do they often ask the kids to keep secrets?

[Think About It....]

hey all...

my son still seeing his dad and just revealed several secrets he was told to keep from me.
1. that he just got a new liner for his big inground pool that cost $6500  (he wouldn't want me to know cause he is refusing to pay child care expenses)
and 2.  that my son is scared silly of sleeping at his dads.   Apparently cause my son sleeps in the basement, and his sister hasn't been there for several months (she is refusing still), that he is really scared.   He says some of it triggers (his abuse from dads dad occurred in a basement) and partly cause its creepy and lonely.   Anyways, exh has him fall asleep upstairs and then takes him downstairs once asleep.    Exh made my son promise not to tell me.   Quote "he can take care of his kid in his house, his way".   (again, you wonder why the secret...well exh has just served me with an avvidavit saying that he wants custody and the kids love his place!) 

 Is there a law that he needs to let me know?   I have sole custody.  My son had an emotional breakdown last night...he felt aweful keeping secrets from me but now is scared shtless that his dad will find out he told me!

my d had a therapy appt today and my son actually came and wanted to talk.  He feels unsafe.  he asked her a dozen times if she was going to ttell his dad they talked.  it was sad to see.

also...last few months visit with dad...my son almost always invites a friend of over with him for the whole visit.   He says he gets bored, as dad is always busy.

Any experience or input appreciated!

thanks !
K.

[kellaroo]

hey all...

my son still seeing his dad and just revealed several secrets he was told to keep from me.
1. that he just got a new liner for his big inground pool that cost $6500  (he wouldn't want me to know cause he is refusing to pay child care expenses)
and 2.  that my son is scared silly of sleeping at his dads.   Apparently cause my son sleeps in the basement, and his sister hasn't been there for several months (she is refusing still), that he is really scared.   He says some of it triggers (his abuse from dads dad occurred in a basement) and partly cause its creepy and lonely.   Anyways, exh has him fall asleep upstairs and then takes him downstairs once asleep.    Exh made my son promise not to tell me.   Quote "he can take care of his kid in his house, his way".   (again, you wonder why the secret...well exh has just served me with an avvidavit saying that he wants custody and the kids love his place!) 

 Is there a law that he needs to let me know?   I have sole custody.  My son had an emotional breakdown last night...he felt aweful keeping secrets from me but now is scared shtless that his dad will find out he told me!

my d had a therapy appt today and my son actually came and wanted to talk.  He feels unsafe.  he asked her a dozen times if she was going to ttell his dad they talked.  it was sad to see.

also...last few months visit with dad...my son almost always invites a friend of over with him for the whole visit.   He says he gets bored, as dad is always busy.

Any experience or input appreciated!

thanks !
K.

[Jay]

Hey Kel - I don't have any insight but wanted you to know, once again, how heartbreaking it is to read about your kids' and your situation.  I'm so sorry this is happening.  I am convinced this is going to get better for them - this just can not go on, it is disrupting the regular kind of growing up pain that kids have to go threw because life is hard and what you describe from them - the emotional turmoil and fear - it just can not continue.  When is your hearing?  Will your son go to see the counselor again?

Jay

[meryl]

Child Protective Services- that is absolutely DESPICABLE- what a disgusting man and father- that he would make his young son sleep alone in the basement where he was abused?

He has NO SENSE/NO COMPASSION/IS A SOCIOPATH and ought to lose any visitation unless supervised on that basis.

Why do your kids have to go through so much trauma, Kell?

It makes me sick to read- please, get CPS involved for him as well.

I know my judge would be TOTALLY done with this freak of a father!

He's disgusting; he is emotionally abusing him. Please see about an emergency order of protection so that your kids- NEITHER OF THEM- have to go see him alone and unsupervised. Or a RO, aNything!

Your son is scared to death that his dad will find out that he ratted him out- what does that say about his dad? I am sure your son is right on-target for how his dad would react- and he would at the very least TOTALLY emotionally abuse him if he found out- possibly even physically.

((Kell and kids))

Make it stop!

 :'(    :'(     :'(

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[kellaroo]

I don't know how to make it stop!

