Something just isn't making sense...

[Think About It...]

My SO is a non.  He posts here as well.  He knows who I am at The Nook and he backs up everything I say, with the exception that he sometimes thinks I tell it a little too much like it is.   :evil:  Oh, and he thinks my spelling sucks.  Regardless, on with the show.

So with the understanding that I too have lived this life, I think there are a few nons here, that need to hear something. 

What Happy said, about hurting with inactivity, that is ABSOLUTELY the truth.  In your non quest to be the good guy, the nice guy, blah blah blah you need to explicitly remember this:

You are NOT the nice guy.  You are damaging your wife beyond repair every God darn time you bury your head in the sand in regards to your ex.  To be exact, YOU ARE THE BAD GUY.  At least your ex is BPD, SHE has an excuse.  And lets face facts here, WTH WOUDLN'T she ask crazy things, chances are, you are gonna do it.  Seems like the rational thing to do if you ask me. 

If you keep this behaviour up, your wife will eventually grow to hate you because what you are doing is tantamount to abuse.  Make no mistake about that.

...but Glenda the good Witch came along.  yeah the woman I first met over 5 years ago...sweet, attractive, my daughters mother etc...being so reasonable.

and yeah I blew it. I fell for it hook line and sinker...my bad.

Bear, think about that first quote, and just try to imagine how much saying something like could destroy your present relationship.  I am astounded.  Simply astounded.


And I agree with the previous poster, "my bad"? Poor Drex :'( To reduce what she went through with "my bad"?

I am also in that same spot--my wife tells me that such-and-such is going to happen . . . I say, 'certainly she wouldn't do that' . . . end of the day, well, yes she could.  And did.  And does.

Many a non have learned the hard way that there is no use helping someone who will not help themselves. 

And I'm glad that you were able to help your little girl.

Make no mistake about this:  You DID NOT help your little girl.  You helped reduced her to a pawn in a sick sexual game played by your ex.  Shame on you for allowing your child to be used like that.



Drex, I am sorry for everything you have gone through.  Please remember that there are alot of us here who absolutely understand what you are going through, and are here if you need us.

God Speed.

Undone.

[undone]

My SO is a non.  He posts here as well.  He knows who I am at The Nook and he backs up everything I say, with the exception that he sometimes thinks I tell it a little too much like it is.   :evil:  Oh, and he thinks my spelling sucks.  Regardless, on with the show.

So with the understanding that I too have lived this life, I think there are a few nons here, that need to hear something. 

What Happy said, about hurting with inactivity, that is ABSOLUTELY the truth.  In your non quest to be the good guy, the nice guy, blah blah blah you need to explicitly remember this:

You are NOT the nice guy.  You are damaging your wife beyond repair every God darn time you bury your head in the sand in regards to your ex.  To be exact, YOU ARE THE BAD GUY.  At least your ex is BPD, SHE has an excuse.  And lets face facts here, WTH WOUDLN'T she ask crazy things, chances are, you are gonna do it.  Seems like the rational thing to do if you ask me. 

If you keep this behaviour up, your wife will eventually grow to hate you because what you are doing is tantamount to abuse.  Make no mistake about that.

...but Glenda the good Witch came along.  yeah the woman I first met over 5 years ago...sweet, attractive, my daughters mother etc...being so reasonable.

and yeah I blew it. I fell for it hook line and sinker...my bad.

Bear, think about that first quote, and just try to imagine how much saying something like could destroy your present relationship.  I am astounded.  Simply astounded.


And I agree with the previous poster, "my bad"? Poor Drex :'( To reduce what she went through with "my bad"?

I am also in that same spot--my wife tells me that such-and-such is going to happen . . . I say, 'certainly she wouldn't do that' . . . end of the day, well, yes she could.  And did.  And does.

Many a non have learned the hard way that there is no use helping someone who will not help themselves. 

And I'm glad that you were able to help your little girl.

Make no mistake about this:  You DID NOT help your little girl.  You helped reduced her to a pawn in a sick sexual game played by your ex.  Shame on you for allowing your child to be used like that.



