July 23, 2014, 12:05:33 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Moderators: DreamGirl, LettingGo14, P.F.Change, Rapt Reader
Advisors: an0ught, Mutt, livednlearned, pessim-optimist, Turkish, Waverider
Ambassadors: BacknthSaddle, corraline, cosmonaut, DreamFlyer99, free'n'clear, Kwamina, lever, maxen, maxsterling, woodsposse
  Directory Guidelines Glossary   Boards   Help Login Register  
bing
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How to reconcile with unfaithful BP partner?  (Read 6032 times)
Taz
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


« on: March 13, 2007, 03:07:35 AM »

This is my interpretation of the events, based on my what partner later told me.

3 weeks ago, after 2 days of threatening suicide and raging at me,  my partner went into a state of 'insanity'.  He believed he had lost his relationship with me, even though he was the one who kept on bringing up the topic of a break up, not me.  Also, even though I told him I'd go see him in a week, when we'd both calmed down, he believed he would kill himself before then.

Believing he had lost everything (i.e me), he slept with a prostitute.  He needed comfort and in his words, he thought he'd "do one selfish thing before I died".  But he didn't die and instead, he said he realised that that he had done something which might cause him to lose me for good.

We are now trying to come to terms with what happened.  Both of us are going for counselling to work on our own issues as well as work through our issues with each other.

I'm having an incredibly difficult time.  On the one hand, it is so easy to go back to the closeness I had with him as we're now in the honeymoon stage of our "re-relationship".

I can understand his reasons.  He acted in irrationality.  But I feel guilt.  If I had agreed to see him that night, would he still have gone off to seek solace from someone else the next day?

Also, I feel guilty for being angry at what seems like an impulsive and irrational act.  I suppose it's like taking someone to task for committing a crime when they were not of sound mind when it happened.

He did not blame me for it at all.  He's been trying to reassure and comfort me.  But he's also trying to heal and is very antsy when I pry for details.  He told me they only had sex, no kissing, no oral sex, but I keep wanting to know more.  I know it would not be in my best interests to know, since I will only get upset and beat myself up about it.  But I cannot help it. 

Up to this point, we were each other's first and only partners.  And now this has changed.  I have to mourn the death of the relationship it was, and try to move into the new circumstances, where there are different challenges and opportunities. 

But it seems like his way to heal is inwards and with himself.  For me, it's in knowing that I can ask him whatever I want, whenever i want to, and for how long I need to.  And for him to continue to be patient and to oblige wherever possible, and to comfort and reassure me.

It'd be a lot easier if I just hated him.  But now, there is a disconnect - I love him, I want us to move on, but I hate what he did, and I still feel betrayed by it even though this is partially mitigated by his 'temporary insanity'.

He hates himself for the way it has affected our relationship, and he's having to deal with how low he had sunk.  He says I'm pressuring him.  I don't mean to.  But I feel so lost and betrayed. 

Can anyone help?  How can I deal with this?  I need to give him time to heal.  But I need his help and his openness in order to do so.  How can i learn to deal with the hurt without pressuring him or pushing him away. 
Logged
Her Mama
formerly "Ks Step Mom"
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 3136


« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 04:00:40 AM »

I am so sorry this is happening to you.  I don't know that what my experience is would be of any help but I guess I'll give it a shot.

I've been cheated on in two relationships.  The first time, I broke it off with this person and have since refused all attempts by him to reconcile.  Even when I was single and able to be in a relationship, I chose not to.

The second time was when my ex and I were separated but he, in attempts to persuade me to reconcile, swore it was a mistake to have chosen drugs and his friends over our family, he thought he had "lost it all" with me, didn't want a divorce, would go to counseling together and he would go separately for his alcohol and drug issues.

I took him back but wasn't ready for him to come back home without the counseling first.  We had an open door policy to each other and each had a key to the others home.  The main thing was that neither would pursue a sexual relationship with anyone (including between he and I) until the counseling showed progress or we formally filed for divorce.

I went to his home one night after getting off work and found he and another woman in bed.  They were naked, asleep, and curled up together.  I stood at the side of the bed and flicked on the light and asked him "So you love me?  So you swear that you have been faithful?  So you don't want a divorce?"  Needless to say they were completely freaked out.  I left without saying another word.  He ran after me to plead his case.  I filed for divorce that morning.

Two years pass and ultimately I agree to try to work things out.  "For the sake of our son".  He outright lied to me that there wasn't anything I should be aware of.  Six months later, I find out that he had "Little Bit" with BPDcrackhead.  In short order, things went back to the way they were that made me decide to divorce him.  Except now, he has this little girl that has lived in my home for nearly two years and he dangles her like a carrot to get what he wants from me.

As far as trusting again, from my two experiences, it has been much easier to respect myself, much easier on my mental state, and every other part of my life to have refused to reconcile with the first, and a complete nightmare to have reconciled with the second.

Even if you think you can trust him again, for me, I found out that the pain and doubt NEVER goes away.  You are the only one who knows for sure if you can get past those feelings.  For me, the reminders are daily.  For me, if I ever try again, if I'm ever in that position again, I know which way I will go.  If for nothing else than my own self respect and dignity.

Logged

Learn from your experiences in the past but do not live there.  To do that steals from today. 
Live in the present with an eye to the future and leave the past where it belongs.
united for now
Emeritus
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11111


Talking about solutions create solutions


WWW
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2007, 10:48:16 PM »

i am truly sorry for the painful situation you are in. cry  Yet you need to remember that he had choices that he made. He knew if they were right or wrong, so there is no justification for that kind of selfishness.  Especially since he claims he needed comfort for himself, yet he rushed to inform you and destroy your happiness in the process. Guilt? Or blame shifting? If you had been there, i wouldn't have hit.

Both of you need time to heal, but pressuring him to reveal private thoughts at this point seems like prying also. The more you push, the more he may clam up. Do you really want to know all the sordid details?

I never had to deal with anyone suicidal, but from everything I have read, you are to immediately report them to the authorities, so they can make a professional judgement, that we are not capable of. That is the extent of our responsibilities. They may be bluffing, or not. Do you really want to live with yourself if you are wrong and they do kill or harm themselves?

i guess you need to be asking yourself some serious questions ... Like, Why didn't I call the suicide hotline right away if I thought he was serious about killing himself? Who was I trying to protect? why am I blaming myself for the actions of another adult? Whose responsibility was it to perform the actual act? If i am not of sound mind, does that mean I can get away with anything? What are the limits on my bad behavior? How many free passes can I get? Why am I entitled to total access to the private thoughts of another? At what point do I say enough? Who is responsibible for my happiness? My peace? My health?

When we are told we can only control ourselves, it is easy to wish it were otherwise. The truth is, we can't control anyone else. They make decisions based on the information they have, at that time, that will benefit them the most, in some fashion or another. Whether the information they have is correct or not, they still have to make a choice in performing a certain action. Even not taking action is choice, since it is a negative form of action.

i am learning this lesson myself, now that I am in almost 2 years with an uBPbf, after leaving a 21 year marriage to a non, who couldn't stop gambling. I am learning to set boundaries for myself, and to only take responsibility for my own actions. NO ONE ELSES... After awhile you have to ask, How much am I willing to put up with? Only you can answer that one.

Be strong***
Logged

Change your perceptions and you change your life.  Nothing changes without changes


turtle
Distinguished Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 5316



WWW
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2007, 01:13:08 AM »


Taz -- This makes me sick  barfy

I know you don't want to hear this, but this man is abusing you and you're letting him.  He threatens your safety, he manipulates your mind and now he had to do "ONE selfish thing before he died?"  Please.  He is selfish 24/7.  He didn't blame YOU for it.  What a gift.  I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but please. And...threatening suicide like he has numerous times is the height of selfishness.  It preys on every emotional fiber you have.  And like UFN said --- why didn't you call the cops?  If you'd do that, the suicide threats would probably stop.

Taz -- you've got to get a grip.  This man is ABUSIVE!  And you're allowing him to be that way!  When are you going to stand up for yourself and quit letting him run all over you?  He treats you like sht and you let him do it -- time after time after time. Why? Letting someone treat you like sht isn't love.  He didn't have a fit of insanity -- he keeps abusing you (in this case by cheating on you) because he knows he can -- he knows there will be no real consequences.  Sure you'll be upset, but so what?  He still gets what he wants.

I'm sorry -- I know you don't like hearing this stuff -- you haven't liked it since the first time I read your posts a few months ago -- but it IS the truth.

You have to help yourself Taz.  Until you help yourself, you can't help him or anyone else. And it's highly unlikely that you can help yourself while you're with HIM.  He's got you dancing like a wind up doll.

I'm sorry to be so frank -- I just don't know any other way.  We care about you here.  We all read the heartache in your posts and I can't speak for anyone else, for it breaks MY heart.  Not because he's so horrible to you (which he is) but because you continue to allow it.

Turtle

Logged


Bdawn
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1498


« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 02:21:34 AM »

Taz, Taz, Taz (shaking head sadly), this guy has got you so twisted and confused. Can you not at least take a 3 or 4 week break from him? If he loves you he should be okay with whatever you have to do for yourself to recover.You definitely need some time away from him to get your head clear.
You sound grateful that he didn't blame you, like that alone makes him some kind of champ. And you feel guilty for even being angry at the person that hurt you and betrayed you in this terrible way. Imagine that you had a sister that you loved with all your heart and that she was going through this instead of you. How does it look now? How would you see it if somebody you deeply loved was being treated the way you are allowing yourself to be treated. Yes I know that right now he's in suck-up mode and so he's probably being extra sweet, but he normally treats you like crap and the prostitute incident was just the icing on the cake.

Okay lets take a trip to fantasy island and pretend for just a minute that he really was insane when he deliberately went out and picked himself up a hooker. Why was he insane? Was there some catastrophic event that had recently occured that would make any sane person snap? Like had he just witnessed mass carnage or been the victim of a terrible head injury? If not then can we assume that he just goes insane at times for no obvious reason? How do you know he's not going to have a moment of insanity tomorrow or next week and do the same thing or do something even worse? I mean if it happened once couldn't it happen again? How can you ever trust someone that suffers from episodes of insanity? I know I certainly couldn't.

Turtle is right, this guy (notice I don't call him a man) is incredibly selfish and abusive. Cheating is abusive and selfish, repeated suicide threats are selfish and abusive, manipulation is abusive and selfish, etc, etc... We keep saying the same things to you over and over and what we say is not going to change no matter how many excuses you give us for this guys creepy behavior. I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned your bf is just a big creep and I know that one day you will think so too. I hope that day comes sooner rather then later.
Logged
Pinnacle
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 505


« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2007, 02:04:15 PM »

Taz, Sorry, sorry sorry.  I can't add anthing but I do agree with bdawn and turtle.

Puddin
Logged
willowtree007
Guest
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2007, 03:31:48 PM »




Can anyone help?  How can I deal with this?  I need to give him time to heal.  But I need his help and his openness in order to heal myself. do so.  How can i learn to deal with the hurt without pressuring him or pushing him away. 

I can help you. He owes you his help and his openness (as much as you need) in order for you to heal from his betrayal. If he won't give it to you, if he threatens that your prying will push him away, then know this - you will never heal. It was his deed, not yours so get rid of any guilt you carry.

Sit down and figure out what your boundaries are, such as what will you do if he cheats again? Give yourself a few days to do this. Write them down in a card and give it to him. I would make him read it out loud to you and then discuss it, so that you know he understands. Be prepared to honour your own boundaries.

Here is a link for both of you to read:
www.marriagemissions.com/sexual/rebuilding_trust.php
I am afraid that both of you are making this "about him".

Now, I'll repeat what others have said. He cheated on you in a bout of insanity? So, is his insanity cured now? If so, you must share with the medical world what cured him.

Taz, I have an STD for the rest of my life, because like yours, my bf also had insane moments.

I understand how you're feeling right now. You have my sympathy. Move through it at your own pace.
Wil
Logged
Former_Fool

Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2007, 05:17:34 AM »

Are you 100% certain (actual proof) that he went to a prostitute... or is that simply what he told you?