My daughters therapist has called CPS  3 times and written a letter to the director of CPS to ask that there be an open case.   she got no response.

She did say that the one day that she did call...My exh was there!  Putting in a complaint about me?   she didn't know.

My son says he still wants to go.   So Saturday he was going for a visit with dad overnight.  I found him in the bathroom over the toilet gagging!   He said he is nervous about sleeping over and if dad finds out abuot the secrets.

He went to therapy with his sister last week.   He said it helped.  He took a pic of me to his dads...and hugged his sisters teddy bear and said over and over  "I am ok...I am safe".   And fell asleep doing that~!

I have been involved with CPS several times...he alsways has a way to twist or explain or something and they never do anything!

I am feeling soooooo helpless ...I don't know what to do!

We were filling in a questionaire at the therapsit office.
 One questions to my daughter   "do you ever have thoughts about hurting yourself ?"   she says  "sometimes"   I just about threw up!   I asked her what she meant and she siad that if she gets forced to go see her dad she has visions of breaking her legs or arms so that she has to go to the hospital!

WHAT DO i DO>?>?

[Kystepmom2004]

Yes, keeping secrets is like a 'game' to the BPD-parent...to see if they can get away with it, I guess.

My stepdtr was asked to keep many secrets at 6,7, & 8 yo... "don't tell dad" blah blah blah...

All the secrets came out. Bpdmom was smoking pot in front of her. SD was 8 at the time. SD would be sent to her room when BPDmom & husbband#3 wanted to light up. Bpdmom hit SD once, then sent flowers to school to make up for the incident. Bpdmom & Husband#3 wud fight, physically fight all the time, in front of SD and SD was TOLD not to tell anyone, especially us about their knock down drag outs. Bpdmom wud go into a full blown rage, tearing up things in the house and wud tell SD not to tell anyone.

All these things that BPDmom expected SD not to tell were things that were totally wrong and because BPDmom told her not to tell anyone PROVED that BPDmom knew it was wrong.

DH & I had to finally explain that to SD at the age of 8. We told her anything that Bpdmom tells you NOT to tell YOU need to tell.  During that time, SD would tell her 4th grade teacher and then tell us. Because of SD consistencies in her stories (what she told us and what she told her teacher) we were able to get custody of SD. SD has been with us for 3 years now and is doing wonderful. Every once in awhile, BPDmom will go into a rage, but when mom acts up, SD simply tell BPDmom she wants to go home (to dads). Bpdmom asked SD "What would it take for you to spend more time with me?" Bpdmom screamed this during one of her rages. SD said, "For you to STOP acting like this." SD went to her room & slammed the door. Good for her!

She came home & told us what happened. I cud tell she was very proud of her standing up to her mother.

KSM

[NewLifeforHGG]

kellaroo-what in the world is going on with your ex? Is he sexually abusing them? I would stay on top of CPS until they couldn't stand it anymore.
Secrets breed shame. He is hurting your son to hurt you. I am not so sure he was unaware your son would crack and tell. Watching your son in pain causes you pain which is his goal. Scumbag. ;==

[JoannaK]

Kell, have you talked to your attorney about the possibility of filing for a custody modification, including a custody evaluation, and asking for supervised visitation only?  A change of custody to supervised is the only way you can stop this if CPS won't get involved.  I know it's expensive, but how else can you make this stop?   

[Jay]

I know you are in Canada so I'm not certain how things work there.  However, if this were happening to me in the states (no relief from CPS or even any concern that is evidenced) I would contact my state representative.  I'm not certain that would really help but I would start beating on any doors I could think of.  You pay taxes right?  Those taxes pay for CPS to do something when needed, they are not doing it - find who supervises them and contact them repeatedly until you light a fire under their ass.  I guess that is risky as then CPS might look negatively at you.  But, by the things you describe - there has to be some action taken - something else, another avenue.  Here the people that the CPS supervisor reports to are elected officials.  Find the chain of command where you are and see who will talk to you.  Do whatever you can think of.  Write newspapers, whatever, even if it seems outrageous and a long shot - at least you will have some place to let out your energy in desiring to protect your lambs.  And, even if they don't see it now - some day you will have hard evidence to show them all the steps you took to try to keep them safe.  I believe that will be important to them and mean a lot.  God, Kel.  I wish I could think of something better. 

