Another episode...

[Think About It...]

My wife is considering sending her 10 year old child to overnight camp for five days this summer (the same camp I went to as a boy).  However, my wife is talking about going to camp with her child.  I suggested that she consider letting her child go by themself; that going by themself might be what her child wants most and also would be the best for her child (the child feels smothered by her).  I wasnt trying to start an argument, I just stated my opinion and was ready to drop it whether she agreed with me or not.

She exploded.  She started in an angry argumentative tone then escalated to yelling.  I told her that if she didnt stop yelling at me, I was going to have to leave for a short while.  She went berserk and started shrieking and hitting the walls then hitting herself against the walls then eventually threw herself on the floor (no children were home at the time).

I got out of there quickly before she hurt herself or damaged something (she generally stops raging if there is no audience).  She called after I left and begged me to come home.  I told her I would come home after an hour.  She said she wasnt willing to wait and would be gone when I got home.  She came home about five hours later and it has been the silent treatment since.

[Caribou]

My wife is considering sending her 10 year old child to overnight camp for five days this summer (the same camp I went to as a boy).  However, my wife is talking about going to camp with her child.  I suggested that she consider letting her child go by themself; that going by themself might be what her child wants most and also would be the best for her child (the child feels smothered by her).  I wasnt trying to start an argument, I just stated my opinion and was ready to drop it whether she agreed with me or not.

She exploded.  She started in an angry argumentative tone then escalated to yelling.  I told her that if she didnt stop yelling at me, I was going to have to leave for a short while.  She went berserk and started shrieking and hitting the walls then hitting herself against the walls then eventually threw herself on the floor (no children were home at the time).

I got out of there quickly before she hurt herself or damaged something (she generally stops raging if there is no audience).  She called after I left and begged me to come home.  I told her I would come home after an hour.  She said she wasnt willing to wait and would be gone when I got home.  She came home about five hours later and it has been the silent treatment since.

[elphaba]

Oh Caribou,

I'm so sorry... (( ))

It is so sad that she cannot see beyond her own wants/needs to see what is best for her child.  It is only 5 days after all and it is good for them at that age to feel a little independant.  And how cool that it is the same camp you went to

I don't think you could have handled it any other way, you did not engage the rage, you held to your boundary about the yelling.  Sometimes even when we do everything right, they still have these episodes.  you gave 100% of your 50%, that is all you can do.  Hopefully she is able to calm down, think about the situation more rationally and realize she went off the deep end.

I feel for you and definately know the pain of how you are feeliing right now... at least it's quiet, right?

you are doing the right thing, you can't do anymore...the work now is on her...

pm me if you need an ear...

[Mollyd]

Caribou,

I think elphaba said it well.  I'm sorry this is happening.  Sounds like you did really well.

There have been some posts on here lately that speak to the "walk of recovery".  I think we often need to shore up the most during this walk.  It is SO hard!  Know this moment will pass, and the best predictor of the future is the past - so, if your wife has truly made positive steps, maybe in some time she will calm down and get it together again.  You can weather this - by

continuing to live YOUR life.  Have a good day, with good moments no matter the spot she is in.  Do the cliche that is so important - take care of yourself.

Molls

[JoannaK]

Caribou, I'm sorry that this happened.  I'm glad you left.

I can't believe she is even considering going along with her son.  That poor child with such a smothering mom.  And she's upset that you won't get her pregnant? 

Please, please don't give in to her silent treatment by begging her to talk to you.  You were absolutely right to suggest that she not go to an overnight camp with her poor 10-year old. 

Hang in there...  Maybe she's just experiencing some blips on the road to recovery...  or maybe recovery is simply something that she can't do.  Only time will tell.  The question is:  How much time?

[istayed]

However, my wife is talking about going to camp with her child.

I think you were too reserved in your suggestion. This is the dumbest idea I ever heard! Camp is for kids--it's designed to instill independence while keeping the kids safe and providing them with plenty of opportunities for fun. The only thing that could mess up a child's camp experience is to have a parent there. If she has to go along, she might as well skip it and keep the child at home, tied to her apron-strings. Whew, sorry--that just flew all over me.

She came home about five hours later and it has been the silent treatment since.

You're normal. As Molls said, continue to be normal. I'm so sorry this happened--but IMHO, you handled it in the best way possible. Wonder if there's something new going on in her head that's sparking these problems? You might ask--if/when she starts talking again.

spam

[John Galt]

Hey Caribou,

Is it just my poor memory or have there been more incidents recently because the 3 most recent issues were ( I think) the silverware,the car, and this one.

