Don't know how to handle this... please help

[Think About It....]

I am a bit perplexed by your guy.  I guess that I had anticipated a little more direct line of communication in his first email which I had anticipated reading like this:

I understand Son would like to attend the Spring Fling during the time that he is to be with me.  This leads to some decisions that need to be made since the judge decreed that we would split driving time equally.

If you would like Son to attend spring fling, I am willing to drive to YOURTOWN to pick him up to accomodate his activity.  In turn, you will need to pick him up on Sunday in MYTOWN.  As you can see, this makes the driving time equal and fair.

If this is not acceptable to you, then we can plan to meet in H town tomorrow at 5:00 as previously agreed.  I will let son know that I was willing to travel to YOURTOWN but it was not convenient for you.

PLease let me know what you have decided.  If I hear nothing from you by such and such a time, I will drive to H town at 5:00.

I hope that we are able to mutually work out an agreement that will accomodate our son's wishes and comply with the judge's decree.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I would not have asked her if she could do this or that.  Two options, present them, give a deadline and if she doesn't answer, proceed as planned. 

As for the other stuff, quite frankly, I would let it go for this moment.  Focus on this, get this done, don't poke a tiger more than you need to.  I know that her stonewalling is despicable but choose another moment to clean up the scheduling details that arent' pressing at the moment, say next week.

I don't know if this is right and I apologize if it makes things harder for you but that is what I would do.

Sorry to respond so late, we had drama here too, I 'll post later.

Keep me posted.

HG

[happygirl]

I am a bit perplexed by your guy.  I guess that I had anticipated a little more direct line of communication in his first email which I had anticipated reading like this:

I understand Son would like to attend the Spring Fling during the time that he is to be with me.  This leads to some decisions that need to be made since the judge decreed that we would split driving time equally.

If you would like Son to attend spring fling, I am willing to drive to YOURTOWN to pick him up to accomodate his activity.  In turn, you will need to pick him up on Sunday in MYTOWN.  As you can see, this makes the driving time equal and fair.

If this is not acceptable to you, then we can plan to meet in H town tomorrow at 5:00 as previously agreed.  I will let son know that I was willing to travel to YOURTOWN but it was not convenient for you.

PLease let me know what you have decided.  If I hear nothing from you by such and such a time, I will drive to H town at 5:00.

I hope that we are able to mutually work out an agreement that will accomodate our son's wishes and comply with the judge's decree.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I would not have asked her if she could do this or that.  Two options, present them, give a deadline and if she doesn't answer, proceed as planned. 

As for the other stuff, quite frankly, I would let it go for this moment.  Focus on this, get this done, don't poke a tiger more than you need to.  I know that her stonewalling is despicable but choose another moment to clean up the scheduling details that arent' pressing at the moment, say next week.

I don't know if this is right and I apologize if it makes things harder for you but that is what I would do.

Sorry to respond so late, we had drama here too, I 'll post later.

Keep me posted.

HG

[Oy-vey!]

re Cub Scouts...  call his school and ask them who the local cub scout leader is - they typically know who is involved in scouting.  Else - ask him what his troop/pack # is and then call the local BSA office to find out who the leader is.  You do NOT need her to tell you.  Do some legwork so you have it without having to involve her.  Invoke some parallel parenting techniques and you will not have to deal with her.  No frustration either.

Instead of asking her what to do about picking him up - tell her exactly what you plan to do.  "We will pick up SS8 at 5:00 pm at your home.  He will be attending the Spring Fling."  That's it.  If she changes the schedule - it is her problem - not yours.  It then is her responsibility to tell you what is going to happen.  Don't give her any choices.  Just tell her factually what you & DH are going to do for SS8. 

[eureka3]

Thank you guys sooo much.

DH just sent Red an e-mail saying he will be at her house tomorrow at 5 to pick up SS8. Nothing more.

We have several predictions and plans now, thanks to you guys. 

We predict she'll either be calling/e-mailing us tomorrow to make sure that we'll meet her in H-town on Sunday. DH will tell her Friday when he picks up SS8 that we will have SS8 ready at 5 on Sunday at our house. We also predict that she may not give SS8 to DH. Not sure. Anyway, we'll e-mail Red on Saturday to "remind" her that we'll have SS8 ready on Sunday at our house. We predict she'll go to H-town on Sunday instead and will be blowing up the phone with threats for us to meet her in H-town. Then DH will ignore her and will wait about 3 hours. If Red doesn't show up, DH will drive SS8 back to her house later that night. We'll keep receipts, records, docs, etc for court.

Okay, so we need to give her a choice but then tell her what we'll do if she doesn't comply. Got it. We're still learning here. Sorry. But thank you guys sooo much.

Re: the cub scouts. DH has already gotten in touch with the Den Leader and got a great reception from him. DH showed up, unannounced, last year - and Red's hubby, Blackie, was there with SS8. Blackie walked up to DH and said, "This is sorry! What are YOU doing here?" DH told Blackie he was SS8's dad and had every right to be there and told him they wouldn't discuss it there. (backtrack: When Red and Blackie told DH about cub scouts - DH told them he wanted to be involved, they could take turns taking him, etc, they said they'd cross that bridge when they got to it - -  - - then didn't let DH know when it started or anything).

Anyway, DH called SS8 that night (his night to call, and SS8 always talks to me and bioson10) and Red refused and basically told DH he had no right to be there. Said this was SS8 and Blackie's special thing to do. Told DH to do his own special thing with SS8 on the 4 days a month he gets him and to stay out.

