A setback in Utopia

[Think About It...]

What I really fear from divorce is the end of the ''dream''.The 2.2 kids,the white picket fence,the dog and the mentally stable wife

Mark - YOU DO NOT HAVE THIS "DREAM" NOW.  Why would you stay in this "marriage" if you don't have your dream at all?  You DON'T have your dream.  You do not have a healthy marriage, a mentally stable wife, a woman who can love you.  You have a facade of a marriage.  You have a facade of a wife.  You are married to a mentally unstable, physically abusive woman, who you are convinced you love (whom you probably do love, but from my distance it looks like a very unhealthy version of love).

Marc, I am worried about you.  You CANNOT make her get better.  No matter how many times you "give her the chance" to go to a therapist.  Until SHE picks up the phone, until SHE does the homework, until SHE invests in herself - she will NOT BE INVESTED in getting better.  No matter what you threaten her with (divorce) - she is being coerced into the choice rather than making it herself.  

Please keep going to the therapist - who gave you FABULOUS advice.  The T is a PROFESSIONAL who has seen situations similar to yours many times.  The T understands what is happening even if you are reluctant to hear the words.

You have got to take care of your kids and yourself.  Who will your kids have if you aren't there to protect them?

[Oy-vey!]

What I really fear from divorce is the end of the ''dream''.The 2.2 kids,the white picket fence,the dog and the mentally stable wife

Mark - YOU DO NOT HAVE THIS "DREAM" NOW.  Why would you stay in this "marriage" if you don't have your dream at all?  You DON'T have your dream.  You do not have a healthy marriage, a mentally stable wife, a woman who can love you.  You have a facade of a marriage.  You have a facade of a wife.  You are married to a mentally unstable, physically abusive woman, who you are convinced you love (whom you probably do love, but from my distance it looks like a very unhealthy version of love).

Marc, I am worried about you.  You CANNOT make her get better.  No matter how many times you "give her the chance" to go to a therapist.  Until SHE picks up the phone, until SHE does the homework, until SHE invests in herself - she will NOT BE INVESTED in getting better.  No matter what you threaten her with (divorce) - she is being coerced into the choice rather than making it herself.  

Please keep going to the therapist - who gave you FABULOUS advice.  The T is a PROFESSIONAL who has seen situations similar to yours many times.  The T understands what is happening even if you are reluctant to hear the words.

You have got to take care of your kids and yourself.  Who will your kids have if you aren't there to protect them?

[wojah]

Marc, you mentioned about the American Dream.  Your thoughts caught my attention because I am still trying to hold on to my dream as well. But you know what? I am beginning to realize that the main problem with this whole picture is that it should be a "shared" dream, meaning OUR DREAM...but it's not.  Like your situation, my dream is only MINE and mine only.  My husband doesn't appreciate or share the same level of passion for the dream.  So one person is left cherishing that dream while the other is either destroying it or indifferent to it.  Your wife wants to destroy your dream while my husband is indifferent to our dream... and lets me and outsiders know at every opportunity that he built the dream house for me and the house is mine.  He doesn't want to attach himself to any part of my dream.  I don't know where my marriage will end up but I can honestly say to you that if my husband was trying to destroy MY dream, I would be filing divorce immediately.

My husband's indifference attitude doesn't make any sense to me.  But then again, a lot of his attitudes doesn't make any sense to me.  I know this must be very painful for you to let go of your dreams.  But you know what?  I think you can always rebuild your dreams again in the future---and hopefully with a normal person who is an equal partner in building the dream together..as it should be.

One person holding on to a dream really sucks.  But don't give up on future dreams.  Dreams are what keeps our souls alive and I hope you never stop dreaming even when one dream dies.  

[Mollyd]

One more thing . .

I meant to say something about the dream too.  Remember there are a LOT of good dreams out there.  Sometimes we really get stuck when we lose sight of that, and only see one kind of good dream.  Best wishes.

Mollyd.

[amybeth79]

Oh, Marc...

I'd say: "well then x-x-x-x right off, Marc...you're a piece of sht monster!  How could you threaten to leave me when I'm like this?  You don't love me."

THEN, I'd realize what an idiot I'm being...and, either 1) apologize with tail tucked between my legs, and committ myself to recovery or 2) run away.

Either way, you still win...and you still lose.  

Wow, I'm in a positive mood today, huh?  :-\

love-Amy

[istayed]

Remember there are a LOT of good dreams out there.

You're so right, Mollyd! More than one way to skin a cat. More than one way to have happiness in this life...if you let yourself.