I am just wondering out loud if there is any reason behind this ( stress or a manifistation of something else) but forgive me if I am not accurate in my memory.

Personally , I hate how a minor issue can just turn into a rage.I argued with Elizabeth just now ( real minor) because a lady from the dogpark came by my house and wanted me to read something.Liz told me she would fax it to my office now,but something is wrong with my fax ( Does anyone fax anymore ? haha) then I told her that I would read it at home and she said I had to read it now.
I told her that nothing that this 70 year old dogpark lady has is important to me right now,and then she got a little upset.
I said I decide what and when I read things ,not a 70 year old dog park lady ?
The emotions go bonkers after this.

You did well Caribou  !

Marc

[istayed]

Sorry--what's a dogpark?  ?

spam

[JoannaK]

Look, Caribou, I know it's very hard to see all of this backsliding after you had a good month or two.

It's also easy to deceive ourselves about what is really getting better and what is not "getting better".  I hope you are keeping a journal of "good" vs. "reasonable" vs. "not great" vs. "truly shtty" in terms of days, and perhaps, portions of the day.  Every evening and/or morning, in addition to any other journaling you are doing, jot down a quick "rating" without looking at what you "rated" yesterday or the day before.  The purpose of this is to get a more objective idea of how she is and how your marriage is.

I used to think that things were getting better, things were getting better, this was just a blip, etc. etc.  Then, after I separated, I came across things I had written years earlier.  I didn't remember as much pain and misery and I had experienced all along.  I was surprised that things had been as bad as they were even during the "good" times.  Our minds fool us... I really do believe that, as humans, we are somehow programmed to remember good things and forget bad things.  

So... I would suggest a simple rating system, with ratings written down as specific times.  You can be much more objective about whether things are really sliding downhill or if this is really just a "blip".

And I have to agree with Spam...  planning on going on a camp with him is absurd.  This isn't your child, of course, so you do have to be careful about what you say.  She's his mom, screwy though she is, and you aren't his dad.  

[Caribou]

elphaba- I appreciate the support and validation.  I know I should enjoy the calm but it is hard not to feel down about what is going on.

Mollyd- I am bad about not "taking care of myself".  When she left, I considered going to the gym for a while but I thought "I should be here when she gets back so we can talk".  If I had know it would be five hours then she would be unwilling to talk, I would have gone.

We were planning to go out (like on a date) for a nice meal just before this all happened.  It is doubly disappointing that those plans went down the tubes.  Thanks for the encouragement; I need to make myself follow your suggestions.

JoannaK- I am not one to beg for anything; I am stubborn to a fault if nothing else.  You hit the core of my fear in this situation, whether this is just a blip or something bigger.  That is what keeps me up at night.

I had kept a journal back when things were really bad but stopped when things improved.  I recognize that I am as quick as anyone to forget the bad stuff and only remember the good things.

Spamlady- thanks for the validation.  I start to question myself during times like these.  My kids are a few years older so I start wondering if I have forgotten what is appropriate for a 10 year old.

As the discussion was escalating, my wife mentioned that all during church (just before the episode) that she heard a baby behind us fussing and that was a reminder of how she may never have another child and how she has to be extra careful to protect her 10 year old because that is all she has.  I believe that comment is a clue as to what is going on in her head.

Ruthless- Your memory is on target.  It is like her brain was working well for a few months and now it is going back off track again.  She is more easily triggered and her thoughts quickly become irrational once she is triggered.

[John Galt]

A dog park my little Spamaroo is a park where dog owners come togeather and let their doggies run around and play with eachother.It is good for socializing ( for the dogs) and the owners all stand around and talk their fluff about whatever,and in my instance there are 2 woman there ( one 80 or so and the other 150 or so) who really love me.

Go ahead and tell Liz if you want !

If my memory is correct then Caribou, is she in any therapy ( not marriage) at all.I seem to recall that you said you did not have the resources in the sense of DBT specialists in your neck of the woods.

I think if its the case of no therapy right now for her, maybe you could ask around for DBT therapists because there are more than I think all over the place these days.

I believe DBT is the way, for BPDs and nons alike,it works.

