A setback in Utopia

[Think About It...]

It may be differant in your county but in mine on any Dv call someone goes to the can for the night.

That stopped a lot of playing around with the system and probably saved some lives as well.

[garyw]

It may be differant in your county but in mine on any Dv call someone goes to the can for the night.

That stopped a lot of playing around with the system and probably saved some lives as well.

[John Galt]

Actually  I called this detective for another reason because my wife was not in the house at the time and she was not allowed to have any contact with me or the kids,only through childrens aid here.

When I called him to discuss a childrens aid issue (to advise him on something) he said very apoligetically ''Marc,you are going to have to come in to the station to be arreseted,i am sorry ,there is nothing that I could do''.

I asked him if i could come in the next day when the kids were in school and I needed to contact a lawyer,and get a nanny and my mom lined up,just in case.

My lawyer contacted him and negotiated that I would only be there for a few hours ,then released after all the formalities.He said as long as his boss would ok it but he could not promise it,but he thought that if I came in  at 8,I would be out by 1 or 2.They were very fair,obviously but it made me sick being handcuffed printed and all that sht.

It was me,with handcuffs on,I mean ME !

Marc

[garyw]

  What you speak of is unfortunatly true among many police depts.

And it's so extremely dangerous and when I was a cop we had to try our best to not fall into the trap of "A Boy/Girl Who Cried Wolf" syndrome, because thats exactly what happens after a while.

Ya drive a little slower to the call ,or stop off for coffee along the way cuz..."Oh its just them again." or you finish writting some silly ticket for expired plates and it's those times when you really had only minutes to stop the bleeding but wern't there cuz..."Oh it's just them again."

I'm not getting on your case at all cuz I do understand the human factor and all  ..I just feel it my duty in a way to point out what I have seen with my own eyes and had to live with the fact that i could have gotten there sooner.

Just going to have to establish a real unflexable boundary somehow that there will be no physical contact from this day forward or else...the or else will have to be whatever consequence you come up with and it would be a good one for both her to have as well...just to be fair

[been there]

  Hey Marc,

   One step forward, two steps back, that is fine describing progress, but not abuse.

   Bringing it up in therapy is a good idea, and setting consequences that you plan on following through on.

   I do believe that her apologies are sincere, and show personal growth, but it is time to up the anti to no abuse period, verbal or physical.

   PS, you handeled the situation very well, especially for being caught off guard.

   Mark

[counter]

Hi Mark,

Just a suggestion .. I would caution doing the making your wife appologize in front of everyone right now .I'd wait until after the therapy session.. or let her come to it first on her own before the session. 

she didn't have any sence in her while she was in her state of disbelief that you were  not having an affair .. 

and yes afterwards she realized how out of it she was and now shes appologetic. rubbing it in her face right away could make her get a deeper shame reaction .  could start up more hurt feelings shame guilt and maybe trigger another rage.  Thats why I am recommending you hold off . I am not saying you shouldnt  follow through with all the things recomended here they are all  logical  for countering a abusive situation.

 she sounds like she still can't trust you . this is just gonna continue till she comes to grips with it.. why this is I can't say .  I don't live with you or know you but you sound completely blameless and extreemly unbelievably  compassionate to me so I m going with that . 

she may be acting out betrayal . Trying to get to the feelings that go woth this stuff . she may have been betrayed on many levels in the past and not been able to or did not set a boundrie with the people who needed to have them set with and of course thats the reason she has such a difficult time trusting.   she may be the one who has cheated on you .. I recall several months back a  Marc , could  have been another one but I remember your avatar. She had just cheated on you and you could not undrerstand it and she didn't think she was wrong in doing so ... so she may be projecting her guilt onto you ..If she gets this she will see how her behavior hurt you and how it hurts her and she can get on with finding what happened in the past feel it and grieve it , move on and maybe begin to trust you .   

   This is what comes to me .. so I guess a contract for the abuse but first and foremost she has to come to terms with the trust. . Its going no where  am I right ? its causing problems.. its not gonna be an easy road for her  believe me to not fall into those states. and when she does everything but you goes from her vision ..yes even the fact her own kids are in the room .she is still powereless over her reactions.maybe her seeing  the end result will be to lose you and her childen may help her to not give in to the state. She also has to realize its a state. of mind shes in.If she cares about you enough and her children it just may be the turning point for her to get better..and then again she may still slip up . its up tp you how much your willing to take or put up with .  geeze trust issues are difficult . The false accusations too . man she really has some huge huge abuse and betrayal stuff in her life  to be that situatonally parinoid. 

the best of luck to you,

Counter

[John Galt]

Thank you all.

