What would YOU do?

[Think About It...]

I offer you the following hypothetical scenario… what would you do?

At your last court date, an interim order is put into place whereby all exchanges are to take place at a predefined location.  Well call that location “Halfwayspot, PA.”  However, when father intends to spend time in another location, very specifically, “Closertomom, PA” – Exchanges are to take place at Closertomom, PA.  Further, if father is to spend his time in other locations, for example, “Downbythesea, DE” – parties are to agree on an exchange location that is convenient to the parents between that location and moms home.

Well dispense with the knowledge that the above is, unfortunately, just vague enough to allow the BPDex some ammo for causing problems.  There is no location other than her front door that is “convenient” for her.

Now, the above is the current interim order.

Weekend 1 approaches and you are going to be spending your time at “Downbythesea, DE.”  You email a location that is convenient between the two parents locations and even make it fair enough that you are doing ¾ of the distance.

She says, “no” – the judge meant during the summer and now its the school year.  You will pick them up at my house.  My reply is simple – I email the text of the order and say, “its clear, Ill meet you a point X.”  She replies she will not meet.

Ive done a great job of setting boundaries and always get squeamish when circumstances like this, which directly involve the kids, become an issue.  However, this is the first exchange since that order was entered and I have two options:

1. Go to the meeting point and if she is not there for the exchange, forego my weekend with the children, file a report, and bring the issue up at next months court date if not sooner (message in to the attorney).

2. Cave, go get the children to have my weekend from the front door, have my weekend, bring the issue up at next months court date.

My problem with option 1 is that I miss valuable time with the children.

My problem with option 2 is that a precedent is set and there are still going to be two more exchanges between then and now.  Going to the front door increases the drive time significantly.

How would YOU proceed and why?  Hypothetically speaking, of course.  There isn't enough time for the court to intervene, so it ends up being a game of "chicken" so-to-speak.  My attorney says that the judge was clear... the interim agreement is for all exchanges, she did not speak to summer vs. school in any way.  Her attorney said, "tell him to pick them up at the house."

Ironically enough, I did bring this situation up to the judge saying, "Your honor, this is where we've run into trouble before, what if I am at location B, or C?  I agree to meet at a convenient place as long as the order encompasses wherever it is we may be staying on any given weekend."  That is in the record.  Here is her first opportunity to follow an order and like clockwork... it's a problem.

[Mr. M]

I offer you the following hypothetical scenario… what would you do?

At your last court date, an interim order is put into place whereby all exchanges are to take place at a predefined location.  Well call that location “Halfwayspot, PA.”  However, when father intends to spend time in another location, very specifically, “Closertomom, PA” – Exchanges are to take place at Closertomom, PA.  Further, if father is to spend his time in other locations, for example, “Downbythesea, DE” – parties are to agree on an exchange location that is convenient to the parents between that location and moms home.

Well dispense with the knowledge that the above is, unfortunately, just vague enough to allow the BPDex some ammo for causing problems.  There is no location other than her front door that is “convenient” for her.

Now, the above is the current interim order.

Weekend 1 approaches and you are going to be spending your time at “Downbythesea, DE.”  You email a location that is convenient between the two parents locations and even make it fair enough that you are doing ¾ of the distance.

She says, “no” – the judge meant during the summer and now its the school year.  You will pick them up at my house.  My reply is simple – I email the text of the order and say, “its clear, Ill meet you a point X.”  She replies she will not meet.

Ive done a great job of setting boundaries and always get squeamish when circumstances like this, which directly involve the kids, become an issue.  However, this is the first exchange since that order was entered and I have two options:

1. Go to the meeting point and if she is not there for the exchange, forego my weekend with the children, file a report, and bring the issue up at next months court date if not sooner (message in to the attorney).

2. Cave, go get the children to have my weekend from the front door, have my weekend, bring the issue up at next months court date.

My problem with option 1 is that I miss valuable time with the children.

My problem with option 2 is that a precedent is set and there are still going to be two more exchanges between then and now.  Going to the front door increases the drive time significantly.

How would YOU proceed and why?  Hypothetically speaking, of course.  There isn't enough time for the court to intervene, so it ends up being a game of "chicken" so-to-speak.  My attorney says that the judge was clear... the interim agreement is for all exchanges, she did not speak to summer vs. school in any way.  Her attorney said, "tell him to pick them up at the house."