Ruthless, I know you want to exhaust every avenue. If/when you issue the line-in-the-sand ultimatum, be sure you provide a deadline. If you make her decide at that moment, her BPD will be in charge and she'll just say "NO!" But even if she says that, be sure to make the deadline sometime in the future, say two weeks or six months or whatever time frame seems appropriate, depending on whether you do the retreat. But you know all this...

Do you anticipate problems related to the kids if you decide to leave? I think you've addressed that issue before, but I can't remember.

Also, Amy's right--there's no solution that will be win-win-win for you, her, and the kids, UNLESS she commits to recovery.

Know we're all with you,
spam

[wojah]

It's about self-preservation.  Save yourself or lose your soul. That's where one has to draw the line in the sand.

[John Galt]

All this help and guidence really is wonderful,thanks.


First of all,MollyD.I very much appreciate that compliment,it means lots because I think of my children emotions and thats part of the problem.
The grown child will look back and say you should have left her.The child from now until then will be devastated that you did leave he.I know lots will not agree but this is my view for my children now.This is not me justifying my actions or lack thereof,just what I see.My kids see certain things that are bad,disasterous and so on but ,I anticipate the alternative and it would obviously be a long hard adjusment.They would be healthier for it,I know but they would also miss their mom,and her role in their lives daily.

Thanks MollyD.

Wojah,what can I say,we are comrades in arms,I hear you and agree.That boundries point is understood,you were accurate in me thinking about the boundries and my stance or non stance.

Amy,thanks,thats why her answer really should not concern me so much,I should be more concerned with me and my reaction to her disregard for me rather than anticipating her thoughts and actions.I should be George Bush,here is the line if you cross it then its war.It was crossed then it was war !

Please no politics here,just an example !
Oy, I know you are right,its getting to that strength that is hard ,that finality of the decision.

MollyD ( when I see your name ,I think of the song Peggy Sue)
I would get full custody with supervised visitation,almost 100%,my lawyers have advised me.

Wow,

Marc

[garyw]

Every time I see a post about the struggles of dicorce I think back to mine and do understand even though it has been over 20 years now.

It's interesting how some have come to view marriage and divorce.

Having a cup of coffee with a bunch of friends we will talk about how if marriages don't work out that there is alway divorce.

Divorce has become I think 50% of the standard.

Over that same cup of coffee at the same table with the same friends we can talk about divorce.

When that is discused its always dicused with such finality as if once done there is no return ever thought of.

  I don't see why a person can't get divorced when that may be the only way to remove ones self from abuse and maybe the only thing that may rock the abuser into reality...then if that abuser gets well...take em out on a date if you still care and see where it goes from there

[Mollyd]

Marc,

Thank you.  And, I REALLY meant it.  There are few men in my life I have known that were willing to work at themselves.  I respect that in you.

The children thing.  You know - it truly is different in every family. For me, I knew as a child I wanted my dad to leave.  Most of the voices here (Nook) are from adult children who were damaged in a similar way to me.  That is not necessarily the version that plays out for you and your children.  You are not lacking self introspection, willingness to take responsiblity or get outside help and support like most of the enparent stories in BPDFamily.  Although the amount of time you have been looking at this does raise some questions for me about how desensitized you might be to not OK stuff.

I doubt the truth of what your children will feel is the extremes you describe (devastation now . . . you should have left later); because you are doing so much of your own work, your children have much more potential to have a wide range of emotions about things, as long as you keep working at *recovery* so to speak, and allow them to do the same. The way I see it is health is never in the extremes, either/or, black/white.  The more you, your wife, and your children have the ability and freedom to walk in, express and be outside of the extremes, the more health there is.  

Boudaries - I was referring to the one's I thought you were pondering about your wife's participation in therapy.  Seems clear you've got the big ones down.  

Take care!

Mollyd (PeggySue )

[John Galt]

I hear that Gary,

The thing is is that the dynamics get all so screwed up,backs get up,egos get involved,children issues.Courts ripping the kids away from the mentally ill spouse in this situation,and then all of a sudden it is even more hated and evil,and sometimes it takes years to get back to the ''hey,how ya doing ?'' phone call,and both people have new loves,and as you stated in another post (I think) why did I even love that person.Actually ,i think it was someone else but it was a good post.

PeggySue,Thank you again. I spent so much time on UNCHOSEN in the summer,and it was real hard seeing what these good people have gone through but it really validates me the way you put it.I often see this black/white thing too (opps) and it does not have to be that way either.Also I do feel desensitized now which is real sad and bad for me.What man would not have punched his wife in my case( even knowing jail was your fate),I believed that I was less of a man or non man at that moment but yesterday I started to think I was more of a man for not defending myself.Today,I think it means I am a man,a good man,but a man who clearly needs some work with these boundries in our discussions.
About the boundries,you are wrong,I got the small ones down,I will get the big ones in time,hopefully soon.