Gary,I have said this many times before here,if I was a cop ,I would always(bar non ) arrest the man and go with the probabilities,plain and simple.That is why I warn men here,lots of cops feel this way.Cops are humans( some people miss this point) they do not have ESP,make laws ,or act as judges.There are good and bad ones like every profession.

Another important point is that if one decided to go to the station and ''warn '' the station of their spouse and their spouses mental condition and abusive tendendies,that might help you a little ( it did once for me) but it also does not mean that much because when I went to do this the detective told me ( and she was correct btw) that that in itself does not hold all the weight because a person who wished to abuse their spouse-if cunning- could go to the station first and talk about the other abusing them first.


Been there,thanks for your good words.I know that they are sincere as well,but it is not enough any more.To err is human ,to forgive is devine blah blah blah but it does not give you cartblanche to continue to do whatever you want,in my book anyway.

Counter,
I did actually take your advice and will wait until Tuesday,your points were very good and intelligent.Everything that you said (except one thing) was very accurate.Her trust of me is zero,that is a problem,a real problem and we are trying to work with it at the therapist.It is due to her past with her family,the betrayal,a rape, and other things as well which must be mindblowing for her.It was a tough life although that does not mean that my life and my kids should be tough as well.The cycle must stop.
You were remembering another poster here about an affair.I have never considered that with Eliizabeth for one second and I do not think it is an issue at all.I know others might read that as naivity on my part but its not an issue. That being said ,her paranoia about my ''girlfriends'' really is just continuing to bother me to no end because it is her reality .It is ironic because that could eventually  ''be the straw'' so to speak because I cannot continue to hear this and also specific names of woman in my life floating around my childerns ears indefinately.If I left her there would be many woman at that point,which would be the one thing that she pushed me to.Irony,hmm.

I already believe that my first daugher would have to question that it is true because mommy says it so much,which is quite sad.A little girl sees her Daddy as that first most important man in their lives,and to see a womanizer as their dad would be and is tragic for me.

Counter,thanks for your very insightful analysis,your points were wonderful.

Marc

[JoannaK]

I'm sorry, marc, and I sincerely hope you can get back on track again.

Has she been taking any different medications or has she been adding any over-the-counter stuff to any prescribed meds?  I've seen medications problems make a profound difference in how someone responds to stress, so check that out. 

About the trust issue...  Gheez, you've been with her years and if you've never given her a reason not to trust, this trust issue must be placed squarely in her column.  You can't teach her to trust you, she's got to work on this.  And the trust isn't the big issue here...  The big issue is her extremely inappropriate way of handling her emotions, whether justified or not.  Even if you had been seeing someone else, her reaction...violence in front of the kids... was terribly inappropriate.

She needs to see that her jealousy is her problem... and that her way of dealing with the jealousy is her problem.  If she can't accept the depth of her issues, any "improvement" is just a mirage.  And you need to keep asking yourself, marc, what your limits are and how long you let your children suffer because you hope that your wife is really and truly "better".   

[John Galt]

Thank you Joanna,

Actually her ''doc'' did not want her on anything but recently gave her something,not sure what,but something like a valium or lorazapam.Take when needed.

Its right,I tell her that even if I was seeing another woman,we cannot fight in front of the kids.

It is the emotions,not the trust.

I have seen tons of improvement lately but I will start to press even more at the therapist for her to get help elsewhere as where.

As always J, your advice is always wonderfully accepted,
Marc

[JoannaK]

Marc, when did the doc give her the benzos?  How many has she been taking?  Many people, including those with BPD and bipolar, have paradoxical reactions to benzadaizipines, especially if they take too many.  With a paradoxical reaction, instead of being calmer or less anxious, the person gets more agitated, is violent, threatening, argumentative, etc.  Usually this happens at higher-than-prescribed doses, but if she is supposed to take them as needed, she could think she needs a lot more than she is taking. 

 

[John Galt]

See,I noticed that years ago and I told him and he looked at me like I had 3 heads ?

I am going to talk to Liszy about it because I think that is accurate what you stated,and also she seems way more tired lately.
She told me that she had not taken many,but...