Drex, I am sorry for everything you have gone through.  Please remember that there are alot of us here who absolutely understand what you are going through, and are here if you need us.

God Speed.

Undone.

[laurena82]

In Bear's defense, at least he was honest at sharing what happened with Drex.  What's even worse is when they succumb, then hide it from you , because they realized they did wrong in your eyes, but still have this guilt thing going that BPD can push buttons to get what they want...

Other than that, youre completely on target, Undone

I could share stories of my own, but just dont care to relive them right now ...

but you are definitely on target

[SadButHoping]

Brief sidetrack on the main discussion:

undone:

After thinking about my statement yesterday "I'm glad you were able to help your little girl", something nagged at me about it all night long.  (Computer at home is down right now so I couldn't re-post til I could get back to the office).  Didn't sleep much actually.

You've hit the point directly:  I think your statement to Bear is 100% correct in the long term, and mine only in the very short.  Yes, he did help her with the meds and to get to sleep.  But that's only the face of the problem, the excuse for the re-engagement manuever.  Any good parent would have done that, and her Mom should have done it without the show.  It would not have hurt the child to say, "No, she's at your house and that's your job".  Not only didn't this happen, but the mom put the child into play just like she served a volleyball.  And Bear got sucked in and hit her right back across the net.  Boing boing boing.  Keep the game going.  Damn.

An additional problem is that this child is 2 and can't really understand a lot of what goes on around her yet.  She knows that she's at Mom's house . . . but she's not feeling well and <poof> here's Daddy!  So . . . Daddy doesn't live her, but all Mommy has to do is call and he'll coming running?  Wow!  What manipulation techniques did that just teach the little one?

I cannot thank you enough for the slap in the face you've given me in this thread.  You have helped me immeasurably in my self-analysis and rebuilding process.  I have to admit that it hurts some to realize the errors, but the truth is that way at times.  Thank you for helping me grow.  And thank you for my DW who has subjected herself voluntarily to being with me as it happens.

SBH

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[MoGlo]

Just a bit of caution here:  Some comments made in this thread strike me as being overly harsh and condemning, and that is not necessary.  It is a direct contradiction of our board guidelines.  Let's not get caught up in he said/she said, who's right or wrong and then condemning the guilty party.  Who are we to judge what went right/wrong when not one of us was even there?

Please remember that you may be reading your own situation into this one, thus triggering a whole lot of stored up feelings on your part.  That does not make it all right to attack another member, ever.  Let's focus on helping our members deal with the fallout and preventing future incidents such as just happened, okay?

[laurena82]

An additional problem is that this child is 2 and can't really understand a lot of what goes on around her yet.  She knows that she's at Mom's house . . . but she's not feeling well and <poof> here's Daddy!

This isnt specific to BPD that I know of, but there are ALOT of dysfunctional households around where people "get sick" because of the secondary gain of improved family relations (mom and dad are both here and concerned about me...)

It is so very very typical that, at least in my life, the UBPD does everything in her power possible to inflict pain and suffering onto nonSO, THEN, will call up SO asking for "help" as though they have some sort of amicable "friendship" or something...

And, yes, Undone is right, ...why SHOULDNT UBPD continue to ask these unreasonable things...because, yes, frequently she CAN get him to do them...

unbelievable... :-\

[drexelgal]

Everyone, thanks for the responses - you've given me a lot to 'chew' on over the past couple of days - and same can be said in regards to Bear.  (I think I can say such without his objection).  The simple truth is that this is an ugly situation - one that probably has or will play out in some way, shape or form in every one of our households.  Perhaps not the the extent (with the strip naked part) that this played out regarding Bear & his BPDxw, but in the sense that these persons - the BPD's in all of our lives - will consistently corrode & violate boundaries.  The biggest question here is, as Mme. MoGlow stated, how do we prevent this from happening again, how do we preserve our relationships - as nons and secondary nons - from being violated by these people, with whom there has to be some level of communication with children involved?  Where do we find the balance between being good parents and being potentially harming relationships with one another? 