If you are NOT certain for yourself, then I think you need to be careful with this.

Obviously, I do not know him personally, so I can only offer possibilities.  Possibilities which are not pleasant to face.

I guess I'm somewhat concerned that (despite the hurt he's caused) you seem pretty impressed with the fact that he "voluntarily confessed" to visiting a prostitute.  Impressed that he has (calmly?) endured your intimate questions. And, that you truly bought into his "insanity" routine.  The insanity gives him a free pass in many respects.

I've read and re-read your post several times to be sure I understand correctly... and I may still be missing something.  If so, please accept my sincere apology.

I can only speak for myself, but the story he told you doesn't pass the smell test for me.  The idea of visiting your very first prostitute only hours/days before you plan to take the big, self-imposed dirt-nap is a real big stretch for me.

It seems to me that IF he's lying... he's already winning.  When BP's have reason to believe the truth might eventually come out, many of them (and other disordered people) use a common tactic which involves confessing just enough to convince you that they have truly come clean.  Moreover, because they are so well practiced at lying-on-the-fly and then watching their victims lap it up with a spoon... over time BP's put less and less effort into constructing the lies and thus tend not to stray so far from the real truth.  Sometimes they actually tell on themselves in ways they didn't imagine  In most cases, their victims never realize this until long after the fact.

Bear with me a moment and whether you agree or not, you'll see what I mean.

Suppose, just suppose that instead of a prostitute... it was was a former partner, bar acquaintance, a friend of yours or whatever.  Now suppose that you (months/years later) find out that he lied about the prostitute.  Now picture yourself being right up in his face confronting him about the big prostitute lie... and he says, "At least I was honest enough to tell you that I had sex.  What difference does it make who it was with?  It was just sex!  Why do you have to ruin our relationship now by throwing up the past in my face.  Okay, so I lied when you asked me for the details, but what did you expect me to say?  You couldn't handle the truth... so you made me lie to you because you kept on asking questions.  I would have been happy to stop with just telling you I had sex... but you kept asking more and more questions.  Besides, I haven't done it again, so why can't you just let it go?"

If that should ever happen like that, not only has he cheated you out of dealing with his original lie... he's also accomplished transferring the blame to you --- FOR WHAT HE DID!

Seems far fetched?  Not necessarily.  The BP's I know would never voluntarily confess to anything unless something far worse was looming.  If a BP thinks there is one centilla of possibility that (due to unresolved suspicion) you might eventually (somehow, someway) learn the whole truth, they will often tearfully "cop" to a lesser offense.

This accomplishes 3 things.  First, (if ever found out) it puts the blame for his lying on the victim.  Secondly, the BP can claim they were honest in the beginning by admitting the most basic fact --- "Yes, I had sex".  And, thirdly (by partially confessing) they managed to restore most of your trust immediately after they did the original deed.

Yes, there are some people on this earth that feel true remorse for their own wrong doing... and must confess voluntarily in order to sleep at night.  Hopefully your partner is one of those people.  I cannot say.

What I can say is that this humble behaviour is NOT common among BP's.  Moreover, keep in mind that unless you are a friend-of-a-friend of this supposed prostitute... he could be assured that you would never have found out.  Thus, aside from a clean conscience, he would have no reason to confess.  Something just tells me that he might be fearful that you would eventually find out... and that it may not be a prostitute in reality.

Like I said, I don't claim to know.  But remember this:  Throughout history, some people have gotten away with serious crimes by tearfully confessing that they once poisoned a neighbors dog.  As they wipe the tears, they go on and on about how they will never forgive themselves for harming that poor little dog.  Lacking absolute, concrete proof... the investigator was favorably impressed with the suspects willingness to be forthright and honest.  Not to mention how emotionally damaged the suspect appeared to be.  Case closed.

Be careful with how deep you swallow the hook.  Go slowly and be careful.  The frustrating part is that no matter how many questions you ask (about the details), you may or may not ever know the truth from him.  Worse yet, you probably won't be able to recognize the truth even if he did tell it.  That's often part of the BP treadmill and most don't care one way or the other --- as long as it keeps you confused, questioning your own reality, and at bay.

Best of luck to you.

 :Fact:







Logged
Former_Fool

Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2007, 05:45:02 AM »

I couldn't see any way to edit my post above, so I have to add something important I forgot, as follows:


YOU SAID, "I can understand his reasons.  He acted in irrationality.  But I feel guilt.  If I had agreed to see him that night, would he still have gone off to seek solace from someone else the next day?"

So has he already transferred blame to you and convinced you that he went to a prostitute because you didn't want to be with him the night before?  If those are his opinions, you've already got all the answers you need about him.  If they are strictly your own thoughts... you don't stand a chance against the other BP tactics that will eventually come your way in this relationship.

You should re-read that statement you made 20 times and let it sink in.  As a male, I can tell you all of that garbage is a no-brainer.  Even a mega viagara overdose can't justify hiring a hooker the next day. 

Trust me, he wasn't seeking "solace" if he went to a prostitute.  Your average hooker couldn't spell the word... much less figure out how much to charge for it (whatever it is?).

Do you blame yourself for everything he does wrong?


   




Logged
willowtree007
Guest
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2007, 11:04:58 AM »

I've read and re-read your post several times to be sure I understand correctly... and I may still be missing something.  If so, please accept my sincere apology.

Seems far fetched?  Not necessarily.  The BP's I know would never voluntarily confess to anything unless something far worse was looming.  If a BP thinks there is one centilla of possibility that (due to unresolved suspicion) you might eventually (somehow, someway) learn the whole truth, they will often tearfully "cop" to a lesser offense.

This accomplishes 3 things.  First, (if ever found out) it puts the blame for his lying on the victim.  Secondly, the BP can claim they were honest in the beginning by admitting the most basic fact --- "Yes, I had sex".  And, thirdly (by partially confessing) they managed to restore most of your trust immediately after they did the original deed.


Taz,
Former_Fool has it bang on. What he has written are totally my experiences with my lying, unfaithful exBPD bf. Totally!

Even after the second time that he cheated (that I know about), I didn't want to lose him, because I had never been with a man who had treated me so well. He was generous, kind, treated my DDs better than their own father, intelligent and humorous company. But I was paying a high price for staying with this wonderful man - my mental health. Cheating is a form of emotional abuse. It makes you feel as if there is something lacking in you and it takes away your self-worth.

You have a heads up. Now you can watch the BPD behaviour with knowledge instead of bewilderment. Will he cheat again? From my experience, I'd put my money on the yes horse.
Wil
Logged
csandra
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2374


« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2007, 01:30:22 PM »

Taz,

 Formerfool just opened a can of worms but they may be the kind that make silk...

My uNPDstbxh did the same tactics about money, strip joints.  I really felt guilty that I had caused him to stray, make poor money choices.  If only I had been there, if only I hadn't have gone on family trip to Yellowstone without him(3 days after he informed me that he had been to see an attorney and have papers drawn up).  If only I would have begged him to stay after he threatened to leave/move out after I got upset with him for coming home drunk/driving with our kids.

Reading that post triggered a lot for me, but what it triggered was the confusion I felt when he was trying to dig himself out of HIS hole.

 A few months ago he volunteered..."yes, there was a lot of deception".  Kind of like..."yes, there was 2 inches of snow on the ground".   Not, ..."C, I lied to you.  It was wrong of me to lie to you.  You didn't deserve this from me.  You've done nothing to cause me to lie to you".

As painful as this is, the truth really WILL set you free.
Logged

TonyC
Distinguished Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 11413


WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2007, 04:32:57 PM »

sorry for this,
 BPD or not ...cheating , sleeping with , satisfying needs
with someone other than the s/o is wrong...

put all the criteria aside for the moment,

this falls into the range or right and wrong, forget black and white , meds, etc...

some boudaries dont need to be discussed, they are automatically in place when two people committ , in some manner

and i used to say " i will treat you in the same manner you treat me"

so my simple answer... marrried
                                 in a solid relationship
                                 live ins
or if you cant tell me about and you have to lie about it

its wrong

simple word... how to reconcile...dont

tonyc

Logged

ruralstressed
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 261


« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2007, 04:53:07 PM »

Just trying to keep up with you dear.

No words, just listening.

A wise counselor once said something that has stuck with me.

No one changes until they become so uncomfortable they have to change.

The other is:  You can only change yourself, not others. 

I understand what they are saying about him blaming you.
I have the book Codependency.  It is eye opening.
Only you know your strength, weakness and desires. 
Just be happy, life is too short.  If something does not make you smile, find what does.

Love,
Kim
Logged
Taz
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2007, 09:14:41 PM »

Hi guys, I’m sorry I’m just really really low.  My heart is broken, I feel like I’m losing the only thing I ever wanted. 

Turtle, yes it is very hard for me to hear what you are saying.  I know your circumstances were far worse than mine and you want me to take control of things.  But I feel that I cannot extricate myself from loving him.  I wish someone would just kill me so that I didn’t have to feel this or stop loving him.

It is very hard for me to see him as an evil manipulator the way some of you have described.  No doubt the pain I feel is the same regardless, but I have seen the goodness in this person and I can’t give up on that.  It is in my nature, and maybe it’s my fatal flaw, that I love this way, that I believe in the intrinsic goodness and worth of people I care about, even when they hurt me.

I am taking some time off this weekend to attend a retreat/workshop.  I need some space but I think I’m gonna end up crying through this workshop.  My anxiety levels are so high that I had a panic attack last week – couldn’t catch my breath, had palpitations, my hands became cold, I felt like throwing up, my vision went dim and my hearing went dull.  I felt like I was going into shock and going to collapse. 

This happened after I had an argument with him on the phone and he repeatedly brought up a break up.  I was very emotional and crying and I said mean things that were agitating him as well. 

I felt some weird tingly, skin-crawling sensation and it was like I needed to get out of my skin.  I might really have hurt myself or jumped out the window to stop the feeling.  I’m glad I didn’t but now I’m just scared.

He’s no longer in his zen state and has gone back to being his depressed self.  Bdawn, you asked what catastrophic event had taken place to trigger his ‘moment of insanity’ – he thought he had lost everything.  That everything that meant something was gone.  It’s how I feel now and it’s the reason I can’t keep my irrational thoughts under control.

And when he caved in, he realized how low he had sunk – that’s why he decided to seek help.  I can only surmise that he didn’t recognize himself anymore.  He had always prided himself on being the perfect partner when he found his love.  And I think it shocked and repulsed him how far from that ideal he has come.  I’m not saying he didn’t enjoy the experience or that he didn’t consciously make that decision.  But he is also traumatized by the way things are now.  So traumatized that he’s trying to push me out of his life.

He told me that he is carrying an immense amount of guilt and it is very hard for him to get past it and say that he will be with me.  It feels like he is losing how he feels about me very quickly  because instead of taking responsibility for it and deciding he will make things better, he is drowning in his own guilt and self-hate.

I am traumatized too because yes, I cannot trust that he will never do this again.  And I can feel him slipping through my fingers.  It’s like he’s in a coma and every now and then he wakes up and is sure he wants to be with me.  Then he just closes his eyes and everything is forgotten. 

Yes, Former_fo, I’m sure it was a prostitute.  Because he doesn’t have many friends to begin with.  Actually, at first, I even thought he was just lying about having cheated on me just to get my attention.  But now, it has sunk in that he did betray me this way. 

I don'tt feel like he was telling me just enough to get my sympathy and then reel me back in.  When he confessed, I saw that he fully expected me to leave him.  I would not have known if he hadn't said anything.  It is his nature that he can't keep things from me, that he feels almost compelled to be honest with me.  I am not sure if this experience has changed him though...

He has not blamed me for it; I am the one who feels guilt because I knew what kind of state he was in the day before he did it.  Because I didn't want to get drawn into his madness, I refused to go over and see him.  If I had, then he might never have gone off the deep end.  Or, it might have happened either way, perhaps on another occasion.

