Is she cheating? How do I ask?

[Think About It...]

kinda in a void folks.  She is 'CRAZY-MAKING' big-time.

- accuses me of not being accountable to her, yet doesn't want me to call
- I talk nice w/calm voice, she interrupts & yells
- last night she called me & started blaming again, all negative.  I said simply, "so you don't want to work on the marriage."  "NO, I never said that."  Oh.
- 1 hour ago she called, "you live your life & I'll live mine!  LIVE YOUR SINGLE LIFE!  I'm going out all night tonight & I'm not going to tell you a thing about it!"  ok.
- "It's all YOUR fault.  YOU are the reason we are here today!"  ok...so you aren't willing to take ANY responsibility for your part?  "NO, ANYTHING I DID IS A RESULT OF YOU CAUSING IT!"
- "YOU wanted to be single!  YOU moved out - that was the happiest day for me!"  oh...remember that morning when you said to me, "HOW CAN YOU LIVE HERE WHEN NO ONE WANTS YOU HERE?"

I know she's out-of-control right now.  I am just maintaining by working hard.

[spouseofbp]

kinda in a void folks.  She is 'CRAZY-MAKING' big-time.

- accuses me of not being accountable to her, yet doesn't want me to call
- I talk nice w/calm voice, she interrupts & yells
- last night she called me & started blaming again, all negative.  I said simply, "so you don't want to work on the marriage."  "NO, I never said that."  Oh.
- 1 hour ago she called, "you live your life & I'll live mine!  LIVE YOUR SINGLE LIFE!  I'm going out all night tonight & I'm not going to tell you a thing about it!"  ok.
- "It's all YOUR fault.  YOU are the reason we are here today!"  ok...so you aren't willing to take ANY responsibility for your part?  "NO, ANYTHING I DID IS A RESULT OF YOU CAUSING IT!"
- "YOU wanted to be single!  YOU moved out - that was the happiest day for me!"  oh...remember that morning when you said to me, "HOW CAN YOU LIVE HERE WHEN NO ONE WANTS YOU HERE?"

I know she's out-of-control right now.  I am just maintaining by working hard.

[John Galt]

Spouse,

I only want to comment on one thing.

Engaging at this moment is a total waste of time,total.

Having a conversation like this will only raise blood pressure,and my advice in these moments is detatchment.Detachment for your own emotional well being my friend.

I have had many conversations like yours above and it always ended with me breaking a phone or my hand on a wall or something equally disruptive.

Take care of you,worry about your control more than her lack thereof,trust me,been there ,done that.

Marc

[spouseofbp]

Gotcha Ruth.

In fact I am much more aware now of my triggers, and my hot buttons, and my reactive tendencies.  And I've got them in check (excluding my 'drive-by' Friday night).  I don't want to throw things or break hand.  1-2 years ago yes. 

Maybe it's my 'indifference' settling in.  When she rages now - I pull the phone away & let her 'talk to the air'

Then I just say, 'please don't yell at me'.  I really am more in control of my reactions much, much more that before. 

I talked to her best? friend this morning - she said, "she's really upset with me right now"...her best friend who's getting married in June.  So my guess is, anyone in my wiife's path may get damaged by her current tsunami.

It really is the game she's playing now.  I WIN-I WIN-U LOSE.  Just like the accountability thing.  Expects me to be accountable, but not to contact her.  Hello?   Hell w/her & her bp games.

[JoannaK]

Never argue with a BPD person...  Never.  It is totally pointless, spouse.  If you want to try to discuss something with a BPD person, do it when she is calm and more approachable...  Unfortunately, when things are going well, you don't want to rock the boat.  I know that very well...  as marc would say, "been there, done that."  But these roundabout discussions are useless to both of you.

So...  what can you do?  Well, spouse, you have to decide how long you want this sham of a marriage to continue.  Maybe a couple of good days and some sex every week or two is enough for you.  If so, just understand why you are there and leave it at that.  Maybe that's o.k. for now.  If so, then decide how long you will tolerate the status quo.  But I think you need to take a deep breath, not contact her for awhile...  No texting, no voicemails or messaging, none of it.  Maybe for 3-4 days.  Take that time to try to clear the air and see how you feel about things.  