At least in our specific situation, BPDxw is very good about manipulating all communication to center around daughter - and Bear is very susceptible to such.  I think every non here cares greatly about our children, 'step children', etc.  We wouldn't be here if we didn't...and we wouldn't be in this forum if we didn't want to try to find a way to navigate these murky waters.  These are indeed murky waters, with much lurking below the surface, and all sorts of dangers and pitfalls that can entrap us if we are not aware and well informed.

You are all becoming dear and precious friends to me - you all offer sound advice and kind words of support.  And, I appreciate all of it.  I am human and I've felt, and I feel, my pain and anger over this situation - and justifiably so.  The situation, though, cannot be undone - and so it must be moved past.

I, no we, want to learn how to prevent it from happening again.  That's the biggest concern we have.  No contact is not an option - it simply isn't.  Nor can we control the BPDxw and her choice to continue to send pictures to his phone, to continue to call, to continue to send emails - despite being told not to.  We can choose not to answer the phone, not to open the email, etc. but she will continue to do as she pleases.  And, when the phone rings many repeated times, how are we to know that it is not an emergency?  And, if we don't answer it - well, what if it was?  Despite the fact that we are dealing with a BPDxw, there is still that little voice making one question...doubt...that perhaps, one time when the phone does ring so many times...it might just be that 'real' emergency.

That's the simple truth.  We - collectively - cannot control these people.  We cannot understand them - we cannot change them.  If we could, we wouldn't be in these situations in the first place.  As nons, and secondary nons, our challenge is to figure out how to live with them - because we have to as co-parents.  For the sake of beloved D, we have to find a way to co-parent with this woman that will allow little D to grow up healthy and happy. How do we do that? 

I could go on and on and on about the manipulative and horrific things said by this woman since the episode the other evening - including the names she's called me...or the resentment she showed when I the 'trashy' one went with Bear & D to the pediatrician yesterday (and there is nothing really wrong with her...just a virus that will go away on its own to be given tylenol for a fever & push fluids).  But, that's not the point - and it won't do any good...it won't solve anything.  And, right now, I don't need to vent...I want to try to find an answer.  The venting has been done, and it may need to be done again...but at this moment, I'm trying to find an answer.  Not a why did this happen - but a how do we stop it from happening again...

So, I ask you, my Nook friends, how do we go from here...how do we surmount the manipulation and overcome the corroded boundaries...and raise a happy and healthy 2 year old in the midst of what will be a continual 'onslaught' (for lack of a better word) by BPDxw? 

[happygirl]

$%&**(($#*

I just had the best post ever, I am sure and I lost it.

Anyway, drex, glad you took some time off and I hope that you and bear are doing well.

The simple truth is that this is an ugly situation - one that probably has or will play out in some way, shape or form in every one of our households

I am too lazy to rewrite all the beautiful poetic stuff I wrote but I do want to address this from my perspective or at least the one I deal with with Walt.

Bear, Walt struggles to set boundaries also in a large part of not wanting to the bad guy or doing things that seem unkind\like not give rides, etc.

My question\suggestion is does this situation now mean that it can be easier?  fOR example, "Why no, bp woman, I won't give you a ride because that last incident placed me in  a bad position that I do not ever want to be in again" or even better,
"No, I won't come over tonight because last week's incident proved that you have no respect for my relationship with Drex, whom I love and adore"  (okay, that is what I want Walt to say, you've found me out.

Anyway, my point is, that boundaries can now be made based o n her bad behavior, not bear being a jerk.  Like, Ha Ha, who am I to even suggest this because we struggle here so much, but that is my two little pennies worth.

Maybe you guys out there might have some better suggestions  especially you non types but that is what I am wondering.

HG

[pinky]

Hey DrexelGal,

One minute, I think he's listening...the next he's back to being confused and scared.  I feel like I'm dealing with an abused child or something.  And, I wish I knew what my role was in all of this.

You are dealing with an abused child. The roots of Non-ness frequently go back to childhood.

So, back again to where am I.  I dont know.  I'm living in a house with him, I'm helping (at least I think I am) to raise his children.  I think I've been really really good to this man that I love very much - and I'm feeling like I don't deserve to be standing in the midst of this, and feeling helpless at the same time.