Ironically enough, I did bring this situation up to the judge saying, "Your honor, this is where we've run into trouble before, what if I am at location B, or C?  I agree to meet at a convenient place as long as the order encompasses wherever it is we may be staying on any given weekend."  That is in the record.  Here is her first opportunity to follow an order and like clockwork... it's a problem.

[Oy-vey!]

You set the precedent with option 1.  It is only one weekend that you might miss with your kids (you have the rest of their lives to make up for it).

Make sure you have documented the fact that you are being reasonable by offering to meet her beyond 1/2-way point (clearly stated in similar words).

Then stick to the agreement and then stick it to her in court.

Good luck.

[TexasSky]

You forgot option 3.

Call your attorney, get a letter from the attorney to the judge, stating that this will NOT be tolerated in the future, and stating that this type of game playing WILL come up in the court hearings.  Hand her a copy of that letter when you pick up your kids.

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[Mr. M]

You forgot option 3.

Call your attorney, get a letter from the attorney to the judge, stating that this will NOT be tolerated in the future, and stating that this type of game playing WILL come up in the court hearings.  Hand her a copy of that letter when you pick up your kids.

Not a bad option...

[Morphine]

the judge meant during the summer and now its the school year.

Does the order specify summer/school year?   if NOT, then I would show up at the pre-determined point from "downbythesea,DE" and then get a credit card receipt day/time stamped picture and then go on with my weekend.

[banzaiphred]

I chose the first one,
but why would you go
there if you knew she
was not going to be
there?  Aren't you in
cell phone contact?

-- just curious

[Mr. M]

I would go there "just in case" she came after telling me that she wouldn't.  It's a more-than-reasonable meeting point and while yes, there is an earlier "turn off" that would get me to the same place - this meeting point would be more convenient to her and not too much more inconvenient for me.

Morphine, the order doesn't specify summer vs. school year.  It speaks of all exchanges.  It uses language like "father's weekends" - which is what I have during the school year.  It also specifies "Halfwaypoint, PA" when I am not in another location... which would be the exchange point during the summer periods (when I have them for longer periods of time).

[JoannaK]

Mr. M, this is a terribly worded agreement.  I think you realize that.  It would work perhaps for a normal situation with normal people, but, with a BPD type, forget it. 

I think option number 3, proposed by Texas, is the best for now.  You and/or your attorney should write her a letter and try to define when you will pick the kids up at a different location.  I understand your point, but it's just too, too vague.  You couldn't take her to court on this... .it's not clear enough.

So, as this is a new order and summer is in its final glory, I would go get those kids, have a good time, and try to let the attorneys (with input from you) hammer out something more specific.  And make sure that this loosey-goosey clause doesn't get in the final order.

[Mr. M]

Action is in the works... in the judge's "defense" (sort of) - she was fed up and the hemming and hawwing from the other side and in an effort to settle the matter, she turned to the court reporter, let fly with what her command was and struck the gavel.

I assure you that when we return to her, she will remember EXACTLY what she meant and should unBPDex hold fast to her assertion... she will (might) be the only one in trouble.  I say might because she will be in violation of (another) court order and only MAY get punished.  Moms don't often get sanctioned for custodial interference and violating court orders.  They have to really be "over the top" issues and in my mind, this won't rise to that level, but we'll see...

[Dadhavingtrouble]

MrM - I bounced my way through all of the scenarios, and there really isn't a fully baked right answer. 

The wording has you set up to lose in her games, but even with the finest wording, she's able to deny and re-create her universe anyway, so what does it matter.  The local police have told me there's nothing they can do in the short term, the judges have told me to accumulate the violations and then they may add up to something someday - haven't yet - after 5 1/2 years, so not confident that's ever going to happen.

I've tried to eliminate direct exchanges but that really only works during the school year with drop-off at school, pick-up after - so beautiful with no face-to-face with BPDex!  there are those school holidays, and other "memorialized calendar events", not to mention snow days, sick days and others that throw a high hard curve ball right at your chin even then.  In the meantime, I have the NorthJersey location and the JerseyShore location that are my S.O.'s and my place respectively that we spend time with our blended family.  In ALL instances, I pick him up at the curb at the end of her drive - She pretends that I'm not allowed in the driveway for some percieved threat - even when it's raining, snowing or sleeting - my son treks out through it to the bottom of the drive...  I NEVER want her to come to my S.O.'s house, nor mine.  My past landlord didn't want her on his property, sure she'd sue him due to his steep property.