Marc

[Caribou]

Marc- So now we know who you had in mind with your thread about Nons having affairs   

My wife is in counseling with a therapist that has a lot of experience in treating people with BPD.  I go with her to the sessions occasionally (at my wife's and the therapist's request) to give my side of the story so the therapist is getting the whole picture.  Unfortunately, my wife just sent me an email saying that she has cancelled the appointment for this week because she is too busy with school.  This is not the time to be canceling therapy appointments.

I have found only two places in our area that have DBT programs.  One is a scary mental hospital (I have visited there for professional reasons) and the other is a mental health agency.  The stigma of going to the mental hospital along with the severity of the people housed there rules that option out in my mind. 

I am on the board of directors for the mental health agency (ironic, I know) and that complicates my wife going to that program.  Regardless, I haven't ruled out the program at the mental health agency.   

[istayed]

Well, that's what I thought, ruthie...I just couldn't fit in why a lady from the dogpark is bringing you something to read. And why can't she just give it to Liz? Okay--enough prying from me. [Maybe it's a paternity suit!] We have dogparks here, too, but we have no dogs right now. Maybe we could start a catpark...well, maybe not!

Caribou, I think your thread on setbacks must have been on target. Something's going on in her head--could be the baby thing, as you suggested. Whatever it is, I know how upsetting it must be for you. God, "shrieking and hitting the walls then hitting herself against the walls then eventually threw herself on the floor," this must've been scary. Thank God none of the kids were there--seeing her that out of control would have been a terrifying sight, even for older kids. It sounds as though she was in danger of hurting herself.

I'm distressed that she's cancelling MH appts. This sounds like an after-effect of the previous incident. What do you think she'd say if you told her you're worried about her. (Of course we're pre-supposing that she's calmed down sufficiently to not just say, "I don't care what you think!") That you're concerned about her cancelling T. That she scares you when she behaves that way. What do you think she'd say if you suggested that--for her welfare and for the welfare of your kids--she might need to talk with someone like a psychiatrist? Maybe you could locate a good one whose office isn't associated with either the scary mental hospital [we have one of those in our town, too!] or the MH agency where you have ties.

Just some thoughts,
spam

[John Galt]

No no Spamalicious,

The 80 year old brought it to my house and gave it to Liz,and liz wanted to fax it to me !
Its not prying ,its caring !

How about starting a Bpd park ?

[Mollyd]

Too funny ruthie - but couldn't you be more inclusive, and make it a "Spouse's with serious mental health issues Park", so I could bring mine too?

justa thought!

Caribou - I can completely relate to how hard it is to take care of yourself.  I have a terrible time with it as well.  It takes practice and intentionality (how's that for a word?).  Little steps man!  Hang in there!

Spams you're still crackin me up!

[istayed]

How about starting a Bpd park ?

Only if we can keep 'em all on their leashes...

[Caribou]

Spam- I think that my wife's current therapist has been making good progress with her and, at this time, there is not a need to get another professional involved.  If things continue the way they are going, then I think we need to revisit the question of medication (she is not currently on any medication other than synthroid) with her current therapist (which would require a referral to a psychiatrist).

I am going to give my wife some time and see if she reschedules the appointment for this week.

The paternity suit comment made me smile.  Thanks.

[John Galt]

Ok ok park lovers ,we can have 2 parks. with leashes and without leashes.Mind you,In respect to our own Mollys' request,lets just make it a virtual park for people with a mentally ill spouse.

I am going to post an interesting website here which is usually posted by ''ABIGAIL''. It is called www.biologicalunhappiness.com

This doctor claims that medication and therapy is very valuable. That being said,my therapist ( whose full time job is with the BPD clinic in Ontario) says that medication is not necessary for BPDs.She says that medication would be to treat the concurrent disorder,not the BPD.She claims that extensive therapy with a willing BPD is all thats needed.

2 thoughts for you nons to marinate on.

Marc

[Caribou]

It has been five days now of the "silent treatment" and she didn't reschedule the counseling appointment this week.  I am doing okay when I am away from the house, but when we are both home, it is like a thick funk hanging in the air.  I can't wait to get away in the mornings and dread going home at night.

I am sure she will either reopen the discussion about camp or act like nothing happened at some point, but who knows when.

[Mollyd]

Caribou,

That just sucks! (How's that for not-so profound words of wisdom?). 

How are you doing at taking care of yourself?  Gym, movies, good book? If you're going to endure this *stuff* - maybe look at it like enjoying the break?  Justa thought.

Molls.