Now - after his initial burst of clarity where he told me he wanted to be with me, and nothing else mattered – he keeps pushing me away and telling me he wishes I would find someone else who would be so good to me.  Even though this is something I do not want to hear, I feel that he is saying this with sincerity, because he wants me to be happy and he is hurting inside that he is not the man he thought he would be.

Just that for me, his idea of liberation (me not having him in my life) feels like imprisonment, because I am not free to love and express my love for someone I care so much about.

I saw a counselor yesterday and he feels a temporary separation is in order.  I am willing to do this, but I think my partner will not.  He is so low now too, I think he can't bring himself to trust in something like that.  My feeling is that he would rather just give up on me and wallow in self-pity and guilt, instead of giving us a chance to take a break and work on ourselves first, then later as a couple.

I will bring it up with his psychiatrist when I see him next week and see what he says.  For now, I'm just trying to survive a minute at a time...
Logged
willowtree007
Guest
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2007, 10:24:57 PM »

Taz,
I once was where you are now. There is no hurry to come to a conclusion. Just let things unfold as they will.
Wil
Logged
ruralstressed
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 261


« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2007, 11:46:25 PM »

My herc, my husband was in such a severe state of depression when I met him.  I really had no idea.  He was so much fun, so adventurous, yet he has a very sad face often.  When I finally was invited to his home, I realized the extent of his sadness.  His bp wife ran off with the contractor remodeling their house in 2001.  I met him in 2005 but not one single thing was different from the day the contractor quit working.  She had been randomly continuing to come to get this or that from the house she left behind.  He lived a tortured existance.  I tried to run.  I did not need this, but it was too late, I had fallen in love.  I still kept trying to leave him.  I found out within a month that he had been a "player" before meeting me.  Several instant messages, emails, phone calls from different women trying to get him to respond, but he refused.  The came the adult site.  Oh yeah, he was having lots of sex with lots of different women but prior to me. 

What I am getting at is... I did leave him.  Several times.  I set the limits.  His self esteem was so low he needed the attention.  It is classic to become promiscuous after someone you thought loved you turns you away.  I tried to just date and not get too serious, but he is a gentle loving soul that just wants and needs love.  I told him no for over a year, than I said yes and married him.  Believe me, I tested him over and over.  Even set up a profile on that adult site to bait him.  LOL.  I followed my heart but I listened to my head.  We are very happily married for 7 months now. 

Now I am seeing what his past has done to him.  What his ex did to him.  He is in counseling.  He is a good man.  He still likes to look at porn, but not much, he has me now, lol.  He would never ever do anything to destroy our relationship.  Besides, some of the video online is exciting.  Yeah, he has gotten where he tells me if he has seen something he wants me to see too.  It is all perfectly human, he is not addicted.  He is a full testosterone male. 

Taking a break for yourself is good.  I tested and tested and took mini vacations and time outs, and put off getting serious until I knew I trusted him.  I knew I loved him already. 

Only you know what is best for you, but right now, you need to breathe, sit back, take inventory and be proactive, not reactive.  Understand? 

Wish best wishes,
Kim
Logged
Former_Fool

Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 01:44:05 AM »


Taz posted 

Quote
Yes, Former_fo, I’m sure it was a prostitute.
 
You are the one who is there and you must trust your own instincts --- right or wrong.


Having said that, the following quote from you confirms the very reason why I suggested that you be careful:
 
Quote
I would not have known if he hadn't said anything. 


I was simply trying to urge some degree of caution and explain that there is almost no limit to the deception that most true BP's will employ.  It is important to remember that by the time things really get bad the BP has already devalued their victim/partner.  Like I said before, I have no way to know if any of that is true in your case.  I only know that BP's will often do/say whatever it takes to suck their victims back in when they still want to play them for a while longer.

Many on this board have trusted, re-trusted and re-trusted their BP's only to be burned over and over despite the fact that the non partner felt totally comfortable that their renewed trust was solidly based upon how well they thought knew their BP, still loved their BP, thought they could accurately read their BP's emotions and/or facial expressions, their BP's new (convincing) promises, and yes --- sometimes the BP's soul-cleansing confessions that just HAD to be true THIS TIME.

I realize how difficult this is for you to deal with and I hope things go your way when all is said and done.

 :Fact:
Logged
Her Mama
formerly "Ks Step Mom"
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 3136


« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 08:26:26 AM »

Hi guys, I’m sorry I’m just really really low.  My heart is broken, I feel like I’m losing the only thing I ever wanted. 

But I feel that I cannot extricate myself from loving him.  I wish someone would just kill me so that I didn’t have to feel this or stop loving him.

... but I have seen the goodness in this person and I can’t give up on that.  It is in my nature, and maybe it’s my fatal flaw, that I love this way, that I believe in the intrinsic goodness and worth of people I care about, even when they hurt me.

This happened after I had an argument with him on the phone and he repeatedly brought up a break up.  I was very emotional and crying and I said mean things that were agitating him as well. 

... he thought he had lost everything.  That everything that meant something was gone. 

And when he caved in, he realized how low he had sunk – that’s why he decided to seek help.  I can only surmise that he didn’t recognize himself anymore.  He had always prided himself on being the perfect partner when he found his love.  And I think it shocked and repulsed him how far from that ideal he has come.  I’m not saying he didn’t enjoy the experience or that he didn’t consciously make that decision.  But he is also traumatized by the way things are now.  So traumatized that he’s trying to push me out of his life.

He told me that he is carrying an immense amount of guilt and it is very hard for him to get past it and say that he will be with me.  It feels like he is losing how he feels about me very quickly  because instead of taking responsibility for it and deciding he will make things better, he is drowning in his own guilt and self-hate.

He has not blamed me for it; I am the one who feels guilt because I knew what kind of state he was in the day before he did it.  Because I didn't want to get drawn into his madness, I refused to go over and see him.  If I had, then he might never have gone off the deep end.  .  Or, it might have happened either way, perhaps on another occasion.

I saw a counselor yesterday and he feels a temporary separation is in order.  I am willing to do this, but I think my partner will not.  He is so low now too, I think he can't bring himself to trust in something like that. 

I just want to take you in my arms and rock you like one of my kids, wipe your tears, and tell you everything is going to be okay.  I have been exactly where you are and I know it is a special kind of hell.

Since these options are not available, all I can tell you is, I understand.  The one, most simple, most honest thing you can do for yourself and him right now is to separate what is truly his responsibility in this, from what is yours. 

You are making excuses for his behavior, not just to us but to yourself and you are taking on too much (all) of the blame for a situation that you had no control over.  You have to stop.

I know it's hard.  I did this for seven years with Little Bit's dad, and never found peace until I let go.  I still wish for something better for him.  I still hope for a better future for him.  I still care.  I just don't take responsibility for his happiness anymore.  He has to do that.  If it never comes to him, it would be very sad, not only for him but the children.  However, I have come to realize I gave all I could.  It's not my fault. 

He had a completely free ride on my tab for the last 8 years and HE CHOSE not to do what he needed to do to make his life better.  For the last year I paid every single bill for him except one, his child support from his first marriage.  (for the first 7 years I paid that too) 

He will likely go to prison on Thursday for not taking care of what was his responsibility.  He didn't pay his child support.  Literally, his own freedom and selfish desires, at the risk of prison, wasn't worth $151.00 a week.  It reinforces for me that no matter what I did for this man, it would have never been enough for him to change.  In some ways it will be a relief, in other's, a disaster.  I'm sad for our kids.  I'm angry that I'll be the one here that has to try to explain to a 4 and a 6 year old where their Daddy is.  Again, he made that choice.  It wasn't mine to make.  He makes everyone suffer for his problems and needs yet when it comes to the children and I, if there is a problem, he cannot be found.  Not fair.

It wasn't until I let go of his pain, that my own pain could begin to heal.

I would do anything to save you from this pain but you have to do this.  You have to stop blaming yourself.  Every single person is responsible for their own actions (or inaction as inaction is an act of omission). 

You love him.  You want to take the pain away from this person.  You want to protect your love and this man, and the future you saw for your relationship, from any and all harm.  These are valid and understandable feelings.  However, when you step back, just a little bit, and truly look at what you can change, you will realize that you and your life and the way you live your life are the only things you have any control over.

Let him own his behavior.  You can't.  You didn't betray.  He did.

 
Logged

Learn from your experiences in the past but do not live there.  To do that steals from today. 
Live in the present with an eye to the future and leave the past where it belongs.
turtle
Distinguished Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 5316



WWW
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 09:20:36 AM »


Turtle, yes it is very hard for me to hear what you are saying.  I know your circumstances were far worse than mine and you want me to take control of things.  But I feel that I cannot extricate myself from loving him.  I wish someone would just kill me so that I didn’t have to feel this or stop loving him.

Taz, my circumstances were NOT far worse than yours -- you just don't see that yet. 

I hope you are not being literal in your last sentence here.  It was just a few days ago that you posted being worried for your own suicidal thoughts.  And later on in this post you talk about what a toll this is taking on you physically and mentally. I know you say you love this man and maybe you do, but it may not be the love that you think it is. My own personal opinion is that you're addicted to him and to the constant drama this relationship provides.

No relationship should make you want to die!

I'm worried for you Taz.  I'm glad you have an appointment with a counselor. I hope and pray that individual can guide you to make some good decisions for yourself - whatever those decisions might be.

The separation would be a wonderful thing for you.  I really hope you can commit to that time for yourself.  I don't know what your spiritual beliefs are, but for whatever it's worth, please know that I am praying for you -- for clarity of mind, for peace of mind, and for relief from this situation whether you're with him or not.

Turtle
Logged


Former_Fool

Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 09:46:39 AM »

Taz,

After making the post directly above, I went back and re-read your latest post again.  After some additional thought, I would prefer to have been able to edit what I said --- but of course I have no way to do that.  I stand by those comments, but in hindsight would have said things a little differently.  Please allow me to start anew here:

Previously I asked if you were 100% certain that your BP partner actually went to a prostitute (as opposed to some other female acquaintance) ... or were you just going by what your BP partner told you.  You replied that you are SURE it was a prostitute.  However, 3 or 4 sentences later, you say that you would never have known if he hadn't told you about it.

I think I get it now.  You are SURE because that is what he told you --- and you believe him.  You are also desperately wanting to salvage your relationship because you care so deeply for him.  That is all fine as it is entirely your place to make those calls.  Not mine.

Rather than comment or speculate any further about your situation, I would like to share a little about my personal BPD experience.  Yes, the details of my experience are not identical to yours or any other posters here, but I can guarantee you that many (if not the vast majority) can sadly agree that the underlying theme is all too familiar to them.

I had never even heard of BPD until I accidentally found BPDFamily about a year ago.  Unfortunately, that was long after my divorce was final and my ex-wife BPD was out of my life forever.  So why do I continue to come here long after that tragedy had finally ended?  Like some here, I am still searching for answers as to WHY, and WHAT exactly happened.  Even after it was over, the BPD train wreck left me dazed, confused, depressed and wondering how I got out alive.  Most particularly I wondered how someone who professed to love me so much could have treated me so badly.  Although I have never started a single thread, or asked a single question... the people here have helped me more than I can ever put into words by sharing their stories and clinical info.

After a little over 17 years of marriage to the most beautiful and loving woman I had ever known --- I did the hardest thing I've ever done in my life... I walked away.  To say I loved her deeply (and still do) would be the greatest understatement of a lifetime.  More accurately, I guess I loved half of her very deeply.  The half that isn't BPD.

While I was not (and am not) perfect, I was a good and faithful husband to her.  I never threatened or physically harmed her in any way, I never raised my voice or called her names, and I was a very good provider.  Out of boredom, she worked part-time for s short while until we were blessed with a beautiful baby girl in our 4th year of marriage.  After that, my comfortable income allowed her to stay at home and raise our child.  In our 17+ years together, I never once demanded that she have dinner on the table or that the house be kept a certain way (although she was an excellent housekeeper... as well as an exceptional mother).  I always had plenty, and didn't care what we ate or when.  I even did the cooking (and the dishes) whenever she would let me.