Thanks

[JoannaK]

I just pm'd you marc.  If she's been taking them for some time, even at a low dose, she could actually be addicted to them.  There's a site, www.benzo.org.uk , with lots of alarming info about benzos and withdrawal from them.  You may wish to check out that site.

[moesha]

Maybe it's her meds and maybe it isn't.  and there is certainly nothing wrong with suggesting that she talk to her MD about it.

However, I feel strongly that by "discusssing" it w/her, it might minimize the point you are trying to make, and that is violence is never acceptable.  Threats are never acceptable.  If she is acting aggressively, or putting her hands on you or the kids, then no matter if it's meds, BPD, PMS, full moon, act of god, allergies or athlete's foot, you will invoke the terms of the abuse contract you two are going to draw up with the therapist, up to and including calling 911 and having her taken to jail or the hospital.

It is HER job to solve HER problem with violent, aggressive behavior.  If she refuses to take the initiative, such as calling her doctor, then the ball is in your court.

[JoannaK]

I do want to agree with Moesha...  even if her recent episode was brought about by meds, it is still her responsibility to get her life under control.  She's the one, for instance, who will have to stop using the valium or whatever if it is contributing to violent episodes.  A drunk who kills someone in a bar fight (or while driving under the influence) is still responsible for his actions.

[John Galt]

Totally agree with both of you two.

I think that it could have got her more angry because she was ''very good'' for like 2 months or something before that day a few days ago.

Liz had not taken any meds for I think a year or so now,before this.

I will not use this as an excuse for her in anyway nor will it justify her actions either.She cannot do that again and that will be the Tuesday discussion for sure.I will not waver on this at all,not an iota.

My fear( although I have a son) is that my daughters will read this as acceptence (physical abuse),by my by doing nothing.

I will not discuss with her that her ''choking'' was because of the medication cause it was not.
Her anger might have been exasperated by the meds,and I will discuss this with her,not the actions of her motions,

Thanks,
Marc

[At_Bay]

I'm reading your words, Marc, and seeing some things I've done that I now regret. Could you consider this: your wife and the mother of your children could continue to improve whether you are living with her, or not. It isn't necessary to expose your kids to this environment for your wife to get better. Do you realizine that her apologizing after a scene/abuse, could be part of the battered husband syndrome. That is, only doing what it takes to control you and the situation, but not doing so much that you would leave. She's learned that an apology will stop that. I know very well that an apology from a spouse can make you doubt what you know. Keeps you off balance and that is probably why it works. Bad deal there, I think, is that doubts and fears of ours can make them our jailers. They know that by now, and that is how I got where I am now!

The police are involved? I truly believe you are making a gallant effort in regard to the welfare of your children and damage-control. It is her choice-- how she raises her children. It looks like her intent is pretty clear. My husband knew 100% that it wasn't negotiable.  Fear that she won't get better if you are not there, has to take a backseat to creating the best environment you can for these kids while they are young. True, some could argue that emotionally, your wife is a helpless kid heself, but causing additional pain to the innocent is not something that can be allowed in the process of her learning about herself. Preventing another bad childhood, without any sign of relief is of foremost importance. Hoping your wife will improve isn't a reason to put off making changes in your kids' lives. She can still improve while they escape seeing these battles in person. The night your daughter tried to protect you must have had her stomach in knots. I'm so sorry to say that and admire you for trying your best in the face of such obstacles. Please make it easier on yourself, too.

I know you have said you see this and are prepared to do what you have to do. Such a hard thing to be on your shoulders and I can't criticize too much because while my husband never acted out in front of our son, I was certainly miserable and engulfed in drama and angst to the point that it must have affected my own attitude and child-rearing. It was my responsibility to fix that. I had a choice and I let my husband control me, over my better judgment. You say you fear your girls becoming victims also. My husband was a victim of his mother's disorder, saw her dominate and threaten her husband while family life revolved around her drama and mayhem. He grew up to became the aggressor just like her and flirted with being thrown in jail on several occasions. You never know.

Take care of yourself.

At Bay

[wojah]

Marc, I agree with JoannaK that your wife does sound very insecure and extremely an over-jealous person.  After reading your drama night, I have some random thoughts to share with you.