[izzymae]

Caribou...why don't you go to camp for a week? like right now? or fishing...or to see family or something to get away from the silent treatment...that is childish and ridiculous.

Aren't you both adults?

Hah! just kidding. I know this scenario all too well. I know that you are both adults but one is stuck in the emotional mind of a child. I really am sorry you are having such a rough time of it. Sounds like your wife is in OZ right now and this is the part of the cycle. Maybe it is something like the baby thing setting her off...or maybe it's just her brain cycling through the mental illness. My exBPD GF would go 3 months and them she just had to come unraveled and take everyone down with her. Over the smallest most insignificant things most of the time

Does your wife have a set pattern like this that you could pin point? If so, it might be good to bring that up with her in T together. Or at least keep a calendar for your own personal sanity so that you know what is coming up and you can "prepare" for it as best you can...

[Caribou]

Molls- I played my favorite aerobic sport yesterday after work and the day before and I am always reading something.  I also have an individual therapy session next week that will help.  Thanks for the "profound" words; they are appreciated.

izzymae- My wife used to claim (before I knew about BPD) that her mood swings were hormonal.  I charted her moods and it was pretty apparent that they didn't correspond to her periods (since the episodes were usually weekly).  She had been doing so well.  She had been "even" for a couple of months without much apparent cycling.

I wish I could run away and camp or fish or something but I need to be here to make sure the kids are being taken care of and that the negativity is not getting directed towards them.  However, taking my kids to see family is a good suggestion that I will try to make happen this weekend.  Thanks.

[izzymae]

Good Caribou...you take care of yourself and the kids...I'm sending you a BIG VIRTUAL SOLO FISHING TRIP...on a beautiful river somewhere out west!

[spouseofbp]

Hi Caribou,

It has been five days now of the "silent treatment" and she didn't reschedule the counseling appointment this week.  I am doing okay when I am away from the house, but when we are both home, it is like a thick funk hanging in the air.  I can't wait to get away in the mornings and dread going home at night.

oh how I feel for you - I felt the funk, and lived this way too, before finally moving out.  I am in 'silent treatment' now ('quoting T' thread explains)

During the weeks before I moved out, she would keep her door locked.  I had no choice but the guest room.  I remember how I tip-toed out early to get to the office before they arose. And her emails asking me to "stay away" at night until her & daughter were in bed.  So I would tip-toe home & find the bedroom door locked again.  oooh I don't miss those days!

When she was in this mode I wouldn't even see her for days.  Living in the same house! Amazing, how she could reject me, so completely. 

Of course after I moved out, the re-engagements began.  Her silent treatment is fairly intense this time - no calls from her for 4 days now, since she hung up on me in rage.

I know you're so confused.  How can we not be?  Back-sliding seems to be such a regular occurence with this illness. 

1.  we feel we (& our bp) are making headway - life is great!
2.  we detect a slight change in wind direction - only a second or less warning - metamorphosis occurs
3.  the bp dragon rears its fire-breathing head & roars, spewing flame & destruction
4.  we are smitten down, our swords & shield melted by the heat
5.  the dragon disappears, taking our prince/princess with them after consuming them
6.  silent (treatment) surrounds all, as we view, and feel - the smoldering carnage and relational ruins

How about starting a Bpd park?

Would that stand for B-arking P-ooping D-og park?  hmm...we are the park - our bp's bark at us & poop on us.  And treat us like dogs.

[Caribou]

Thanks spouse,  My wife isn't usually one for the silent treatment.  She wants to talk about what ever the issue is, ad nauseam.  I hope your new apartment turns your life around and I hope your wife can make that turn with you.

My wife broke the silence today to tell me that my suggestion that she not go to camp with her daughter was the meanest thing I have ever said to her and that I hurt her very deeply.  I told her that I did not say it to hurt her and in retrospect, I wonder if I could have phrased my thoughts better.  She went on to say that she was sorry that she had reacted so violently.

She has a therapy appointment next week but said that she does not want me to go with her.  I told her that I was happy to go or not; it was up to her.  She said that she needs to work with the therapist to find ways not to allow things that I say to devastate her.  I agree.

[spouseofbp]

She said that she needs to work with the therapist to find ways not to allow things that I say to devastate her.

What a positive statement!  I'm happy for you, and proud of her - for admitting this.  Sounds like a step in the right direction - good luck.  Nobody knows how to push our buttons like our SO's.  But they're OUR buttons!  And so we have the choice of how we react when they get pushed!