Like most well meaning husbands, I still managed to occassionally miss signals and sometimes failed her emotionally in some ways.  I can at least say that I never missed the important stuff like birthdays, anniversaries, etc. All-in-all I thought things were pretty good for both of us throughout most of the marriage.  Hang on though, this is where the good stuff takes a hard left turn.

We married only 2 months after I first met her.  RED FLAG #1:  She was the hot and heavy pursuer.  Like so many other stories told here, I was her instant soul-mate.  She couldn't breathe without me, etc., etc.  She was hot and I was hooked... the rest as they say... is history.  The passionate love, the warmth and the incredible sex continued right up until the day I walked away.

So why did I go you ask?  A better question is why did I stay so long.  RED FLAG #2:  She came from a very bad childhood and she had learned to be a total manipulator.  I can't fathom the number of instances where she blew up over nothing, broke things around the house and lied about even little things.  Over time I even had to have several holes in the drywall patched because she stuck her foot through the walls in anger when I wasn't home.  Each time she told me a different story like she fell  while carrying something and her knee supposedly went thru the wall.  That got her by until one time when I was home and saw her put her foot thru the wall after a bad telephone call from her mother.

Starting around the 3rd year of our marriage (first 2 years seemed like heaven) she would periodically blow up, cuss me, and hit me (I'm a big guy but I just don't hit women under any circumstances).  Each time though, within minutes she would be on her knees apologizing and swearing it would never happen again.  Then, for the next few days, weeks, even months she would swallow me up with love and affection like never before.  The perfect wife.

In the interest of saving time and space, just be assured that this cycle continued throughout the entire marriage.  I loved her so much that I was blind to the rollercoaster and it's effects.  I just waltzed right back into the game like the dumb-dumb I was and none the wiser.

Just before the 15 year mark of our marriage I discovered that she had recently begun cheating on me.  When I confronted her she folded like a cheap tent.  She was about to lose everything... including a first class lifestyle.  I still loved her so much, but I was shattered.  Mostly due to me being the dumb-dumb, we spent countless days talking and trying to rebuild the relationship.  I didn't have to ask many questions since she was confessing and cleansing her soul faster than a frenchman shakes in a thunderstorm.

Because I just couldn't let go, and due to being a dumb-dumb, I bought everything she confessed and allowed her to convince me that we could make a new start in a neighboring state.  I was fortunate to be in a position to do it so I just quit working for over 2 years.  We sold our home and bought another in a beautiful resort area that we both had always loved visiting.  In our reconciliation conversations she calmly and cleverly blamed me for everything that "made her have an affair".  She said it was things like I worked too much, traveled too much and came home tired, etc.  Once again, being a dumb-dumb, I took every ounce of the guilt and decided to stay home after our move.

I only THOUGHT that things were bad at times when I was working, they got ten times worse with me at home.  The explosions (verbal and physical abuse) became more frequent and because I was now suspicious --- the lies and manipulation became transparent. There were no more affairs, but the lies were about the stupidest things you can imagine.  The capper for me was when I started reflecting with her (in a positive way) about the early years after we met... and darned if she didn't start telling on herself (without realizing it) about all kinds of little lies she told me back then.

Yes, by this time I was contributing to the increased frequency of the explosions by calling her on some of the lies as they came out.  Boy, she didn't like that.  But, I found out that neither did I (the lies that is). 

The last straw was when I decided to have a long, serious talk with her about the state of our marriage.  I wanted to face up to evreything where I had/was failing and asked her to do the same.  She got sooooo angry and began to tell me how she had been the perfect wife (except for the little old affair which was still my fault).  She threw up a hundred things that I had done wrong from the start of the marriage --- of which 99% were things she had asked or agreed for me to do at the time.  Petty crap like me buying a replacement TV (the old one crapped out) many years ago without consulting her.  She was with me in the store when I bought it and was all smiles.  Go figure?

The bottom line is that true BPD's will agree with most everything you do... then months/years later slam you with it to justify their intrinsic anger.  They often (in their minds) build up points by agreeing and agreeing --- then they get angry because they have been too agreeable, for too long.  Those here who say that BPD's have incredible memory of things they want to use against you are spot on.

Many BPD's will lie just to see how it floats.  But they will never allow blame to stick to them for long.  They will often tell you what you want to hear (even offering quasi-confessions) and then later swear that they never said that.  Laying guilt and offering passionate sex (especially make-up sex) are chief among the tools in their arsenal.  Their volatile nature and ability to fake emotions makes it impossible to have and honest/serious discussion about anything they have done wrong.

RED FLAG #3:  Throughout our marriage, my ex-wife could be right in the middle of an explosion aimed at me, the phone would ring and she would be so sugary sweet it would make you wanna puke a bowling ball.

RED FLAG #4:  She could cry a puddle of tears on command and thirty seconds later be as dry eyed as anybody.  Fake emotion on demand.

The point is that we non's (and I'm the worst culprit) have a history of excusing away all of the RED FLAGS right from the start of the relationship.  We fall so desperately in love that nothin' or nobody can tell us any different.  In fact, up until her affair at year 15, not only would I have made excuses for her behaviours... anybody who tried to warn me would have lost their teeth.  That's how blind and how SURE I was.

I believed anything she told me.  I'd have sworn that she was the most honest and loving person on this earth.  She had me totally hooked and there's no way I could imagine living without her.  She gave me highs I'd never known.  She loved me so much (so I thought) that nothing would ever break us apart.  She was my everything.  I was blind and a dumb-dumb.

She has remarried and I have elected not to (so far).  I've been no contact since the day I left.  That works for me.  I've never met her new husband, but my daughter tells me she is doing the same things to him.  He is reported to be the most mild mannered guy in the world and she lied to him about us, her affair, etc. (you can guess who's the villain).  Like us, they married almost immediately after they met.  She was his greatest find in life.  So sweet, so caring, etc.

Luckily, my bad experience has not soured me on marriage or women at all.  I prefer to think that I am just a lot more careful and choosey.

I don't know that my rambling story (and I left out a lot) will help you Taz or anyone else, but IMO being desperately in love is no answer when it comes to BPD's and other disordered partners.  It isn't a level playing field and we non's are soooooo blind.  We immediately want to excuse everything bad that this incredibly attractive and passionate person does.  We want the half that shows us love... but like heads of lettuce... you can't buy just a half.

Once again, be careful.  You may be one of the fortunate few, but then again, you may not be.

My sincere best wishes for you and your relationship.  Just be careful.

 :Fact:








Logged
gambaru
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 488


« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2007, 09:53:01 AM »

Taz -

Oh, please.  PLEASE!  Can you not SEE that this little "confession" is designed to bring you back in line?  "Do what I want or I'll do it again!"

My ex pulled this identical stunt (not with a prostitute, but she may as well have been).  Right down to the "I have sunk so low I don't recognize myself and I need help" charade.  That is BPD speak for "I don't know how to get away with my double life and I'm afraid I'll lose both of my sources of supply when I get caught" (which he did).  "I lost hope we would work it out" was the excuse with him, too...despite the fact I had agreed to support his "recovery", despite the fact he knew I had feelings for him, despite the fact I was understandably cautious and had EVERY REASON NOT TO TRUST HIM...he spitefully lashed out for my crime of daring to hold him accountable for his appalling deeds, and for having the unmitigated brass to deliver the consequences of his behaviour just as I'd forewarned him I'd do.

That is why I would bet my retirement fund that he is lying.  Most likely it's an ongoing relationship.  When you didn't respond the way he wanted to his threats of suicide, he simply raised the stakes.  He KNEW another sexual partner would devastate you - just as mine knew.  And here you are, jumping to whatever tune he calls for fear he'll "lose hope" again.

Listen to me carefully, Taz:  People who love you do not deliberately hurt you.  People who love you do not visit emotional devastation upon you, no matter HOW MUCH they are hurting.  

And it was deliberate.  I don't give a toss what excuse he's selling you.  He knows this is killing you, and he is reveling in the thrill of having found a way to twist you round into pretzel knots.

I haven't read carefully, but has he bothered to get himself tested for STD's?  Has he offered to set up a way to make himself accountable to you for his time?  Has he offered anything in the way of amends, other than his breast-beating litany of "how bad he feels" for doing this, but really it's not his fault because he was in pain?

Well...what about YOUR pain, Taz?  Do you realize this jackass is effectively saying, "Help me feel better about screwing you over" ?

On what PLANET is that love?

And please, for the love of Chr!st, don't tell yourself he loves you "the best he can" and that for him, this is significant.  It's rotten meat he's feeding you whilst he dines on filet mignon, my dear.  There is plenty there in the cupboard, and even if there isn't, he's perfectly content to feed you poison as long as you'll continue eating it.

Listen to me, honey, and I mean to be kind:  if he really loved you, he would have experienced such shame and remorse for doing something he knew would devastate you that he would NEVER have confessed anything beyond he had done something wrong, he knew it was unforgiveable, he was going to get help, and with G-d's grace, once he was capable of acting like a decent human being, he would do whatever possible, by whatever means necessary, to win back your trust and your heart.

Instead, he's already setting you up to forgive him if he does something like this again.  And he will, the very next time you draw a boundary.

This has nothing to do with you.  It has everything to do with him, and his illness.  You are the collateral damage.  Please, Taz, please get out of the line of fire.

Logged
gambaru
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 488


« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2007, 10:08:47 AM »

Addendum -

I read back and saw that you feel he is "slipping" away.  I know this feeling.  I'll stand by my prior comment that this is not about you.  What this is about, Taz, is whether or not he is willing to do the work required to address his issues.

If you love him as you clearly must - then realize he must make this decision about himself, for himself and by himself alone.

If you attempt to cajole, plead, beg, reassure...you are only muddying the water for him.

Give him the respect and the space to decide for himself whether he wants to continue on this path of self-destruction or truly heal.

If it's the latter, realize it will be 18 months to 2 years before he is fit to try a healthy relationship, and that's at lightning-speed recovery.  This is all, of course, presuming he is dxBPD.

That's the deal.  Whether his love for you will tip the scale for him or not is NOT something you get to weigh in about.  NOT if you really love him.  He must make that decision on his own, without your input...or it will mean nothing but a lifetime of empty promises, broken covenants, and shattered dreams.

That's been my experience.  Think of it as a test of your love for him.  Let go of the reigns.  They're his, not yours.  If he takes them up and starts sawing on them, you've got some chance.

I know it's hard.  But IMHO, it really is the only thing you can do.  Clearly state what you want and what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do and then BACK OFF and let him figure it out.  Trust that he is grown enough to make a decision...and stop trying to protect him from living with the consequences of his choices.

Hugs and love, Taz.  You're in my prayers.
Logged
Former_Fool

Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2007, 10:18:59 AM »

Gambaru,

I sincerely hope that Taz will fully grasp the frank reality of your analysis regarding her predicament.

I'm relatively new at posting, but have to believe that (upon reading her story) most others can also see that she is most likely being played.

I do not blame Taz as it reminds me that I was equally blind not so long ago.

I wish I'd had this place to warn me.  Maybe it would have made a difference?

 :Fact:

Logged
Felicity
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 258


« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2007, 02:17:06 PM »

Taz, I think we can all agree that this boy is an ∂ƒ∫∆˚. 

I am saddened to read that you still want to be with him and are now fighting to keep him with you despite him purposefully hurting you.  You did not cause him to cheat.  He is manipulating you to keep you hanging on.  He noticed that you were getting stronger and starting to think for yourself, so in typical BPD fashion, he upped the stakes and brought all of your focus back onto him. 

Now you are trying to get him to stay with you.  Why?  Because you love him?  Okay, but he does he love you?  He does not act like a man in love.  You are wasting so much on this jerk when there are tons of guys out there that will love you like a real man should!

If he is really about to fall apart, then let him.  You are worth more than him.  You should not kill youself trying to save him.  He doesn't deserve it.