I'm human - so I've made my fair share of mistakes (especially over the last few weeks as my senses have been going off full alarm knowing that something like this was in the works) and it has literally driven me to act like anything other than my typical self. 

I guess I'm standing here, waiting to see what he's going to do - and preparing myself for the possibility that I may just have to leave if he chooses to allow this woman to continue so confidently to violate boundaries. 

As an aside, you chose that word so well. She's not just messing with him, she's doing so with confidence. A skilled BPD is a sight to behold.

I'm willing to stand next to him and fight to the end for these kids - all of them - because I love him and I love these children...and I accept that their mothers are sick and will always be trying to cause drama, pain, strife, etc.  I'm willing to work on me being a better me for the sake of these kids...and to work with Bear to try to give them a 'stable' house with consistency.

But he's sick too. To wit:

I am not willing to deal with Bear allowing one boundary after another to be corroded to the point where he finds himself standing face to face with his naked BPDxw.  I am not willing to deal with her sending her picture to his phone.  I am not willing to compete with a borderline for Bear's attention.  I resent feeling as though somehow, right now, I am. 

You and HappyGirl have been wondering out loud why the Nons listen to their crazy BPexes instead of to you, their wonderful non-Nons.  This is why. We are mentally ill. We have brain damage, quite possibly in a literal sense. (Have you read about the exams done on long-term abuse victims? It rewires your cortex, seriously.)

Well, it's that and it's the payoffs. The BPD is willing to go farther than you are to enforce her will. If Bear disappoints you, that's bad because you're disappointed and somewhat angry. If Bear disappoints his ex, the backlash is unlimited.

[JoannaK]

((Drexel)) and ((Bear))...

I remember Bear, of course, when he was first posting here about 2 years ago.  He was one of those few non men who was actually able to get an r.o. on the dingbat BPD and hold to it.  I really admired that in him.  She would "try" stuff here and there, little love notes in with his little girl's things at exchanges, for instance, but he seemed to resist her.  She'd try a re-engagement, then go ballistic when he resisted, if I remember.  I think she used to try to engage him in conversation at those supervised exchanges at the police station. 

The R.o., like No Contact for other nons, did help him to avoid/resist re-engagements.

But now the R.O. has been lifted.  Bear doesn't have legal clout behind him to deal with her b.s., and he doesn't have the "support" of an exchange in a public place to help him to avoid chit-chat with the nutcase mom.  So Bear has to create this "boundary", this psychological divide, himself.  And he's struggling.

In Bear's defense, I do remember the absolute shock I felt when my exh was again good, charming, flirtatious, in some interactions with him after we were separated.  It was as if someone I had once loved had died, but then he had come back from the dead.  I'd forgotten that charming man, as I'd been with the creepy guy for so long!  So I wouldn't be surprised if Bear isn't feeling that same shock when the psycho chick decides to "be good".  It's absolutely mind-blowing and very, very disconcerting.

I'm not sure, of course, from your post, Bear, whether or not this is the confusion that you are feeling.  I don't know if you actually seriously considered going back to the ex or having an affair with her. 

I would suggest, however, that you go back through all of your posts here at BPDFamily and remember what you went through with her.  She hasn't changed, despite her renewed "niceness" and her nakedness.

Throwing herself at you, naked, after she manipulated you into coming over shows the same kind of nasty, shtty behavior that was (and always has been) symptomatic of a person sick with BPD.  The "oogd" stuff, the charming sweetness, the invitations to wild sex, come out of the very same source as the bad, BPD stuff.  She's not throwing herself at you because she is again all sweetness and light.  She's throwing herself at you because she is sick and always has been.

So, Bear, this one should be a no-brainer.  Get the custody papers signed and don't respond to anymore craziness.  Remember limited contact and remember that you are going to have to be the bad guy to the dingbat.

Now, Drexel, you are gonig to have these crazy ladies in your life with Bear for 10-20 more years as these kids are all young.  Is this really what you want in your life right now?   What are you getting and not getting out of this relationship?  Certainly lots of drama...  do you have some kind of need for drama and chaos in your life that you haven't acknowledged?

Wishing you both the best...