Since it appears you are trying to stay in the marriage to make it work, I think you will need to work even harder to help your wife own her own problems.  Meaning, when she acts like an insanely jealous person, you may need to swallow your pride and go the "extra mile" to reassure her that you are not cheating on her.  So when she was drilling you about the cologne, maybe the better response would have been "Hon, I love you.  You're the most beautiful woman in my eyes. I would never cheat on you. What will it take for you to believe in me?"  Repeating these phrases to her over and over again may finally sink in to her.  Not responding to her at all and just being silent will not help the situation nor diffuse it (as you have experienced).  So obviously not responding to her and giving her the silent treatment isn't going to help her either. So it's a matter of saying the right things and doing the right things to help heal her spirits.  Her spirits are broken/shattered right now.  Her insecurity shows her desperateness, loneliness and low self esteem.  If you can constantly see her in that light, you will have more compassion for her and respond in a more loving manner that may impact her more positively.  There is definitely a control issue between you two like most NONs and BPDs. From my own personal experience being married to a BPD husband, true change started happening when I took a few steps back and relinquished my part of trying to be controlling and bowed out of the control-tug-of-war ego game.

You may not be ready to do this yet, but I think the best way to affect positive change in your wife is to begin loving her with words and actions. I realize there has been so much crap that has happened between you two that there are probably a lot of resentment built up between BOTH of you and it's not easy to forgive or forget.  But since you have made the decision to stay in the marriage right now and want help for her, you will need to also work on your own issues so you can be that loving, "giving tree" without holding anything back.

I hope I didn't say anthing to offend you. I know it sucks being married to a BPD. All of us here can relate and believe me, it took a lot of time and self improvement for me to see my own BPD husband clearly.  I hope things get better and that your wife gets well soon too for the sake of your marriage and children. 

[John Galt]

Wojah,

Thank you,you did not offend me,you really really helped me,thanks.

You are so correct because when I do things in the way you mentioned,it works very well.It difuses things quickly when I re assure her.She later tells me (almost always) that she did not mean what she said and only said it to bother me because something bothered her.I believe this partly because I do believe that she believes there are other woman.Sje always has since day 1 when I thought it was a little cute( the jealousy thing) now ,I don't.

It is not the jealousy that bothers me,its the lack of trust,in almost every thing.

You are right in that I do have to swallow my pride and usually I do,just sometimes I cannot.


At _bay,

Thanks too,I will stay for as  long as I can as for as long as there are steps in the right direction(even baby ones) and I will try/hope for her to seek her own therapy while also setting boundries which we will discuss at the therapist tomorrow.Before this most she had really done terrrific and things inproved so so much.The light choking thing was bad but we can and will deal with this tomorrow.I will not seperate,I am either in or out.Me leaving her with the kids for a while is not a possibility ,and I will not pursue her leaving until she ''figures it out'' either.
It is either in or out or she can go to an extensive ''BPD get better course'' or whatever if she wants.

Thank you all,

Marc

[John Galt]

Quick update for those who were following this post.

Today is Therapist day and my wife said this morning( in a very nice calm way) that she will not go to todays meeting with the therapist,or to doctor either?

She just seemed sad,quiet,and very firm in her decision.

I did not want to talk about it with the exception of saying why,to which she responded ''A therapist cannot solve our problems''

Anyway,I am gone for the day,see you nookies ''manana''

Marc

[moesha]

Is therapy a non negotiable boundary?  are there consequences if she refuses to go and are you prepared to follow thru on those consequences?  are you still planning to keep the appointment? 

Of course she doesn't want to go.  She knows she will be confronted with unacceptable, violent, criminal behavior.  Since she appears to want to be indulged and enabled rather than seriously wanting to get better, therapy acts counter to her plan of blaming you for everything and continuing to indulge in sick behavior at will. 
So she's right:  therapy won't solve HER problems, because she is making the choice to remain untreated.

Therapy can and will help you, however.

[At_Bay]

Thank you for replying, Marc. I think I understand what you are saying because I used to feel the same way. All I know is that for years I worried about what bad things might happen if I changed our lives. I assumed I knew what these things would be, to what degree they would occur and what help I would or wouldn't have with them. Yet, I allowed bad things to routinely happen in my home. Why didn't they seem as bad and those I feared? It became my usual life, day-by-day, as if I'd chosen it.

It is very possible my fears were reinforced by my husband as a way to have control. I had strengths that I even discounted myself.

I'm sorry your wife wouldn't go today.

At Bay