable.

JOannak has said previously that sometime there is simply too much water under the bridge for a relationship to recover and that may be the case.. but I am really interested in other ideas before I start down that path given that there has been some progress.

Thanks,

CRystal

(or maybe I need to embrace the progress and give it more time?)

[istayed]

Hi Crystal,

You gave a lot of info--good and bad. As you said, there's no one thing that, taken alone, is a deal-breaker for you. Sounds like he may be trying to do better.

But then you said:

He quit MT and frankly at this point I am not interested in returning with him.

Why aren't you interested? Was it just pointless because he didn't want to be there? Was the therapy not getting to any of the issues you felt were important?

Or maybe it's just as JK said--that there's too much water under the bridge for the relationship to recover. Maybe you've gone past the point of caring about improving the relationship through MT or anything else. If you examine the reason you wrote "I am not interested in returning [to MT] with him," I believe you may come up with some answers.

Or maybe not--anyhow, this decision stuff is tough...but then so is fence-sitting.

Best wishes to you,
spam

[been there]

   Hi crystal.

   Spam ask's a very good question, about why you won't go to MT with him.

   Yes, there could be to much water under the bridge, but in your writing you don't seem to be there (yet)?

   Tina was undx'ed when I gave her my ultimatum. It was to get help, or the kids and I were gone. It wasn't a resourse, I was literally at my end of trying. Are you at that point?

   IMO, pick a particular behavior that is intolerable and make it your focus on getting into T, whether it be drinking, rage's, lie's, or whatever.

   Mark

   

[crystal]

Span and Mark,

When we went to MT it was awful.  He felt threatened by the whole thing. He felt the T and I ganged up on him to prove he was wrong or had done wrong (and he cant be wrong). We didnt. The T was really very good.  H would always pick a fight after the sessions --although he said I was the one who picked them.  He felt all the focus was on him (not true, except he would turn it on himself even if the T was talking about me--I think my H is NPD as well as BPD-- both MT and my T think mild NPD is at play as well).  He quit once,  and I persuaded him to go back-- and he is NEVER going back again. To that therapist or any other MT. When we talked about his feelings about T she suggested we try someone else...NO go. He is not interested. 

He has said he is done working on him and all his Ts over the years (and there have been a few) were a waste of money and just screwed things up.. He has made a lot of progress and he is good with where he is.   He is done working on us with T and we just need to go back to "being" . We are good enough in his opinion.  He feels that T has made things worse between us. He says MY going to T has made things worse between us (true-- I stand up for myself and the kids and call him on his s**t  now and I didnt used to-- he doesnt like that. If fact he has said. "You used to be so insecure-- now you have such confidence -- you were easier to be with when you were insecure and only I knew how great you were).

So, I personally think he needs to work on him (and I need to keep working on me) before we can work on us and I cant see him going back to MT for a long while.



Spam--You ask the critical question: here is the bottom line (I think)...He has done and said too many really mean things (Not violent but really mean, petty, hurtful things) without taking true responsibilty for them that I am not interested in forgiving in what seems like an endless cycle.   He has lied to me about things that are important to me (As recently as this weekend about drinking) and honesty is a really core value to me.

Bottom, bottom line:I dont trust him.  I dont want to be open to him and further hurts.  And maybe that is harsh because he has made progress... (My T doesnt think I am being harsh) But that is how I feel and it is not a mindset that will work for MT. 

-crystal

[FeelingStuck]

Bottom, bottom line:I dont trust him.  I dont want to be open to him and further hurts.  And maybe that is harsh because he has made progress

Crystal,

You described much of my situation, although we haven't been using therapists (uBPDh refuses). After having had it with all of the many components that together make up this disorder, finding out about BPD and trying some of the recommendations from this site, uBPDh has cut back somewhat on certain bad behaviors. I insist that he cut it out with me and the kids, and as long as I am always hovering nearby, he behaves more (but not as much as he really should).

But this is not really a solution; it's more of a cease fire and I am wrestling with what to do next. I am thinking that there is too much water under the bridge for this marriage to recover and go anywhere. I'm caught between spending a few more years in a now mostly just-tolerable situation where the kids are probably protected enough, and beginning to understand that he is disordered (not them), to divorcing and having a few years of the kids adjusting to that. Sorry I'm not much help for your original question, but your uBPDh seemed similar to mine in some ways.

[crystal]

But this is not really a solution; it's more of a cease fire and I am wrestling with what to do next. I am thinking that there is too much water under the bridge for this marriage to recover and go anywhere

Feelingstuck-- the cease fire is a great analogy for where I think I am. There are still land mines, and occasional grenades lobbed for no reason.  The boundaries MUST be maintained or they get overrun.  It is tolerable. It is MUCH better than 6 months ago. It is not peace. It is not a full life. 