After all you've done for him, what has he done?  Abuse you more.  When you help him through this cheating 'crisis', what will he do?  Abuse you more.  You're getting the short end of the stick, hon!

My exh cheated on my 5 times. All 5 times were my fault.  I didn't make him feel desirable by jumping through hoops for him (even though I was jumping through plenty of hoops).  Eventually, the cheating episodes got kind of tame so he moved on to a different way to create drama and keep me off balance: money. 

Now that we are divorcing, he's using visitation to keep me off balance.  There's always something.

Taz, I care about you a lot and it kills me to see you in such pain.  This guy is no good.  You are not responsible for his mental health.  It is not your job to help him through his BPD crisis.  It's not your job.  It's not your fault.  It's not your fault.  It's not your fault. 
Logged
TonyC
Distinguished Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 11413


WWW
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2007, 03:37:00 PM »

taz
how long do you see yourself surviving this relationship, you know its a cycle ,, the honeymoon phase...the ok phase...then the it sucks phase...

what do you want...do you feel the need to be abused ?

step back and look at it from a distance...

6 months from now where you be?what phase
tonyc
Logged

gambaru
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 488


« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »

Taz -

Since I can't seem to shut the h-ll up about this subject, let me add to the wisdom Former Fool, Felicity, Turtle, and TonyC are saying, but maybe I can soften my tone so it doesn't grate as harshly on your ears as my last post must have done.

I know how it is.  We all do.  I'm betting that right now, you're saying to yourself that we don't understand.

And, hell, maybe you're right about that.  I could be wrong.  I frequently am.  If I am not wrong, then this post will speak to you.  I don't want to make the mistake of presuming I can psychically divine your current state of mind, so if I slip up in reinforcing my clarity on that score, please let me provide that caveat clearly now.  I realize I do not know all of the details.  But let's see if I do know your mind-set currently.

If you are like I was, right about now you are totally focused on trying to think like he does.  If you are anything like I am, you are probably exceptionally good at doing that - putting yourself into someone else's head, doing your best to see the world through his eyes.  I am guessing that you are an exceptionally empathetic human being, that you can go from zero to dialing into someone else's emotional state in less time than it takes for your partner to issue a heavy sigh.

I'm guessing that you are now and for some time have been acutely attuned to his every shift in vocal intonation, every subtle change in facial expression, body language, even the charge and heaviness of the very air betwixt the two of you when you are face to face.

I'm guessing you have read or are now reading everything you can get your hands on in order to perfect your "profile" of this man and enhance your understanding of him.

I'm guessing that his tears of remorse read with you as completely, utterly sincere.  And at the time he sheds them, they may very well be.

I'm guessing that at first blush, he presented as either a) having the ability to do this very same 'dialing in' towards you; or b) so deeply appreciative and grateful of your ability to 'dial in' to him that for perhaps the first time in your life you felt truly seen, valued, and appreciated.  I am guessing that he expressed both/either of these abilities by catering to your every physical whim...coffee the way you like it first thing in the morning, say...offering to do endless small acts of service to make your daily life easier...remembering little details you'd only mentioned once...perhaps giving you that special intense look of utter devotion you had always dreamt of seeing in another human being's eyes but had abandoned hope of ever seeing whilst still drawing breath on the planet.  The main theme will be - he seemingly does any and everything in his power to anticipate your needs or wants and harmonize with them.  Or at least - does it frequently enough to have truly made you feel "seen", and cherished, and loved.

How am I doing so far?  Better than 85%?  If not, then disregard what follows, because you'll be quite correct in assuming that I really don't get it, and fair play to you and I'll just cease and desist and shut the h-ll up.

But if I am, in the main, describing the general state of affairs that preceded the blow-up, please read on.

You do NOT have to dismiss all the feelings you perceived in him as nothing but a lie in order to detach with love. 

You do NOT have to devalue him.

You do NOT have to stop loving him.

You do NOT have to 'give up' on him.

What you DO have to wrap your head round is this:  your understanding will not help him.

You are NOT helping him by continuing to display your ability to get inside his head and replicate what it "feels like" to be him.

Why is this so?  Because you cannot lead him back out to where "normal" is.  You may very well be able, like Orpheus, to follow your beloved into hell.  But he cannot follow you out.

That isn't how it works, dearest.  I wish to G-d it were.

Why is this so?  Because the way out of hell is an escape route each of us must carve on our own.  And, sadly, the way into his private hell is not the same way out.

He went IN as a child.  He grew to manhood there.  The tunnel he slid down is now far to small for him to crawl back through.

What you can do for him is show him how it feels to live topside by conveying both your preference for it (no morbid fascination with his "special pain" nor buy-in to the idea that he's in pain because he's specially "sensitive" or "deep") and your firm and non-negotiable expectation that he join you there.  You can communicate that you understand what it looks like from where he is, but that nonetheless, he is there because he is CHOOSING to be there and he needs to start moving out of hell...because you see, he is right now literally incapable of seeing what you see aboveground.  He is very likely in the throes of a love affair with his disorder; he's so intense and emotional and sensitive, you see.  I have seen many a BPD model it this way; they confuse their illness as an unavoidable side effect of their special "depth".  Bah!  It's a sham.  By focusing on his pain, you validate his self-delusion and assist him in justifying his childish and selfish behaviour.

No matter how much he truly may feel for you, this is NOT about love.  This is about his belief in his essential worth AND his own belief in his ability to heal.  This is about whether or not he is sick and tired of being sick and tired, whether the fear of further days in hell outweighs the fear of the perils he might encounter/ things he may have to jettison on the way out of hell (like his identity as an exquisitely sensitive creature, victimized and betrayed by all whom he trusted...or a variation on that theme).

Those are things you cannot know, no matter how much you love him...because for that, you would have to literally be inside his skin, experiencing his way of being and harbouring the full history of his life.  We humans do not have that power.  I wish we did.

What you DO have the power to do is hold firmly in your mind the vision of how he, a healthy and whole individual, should behave up to decent standard.  No excuses.  No "understanding".  No clemency. 

If you treat him as a grown man, fully accountable for his behaviour and quite disqualified from exemptions owing to his ever so painful past...it might, just might, afford him a glimpse of hope as to the man he COULD be.  By acting as if he is fully capable of acting like a grown-up, maybe he will see in that mirror cause to have hope that he can actually deliver it.

That means no more listening to his whining, his excuses, his "I feel so terrible!"'s (Good!  What he did was terrible!).  No more treating him as if there were some extenuating circumstances that make his behaviour pardonable.  No.  If you indulge him in that conceit, he will never change.

I hope this is a kinder explanation.  Please realize he cannot feel your pain.  He won't, either, until YOU feel your own pain and end the seductive addiction of feeling his by proxy.

I know.  I did it.  I paid dearly for the indulgence.  Had I drawn a harder line, I'd have spared myself a good deal of misery.  Indeed - my softness may well have accelerated and aggravated his mental illness.

That is not a sin you want on your head, Taz.  Trust me when I say it.

If I'm off completely, again, no harm no foul, and I'll accept that I'm simply wrong.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

But if there is merit here in my words for you, please hold them in your heart and ponder them.  Reflect on what I've said, and see if there are any truths that resonate here for you.

Peace to you, poppet.  You will endure this.  You will.

((Taz))



Logged
willowtree007
Guest
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2007, 08:25:16 PM »

Hi Taz,
I was in counselling trying to heal from his first affair, when he cheated again! My counsellor pleaded with me to see the light and leave...but I loved him! So she gave me a paper (which is still posted on my bedroom wall) and it reads:

And then the day came
when the pain it took
to hang on
was far greater
than the pain it took
to let go.

I needed more pain...and I got it. The last time he cheated, it wasn't that hard to let go at all!
Wil
Logged
Bdawn
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1498


« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2007, 10:06:06 PM »

Quote
I'm guessing that at first blush, he presented as either a) having the ability to do this very same 'dialing in' towards you; or b) so deeply appreciative and grateful of your ability to 'dial in' to him that for perhaps the first time in your life you felt truly seen, valued, and appreciated.  I am guessing that he expressed both/either of these abilities by catering to your every physical whim...coffee the way you like it first thing in the morning, say...offering to do endless small acts of service to make your daily life easier...remembering little details you'd only mentioned once...perhaps giving you that special intense look of utter devotion you had always dreamt of seeing in another human being's eyes but had abandoned hope of ever seeing whilst still drawing breath on the planet.  The main theme will be - he seemingly does any and everything in his power to anticipate your needs or wants and harmonize with them.  Or at least - does it frequently enough to have truly made you feel "seen", and cherished, and loved.

Gambaru, I know your post was meant for Taz, but I just wanted to say that you nailed it! The paragraph above describes my relationship, at least in the early days, with my ex exactly.

Taz, how are you doing? Wow you sure have all the posters here working and pulling for you. Please consider the temporary seperation that your counselor recommended. You really could use some space and time to think and process. Look at it this way. If your bf really really loves you and if he is really serious about making the changes necessary to have a healthy relationship with you, then even if you two break up for a while he will continue to do what he has to do to get better and you will also have a chance to get strong and healthy. Neither of you are emotionally healthy at the moment and how do you expect to build a strong relationship on such a weak foundation. The one and only time that I managed to get my exbf into counselling with me, the therapist recommended that we completely seperate from each other for a least two years. In just one session she couldn't even begin to fathom the depth of his issues but she saw enough of my pain and his anger to know that we didn't stand a chance of making it together. She said we needed at least 2 years to truly heal from the wounds and become healthy and then we could decide if our relationship was really real and worth reconcilling. I think her advice was honest and reasonable. She could have kept us coming back and paying her for help that wasn't going to work, but instead she called it how she saw it and told us to get off the merry-go-round. It made sense to me, does it make sense to you?
Logged
bewildered2
Emeritus
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2990


2 months good stuff, then it was all downhill


« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2007, 12:08:13 PM »

i have a simple answer for you.

he is crazy.
he hurts you.
so dump him.

this madness will go on as long as you let it. it is not a relationship. it is abuse.

the more crap you take, the more you'll get, especially with a borderline.

b2
Logged

A lie does not consist in the indirect position of words, but in the desire and intention, by false speaking, to deceive and injure your neighbour. (Jonathan Swift) "She took me hook, line, and sinker, and I was on dry land!" Richard Pryor
gambaru
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 488


« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2007, 02:35:49 PM »

Bdawn, I've been there; I think this thread strikes at the heart of one of the greatest difficulties in dealing with a BPD'd partner, and that is the stark contrast between how they "read" (how one experiences them when one-on-one) and the black and white "on paper" reality of what they DO.

Just attempting to negotiate that schizm was enough to cause me to fear the onset of schizophrenia!  When I listed out, coldly and without detail, the factual accounting of the things he had done to me, the reality was horrifying.  Rather, my prior willingness to forgive/ tolerate, etc. was horrifying.

It truly is like being "under the ether" when they start with the explanations, isn't it?  And, sadly, it took a smack upside the head with a "clue-by-four" to understand what was happening.  The thing is, they "read" as so sincere, so desperately earnest whilst they're doing all that explaining and making all those teary-eyed declarations of love - because they really do mean it...AT THAT MOMENT.  But to them, emotions are like weather patterns.  Once out of their line of vision, the feelings dissipate as readily as the dew.

Once I could represent it to myself that way, it was easier to hold firm in my resolve to stay NC.  Took quite the emotional battering to get me there, though, I'm sorry to have to admit.

Logged
Taz
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2007, 03:06:11 AM »

Thank you all for your posts.  It means so much to me at a time when I'm so low.

I don’t mean to make excuses for him.  But I really don’t think he is ‘playing’ me, as in I don’t believe he is doing any of this on purpose.  Because he has nothing to gain from doing it.  He can’t trust that anyone would stand by him anyway, let alone me.  He fully expected to be dumped after he confessed.  And now, it’s like he’s in the twilight zone of depression, and he doesn’t even know what he wants or who he is.  He’s not actively trying to win me back or anything.