[Constantine AKA Bear1]

Hey Joanna,

Good to hear from you. As always you are on the mark in a great many ways.

I'm not sure, of course, from your post, Bear, whether or not this is the confusion that you are feeling.  I don't know if you actually seriously considered going back to the ex or having an affair with her.

My confusion real just plain shock...I felt ambushed..and yes I did walk right into it.  I do not in any way shape or form intend on getting involved with my xbpw.  Truth be told, it was a massive manipulation, worthy of a master BPD. First, out of the blue she agrees to a 50/50 split in custody in front of the court conciliator...he reports right to the Judge...so even if she backs out, I will probably still get this. I was ecstatic...shocked...numb etc...in other words totally off balence.

Anyway in my mind somewhere was that something had changed with her...I joked about it with my SO Drex, and said mabe she is taking different med...she was so out of character.

So I have been very clear with her that the only contact I will have with her is limited to our daughter. And gradually she has been increasingly been sending me emails, text messages, and over the past few weeks text pictures of our daughter. No she has been doing this at specific times when she must know Drex and I are together...well we know what that is about...Drex and I talked about it and saw it for what it was for. So a week ago I spoke with xBPDw and made it clear that this has to stop. Her response was something to the jist of "your GF must be very insecure", I made the mistake of stating that it would bother anyone, and she was interfering with my relationship...stupid stupid dumbass thing I could do...gave her ammo. Her response was there must be problems with my relationship with Drex.  I said end of conversation anything to do with my relationship was no concern of her's. Well I gave her all the ammo she needs...yeah 20/20 hindsight :P

So lets get to that night...romantic evening with Drex...wine etc...and I get a frantic call (little after 11) from xbpw...almost in tears, daughter has incredibly high fever is so red...may needs to go to ER...she has no meds etc...can I come over bring meds. Well I went into super daddy mode and rushed over...I call rright before I get there and she tells me that door is open and they are upstairs. I rush up and they are on her bed (xBPDw...yeah I know), daughter is very ill, I take her temp 102ish, which I know is not the end of the world to rush over to ER, but seems legit, but still it all felt strange, like "deja vu all over again"...well daughter was awake and very feverish, I struggle to get the childrens tylenol pm down her through...which if any of you have or had a 2yo...is a WWF cage match...I win...then Daddy stay...daddy stay...I say to her(daughter), I will. I tell xBPD that when she settles down I'm leaving...well after quite a while daughter starts to fall asleep...fitfully..I rub her back to soothe her...now I am feeling tired..and I realise...trap. I fall asleep there and no matter what I tell Drex...it is over which I am now thinking is xbpw's plan. I tell her I have to leave (xBPDw), she asks me to put daughter in her bed, which I do...she wakes and takes a bit to get her down...finally she goes down. I come out xbpw get of bed...I am telling her good bye and like that she kisses me...I kiss her back and the move off and tell her this so wrong..she responds what is wrong with this as she slips off her top, and in a heart beat her PJ shorts...I am not certain what exactely I felt or was thinking at that moment...something like shock amazement, panic...I blurt out it is late and I have to leave...and turn around and leave as I hear xbpw saying that "I know you still love /want me..." In a kinda sinister smirking way that I cannot really describe...I leave go home and tell Drex what happened...

Since then text message's, phone calls at 7am...emails etc...yesterday text photos of their romp in the mall...no response from me...now Drex does something I told her not to do and she texts xbpw to stop the contact. I get pissed and tell Drex that is the sort of thing that adds full to the fire etc...then at 7 this morning a call from BPDX ( I do not answer) and more text messages...to me as well as Drex...her's to Drex is something along the line of "you know now that he loves me not you". 

So now what? Twenty months of practically no contact to utter chaos.  What's going on?  In the space of three weeks there's been more contact - far more contact - than in the last almost 2 years. 

looking back...xpbw is trying to break up...no destroy...the relationship I have with Drex.  And, looking at how the setup was...and Drex pointed this out to me...it was like dodgeball with two balls in play.  Throw one up high and get the opponent to look up...then nail them with the other ball.  And, that's what almost and I mean very...very...realistically could have happened.  Her first play was to get me over there...she accomplished that...next play was to have me fall asleep with her and my daughter in the bed...when I said I had to leave when daughter was almost asleep...it was then to ask me to put daughter into her (d's) bed.  Next play try to seduce me.