Crystal

[optimistic]

The cease fire is a great analogy for where I think I am. There are still land mines, and occasional grenades lobbed for no reason.  The boundaries MUST be maintained or they get overrun.  It is tolerable. It is MUCH better than 6 months ago. It is not peace. It is not a full life. 

Wow, Crystal and FeelingStuck, this does make an excellent analogy for those of us who are committed but wavering.  It gives me a new way to look at it.  Hmmmmm...

[FeelingStuck]

Optimistic,

"Wavering" is a good way to describe this state, too. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will never have the type of relationship with him that I had hoped for. Even if he starts to work on himself today (in reality, hardly a chance), he is still mentally about 13 years old, and I am mentally 40ish, and that 27 year differential will always be there. If he mentally becomes a 20 year old in seven years, and I am now mentally an upper 40ish in seven years, there's still a 27 year mental difference!  It will not go away

I don't think the maturity/mental gap between us stands a chance of closing. Yet the troublesome teen is somewhat more controlled, thanks to the shared knowlege of the NOOK.

Yes, this situation affords a much needed break to plan the next step.

[optimistic]

Yes, this situation affords a much needed break to plan the next step.

Feeling stuck, you nailed it.  I think I just saw the same sentiment expressed this morning about the Lebanon cease-fire!

[John Galt]

Hey Crystal !

You asked ...

Please help me fill in the blank: Either you _____ or I will file for divorce. Something concrete, objective and reasonable.

The key is to fill in the blank with the words ''seek treatment.'' Treatment can be a number of ways , as long as it does include responsibility, and does not include denial.

I said to Liz treatment or divorce. I gave her the phone number of a good attorney, and a great treatment centre.I asked her to call the divorce lawyer because I told her it would be faster , easier and more successful to the end game.

You know the rest , my cyber-sister,

Marc

[crystal]

Hey Marc,

Nice to see you back on the boards!  I missed you.
your wrote 

Please help me fill in the blank: Either you _____ or I will file for divorce. Something concrete, objective and reasonable.

The key is to fill in the blank with the words ''seek treatment.'' Treatment can be a number of ways , as long as it does include responsibility, and does not include denial.

Yeah, you're right... but seek treatment for what?

He is not diagnosed BPD.  He is actually drinking way less.  Right now the stresses in our life are low, so he is behaving reasonably well.  But there is that low level BPD, self-centered, edgy, blaming negativity that gets old...As I have said before any single behavior right now could be forgivable, it is the pattern that makes me unhappy being around him. 

Do I tell him:
Seek treatment so you can actually care about someone else?
Seek treatment so you no longer see the world so negatively?
Seek treatment so that its not always all about you?

Seek treatment so you can grow up?

-Crystal
The flip side, is part of me is thinking there is just too much water under the bridge.  (for the last several weeks I have been feeling an emptiness towards him, a little negative energy but more than anything else, a separation and dissociation that borders on "I dont care--at all".  I dont have an intensity of anger or worry anymore which is healthy.  Six months ago, I was physically on edge almost all the time when he was around, not anymore-- but I also dont have much in the way of positive feelings either.)

[eternaloptimist]

Crystal - you are describing me perfectly at the moment - I've "disengaged" to the point where its hard to feel anything good - Even though my H has been diagnosed BPD, and has started to get some help, I'm afraid that even after he has "improved" (sorry for all the quotation marks - wonder what that's all about?) I'm not sure I want to be with someone who is so negative and self absorbed - and - I don't think the therapy is going to help that - I could be wrong.  Right now, he is working on better behavior and feeling better about himself - I think it will help him but I'm not sure the marriage will survive.

Maybe its not about setting boundaries any more.  Maybe its about making decisions about whether you want to live with him. 

[crystal]

EO--

Good point. I think it is about both...setting boundaries, but also visualizing (and creating) the life I want to lead.

The one good thing I can say is that I am actually pretty comfortable with where I am. NOt comfortable, or happy with our relationhips, but comfortable with me.  I think I am staying pretty objective which is crucial --and the boundary setting has been a big part of getting to a good place.  There are additional boundaries I need to work on.. but I am giving myself time-- you can only do so much.

I hope therapy works for your H-- it has helped some people! 

[John Galt]

Crystal !

Thank you for your kind words.

I cannot say what he needs treatment for . AA would be a start , I guess . I think you could help you a little in personal therapy,it sure helped me the day I told my therapist and I quote myself '' Lets forget about Liz, forget about BPD, forget about how to ''cure'' Liz, and work on me and why I put up with things that others would not''

Marc