Former fool, when I said I was sure it was a prostitute – I meant that  I am sure he did not cheat on me with someone he knew.  Because he doesn’t have many friends to begin with, and none of them are female.  He pushed away 2 people I considered his closer friends when we last saw them in January.  He had fallen out with one of them last year, over what seems like a misunderstanding, and when the other tried to patch them up, he ended up being blacklisted too.

I mentioned that I would not have known if he hadn’t told me, meaning that he could have just kept mum.  He chose to tell me, knowing fully well I might leave him there and then.  The reason I believe his confession was sincere is because he has always been afraid that I would leave him.  He doesn’t feel good enough for me, and has big issues about the way he looks and where he is in life. 

Yes his confession alone is not enough.  And he said he would get tested for STDs, although he hasn’t gone yet.  He has become extremely lethargic.  He doesn’t want to leave the house, doesn’t do his laundry and just plays computer games the whole day.  I think my partner is too deep in his own depression to even remember my importance to him. 

If he had intentionally done all of this to reel me in, then he’s really going about it the wrong way.  Because I don’t see what he is getting from cocooning himself at home and pushing me away.  I talk to him every other day but I feel almost like his imaginary friend. 

It’s so painful to live everyday feeling my best friend slipping away.
How many times can a heart be broken before it ceases to beat?  Sigh.


Gambaru, a lot of what you’re saying resonates with me.  And that’s why this is all the more painful for me.  If I didn’t understand any of your words, it would be much easier for me because I’d only believe what I think.  But I believe what I feel and I also believe what you’re saying.  And I don’t know how to bridge that disparity.  That’s why I said sometimes I wish someone would just kill me.

I love him with every breath and now it hurts to breathe.  I still feel suicidal at times.  I came the closest when I had the panic attack.  Although I’ve read they are not serious, it does make you feel like you are going to die anyway.  For a few moments, it felt like nothing else mattered, that I just needed everything to stop.

It scares me that I am intermittently in this frame of mind.  A year ago, I had an adverse reaction to some medicine and I ended up in hospital with bad heart palpitations.  It was the first time I felt my own mortality and I remember being scared that I might die and never see my partner again.  I try to remember that moment now, whenever I feel like I want to take the easy way out.

It’s like I swore a silent oath to always be there for him.  It is who I am.  I can’t give up on people I care about.  My sense of self and the way I understand the world is tied very tightly to the way I care about and treat people I love. 

It’s like how my partner felt about himself.  He never thought himself capable of cheating on me, and prided himself on being above it.  Then when he did what he did, his sense of self collapsed.  He betrayed himself, not just me. 

I am trying to rationalize things in my mind to avoid falling into the same trap.  I want to be able to give him his space while still having the freedom to love him and the peace of mind to work on myself.  It does seem like a separation is the only solution here. 

Even though it will hurt me, I guess I am willing to do this, if it will help both of us.  I don’t know how I will be able to conjure up such courage though...the courage to risk losing something that I cannot risk losing.
Logged
Felicity
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 258


« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2007, 12:58:56 PM »

Taz,

You sound a lot stronger today, and I'm glad for that.  Have you been tested for STDs yet? 

I'll pray for you. 
Logged
gambaru
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 488


« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2007, 03:00:51 PM »

Hi, Taz -

I know exactly how that feels. Or at least, what you're describing is what I felt and I used the same phrases and thought processes to express it.

Here's the best I can do in the way of a pointer, maybe you can use it to trace it to the part of your personal belief system you feel you're violating by detaching from him.

You're assuming that he feels exactly the way you feel.  Meaning, his internal experience of what you label "love" is identical to the internal experience you label as "love".  Or, that your internal sensations attached to the word "grief" are identical to the internal sensations he attaches to the word "grief".

This is not the case. Even if you both were BPD, it would at best be an 80%+ commonality.

THAT is the part that feels "unbearable".  He is not who or what you thought he was.  He certainly felt as though he were, I'm sure.  And the only way I dealt with this crazy-making dichotomy when I faced it is this:  the seeds of that person are indeed there - and THAT is what enabled him to respond to you at those times when you "felt" him.  The problem is, that person is not yet fully realized; may never be fully realized.  You have at best caused those seeds to germinate.  Now he and he alone must water and nurture the seedlings.

It seems as though you believe that he was in the same place YOU would have to be before you could violate your idea of yourself/ betray someone you love/ etc.

This is not the case.  Hear me, please, when I say this:  A BPD does not HAVE a solid idea of who he is.  A BPD, therefore, has no internal identity to "betray".  YOU do.  But HE can only betray his vision of his ability to match you.  THAT, I believe, is what is crushing him; the fear that he cannot become your equal.

What is likely paining him is NOT that he violated who he is; what is likely paining him is that he discovered who he is, and it's not a very nice person.

Now, I will say if this is a painful realization to him, and he is actually managing to endure this shame and pain without painting you black or running right into a new relationship or indulging in, say, drugs or alcohol or whatever - then there is a chance that he MIGHT be disgusted enough with who he is to actively and aggressively seek therapy and recovery.

This he will not do if you behave as though the nasty piece of business he displayed himself to be is acceptable to you.  If you take any responsibility for it, any at all - you are giving him a free pass out of the shame and the guilt, and he will have no motivation whatever to change himself.  You have to be just as disgusted with him as he is with himself, with - and this is the tricky part - with the full faith that he is not destined to remain that way.  Unless, of course, he decides to continue to wallow and whine and do nothing whatever about his current state of affairs, in which case he has earned your contempt but certainly not your pity.  Will he change?

THAT is the part that only he can decide.

My guess is that your partner is not being completely honest when he says he was going to kill himself and was going out for "one last hurrah".  My guess is that he decided doing so would temporarily make him feel better...and he told himself he was going to kill himself shortly thereafter as a way to rationalize doing something he knew was wrong.

My ex would cheat, then confess, then tell me he "really loved" the new toy...until he came to his senses the next day, sobbing and beating his breast that he'd made a terrible mistake, he knew I would leave him and never forgive him but I should know that he adored me above all others on this earth but was terrified I didn't love him as much as he loved me, etc., etc., etc.  I'm sure as he was mouthing the words that he "really loved Ms. X" even he knew it was crap.  But it was OK to cheat if he "loved" the partner; if he didn't love the new partner, then...oh, goodness...that just makes him a louse and a user, doesn't it?  And of course, within a few weeks or months of taking him back, the cycle would begin anew (I was just unaware of it at the time).

The key here is this:  he must have the courage to face his own evil, own it - and overcome it.  He must be willing to tolerate being loathesome to himself whilst in process of becoming the man he wishes to be.  He must have faith that this can be done - or brute determination to refuse to settle for being such a sick and pathetic creature as he's allowed himself to become.

These are, IMHO, his challenges and his choices.  Perhaps he would never have so much as been aware they existed were it not for the depth of emotion you roused in him.  It's small comfort, I recognize this.  But seeing it this way did make it possible for me to realize I was not responsible for fighting his battles; already he had created new battlefields in my most sacred spaces, and I was engaged full-time in winning those.  The ones he had created in his own mind were, I decided, neither my fault nor my responsibility.  I was doing well enough to win mine, and forgive him for the invasion that made them necessary.
Again, you and your partner are both in my prayers. 
Logged
Former_Fool

Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2007, 05:02:40 PM »

Taz, I'm glad you stopped in again to let us know how you're doing.  Many here are very concerned for you.  Why?  Because in one way or another... WE"VE ALL BEEN WHERE YOU ARE.

It is not my intention to "push" you to get rid of your partner and I have no axe to grind against him.  If anything, as a male myself, I tend to automatically be a little sympathetic of him just because I feel that men sometimes get a raw deal when relationships go badly.  Perhaps that is because we tend not to be as vulnerable and emotional by nature.  That is one of the reasons that I have not called your partner names or told you to "dump him now".

I would like to respond to your latest update, offering you the very best insight that I can, and then I will "butt out".  I say that because I really feel that you are struggling in the face of hearing things that go against your deep feelings for him.  As I said in my previous post... before I saw things clearly for what they were... I would have taken anyone's head off that tried to tell me that my ex was using me, etc.  Before we can (or will) take ALL of the necessary steps, we all have to eventually realize these truths for ourselves... and you are no different.

So here's my take:

1)  The fact that YOU see nothing for him to gain by "confessing" and then acting so depressed --- most likely means NOTHING.  BPD's commonly do and say things that defy all logic.  Most lie when it gains them absolutely nothing.  And, most are actors and have the ability to fake emotions in any situation.  That is what they do.

2)  While it MAY be true that he DID in fact visit a prostitute, your 100% confidence that it WAS a prostitute because "he has no female friends" is on shakey ground at best.  He can easily have female acquaintances that you know nothing about.  He may know other females from school, work or just from meeting in public places.  Upon meeting a female that peaks his interest (even though nothing may have happened at that time), he isn't necessarily going to run home and tell you all about her.  I think you are giving him too much credit, and I can say that because you really don't KNOW... you just believe it.

3)  The fact that he is moping around and just playing video games is concerning.  Most people, including BP's, lose interest in the "fun stuff" when they get depressed.  Moreover, BP's rarely "mope" when they are guilty.  That is, unless they are trying to convince you or play you.

Also, many people (not just BP's) use what I call the "self-punishment" routine to get by.  They think that IF they appear to be overly hard on themselves for what they did --- their partner won't have the heart to pile on.  That sounds a lot like what you are doing.  "He's so depressed, feels so guilty and being so hard on himself... that I feel bad for him.  It just makes me worry and want to cry for him".  Meanwhile, he may very well be thinking... hey, this is working great!  Instead of slamming me and walking away, she actually worries about me and feels sorry for me.  Call me a skeptic.  Call me as being too negative, but this kind of behaviour happens in the real world everyday.

4)  The fact that he has been afraid of losing you (both before and after his indiscretion), means little to nothing.  Virtually all BP's have a constant fear of losing their partners.  Yet, that does not stop them from doing what they do... like lying, cheating, abusing and using.  BP's undermine their relationships at every turn because they always feel that you will eventually leave them anyway.  They constantly push the boundaries in order to force you to prove that you still love them... despite the latest horrible offense they have committed.  Not to mention that they think they can always get you back by lying and manipulation (in most cases we non's reinforce that belief by hanging in there or running right back to them no matter how badly they treat us --- we just cannot live without them, and they realize that over time).

You have to remember that Bp's do not really love their partners.  Rather, they seek unending affection, attention and admiration from them.  So when the relationship eventually ends, it just shows them that YOU never loved them. It's not about them loving you.  They don't have to love you because you are simply a supply of attention and sympathy for them.  They only fear losing that steady supply.  That is, until what you are supplying no longer satisfies their needs --- then they look elsewhere.  In essence, despite your best efforts... at some point you get "devalued" by your BP.

5)  The fact that you feel that, "If he had intentionally done all of this to reel me in, then he’s really going about it the wrong way" --- means almost nothing.  BP's rarely do anything in the way that a rational person would do.  The fact that his actions go against your logic proves nothing.

I fully realize how desperately you love him.  I've been there too.  But, I sincerely hope that you will at least keep the points I (and others) have made in mind as you go forward.  Always remember that love is blind, and that BP's learn early in life to take full advantage of that fact in every possible way.  Lying, pretending and acting are no challenge to them at all.  Moreover, your baseline for determining whether he is being genuine or not has been developed by you simply observing only those behaviours, moods, body language and facial expressions that he has chosen to reveal since the day you met him.  BP's commonly have a whole other side that you never see until the damage has been done.

Just ask others here and find out for yourself how many of them now feel that the (BP) person they first met... the person they loved so desperately... the person they could not live without... turned out to be the same person who ripped them apart and left them broken.  Likewise, ask them too if they would now choose to be with their BP all over again... knowing what they know now.

You have some knowledge (of BP), which is a lot more than I had at the time.  You have read the warnings/cautions.  I sincerely hope that your eyes are now fully open and that you are truly prepared to face whatever lies ahead.

Best wishes in whatever you choose to do.