This is very hard and very frightening.  I can not imagine your pain.  It must be about all consuming.  My prayers are still laid out for you guys every a.m.

Peace and safety to you guys,
Jay

[meryl]

Kell,

It's difficult for me to read about your kids- and their REACTIONS to having to spend time with him.

I know son says he wants to, but why? He fears the repercussions if he doesn't see him, is that it?  Don't listen to what they say, WATCH what they do!

Why doesn't anybody seem to be listening to your kids? Is it where you live, the area?

My Lord- I would like to think that with that much trauma the kids should never have to see him again unless they requested it, and even then as the sole custodial parent I don't think I'd let them.

Somebody has to protect your kids- what's going on up there in Canada?

[kellaroo]

Thanks all for you input...

Ky's...everyone keeps saying ...document it all and it will help you in court.   I can appreciate that, but watching the kids go through this stuff is pretty hard to swallow.  I talked, as well as a social worker , to my son about good and bad secrets.  Good...presents, surprises etc.  Bad...anything kept from your parent, anything that makes you feel uncomfortable or bad to keep from someone.  I think he understands it.  He says he is glad he told me but is now scared dad will find out.   Thanks for sharing your experience...gives me hope!

He's GG...I am not sure what is going on here.   the not knowing is what is ampliflying my hopelessness and fears.  There are no indications of abuse but you gotta wonder what the heck is going on?   My daughter was talking more last night about an event that occured about a year and half ago...in which her dad told her that grandpa really misses her  (gpa DID sexually abuse her).   I am starting to think because exh's crazy family is all still so together that just their dads assosiation to my kids abuse (gpa) cause them to feel so unsafe with him.  To boot...he has always been a button pusher and will go through the kids as he sees fit.  Scumbag indeed.

JoannaK...yes, I have talked to my lawyer.   NOt sure if you recall but in the middle of all this, my exh is charging me for contempt as I won't send daughter there due to her anxiety attacks (vomitting, chestpain etc).   My lawyer says we are going for no access to daughter and since son says he still wants to see exh, we are asking for supervised access of him.  Since exh started the whole contempt charges and is going for custody (even though I have had SOLE  custody for 4 years), my lawyer says we can ask for court fees to be paid for as well.   The fact is my lawyer sent my exh a letter stating he had to pay for child care expenses (as court ordered) and he is refusings to as he says he can't afford it (which is funny since he has a fishing boat and  cruising boat sitting in the driveway of his new home with his new massive, ingroud pool).  They sent the pics home with son on w/e of the new pool to show daughter...just one more way to try and manipulate a 10 year to visit him.  (and one more thing to give to my lawyer proving there is/was money there)

Thanks Jay again for all your support and prayers.   I am thinking about calling CPS again but I don't want it to look bad that I am "one of those parents".   I am praying for the answers for my next step.  Fact is, I am in "momma bear mode" and feel like fighting whoever is in the way of my childrens happiness. Thanks again Jay...your words always give me hope.

Meryl...thank you for your reply.  You alwyas have that kind of tough reply that I need !    I feel the same...who the heck is going to protect my kids?   I guess the answer has to be ME!    My d hasn't seen him in 4 months now and I will not force her, conempt of court of not.   Other than her "breaking my legs if I have to see him " comment...she IS doing better.  (unless she talks about having to see him).   My son seems to be feeling more fear.  I have told him many safety plans...no secrets, call me or my mom anytime, take a cordless phone to bed with him, come home at anytime...just call, call 911 if nec. , don't go if afraid.  As I said to JoK...I am going to ask for supervised access of son only and no access to daughter.  But who knows when that will go to court?   

I left a message on my lawyers voicemail of all of the complaints and fears about kids, once again...asking if we can do anything NOW  (like a temporary no access order).   I haven't heard back from him.   I know he is really busy but it really adds to the frustration.

p.s.  one of the reason my son likes visit (even though in fear), is because since d stopped going...son gets everything, movie night, fishing trips, cake, and today...last day of school...a big pool party for him and his friends.   Of course, that does bug my daughter but she gets it...they never did any of this before she stopped seeing him...she gets he plays head games.   