Best answer - simplify the drop off.  Don't compromise the agreement as outlined by the court - just because she does - and somehow can (somebeody please explain why that happens but if I try it I'd go to jail?).  Stay true to yourself and follow the rules.  It may suck sometimes, you may "lose" sometimes, but consistency and example will ultimately be best for you, and for your children to model!

Good luck.

[Mr. M]

You would be surprised how many of the "wording" games issues I've "won."  Even though it appears I won't be winning the war, I've won nearly every one of the battles... so I guess there is some small measure of satisfaction in that.

I'll let you know the results of the attorney-fax-exchange tomorrow, time-permitting.

[Dadhavingtrouble]

I wish you luck in this latest exchange.  I've got another thread running (with you and mmm and LTM in it on another board) but the police showed up at my SO's house tonight and I'm at my wits end.  Maintained my NC so well it took my BPDx escalating to gt a police escort for "fear of her life to deliver papers" to me that she well could have mailed.

It's interesting that we always put "WIN" in parentheses - 'cuz we all know there really is no winning, especially when the children are the pawns.

In any event, I've clearly been doing something wrong.  Clearly not had the right representation, and God knows my Pro Se' efforts have been futile.

I don't know if your attorney would practice in NJ, or know of any counterparts here that would know BPD as well as they do, but I'd appreciate any insight or guidance you can provide in that regard.   Money is beyond tight, but I do have to stand some ground, or risk losing more than everything I've already given up and don't have...

Again, good luck tomorrow - positive karma all around

[Mr. M]

Mine might be licensed in NJ and I may "have a contact who has a contact" in NJ.  They're all expensive and expect to buck up $2,500 just for an opening retainer... $3,500 if court appears inevitable.

[drexelgal]

Mr. M

Go with the exact wording of the order (even if it can be confusing).  Don't stray from it and don't set precedent to stray from it.

I'd definitely petition for a much less complicated, neutral pick up/drop off location.  Bear has his worded that pick ups/drop offs were initially at a police station and are now at a school.  Any deviation from that has caused great headaches...so stay with the exact wording.  I'd suggest petitioning at your next court date to have a police station centrally located between your two homes as the exchange place (also makes it incredibly easy for witnesses  should there be any conflict or deviation from the order). Then, stick with that one location.  If you can, petition for exchanges before/after school at the school...that eliminates all face to face contact..

Hugs.
Drex

[imgritz]

What's more important 1) Winning a battle or 2) Being with your children?  I would drive to China every day (if possible) to spend time with my daughter.

Spend time with your children and love them unconditionally.  One day they will be grown, have lives of their own and you may not be able to see them as much.

You can always do the legal stuff if you desire.

[Dadhavingtrouble]

Imgritz -

Of course spending time with my sone is paramount - especially given the unhealthy, overbearing, threatening, pretend, and full of lies household he lives in while he's with her.

Unfortunately it's not that easy.  I used to "swoop in and save the day for him" every chance I was given.  I did it out of guilt and because he was young.  He's now just 10, but he has grown and does understand things a little better, at least as well as any 10 y/o could.

Being with him at all costs now is not a healthy alternative.  It promotes and validates her bad behavior and models for him that if a person simply makes enough of a stink they'll get whatever they want, no matter how unreasonable it is.  That's a lifes lesson that can't be undone - one that his BPDmomster lives every day.

I struggle for being strong and consistent, showing him there is hope and a right way, versus trying to extract and deprogram him whenever I can get him out of her clutches.  I did that - it's no good.  He never has any peace.

My SO, therapists and other experienced individuals have likened the situation to a triangle - an inverted one, wherein my son ends up being the point in between his BPDmomster and me and he holds and carries all the weight when I engage with her in any way and she lashes back.  That's more unfair and unsettling for him now.  I keep holding to he is growing up.  We try to have our best time in the time that we are together, and I hope that we'll have a good lasting relationship for the rest of our lives despite her best efforts at alienation.

Gotta go now to apply for a Public Defender following last night's blow-up and new Order to Show Cause I have to defend against.

If there are any really easy answers, or you perceive there to be - you're mistaken - the sickness will reach out to you even when you hold the firmest of boundaries - does anyone disagree?