It does seem that the more you push, the more she backs away.  And then she pulls you back and pushes you away again... at will.  And that is hard to deal with, spouse.  Believe me, I know.  

It's difficult to read people here at BPDFamily describe truly shtty relationships with truly lousy abusive behavior by the BPD type...  and then the non starts praising the person and the relationship to the stars.  I understand the dichotomy, as someone with BPD/npd can be so charming, so sweet, so kind, so loving...  when it's in their best interest to be so.  And it's easy for us foolish nons to interpret that behavior as "that's the way he/she really is!" when 80 or 90 or even 50 of the behavior is not kind, loving, charming, or any of that.

It's also a very non thing to assume that we know what the BPD really is feeling --- or what is best for the BPD person.  "Deep inside, I know he/she really loves me."  I actually felt that also, and I was surprised at how quickly he moved on to wife #4...  despite his claims of hating marriage and his assertions that he would never marry again, how much I hurt him, bla bla bla.  Love is as love does.  If she really loved you (if she were capable of anything approaching real love), she wouldn't treat you like dirt.  If your relationship were in trouble, as it is, she would be happy to take steps to get it back together... or she would welcome the chance to leave once and for all.  

Your life with her will continue as it is, sometimes great, sometimes truly lousy, until you decide to change the situation.  Actually, it will probably get worse...  the good times will be fewer and far between.  That was my experience.  

About your pastor's series on love and relationships:

- YOU can't change other people!
- You can only change YOURSELF

He's got that right.

- It's never just about the other person

That's true...  unfortunately, too many nons interpret that to mean, "I must be better and do more things.  I must keep turning the other cheek. "  We're already doing 90% of the work in the relationship, and we interpret this to mean that we must do 100%.  I doubt that's what he meant.

- Take responsibility for YOUR own emotions and happiness

Yep...  No one else can really make us miserable.  And if someone we love is making us miserable.. through abuse, through cheating, by constant arguing, whatever, it is up to us to figure out a way to get out of the miserable situation... one way or the other.  Again, I think too many nons would interpret this to mean:  "I should accept whatever is going on and not let it get to me.  It's not good to be angry or sad. "  I doubt that's what he meant.

-

Love people unconditionally, no matter how they treat you

Love is never an excuse for tolerating an abusive or a shtty relationship.  It doesn't mean you necessarily stop loving the person, but it does mean that you leave the person.  If someone punches you in the face, you can still feel love for the person as you either walk away or punch him back.  That's the way I see it.

- Focus on YOUR reactions - not others or external circumstances
- Offer forgiveness as an antidote for anger
- Forgive to avoid hindering your relationship with God
- Avoid delaying the process - act today

Forgiveness is a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean you keep the person around.  "I forgive you, but I never want to see you again" is a perfectly reasonable response.

- People push our buttons.  But there OUR buttons.  WE decide how we react when our buttons get pushed.
 

None of us are superhuman.  For instance, if we have a supposedly committed partner who is flirting with someone else outrageously right in front of us, we're going to feel angry and get jealous.  I don't think that there is anything really good about someone who doesn't get upset in such a situation.  If the person truly doesn't care that his/her partner is really coming on to someone else, he probably is past the point of caring about the relationship very much.  

*********************

I was writing as spouse was posting.

[spouseofbp]

Thank you Joanna for your time & forthcomings.  Everything you say is true.

If your relationship were in trouble, as it is, she would be happy to take steps to get it back together... or she would welcome the chance to leave once and for all. 

This is the mystery.  You see, she doesn't do either!  She has been on the courthouse steps for divorce paper signings, yet turned around & called out to me.  She has attempted to go to counseling, yet ran away after 1-3 sessions w/each T.  She's told me countless times she doesn't want "to see me - hear me - talk to me - touch me - smell me"...yet 2-3 days later she's dressing in seductive lengerie because she wants "my (her) co_k" and all the other erotic "please fu_k me" talk.  A little wine & she plays her lustful needs into my hands.

Is she hanging around for my dental insurance, as her vanity has her in the middle of a several thousand dollar long-term orthodontia procedure?  I've seen the EOB's, they're not cheap.

What is keeping her from signing the decree?  With all the whining, blaming, loathing, complaining, threatening, rejecting etc...why doesn't she just DO IT?