Thank you for your kind words MollyD

[Mollyd]

Marc,

Final thought for right now, I've GOT to get back to work . . . I know a lot of men who would not have punched their wives in what happened to you yesterday.  I don't know many that would have stayed though.

Hang in there.

Pegs

[John Galt]

Thanks for stating that.

I really meant to write that while some men might of utilized self defense at that moment,probaly only a very very small percentage of ''non men'' if I may use that term would have struck back.Most men would not have accepted that from their wives and most woman would not have accpeted that from their husbands.

I meant to write that my response ''of not punching her'' did not make me good,but my response of not setting or enforcing a boundry makes me ''not good'',cause it does not  help me,my kids or her.

Wow, now I am confused,please understand me ,everyone.

Marc

[Oy-vey!]

Marc,

Here is a fact you need to think about for a while - just sit with it and let it absorb.

Every single woman who has been physically abused was first verbally abused.  100%.  Physical abuse always begins with verbal abuse.

Verbal abuse beats you down to the point that you begin to accept the unacceptable.  I do not have the statistic at hand right this moment, but there are a great number of women who are physically abused who leave, then go back to more physical abuse.  They have lost the ability to see that they have choices.  Their children become part of the cycle too because it is okay to live with it.

You have been beaten to the point that you no longer can see the reality of your situation. 

Think about what you would tell me if my SO ever laid a hand on me.  Just laid a hand on me in anger.  You would tell me to get out.

Please think about that for a while.  Why is your life different?  Why would you let your kids stay in that situation?  They need two parents, yes, but more importantly they need to not be exposed to what is happening in your home now.  They will still see their mother.  They will still have her.  Nothing will change that she is their mother. 

They need you to be the voice of sanity.  And you need to take care of yourself.

Have you called your attorney yet to just share what is going on?  (Maybe I'm pushing you to get those papers signed, but maybe I'm just thinking what your attorney's advice is right now too).

[John Galt]

Thanks Oy,I did not need anytime to ponder it,though.

My advice would be the following dear friend:

You cannot and should not take this from this man Oy,you are smart wonderful and your children need to understand that this behaviour is unacceptable.You know what to do,Oy.

Looking in the mirror,it is hard to say to me,herein lies my problem.

Thank you all,


I am going to escape to workout and hopefully watch my beloved Canadian Olympic  hockey
team beat those pesky and talented Russians to a pulp.


I hear you Oy,understood.
Thanks
Marc

[garyw]

those pesky and talented Russians

 I fall in love every time this time of the year at just watching the Russian figure skaters.

I almost hate to watch it in a way becuse of it :P

I was in Moscow a couple of years ago in the spring time. There are more beautiful women there per capita (sp) than I have seen anywhere in the world.

Haven't been to Brazil yet though :P

[Oy-vey!]

Marc,

I was starting to wonder that maybe I've been too harsh with you.  That I shouldn't have spoken up so loudly.  But, then I realized that if I saw that you had stepped on a rusty nail and punctured your foot, yet you didn't seem concerned about it - I would be yelling just as loudly to take care of yourself, that your children need you, that you need to protect yourself from anything that might come of that injury.

I know you are thinking about everything that we've said today.  I know that none of this is easy to digest or accept or incorporate into the way you've become accustomed.  But, we are all concerned about your well-being.

You are a true friend to me.  You are such a wonderful person, father, friend.

[spouseofbp]

Whoa - what a thread!

Marc major kudos to you for standing toe-to-toe & not touching her as she grabbed you that night.  That shows the utmost restraint.  Dali Llama would be proud. 

Your scenario sounds so parallel to mine.  I can only speak from my own experience w/my bpw.  An apology from her to me would be paramount.  It would be "3 steps forward".  I don't know if your wife has apologized much before, but if the answer is "no", it may just be a good mark on the "plus side" of the board.

I have to agree with been there & counter back on pg 2.  I've come to learn that baby steps are the only way - as they can only "swallow" one change in their behavior, or "swallow" one new boundary --- one at a time.  To barrage them with all the new requirements we've learned from our studies, would be just too much to bear.

At least for me, an apology would be a welcome improvement.  With my wife, I would hesitate "rubbing her nose in it" - it would be much too overwhelming, and backfire for sure.  Because for her, apologizing would be a "new" behavior.  One she could hopefully get accustomed to. 

To build on the little positives would be my goal.  If she can develop a habit of apologizing, then next time maybe do it in front of the kids...?

Continue the path of calm serenity, and to reflect love back - in the mirror of anger & insult.  That is my goal, and one worthy. 

When people insult us, we are usually offended.  Likewise, when we a paid a compliment, we are usually flattered.  Imagine being insulted, and we DO NOT take offense?  Just emulate consistency of attitude & love.  Wow - what a great place to pursue achieving.