It was really close.  And in all truth...it came within an inch of my life to happening.  I don't ever want to be in that physical, psychological...emotional place ever again.  Now I'm ready for the storm to begin.  I rejected her...abandoned her...again...and I have not responded to any of her attempts at contact. 

Now what?  And that's a rhetorical question because all of you have ever been in the land of Oz or know someone who has knows what is next. 

Wish us luck.
Bear

[Oy-vey!]

Time for a new restraining order.  You have all the v/m, text msgs, e-mail, caller id records.  What she is doing is called harassment.  It is enough to get a restraining order - especially since BOTH of you have told her to stop.

Call your attorney NOW.  Document, document, document.  If you're not careful, she will accuse you of attempted rape - especially since you rejected her by running.

[drexelgal]

Well, Bear drew the line in the sand today - from what I'm told...telling BPDxw when she called to 'check in' on sd during lunch that there's no more contact...no more text pictures, etc. to be sent (and also did a reality check on the 'he loves her' part).   We'll see.

I don't think there's grounds for another restraining order - unless she continues to call, text, etc.  Even then, I don't think there'd be grounds since there is nothing overtly threatening in what she's saying/doing...she's just being an intrusive and manipulative pain in the neck... :-X


Joanna...you always tell the tough truth & ask the tough questions.  I admire that in you.

Now, Drexel, you are gonig to have these crazy ladies in your life with Bear for 10-20 more years as these kids are all young.  Is this really what you want in your life right now?   What are you getting and not getting out of this relationship?  Certainly lots of drama...  do you have some kind of need for drama and chaos in your life that you haven't acknowledged?

Is this really what I want in my life right now:  Yes.  It is.  I've been in relationships before, I've walked away from relationships before - and I could walk away from this one, too...if I so wanted.  But - I don't want to.  I want to wake up in our bed, sit on our couch, live our life...and spend time with these children.  That's where I want to be...and it is my home now.

What am I getting out of this relationship: I have a wonderful man whom is my best friend & my lover.    I also have 3 wonderful 'step children' that I've come to love very much.  I laugh, I cry, I joke - I live daily life - with him.  I appreciate & love him very much - and I can say that he loves me too.  Love is a precious thing - and I'm not talking about that 'weak in the knees' infatuation stuff, I'm talking about love as in committment & deep regard for one another.  Bear & I have that...and although at times it is a bumpy road...what relationship doesn't have its bumps?

What am I NOT getting out of this relationship: A full 100% sense of security - and that is only of late.  It was never anything I worried about prior to this - and hopefully, it will not be anything I will ever have to worry about again.  That will take some time to get back, unfortunately. 

Do I have some sort of need for drama:  Immediately my answer to that would be no...but that would of course be an instinctual and gut response to a hard question.   Truthfully, I don't like 'drama' or 'chaos'...but, do I have my own 'issues' that need to be recognized.  I will admit that.  I don't think there is a person anywhere that doesn't...and I'm working through mine with my therapist on a weekly basis.  I've come far, but still have much more work to do.   

So, back to your question, do I have some sort of need for drama?  No way - in fact, it gives me a great deal of anxiety and makes me quite tired.  I'm non-confrontational and would much prefer an amicable relationship between Bear & his ex's...but that is just not going to happen.  It didn't happen prior to my 'arrival on the scene' and it won't happen now.  I've accepted that there will be 'drama' where there will be drama and there is nothing I can do to control it.  I've got to put my add/anxiety on the side lines and just accept this. (Not saying I necessarily have ADD - but I'm pretty sure I do)

Now, Bear has given me the option on many an occasion to leave - if this was too much, if I couldn't or didn't want to deal with it anymore.  But, I've chosen to stay...I've chosen this life...and given the choice, i'd do it again.

He's precious to me, these children are precious to me...their BPDmoms, I could do without.  But, its a package deal - not an ala carte line.   

Drex