Because I think she needs a 'whipping boy'.  Little does she know it won't be me any longer. 

Next time we sleep together, IF there is a next time, she's not gettin' any.  Let her find new supply.  Let another poor man's hair turn gray.

I have others I could call.  Others who would distract me from this woman.  But then it would be ME who fu_ked up.  Just what she is waiting for me to do.  Just what she taunts me with.  Just the justification she needs to start the schmear campaign.   I really don't want to give her what she expects.  Not to do what every other man (allegedly) did to her - cheat

But I would ever touched another woman, I'd have to erase any hopes for her from my mind.  And then I could move on.

[warrior]

What I am noticing is how you are running your entire life according to your wife = to the point of stalking, obsessing over text messages, cars in the driveway, etc.  Do you think she spends 10 seconds living her life according to you?  I doubt it.  I know mine doesn't.  IMO you have given someone else permission (whether they even realize it) to make your decisions for you.  I invite you to do some work to find the things that really elevate you as a human, the things that you do that improve the world around you.  This does not mean saving or caretaking your BP.  What it means is finding your own power and living in it.  This is not easy but the payoff is astounding.  Good Luck!

[JMR]

This is the mystery.  You see, she doesn't do either!  She has been on the courthouse steps for divorce paper signings, yet turned around & called out to me.  She has attempted to go to counseling, yet ran away after 1-3 sessions w/each T.  She's told me countless times she doesn't want "to see me - hear me - talk to me - touch me - smell me"...yet 2-3 days later she's dressing in seductive lengerie because she wants "my (her) co_k" and all the other erotic "please fu_k me" talk.  A little wine & she plays her lustful needs into my hands.

No mystery there, spouse.  You know:  love/hate, push/pull, go away/don't leave.  It's normal operating procedure. Most likely, she won't actually leave you until she has a reliable replacement in tow. But, . . . even after they leave and move on to someone else, it continues (as I've discovered), with the re-engaging/I don't want you routine. I've discovered that my x can make me just as miserable in a hour of re-engaging every month as she could when I was with her 24/7 -- without any of the benefits. I expect that if my x were to die before me (not likely, given my present state), she'd periodically pop out of the grave just to keep her male universe guessing.

You realize, I hope, that it will never change, and never end, except to the extent you end it.  It sounds like you've figured out how to do it, so what are you waiting for -- her permission?  Bear in mind, these words are coming from someone who wishes he had taken decisive action a long, long time ago.  If you wait for her to take action, you're guaranteed not to like it.  I'll let you in on a secret -- they don't act with our interests in mind.

[spouseofbp]

I know.  I know. 

The treatment I have taken, she would not take.  Warrior, you may not read it in this post , but I have improved greatly since discovering BPDFamily.  3 steps forward, 1 back.

Sometimes it's "venting" just to type brainlessly, and let my fingers find the words impulsively.  My wishes for my wife & I are not reality...

...yet.  See, I haven't quite given up yet!  Guess that's why I'm still 'committed'. 

in time, in time.  None of us are 'done' until 'we' are done.

[Silent Alarm]

Because I think she needs a 'whipping boy'.  Little does she know it won't be me any longer. 

Next time we sleep together, IF there is a next time, she's not gettin' any. 

Spouse, I have selected this quote from your above post, not to criticize or mock you, but to point out the absurdity of your thinking right now.  You are so turned around and confused, that you actually think that the above sentences are actually rational or logical.  I've been following this story, but holding my tongue.

Spouse, you are in danger.  You need to get distance, therapy, and help... IMMEDIATELY.  Your pastor said "act today", and he was right about that. 

You have to take a few minutes, stop, sit somewhere quiet, and come to terms with the fact that you are not thinking straight right now.  Forget about who's fault it is, and forget about trying to sort it all out.  You are being made crazy by this situation, and as it goes on, you will lose your mind more and more.  You need to take some steps to reverse this process.  It's not about you trying harder, or thinking of things differently.  It's about stopping this process which is destroying your mind.