 :Fact:



Logged
csandra
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2374


« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2007, 07:36:39 PM »

Taz, I have been following this post for a few days and have felt anxious reading the  posts.  I understand where you are coming from, hoping for the best despite present reality.  I too gave my uNPDstbxh the benefit of the doubt.  I have to say that part of what compels me to write and tell you...get out, get out now and don't look back is this:

I could not save my uNPDstbxh.  If it could have been done by MY actions, it would have happened 2 years ago.  When I read YOUR post, I want to make amends for MY past actions.  I want you to save yourself.  I want to save YOU so that what I went through does not seem to be in vain.

 But do you see ?  It is about MY situation and MY uNPDstbxh.  No one can tell you what to do.  We only try to work through our own situations, vicariously.  We feel so strongly because of our OWN issues.  I can't save you any more easily than I could save myself or my marriage or my family.  It's sad, but it is true.  I wish you well on this journey.

 We have all been there, done that, have the t-shirt(and it's the wrong size, wrong color).
Logged

flex60
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2007, 10:39:53 AM »

I am a male, and can only equate, what your friend did to my actions in viet-nam.  I bedded many prostitues there.  For me pro's were nothing more than an exciting form of masterbation. A blow up doll would have sufficed, but it does not breath.  I would often close my eyes and think of my wife.  I gave them none of me, they only gave me a few moments of escape and tension relief.  I saw others with me, shoot water buffalo, shoot at, and frighten friendlies, for relief.  Perhaps I took the easy way out. 
Now that being said, I feel normal, but have some rub off's from BP's.
 
I used to fret about my BPGF being unfaithful, then I came to realized, she had nothing to give away, but the pure act of sex, so her actions were not much different then mine were above. BP's are one step back in evolution, in an emotional setting, they respond to their feelings, they have no internal management, if they feel horny, they are most likely going to make out with someone.  If they are hungry, they eat, if they feel angry, they will be angry, and then find a reason to be that way.  Then after acting out their feelings, they then think of a rational reason why they did that. since their thinking and feelings are not in touch, they will tell you what they think will bring them the most control.  In essence, what we feel, think or do, have little to no affect on them or their behavior.  This sounds cruel, but if your female dog in heat, got over in rovers pen and they had sex, would you be so uptight?  I unfortunately think of my BPGF that way, except I know she will bite the hand that feeds her.  It helps me understand and forgive her.   

I suggest you get a grip, if you chose to stay with a BP Pet, that will bite the hand that feeds them, then accept the territory, BP's have no CEO in charge of their thinking, We norms can control our thinking and consequently our feelings. "what we think, is what we feel, and what we feel is what we are" A BP, on the other hand, feel and then act out those feelings, in an emotional setting. 
You have given too much away, by letting him have his way with you, he is totally controlling you to include your emotions.  Don't give all of you away, keep some for yourself, be a little bit selfish, you deserve it.   If you cannot control your thinking, then get help, perhaps therapy. Because everything about you, is controled by your thoughts, which is your focus.  So think good or bad, you have that choice to make for you and your emotional health. 

I do hope I have not offended anyone, I am trying to put things in prospective only,  kind regards, david 
Logged
lennic
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 2330


« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2007, 12:00:23 PM »

IBP's are one step back in evolution

I suggest you get a grip, if you chose to stay with a BP Pet,

Flex60.

It is clearly obvious that you have strong decisive feelings associated with the aspects of this disorder and how it affects those that suffer with it. However, I ask you to please keep in mind that your personal experiences are only yours and that many people here have vastly different views. There are members remaiing committed to folks who are recovering and also respected members who are recovering BPDs.

Your above statements though reflective of your experience,,are oppressive at best and do object to our guidelines..

Quote

Excessive Anger, Excessive Blaming: It is recognized that most members have suffered emotional loses and abuse in their relationship with a “borderline”. Recognizing that the “borderline” is mentally ill, and understanding the role of this mental illness in the relationship is an important part of healing and recovery. Coming to terms with the abuse and/or understanding our roles is also part of healing and recovery.

Anger toward the abuser, particularly a oppressive abuser, is part of the healing process. However, indiscriminate anger, and or blaming directed at others other than the abuser is not healthy. Defaming “borderlines” as a group, is unhealthy and may be hurtful to other members, some of which are "borderline" and some of which have "borderline" children or grandchildren. Members shall not exhibit unhealthy anger or blame, or defame "borderlines" in general.


You are obviously an intelligent individual with a reasonable command of language. I think you are quite capable of sharing your perspectives without such obtrusive and degrading generalities.

Please respect the tenor and intent of our guidelines.

Thank you.

Lenny
Logged
JoannaK
DSA Recipient
Administrator (Retired)
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 26380



« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2007, 02:36:32 PM »

Taz, I realized you last updated this a week ago.  I hope that you are doing better.  I do think that, for your relationship with this man to have any chance, you should separate from him for a while.  It would be best for him to own his issues (those that led up to the prostitute) as well as the event itself by himself. 

It doesn't mean you necessarily leave him for good, but it's simple:  "I love you very much; I care for your very much.  I want you to be healthier and happier if that is what you want.  But it would be for the best if you pursue your own therapy and recovery for awhile...  this is a path you must walk alone."  You can specify how much (or how little) contact you want with him during this time and then you will need to hold to it.

In the meantime, concentrate on yourself...  You can live without this man in your life; you can live without any man in your life.  Rebuild your relationships with friends and family, exercise, engage in simply, light activities...  Let the light back into your life.  Then, if he gets effective help, you can see where things will go.


**************************
Flex, I simply must respond to some of your comments.  You've been controversial ever since you came to BPDFamily many months back.  You've been taken to task by various posters over the months. 

You seem to dehumanize the woman you are with, and I believe you've discussed former BPD partners in the same vein.  You are also giving this woman a pass on cheating as if she is a dog in heat. 

The only question I have for you now is this:  If you see your partner (and various partners) as subhuman, as dogs, why do you value yourself so little that you will settle for a partner who is not human, who is dog like?  What does that say about you and your self-image?  Why would you resort to a subhuman partner unless you feel that you are also subhuman on some level?  I'm not trying to be mean; I hope that you will just consider this question yourself as you move on in your life.

About the point raised:  I feel it is insulting to many BPD people to label them as subhuman and to suggest that it is o.k. to allow them to mate as do dogs in heat.  My sense is that there are many BPD people out there, many who are recovering, many who are facing their issues every day, who do not mate like a dog in heat and who are very cognizant of their own humanity.

Logged

sti1
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2007, 03:01:04 PM »

Taz,

When I read your posts I see so many ways of thinking that are familiar to me.  And I know that nothing I can say will make much of a difference.  Every last one of my trusted friends told me to get away from my girlfriend, that she wasn't good to me, and that the relationship wasn't worth it.  And I didn't listen.  I couldn't listen.

I see so much more clearly now what was in play.  I really appreciate former fool's posts, I find them to be stunningly accurate, especially describing how a BP can manipulate and lie to a degree that I couldn't have imagined possible.  I remember the feelings of relief and validation when I got weeping confessions from her about what a selfish monster she had been, and how wrong it was for her to cheat on me.  I remember all the half-confessions--the "sort-of" truths that would come out whenever she was confronted with undeniable facts, just enough to make me think that she had "come clean."  I remember her making me feel like I was different than all those other guys, more important to her, more special.   And things would be better...for a while.  Then the same lies and manipulations would start all over again.

I remember having the same experience as someone else posting on this thread...when I lived the experience with the person, what was happening was emotionally draining.  I felt guilty, responsible, not good enough, unworthy, and a host of other horrible feelings that came from suspicion, distrust, and betrayal.  But for some reason at the time it seemed worh it.  It seemed like I really loved this person and she needed me and I couldn't give up on her because she was going to start treating me like I deserved to be treated all the time, because when she loved me she would say such wonderful things about me.

But with my ex, what she would say in the moment was based on how she felt in the moment, which would change from day to day, or sometimes within the same day or within the same hour.  They weren't based on experience and belief and thoughtful consideration, but just the whims of her chaotic inner self.  Sincerity meant nothing to her.  This was hard for me to see because I didn't know people like that existed, and I tried to deal with her like I would deal with a rational, mentally healthy person.  All I got back was more pain and confusion.

You said that your sense of self is very tied into your loyalty and the idea that you can't give up on someone you care about.  I would suggest that you examine this belief a little further...why do you think this?  Do you believe that you are helping your SO?  Do you think that somehow your own suffering and unhappiness will be rewarded, or it's your duty to suffer for your loved one?  Don't you think you deserve to be treated with love and caring and respect?  Do you think your SO knows how to respect you?  If not, have you seen any hard evidence that he will ever respect you, or is it only your hope?

You are not duty-bound or obligated to love anyone.  God, the universe, your higher power, doesn't want you to stay in a situation which brings out the despair in your soul.  The universe doesn't like despair.  Please, take care of yourself first.  Make your own happiness your priority.  It's not selfish to do that.  It's the opposite...think of artists, slaving away in their studio working on the beautiful things they create.  That is what you need to do, work on what is inside you to create something happy and beautiful...then you will put that beauty into the world.  And that is what is needed.

I know it might sound presumptuous, but I do understand how confusing the situation can be, and overwhelming, and seemingly hopeless.  But leaving and letting go can be the greatest act of love.  And sometimes it only takes one great act of love to change the course of our lives.

I wish you all the best.
Logged
flex60
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2007, 11:37:27 PM »

Lennic, I grasp your point, and it is well taken, I will refrain in the future.
Thank you for pointing out my errors.
kind regards flex 60
Logged
Taz
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2007, 07:46:03 AM »

Thank you all for your posts.  I've just been laying low for a while, licking my wounds.  Sometimes I don't feel I have the right to complain about it anymore because I chose this path.

Was a really rough week, more stinging remarks while the SO sinks further into depression.  And I made what can only seem like a stupid decision - I agreed to travel with him in a couple of months if he would resume seeing his therapist.  A risky bargain i know.  I had a lot of reservations because I had wanted to separate from him for a while.  But the idea of going on a trip with me seemed to give him some hope, something to look forward to.  But he needs to know not to expect that we will magically have our troubles removed because of it.  We will be seeing the therapist on sat as a couple and I want to see what he says.

Sometimes, I don't recognize him anymore, this person I love.  No I don't think it's my duty to suffer for him.  But I find it hard to abandon a person in their hour of need.  What if it were me, feeling lost and scared, and the one person I counted on chose to leave?  Still, I'm losing the strength to fight because he is not treating my heart with care, even as I try to hold aside my own issues with him, so that he can focus on his (and he's not even having much motivation to do that).  I almost manage to keep things normal, then I get into states of agitation where I blurt things out and upset him.  This I can only surmise is the result of bottling up hurt feelings for the 'greater good' and having him let loose new hurtful remarks everytime we argue.  Some sting so badly that I can't tune them out, and they cause me to lose any calmness I feel.  But I'm praying a lot more now, and it seems to help.

JoannaK, I want to follow what you've said.  But he's never been keen on separation as he thinks he doesn't need time away, even though I continually agitate him because I myself am agitated.  I know I need a break from him but the trip is complicating things.  By all accounts, it should initiate some healing so I don't really want to take that away from him.  But from now till then, is it weird if we take some sort of break from each other?  Or should we use the time to go for therapy together and learn how to get along better?  I think this couple session is only meant to be a one-off thing, and it is the result of me raising many issues with the therapist who then felt it was time for us to level with each other.
Logged
Felicity
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 258


« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2007, 04:00:57 PM »

Quote
What if it were me, feeling lost and scared, and the one person I counted on chose to leave?

Taz, it is you, lost and scared.  And he has left you.  He left you when he abused you.  He left you when he makes cutting remarks.  He left you when he cheated.