Great admiration for your patience & self-control ruthless.  Good luck!

[At_Bay]

Oh, my. I think this February weather is getting to me. I hope it is at least sunny where you are.

Marc, the first thing I noticed in her e-mail was that she portrayed you as the villain. My therapist says there is no villain. But, emotional health for me means knowing no one will accuse me unjustly and that I don't feel guilty if there is no sane reason to do so.

If it were up to you, the dream would live. You don't have control over that, none of us do/did. There is a chance, I hope, of replacing it with other dreams. My current dream is of being treated fairly, lovingly. The bar is so very low that it doesn't take much. It does take more than I receive from my husband, however.

Your wife's e-mail is predictable I think. She's messed up, and now, for the cycle to continue there must be some contrition. Notice, she may act like she had no choice-- fill in the blank. When my husband swore he saw his mistakes and wanted to start anew, I asked if he'd like to tell that to my therapist, and he said that he would. A bonus was that he'd being trying for months to get himself into that room, either by having our therapists talk, or calling it marriage counseling. Having something all to myself, without his input, seemed to bother him a great deal (control).

Anyway, when he went with me it turned out to be an appeal for sympathy with my therapist handing him tissues. No talk of his new attitude, no nothing about us, just how hard his childhood and job had been and his needs. Fine, and I sat there and teared up and supported him, but when I thought about it later, I felt bamboozled again. Looks to me like your wife needs to pull you back in and rather than describe what part she has played in the marry me, divorce me scenario, she doesn't mention her role at all. I'd feel like asking her what role she thinks she played in that. 

So sad. I just don't know how things can go like this. As I said before, this is how I wound up married 34 years. Therapy has made me see my choices. Dream is gone although I can have the family around the table Thanksgiving. I also get to experience my husband wanting me to feel bad for ignoring him while I enjoy my extended family. This dream has become very uncomfortable and I'm certain it doesn't qualify even on the fringes anymore. I was kidding myself, and just as you wisely said, I don't have a replacement handy and it is frightening at 63. It was frightening at 30, but there was so much time left then.

My best to you,
At Bay

[been there]

   Hi Marc,

   Whether this is just a setback on your wifes part or not, the ball is back in your court. As a vertran player of the game, it seems to me that it's time to let yourself love you and the kids, as much(or more) than you love your wife.

   I say that, only to give my own personal expierence as an example, not that it is the right way for you or anyone else, but it has worked for some that are still here, along with some who don't post anymore because their relationship is working out, thus no need to be here.

   Setting an ultimatum, will only work if you are totally prepared to follow through. With boundaries there is always room to change and adapt, but if you are at your last straw, there is no turning back, for you health or even your wifes.

   I was ready to leave and take the kids with me, unless Tina agreed to get help and then follow through with it. Whether she was afraid of losing everything or what, it didn't matter, her getting help was all that mattered to me, and it was nonnegotionable.

   It's not about being some hard ass, it's about being happy and healthy for everyone involved.

   Whatever you do, it is your choice. I will be behind you and for you no matter what, and so will everyone else here.

   Peace, Mark

[snaillady2]

marc, I just caught up with the Utopia thread in "committed".  But it seems to be calming down so I decided to PM you. Now that I've started reading what I'm writing, I"m going back to the thread and posting this there.

Please take care of yourself, you need to be able to take care of the kids no matter how things end up, and by taking care of yourself, you are in a better position to take care of the kids.  I read an article on the differences between the French and the Americans when it comes to mothers: the French believe if the mother is happy, everything else will fall into place, whereas the Americans tend to focus on making the kids happy.  I think the French have it right.

That said, one of your posts about how to bring up an ultimatum (live-away treatment or out) reminded me very much of how to deal with an intervention. Maybe if you google amazon you will find some books that help you confront your concerns in this regards?  Your whole situation reminds me very much of how we felt when we were planning my sister's intervention for alcoholism: the overriding rule is that you *must* have everything in place before confronting the person--have a place reserved at the "clinic", have a backup plan in place for you and the kids if she refuses to go, have all the divorce paperwork in place, have your financials in order, and have a person on call who will drive her, immediately, if she chooses to go [yes, it is still HER CHOICE to enter].  Entrance date is NOT negotiable. [not, "tomorrow", not "next week", not "if couples therapy doesn't work."] She goes when you confront her, or you walk with the kids, directly to the county office to file for divorce. 

This is *NOT* your line in the sand, the GREAT WALL OF CHINA. I cannot stress enough that my belief is that you cannot just "bring up" inpatient treatment. It has to be in a confrontational, interventional way. It is the ONLY way you will get her attention enough to take you seriously.

Snails