Thanks all for your input...sometimes when I feel so alone in this, this place of strangers living parallel lives keeps me sane!  They say that ever battle you survive, makes you that much stronger.   I often feel that with myself and I pray if I keep talking with my kids about normal vs inappropriate behavior etc, the same will be true for them!

thankyou,
Kell.

[SadButHoping]

Kell--

To answer your original question--Yes, it is very common for them to ask the kids to keep secrets.  It's part of how they create the chaos that allows them to control everyone around them.  Secrets are lies of omission, and every bit as damaging as lying yourself.  By telling each person in a circle a different version of the story, everyone has a different perspective of what's really going on.  And because of that, each person will react to other stimuli in different ways.  From a third-party observation view, it then looks like everyone in the circle is crazy except for the BPD who is sitting in the middle, calm and serene, enjoying the status of controller that they have created for themselves.

In the real world, the BPD appears out of place and disruptive.  But if you change the paradigm and consider the BPD's world to be "normal", then everyone else appears bizarre.  But inserting just enough facts and crediblility into their stories to deceive an observer, BPDs become experts at getting an unknowing outsider to accept that it is THEIR world that is the norm--everybody else is crazy.  And this works for a while, but not forever.  People talk and compare notes.  People start to question.  Things start to unravel . . . and when enough people know the truth, then the BPD closes this show, finds new friends, new circles, new neighborhoods and opens a new one.  My X did this again and again during our years together.  18-24 months for each show, then a new job, new church, new friends, new house, new town, change your life just like someone else would change their underwear.  And it's always, always, always somebody else's fault.

Your son's reaction is also reasonable however painfully tragic.  He has an instinctive desire to be with his dad--that's only natural.  But he has a logical and physical reaction to the emotions the interactions stir up inside him.  Whenever you lie, you've got to keep track of things--the more lies, the more confusion in your life.  At some point, things burst.  Kids don't need this extra baggage, they've got enough to deal with as it is.  It's unnatural, uncomfortable and disgusting.  It's child abuse, plain and simple.

His dad tells him that you'll be mad if you tell whatever the secret is, so don't tell.  His dad will be mad if he tells, you'll be mad if he tells, so he bottles it up, like a little poison pill in his soul.  But he's a good kid--he's not a liar or cheat and his own conscience is eating him up about it.  And now since he HAS told you, he's also worried about what you will do with the information and how it will come back to hurt him.  So his dad is alienating him from you and from sanity:  Once he's asked to keep the lie, he's put in a no-win situation--either he betrays his dad or he betrays you. 

Like the others have said above, keep after every T and CPS person you can to work on getting this stopped.  Whatever it takes.  This is a very effective start at alienating your son from you, as your X is heavily recruiting him into the "club of cheats".  So far, it seems that your son is doing a good job protecting himself--he DID tell you the truth, which relieves part of his anguish and he's puking up from the stress which shows that he's not comfortable with what he knows he'll face.  A couple of times of doing that and maybe he'll re-think the visits.  We can only hope!  But you can't count on your son's capability to resist forever, either.  When one method doesn't work, you can bet that your X will change tactics and attack him from another direction.  Have you read Warshak's "Divorce Poison"?  If not, I highly suggest it, as it will give you some insight into the methods of alienation.  If you think that's actually happening, then I'd also recommend reading some of Gardner's work on Parental Alienation Syndrome too.  The situation might not get that far, but learning the signs to be on the lookout for seems prudent.

Big hugs today <<Kellaroo>>, and pass some on to your kids.

SBH

[moesha]

Kelleroo, keeping secrets is how sexual abusers groom children for abuse.

I know that your kids have already suffered abuse at the hands of their father's father.  It's an easy leap to assume that this sick turd also sexually abused your ex when he was a kid.  I'd lay odds that your ex was raised to keep secrets and he is reenacting his childhood w/your kids.

The Disneyland Dad syndrome is also very common.  Bribe the kids to keep quiet, keep the gravy train running so that they will keep coming back, even if they are being abused.  It's very confusing, and kids just aren't equipped to sort out that level of chaos.