You probably never say things to intentionally devastate her...it's just how she perceives the meaning & source of them...and how she reacts when she feels HER button get pushed.  In fact she may be helping you push HER button, because she is so accustomed to that kind of feeling...maybe she almost EXPECTS it.

[istayed]

My wife broke the silence today to tell me that my suggestion that she not go to camp with her daughter was the meanest thing I have ever said to her and that I hurt her very deeply.  I told her that I did not say it to hurt her and in retrospect, I wonder if I could have phrased my thoughts better.  She went on to say that she was sorry that she had reacted so violently.

Hi Caribou,

I agree with spouse that it's her perceptions that are causing her to feel "devastated." Your wondering whether you could have phrased your thougthts better seems off the mark to me. I know we sometimes err, but based on your description of the event, you weren't mean or anything. Please don't start walking on eggshells about every little thing you say.

Hmm, come to think of it, seems that her reaction in this case is somewhat akin to the reactions of Jimfly's wife--everything he did or said hurt her terribly. Speaking of JF, I hope he's doing okay. Haven't seen him around lately.

I'm glad she apologized, Caribou, and that she wants to work on it. Those are two things to be thankful for!

spam

[Caribou]

Thanks spam and spouseofbp.

You know what is weird?  When she told me that the suggestion that she not go to camp with her daughter was the meanest thing I had ever said to her, I thought to myself, "That is quite a compliment"!  If that is the worst thing I have ever said, then generally I must do a pretty good job of not saying hurtful things.

I told her during our discussion, that I did not say that to hurt her.  In my whole life, I have rarely ever said something to someone (including her) with the intention of hurting them.

During one point in the original discussion about camp, I said "Do you think your daughter feels smothered by you?"  (she knows in her heart that the answer is yes).  That was the point that she started raging.  When I mentioned that I could have phrased things differently, that was the phrase that I was thinking about.  I still feel like the point needed to be made, but maybe there was a gentler way to make the point.

I don't see it as walking on eggshells (tell me if I am off base here) if I make the needed points but soften the language.  I think that approach is necessary with most everyone regardless of whether they have BPD or not.

I, too, have noticed jimfly's absence and have wondered about him.  He hasn't been "on" since April 10.

[Mollyd]

Hey Caribou,

Great question about the eggshell walk.  I think it is always OK to consider how we are saying something - and how the person on the receiving end will hear it.  To the extent it is too much work, or tip-toeing around something - then, it becomes the eggshell thing.

One tact I use, as I often feel concerned about saying stuff that will be perceived as mean - is, I'll say,

"I have some thoughts about what you are saying, let me know when we could talk about it . . . "; or more specifically,

"I'm reacting to what you are saying about your daughter, and camp, and, I want the conversation to be healthy (constructive, not hurtful, fill in the blank), when would be a good time for us to talk about it?"

Usually if my partner is in blow-up mode - they blow up at this point - so the issue remains them, not what I've said, because I haven't said anything yet.  I find it heads off big (day long) junk.

This is a statement that my thoughts are important, and I will talk about them, however, I believe I am giving my partner time to get emotionally prepared and ready for feedback.  I know it works wel for me.

Good luck.

M.

me too about jimfly - if you're still around jf - check in!

[istayed]

During one point in the original discussion about camp, I said "Do you think your daughter feels smothered by you?"  (she knows in her heart that the answer is yes).

I don't see it as walking on eggshells (tell me if I am off base here)

Nope, I think you're right on base. I can see that she might view your question about smothering as an arrow directed at her heart. Without backing off on the utter absurdity of her going to camp, I agree that you could have softened it by saying something along the lines of "I think it's dumb to want to go to camp with her--I understand that you want to protect her, but how do you think she'd feel if she's the only kid accompanied by an adult?"

'Course I guess that could be considered hurtful, too. Sometimes there's no way around hurtful stuff if you're sticking with reality.

I've wondered whether JF was the subject of MoGlow's positive ju-ju message from April 4. JF, if you're out there lurking, we're wishing you well!

spam

[spouseofbp]

I can see that she might view your question about smothering as an arrow directed at her heart.

yes I agree.  And it parallels with the phone conversation I just had with bpw.  EVERYTHING that we say, no matter how prepared, practiced, and well-chosen words we use...they hear it as a personal attack.  When will they learn it's not all about them?

Hey Spam, you're gonna get your 4th star today!