[John Galt]

Spouse,

I really believe that Silent Alarms advice is wonderful and very needed and I hope for you as a cyber friend can really understand and follow the advice,

We care,
marc

[istayed]

Hi Spouse,

Just saw your response to Kewfun. You sounded as though you've landed back on solid ground. Please keep us posted.

spam

[Caribou]

Hi Spouse,

Based on your posts, it seems like you did everything in your power to try to make it work.  I am sorry to see you headed to Divorcing and Separating but I know that in the end, your life will be better once you have left this nightmare behind.  Good luck spouse.  We will be here if you need anything.

Caribou

[spouseofbp]

Thanks everyone & for being brutally blunt as well S.A.

I think I am on more solid ground today - as I did not give up my power to her.  I asked her on email: How soon can you have your attorney send me papers?

She replied: "You get the papers when you give me half the money."  (for her attorney!)

I didn't think it worked that way.  No kids (Thank God!), no joint assets.  She's got nothing (legally) on me, & vice versa.  Should be simple.  Except for that thing called BPD.

Oh yes, there were a few blaming emails & conversations this morning. I tried to talk positive, suggesting counseling etc.  But she was an immovable mountain.  So I did a flip & started asking her to 'get it done'.  I told her, "if she wants it, I could not stand in her way"

She called a little later & started ranting.  I calmly said, "if you continue to raise your voice to me I'll hang up..."  she calmed down immediately...for all of 10 seconds.

As her voice got louder again and gained fury, I said, "you're raising your voice again - bye-bye"  and hung up

it actually felt pretty good!

Time for NC?

Survey says...

[warrior]

way to go, spouse.  think of it this way...would you let any schmoe talk to you over the phone the way she does?  probably not.  You don't deserve to be screamed at, pure and simple.  When my wife hangs up on me, which happens from time to time, I immediately call her back and tell her "don't hang up on me - if you don't want to talk any more, say goodbye."  She might not do it but I feel better - I have just set a boundary.  Same thing with how you handled that phone call - boundaries!

[Caribou]

spouseofbp,

I am not sure I understand the attorney situation entirely.  It appears that you might be having her attorney draw up the papers then you will sign them.  I have seen that sort of thing work in amicable (if there is such a thing) divorces but would not recommend it for you.  You each need to have your own attorney and in your case, I would recommend hiring the best one you can find.

I did have to pay a portion of my exwife's attorney's fees but that was ordered by the judge (due to differences in income).  I wouldn't agree to pay her attorney fees without consulting an attorney first.

If you are truly headed towards a divorce, I would vote for NC and I would not wait for her to file.  I would hire an attorney and file for divorce.  I honestly cannot think of anything positive that will come out of continued contact with her if you plan to get divorced.

Caribou

[jtonline30]

I think I am on more solid ground today - as I did not give up my power to her.

Spouse, it's tough reading through your posts because it brings back all the frustration and sadness that I felt for a long time.  I finally left it all behind.  I don't need her as much as I need my self-esteem and my sanity.

It took me some time to realize that I had been emasculated.  I would win a tiny little victory in the relationship and feel like Superman.  There would be some faint glimmer of hope (yay she said she might think about maybe moving back depending on how things are a few months from now!) and I felt high again.

Then I realized this game will never end.  There will never be a happy ending.  She will never change.  I've given it 110% and I'm still laying in the gutter.  Nothing to win and nothing left to lose.  Once you accept that there is nothing you can do to change the way things are, it's a lot easier to walk away.  Just do it.  Not just for you, but for her.  Give her the opportunity to move on.  If you love her then what's best for her may also be what's best for you.  It's probably what's best for both of you.

[JoannaK]

Spouse, you do sound stronger...  but I still sense a type of game-playing here.  Are you trying to escalate this hoping that she will take you back? 

I agree that filing papers should not be in her hands.  You may not have any joint assets, but, if the property of her house has gone up during the time you were married, you may be entitled to a percentage of the increase in value, especially if you were living with her as her husband and paying her something towards the bills.  You may not want to get anything out of the house, but you should find out what you are entitled to. 

If you are not seriously done, then perhaps give her (in your mind) a period of time to decide she wants to seriously work on this (though I think you've given her enough time already).  But then go.  Make a decision, don't let yourself be swayed by some  temporary goodness on her part, and move on.  It is easier if the two parties can work things out in a divorce.  But BPD's are unreasonable, illogical, and inconsistent... if someone is unreasonable, illogical, and inconsistent in a marriage, why do we assume that we can work things out with them in a divorce situation? 