[mmm]

Exactly DHT. Of course it's most important for us to get the kids, but if we reinforce her thought that if she throws a big enough fit she will get her way, then the fits will just get larger, and the kids will learn what to do to get their way. In certain instances where the sons haven't wanted to do something, she has specifically TOLD them to throw a fit to get out of it, like sporting events (she has major weight issues and is feeding the problems to the kids in the form of over eating and no physical activity). One instance last year had the older son doing just that, throwing a fit to get out of a father/son event at school where he ended up being the ONLY kid not participating, other than her neighbor's son whose mom she emulates (that son is a clear candidate for the next great serial killer of the east coast, he will probably start with his parents). It's all manipulation and drama and we can't cave everytime just because it will get us 24 hours with the kids. We can just as easily pick them up the next morning when we will actually be closer to the area so that she knows she isn't just going to get her way, her weekend plans are ruined, and we still get our time with them. It's all a game to her, and unfortunately we have to play to win long term, not just one visit.

[imgritz]

I fought for years like you guys to protect my child.  What I have found out that the courts, psychologists and attorneys can't do a darn thing to protect the children/yourself against the emotional abuse.  Believe me, I have three psychologists, a high conflict advisor, attorney and a ton of $$$.

What I have found out is...
1) The time I have with my child is the time I have.  I don't ask for a second more.

2) The X will always be a psychotic h*ll beast.

3) I am there for my child when she is with me.  I don't farm for information.  I don't ask for more time.  Remember, if you are thinking about the X/ talking about the X then you are not with the kid.

4) In my case, $$$ is wasted on offensive purposes.  I only use my $$$ to protect my kid and me in court.

5) When I realized #4, I use my money for vacations and other fun things to build positive memories.

6) The only thing I can do is say "I am sorry that happened at the X's" and give my kid a hug.

7) I do my darnest to never put my kid in the middle.

8) I follow the article "How to Ex communicate" at website http://www.highconflictintervention.com/index.html

There are other tips.  My high conflict advisor told me two things.  1) What do you like about emotional abuse?  If you don't like it, then why do you have any contact with the person that is abusing you?  2) Your child will be ok.  Only intervene if the X is physically abusing, drugs, alcohol, sexual molestation, etc.


I don't fight anymore.  I dropped the court battles.  I don't see two psychologists.  I go to the co-parenting therapist simply because the attorney says I need to make a good show.

What you guys need to learn through experience is happiness.  Find it in yourself and only then will your children know what it is like to be happy.  Be a Safe Harbor.  Your X will always be a nut.  How long are you going to let it effect you?  I still have my moments when my X drives me insane but the days are fewer and far between.  Now, I am can smile when I am with my child. 

You guys can still have your fun storming the castle. 

[Dadhavingtrouble]

so follow this bouncing ball, or rollercoaster if you will...  With the able bodied assistance of my SO (LTM)!, and I don't know how she kept her head on straight through this latest round, but she did - we did!

yesterday morning, BPDxmomster calls and leaves a message asking for my fax # so that she can send me some important medical papers my son needs completed immediately for school.  This is following a dozen or more previous phone calls demanding my fax so she can "send whatever she wants without having to talk to me".  I didn't cave in to yet another form of harassment and wouldn't be fooled by this latest ploy.

Later in the same day, she calls again - all voice messages - and asks if I'd like to have my son for a few hours for dinner or hang out while she has a "date" with the latest husband with whom she's separated (he's had enough drama).  I didn't take that bait either.  So as I shared earlier, she showed up at my SO's house last night, escorted by the police in order to deliver the latest Order to Show Cause.

So, of course, drama, tears, intrusion, melee... restless night, time spent contacting attorneys, the court, the Msgr at my son's school named in 4 paragraphs in the OC.  Turns out the Msgr knew nothing about what he's been represented as supporting for her.  The Court has not received any notice from her.  So NOTHING is different, but we all went along for the ride again.  Thankfully this time I/we stopped to look at the bigger picture and didn't react - and end up looking like the crazy ones in the process.

If I receive something official from the court, then I'll take action - which will involve petitioning for a Public Defender, but not until then...  Not that the court will really know what to do with this latest BS anyway...

Not that it wasn't disruptive, it was, but what a lesson for me at last.  I'm just hoping these aren't the last straws for my SO.  She did come to the good and reasonable conclusion that she can file for a Restraining Order as she is a single mother with two children exposed to a certified nutcase with no respect for boundaries.  Perhaps the court will take some care or action for LTM as she's a mother too.  Dad's don't expect this kind of relief - unless your cut or bleeding as a man, the state of NJ won't recognize any TRO as meeting the statutes to continue them after the initial period.  I've had all previous dismissed.  Maybe LTM's will stick!

[wornout]

Stick to your guns!