So, sweetie, you know exactly how that feels because that is what he's been doing to you this entire relationship.  You are being loyal to a guy who is not loyal to you.  You seem to think that removing yourself from an abusive situation is being mean to the abuser.  He is causing all of this trouble, not you.  It's his fault. 
Logged
csandra
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2374


« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2007, 04:10:56 PM »

Taz, 

It's not your fault, it's HIS.  His fear, loneliness is a natural consequence of his actions.  Who know how he really feels but naturally he would think it was to his advantage if he thought YOU were worried, anxious for him.

He has abandoned you and while you know how it feels, you really can't say for sure how he feels.

 I would feel so validated if I though that my uNPDstbxh, of 20 years, was feeling sad, lonely, remorseful.  He sent me the "I'm sad and lonely" email a few weeks after I filed for divorce.  He didn't realize that our daughter had found a diamond ring with love letter to another woman.  Our daughter didn't know that I knew, since my son was the one who told me.  I didn't respond in the way that he had hoped and it made him SO angry.  He didn't know that we knew of the ring/letter for at least a month and he certainly would not have known by my behavior.

 LC/NC is the only way, both physically AND emotionally.  You can always fall apart when he is gone or you are on BPDFamily...but never let him see you sweat.
Logged

JoannaK
DSA Recipient
Administrator (Retired)
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 26380



« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2007, 05:03:15 PM »

Felicity and csandra both put it so well...   Remember, you didn't cause his illness.  You can't control his illness.  And you can't cure him.  By staying with him and "taking it" (or trying to take it), you may be keeping him ill.  You are enabling him to be miserable, mean, and depressed.  Perhaps you have reached a point of the ultimate conundrum of a BPD relationship:  Perhaps you need to leave him to help him. 
Logged

Theireyeswerewatching
O boy my eyes can see
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 329


« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2007, 04:18:39 PM »

Hi Taz,

I wish you luck in your healing.

How to reconcile with unfaithful BP partner?

I don't think such is possible. It really comes down to what you're willing to tolerate.

But, of course, you understand that your partners issues concerning infidelity has nothing to do with you other than your enabling the dangerous misconduct by staying. Also, infidelity during our generation is a matter of life or death. The way infidelity was looked upon by our parents and grandparents cannot be tolerated by a generation such as ours that is plagued with Aids/Hiv. Different times calls for different measures.

So in other words, if you stay with a spouse/partner that threatens your life through sexual behavior you too need professional counseling.

BPD's and Non BPD's alike who cheat (committ infidelity) either come from a family history of practiced infidelity and/or have serious emotional conflicts concerning intimacy and self esteem.

Also, many of us who have not healed from the unresolved issues and wounds of our first family systems do not have a healthy mature positve frame of reference to refer back to before getting into intimate relationships that help us avoid partners that are prone to cheat and abuse regardless of the presence of a mental illness. As you know a person does not need to be mentally ill in order to committ infidelity.

Personal example, I am being stalked by a man that grew up and still participates in a mormon based type of religion that has the talk of Islam on the surface that practices polygamy.

His biological father; the founder of the cult religion; grew up with parents that were dsyfunctional, violent, and unfaithful as well as alcoholism played a role in the family dynamics. His mother is also a polygamous; raised him in a cult despite years of abuse to her self esteem and person; and abuse against her children; At one point she was forced to take his father the founder of the cult to court for child support, yet, to this day encourages the doctrine of a man that denied sexual involvement with her when she was a teenager and the paternity of the children he impregnanted her with.

All the men in his family and immediate extended circle of family friends practice infidelity and domestic violence abuse to some degree against their wives and girlfriends. He, his brother, his biological father, the men who stood in as step fathers, and the men in his immediate cirlce of close family friends all have illegitimate children they fathered outside of their marriages and all practice infidelity on a regular basis, and the divorce rate is very high in his religion and family circle.

The men in his religion are also taught that women are inferior to men and are here on earth to helpmeet and serve men who are all God's to obtain their self glory and Godship's through the womb of women.

Now, given this kind of personal and family history beforehand, it is wise or intelligent to enter a relationship with a person like this and the hold any expectations that he/she will be faithful?

Sometimes we see what we want to see, and hear what we want to hear.


http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_womeninmormonism.html


Best Wishes...  smiley






Logged
TMarie
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 58


« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2007, 07:41:38 PM »

What Gambaru said - "But HE can only betray his vision of his ability to match you.  THAT, I believe, is what is crushing him; the fear that he cannot become your equal." really hit home with me and is something I've experienced with my undxbph. He cannot have himself as a benchmark because he does not have a sense of identity (which he readily admits to). He is becoming increasingly unstable I think in part because he has come to realize how completely awful he is behaving. And because I haven't been so joyful lately (and trying to get him to laugh and cheer him up), he doesn't have anything to mirror back. And so he is angry and depressed. He wants to sleep all day and not have any responsibilities.

My thoughts and prayers are with you Taz. You may need some time to digest all that has been said and shared and time to distance yourself emotionally and physically. Part of me wonders sometimes if when they keep suggesting things like divorce or breaking up if it is because that is what they secretly want but don't have the courage or wherewithal to make the decision themselves. Mine has been saying that more and more frequently as I learn to tolerate less and less of his behaviors - "well, just get a divorce then". I think he does have enough insight into *some* of his issues to see how his behavior affects others around him even if he can't control it but he also has never really been able to make any decisions on his own and part of me wonders if he would rather have me make the decision to separate so he doesn't have to. That way he can play the victim and not take any responsibility for it and can elicit sympathy from others about what "I've done to him and our family".

Hang strong Taz, the more time you allow yourself to reflect on what it is you want the more comfortable you will become in getting there. And you will get there, I have no doubt.

tmarie
Logged
Taz
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2007, 08:19:45 PM »

Quote
part of me wonders if he would rather have me make the decision to separate so he doesn't have to. That way he can play the victim and not take any responsibility for it and can elicit sympathy from others about what "I've done to him and our family".

TMarie, my thoughts exactly.  In my case, I think it's also because he can see what he's doing to me, and feels terrible about it, but is not able/ready to take responsibility for it.  Instead, he just piles more guilt on himself and wallows in self-pity.

This past weekend, he even scratched himself repeatedly in frustration, after I dithered about whether to stay over.  That was just icing on the cake after a truly bad day.  All i could do was grab his hands to stop him and try to comfort him.  I could feel disparate emotions coming from him: 1. a conscious attempt to hurt himself to either elicit a response from me and/or to release his emotional pain & 2. disgust at himself for what he was doing and anger that he was not able to control it. 

At least he didn't cut himself and he's admitted to being afraid to do that.  But I've already told his pyschiatrist.  I feel bad about the way things are going down the drain.  I can see that part of him is very comfortable being lethargic and staying at home, while another part is so angry at himself for being a mess.  At the moment, the lethargic, defeatist part is winning.  He's resigned to thinking his number is up and so he feels no drive to want to make things better for himself.

I may yet get a atemp separation as he will be away for almost 2 weeks next month.  The psychiatrist, whom I'm also seeing separately, has arranged for a joint session with both of us and although I'm looking forward to it, I'm scared too. 

The doc has expresssed concerns about our decision to travel in 2 months.  He doesn't think it is a good idea, but he feels I should stick with my decision, as it will likely introduce more chaos if I change my mind. 
Logged
PDQuick
MODERATOR
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5747


Don't look outside for the answers within.


« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2007, 10:17:06 PM »

Im sorry to be so simple but: Taz see door, Taz close door. Walk away!
Logged

Felicity
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 258


« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2007, 09:55:06 AM »

Quote
This past weekend, he even scratched himself repeatedly in frustration, after I dithered about whether to stay over.

CORRECTION!  He scratched himself repeateadly to manipulate you into staying. 
Logged
gambaru
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 488


« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2007, 11:11:48 AM »

At the moment, the lethargic, defeatist part is winning.  He's resigned to thinking his number is up and so he feels no drive to want to make things better for himself.

Taz, I'm sure this is heartbreaking.  But after reading this - what, exactly, do you think you can do to change his mind?

Let me introduce you to a little thing I like to call the Dirty Bum Fallacy of Influence.  (Look for it on Oprah or Dr. Phil some day soon, I'm even considering trade-marking it!)

OK, we all know that carbon and diamonds are essentially chemically identical, yeah?  It's all carbon, just in shts as opposed to crystalline matrix in terms of structural arrangement.  Sufficient pressure and heat can of course convert or transform the coal to a diamond.

So now, if I shove a lump of coal up my arse and squeeze for about a year, what will I have?  I'll have a dirty bum.  I'll have a stinky lump of coal.  But I sure as h-ll won't have me no diamond.

Why?  Because as a mere mortal human being I lack the ability to create either the requisite heat or pressure to manifest that transformation.  I believe the Divine can do that (although, presumably via a more esoteric venue!) - but first, the lump of coal has to ASK.  Then it has to endure the heat blast and the squeeze long enough for the transformation to be effected.

Now it is reasonable to consider that coal has its purpose and use; one can't burn diamonds for fuel.  Neither can one make a handy cutting implement out of coal.  Each has its purpose and use.  Are any of us humans qualified to decide what "should" be a diamond and what "should" be coal?  Not a call I personally feel qualified to make - and believe me, I tried!

Take it from a gal who's had her share of coal-ectomies, it's no fun.  And incidentally, it's no day at the beach for the lump of coal, either.   :evil:
Logged
JoannaK
DSA Recipient
Administrator (Retired)
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 26380



« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2007, 11:35:57 AM »

Gambaru...  That was a great analogy!

Worthy of its own thread...

Logged

gambaru
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 488


« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2007, 11:43:34 AM »

<grins>
Thanks, Joanna!
Logged
turtle
Distinguished Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 5316



WWW
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2007, 06:13:01 PM »

Yes Gambaru --

The Dirty Bum Fallacy of Influence not only deserves it's own thread, it DOES deserve to be on Dr. Phil or Oprah.

That's wonderful

Turtle
Logged


snowwhite
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 192


« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2007, 10:48:27 PM »

Went through something very similar with my BP ex-husband.  I actually got a very similar story about the suicide and the fact that "nothing mattered any more".  I also think he was upping the stakes because I did not respond to the suicide threat.  He phoned me at work the first time to confess even though he knew I shared an office with two other people and could not exactly handle this at the time. Later, he would call me in the middle of the night from pay phones to confess to having had sex with someone else. 

He continued cheating on wife number 2, including when she was pregnant.   He sought psychiatric help for years while married to her and managed to stop for a few years, but it started up again.

Run to the nearest divorce court.  It does not end.  I was wife number 1.  He was still doing the same thing to wife number 3.  Actually confessed to her about the latest prostitute in front of his oldest daughter shortly before he died.  He also gave his third wife an STD he picked up from one of the prostitutes.  And yes, they were prostitutes; people he worked with went with him to strip clubs.  You cannot fix this.   Good luck.
Logged
Links and Information
Tools
Validation
Ending Cycle of Conflict
Triggering and Wisemind
Values and Boundaries
Becoming more empathetic?
On-Line CBT Program
>> More Tools

Video
What is BPD - Family
What is BPD - Romantic
What is BPD - Child
End the Cycle of Conflict
Validation Skills
Empathy Skills
Parental Alienation
Dialectal Dilemma (audio)


Book Reviews
Endorsed Books
Other Staff Reviews
Member Reviews
Articles - New
Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde
Diagnosis of BPD
Treatment of BPD
Series: My Child
Series: My Significant Other
Series: My Parent/Sibling
Series: My Failing Romance

Articles - Archive
Symptoms of BPD
A Clinical Perspective
Supporting a Loved One
Helping Him/Her Seek Treatment
Treatment of BPD
Leaving a Partner
Depression
Codependency
Sexual Addiction
Healthy Relationships

Content - Messageboard
Top 50 Questions
Top Workshops
About Us
The Mission
Professional Endorsements
2,000 Member Testimonials
Policy and Disclaimers
Blog


Messageboard
Directory
Guidelines
Appeal Moderation
Help-Technical
Manual

Donations
Become a Sponsor
Your Account

Other
Domestic Violence Crisis
Suicidal Ideation

EMERGENCY
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

index.php?topic=56206.msg913187#msg913187
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2010, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!