So...  be honest with yourself.  Are you hoping that talk of divorce papers will pull her back to you?  Or are you simply done?  If you are done, call an attorney, get papers drawn up yourself and move on. 

[John Galt]

Spouse ,

I have to ditto Jk here and add something as well.

You get back togeather, you divorce her,or you wait and see.
Those are the 3 choices,obviously.

I will not even attempt to advise which choice you make,its yours.

What I will say though is that if you decide divorce you would be well advised to understand the legal landscape here.It would be an excellent investment on your part to interview 3 lawyers and ask questions and seek education ( I do not know if you have done this yet) and then choose one or interview more.Many lawyers will give you a free hour for an initial consultation.Also do research in your state or wherever you are.
This is invaluable !

Lots of bad things can happen here to the unprepared esp. with a BPD spouse who lies,and cheats.

I would strike first if I wished to divorce ,

Luck to you my friend,

Marc

[spouseofbp]

hmmm...

she text me nice things last night, surprisingly. 

I filed Oct '04, after we agreed mutually.  10 days no contact, then re-engagement.  Back on/off/on/off coaster ever since. 

Out of 33 months of marriage, we've been under the same roof for 7 months.  2 move-in/move-outs during that time.  But together on & off every 2-10 days.  Wow!

what the hell is keeping us together?  fight, make-up.  fight, make-up. cycle. cycle.   "must be love"

I was married previously for 12 years and only moved out once...at the end.

Yesterday I just folded in my hand, and submitted to her 'wanting out'.  Going 'with the grain' instead of 'against the grain'.   When she's immoveable, all the positive statements,  relationship-building comments I make to try & "help us",  are merely a challenge to her - to dig in her boots even more into the mud.

When I submit & say, 'ok, let's do it, if that's what you want.  When can we meet to sign?'.  I basically call her bluff.  THEN she softens. 

So see folks, our "filing" has been in place for 19 months.  The case has been sitting at the courthouse gathering dust.  With a final decree signing, it could be done in 10 days - simply with a judges stamp - no 60-day waiting period   I've consulted w/attorneys who told me since my time in her house was minimum, I would not be entitled to any equity position. 

Plus she is geared up for an upcoming court date with her ex already.  He loves to go to court.  I don't want to get nasty, IF & WHEN it happens for us.  She would let loose with both barrels, if not have a breakdown. I don't see any need for that.

I'll tell you one thing.  If we'd never gotten married, we could still be "dating".  The "marriage" thing & "living together" thing definitely created a atmosphere of conflict!  I believe the BP behavior escalated enormously, as sub-conciously she viewed me as some sort of threat to her, being in HER house...an easy target to grab while passing by - because I was THERE.

Marriage requires us to prepare 4 types of "rings":
* The Engagement Ring
* The Wedding Ring
* The Suffe-Ring
* The Endu-Ring

Where's my time-machine when I need it?  I want to go back to just "dating" her.  She's my best friend, when she's wearing her Dr. Jekll outfit.

[JoannaK]

spouse, some people do have these terribly dysfunctional relationships.  Some people can only stay in a relationship if it is up/down off/on.  Otherwise life is "boring" and we find a reason to be tired of the consistent person... maybe we no longer find them sexually exciting... while we find the person who keeps us on a string a sexual "find".

You may simply not be cut out to be happy in a marriage, spouse.  If the partner is consistent, she is boring and unexciting and dull and uninspiring sexually.  If the partner is inconsistent and abusive, then you are upset that she isn't consistent, but you are sexually attracted to her.  Perhaps if your exwife treated you with disdain, the way the BPD woman does, you'd still be with her like a lapdog. 

You've been playing this dance with her for the whole time you were married.  If you had never married, you'd still be trying to talk her into marriage.  But now you blame marriage for your problems instead of blaming your mutual dysfunctions that have brought you together and kept you ... both of you... hanging on.

It's your life spouse.  If you get divorced, you will more than likely wind up dating again... and then perhaps getting married again after that.  Some people do that.  That's not something that I would choose, but that may simply be the way you are. 

I'm not trying to be harsh, spouse, but if you weren't basically happy in this situation, you'd be out by now...  For good.