Sounds like a good sign, though, Kell, that your son wanted to talk to the therapist.  I can't imagine how scared and frustrated you are that CPS is not taking action.  But just keep putting one foot in front of the other and know that you are doing the right thing.  Your sicko ex filing contempt charges means that the case will end up in front of a judge, and the judge will find out, one way or another, how your kids' father is terrorizing them.

[meryl]

((Kell))

Someday you and your kids will be delivered from this evil- I have to believe!

There will be a LIFE again, relatively free from the everyday stress and agony we endure- mine is similar but not nearly as bad.

And I have an EXCELLENT judge- and tons of legal resources since I am not represented.

If available, why not do the research yourself about how to get an emergency order of protection, or whatever it is called in Canada?

I waffled around for over a year with absolutely NOTHING happening with my divorce due to the attorney I was referred to by the doemstic violence agency.

She didn't 'get it'- his mental illness. But she's getting it now. His atty, who is good friends with my prior atty, has filled her in on all the gory details I am sure.

I have pushed forward and prevailed where she never even imagined possible.

So much for the limits of another's mind.

Not about MY LIFE and that of my kids.

The more experience I get with the courts and judicial system and the people employed within them the more confident I feel.

I know this would not be accessible if I was represented- takes an awful lot of time and not having an atty causing me EXTREME anxiety- but not nearly as much as just rolling over on all of it does.

Carry on my sister to the north- all of you are in my prayers!

[John Galt]

Hey Kells,

I know a lot about Childrens Aid here in Ontario so if you do have any questions about that , I might have some ideas .PM me if desired.

I wish you and the kids so well.

Be as strong and tough as you can,

Marc

[kellaroo]

thank you all for your support...

this afternoon I wrote down all my conerns and almost called the childrens protections services  (CAS in Canada).   

I decided to instead try the route of my kids therapist again.

Told them what happened over w/e...son gagging and almost throwing up before visit.  Daughter talking more about hurting herself if forced to see him/her dad.

Well she called back...said she is very concerned.  Called CAS AGAIN  (i think this is the 4th time).  Told them she is quite concerned that they have not responded.   Told them her concerns again and new news.  They said they will get back to her.  She also talked to her supervisor about options to help us.  She put in a call for Office of Child Lawyers for advice.   She also said that CAS told her to supina the records of her calls and all of our complaints when this does go to court and that would be very "advantagous" to me (per the CAS worker).

I feel a glimmer of hope.   

we will see...

[John Galt]

Like I just wrote on the other thread Kells, follow up with a letter.

Judges love letters and documentation and it is real difficult to counter.

You are very astute Kells, draw them in with your letter and corner them.I know you are a really strong tough woman, play tough for your kids,take no prisoners.

Best wishes,
marc

[kellaroo]

Ruthless...do you mean write a letter to CAS or to my kids therapist?

I have documented all calls and what was said and dates and times.

[John Galt]

Documenting the calls is ok and cannot hurt you and even helps a little to support things ,but letters to and fro are so juicy and delicious and judges love them cause it makes their jobs real easy !

There are ways around our stupid privacy laws.Protect the victim is a great concept that our government does not get, but you and I do.

Write both is my call,and also use your good Kelaroo skills to really pull them in and save your babies from anyone who wants to hurt them.

Use your Ruthless skills, like a animal protecting her young !

marc

[kellaroo]

Ruthless and all...thank you so much for your input.

just wanted to let you know that I wrote a letter to childrens Services about my concerns (instead of a phone call).   and today I got a call!   and so did my childrens therapist!

neither of us have spoken with anyone, but they left a voicemail saying that they wanted to talk with each of us...so that is a start!

Thanks for suggestion to write and have hard copy as oppose to conversations and voicemails.

Its nothing yet but its something!

I will let you know how it turns out!

[John Galt]

Excellent news for you Kells !

The more documents the more serious they take you !

I wrote a letter to CAS and advised them while my file was a file to them , it was my childrens lives to me, and I would treat it as such.I retained counsil and they started to be a little more serious.

I am proud for you.
The squeaky wheel gets the oil, right ?

Marc