A few days later SS8 was on phone with DH and told DH to not come to cub scouts because mommy wouldn't let SS8 come see him anymore. Got that recorded, but our attorney said that we can't use recordings, because it just looks bad to judges.

So DH has been steadily asking for info. because they're always meeting in different places. Den leader won't return calls now.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

HG - - We're learning. We're getting there. Thank you for helping us. We're listening. I'm sorry you've got drama on your side of OZ. Take care.

Alana - Your advice was awesome! Thank you! Again, we're learning - - thanks to you guys!

K's Mom - Thank you, too. We already did that, we just need her to give the info now because den leaders hands are tied.

Kimmiesmom - Bless your heart. I hope you and your fiance get somewhere with your soon-to-be SS.

Blessings All!
eureka3

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[happygirl]

HG - - We're learning. We're getting there. Thank you for helping us. We're listening. I'm sorry you've got drama on your side of OZ. Take care.

Don't worry, its a process.  Remember, they will never do anything the easy way.  Not ever.  So whatever you do, you have to make sure that you live with either result.  It is the only way to save your sanity.

You guys are absolutely right, she will muck up the pick up on Sunday and you will be left in the lurch.  That is why it is critical to make the proposal, give her some choice for wiggle room but stick to the plan.

She will say that she was not informed and that she didn't agree to that.  DH will feel guilted into driving to H town.  It is inevitable.

Please, friend, I am not being critical and hope I don't come across that way.  I am resigned to the process that every non goes through until they realized that being nice, reasonable and logical is stupid.  That is what they have to decide.  Once they figure that out, things get a little better from there but not much.

Good luck, keep us informed.

HG

[spinning]

Friend,
We have walked in your shoes. I absolutely HATE the chaos that ensues just to do something simple! Small, regular activities and big events, always the same crap, right up to the last minute. Always anxiety provoking and overwhelming and so pervasive. Be sure to take time to just breathe. Remember however it plays out, you and DH have done what you can and made sincere efforts to do best by SS. Don't let the anxiety of the chaos interfere (or at least try to let it interfere as little as possible).

We predict she'll either be calling/e-mailing us tomorrow to make sure that we'll meet her in H-town on Sunday. DH will tell her Friday when he picks up SS8 that we will have SS8 ready at 5 on Sunday at our house. We also predict that she may not give SS8 to DH. Not sure. Anyway, we'll e-mail Red on Saturday to "remind" her that we'll have SS8 ready on Sunday at our house. We predict she'll go to H-town on Sunday instead and will be blowing up the phone with threats for us to meet her in H-town. Then DH will ignore her and will wait about 3 hours. If Red doesn't show up, DH will drive SS8 back to her house later that night. We'll keep receipts, records, docs, etc for court.

Remember that email and texts are just like the telephone---a request for response. Not a demand. It's your choice, when to read and when to answer and what to answer. If Red tries to spoil your weekend by harassing you about Sunday, ignore it. You have given her the options and the plan. Done. Our UBPD has always made huge efforts to keep the fight going during "our time" with SD. It keeps UBPD in focus and takes away from time with SD. Or it used to. As HG said, it's a process, all learning along the way. We've learned to do our best to keep it where it belongs (usually), but we are almost ten years into it. You are learning and dealing best you can. Give yourself credit for that.

I am not forgetting that when Sunday comes all the anxiety of how it will occur will still be there. But we can't spend our time worrying about what "might" be. Sometimes we just have to wait for it to happen. I have a card on my kitchen window that says "I have faith in the future I cannot see." I don't really, but it reminds me to try!

Carry a copy of your court order with you, and DH too. If Red refuses to give you SS at pick up, call the police, order in hand. I know we each keep one in our vehicles and I have one in my purse and my DH keeps one at work for this exact scenario. All copies have the sheriff, court, attorney, etc. phone numbers written on them.

I agree with the advice to deal with one thing at a time with Red. I know in our situation, UBPD does not respond well if too much is presented or asked. We found it gives her too much room for ranting and getting off topic. Short and sweet, business-like info or questions have worked best for us. Hopefully it will work for you, too.

Oy's input to skirt Red completely and get info elsewhere for activities is right on. It's really the best way to handle SS's activities and will decrease your stress and contact. Also, can SS bring you info when he gets it? It's worth a shot. In our situation, UBPD discovered this and would remove info from SD's bag so she couldn't give it to us. But like I said, worth a shot.

Good luck. Keep us posted. And breathe!

[laurena82]

Non,
Are you picking him up at the house or at H=town?  I will be at
H=town Sunday at 5PM.

Is it necessary to have reservations for this "spring fling" thing?
If not, consider this:

 forget about trying to force BPD into the pick up at home thing...its a push/pull fight that's going to irritate you all weekend...

If no reservations needed,... cut your losses, and meet her at the half way point both times 5 pm.   Be clear with her that youve agreed to meet her at the half way point 5 pm EVERY time, from here out...no exceptions, and no further conversations needed re: drop off and pick up.   Done deal.

Meanwhile, when you get SS8 at 5 pm, ask if he wants to go to spring fling or not.  If so, then drive into town with him and go.  If not, then continue home.

Have the conversation with SS8 AFTER you pick him up and mom has left, so she has no clue if SS is going to spring fling or not.

 You are going to drive to his/school town regardless, if you do go to spring fling.  This inconveniences BPD to drive to half way point friday, and cuts your conversations with her, both now and in the future.

At this stage of MY life, that's my jaded opinion... 

[happygirl]

At this stage of MY life, that's my jaded opinion...   

And not a bad one at that.

HG

[namaste]

but our attorney said that we can't use recordings, because it just looks bad to judges.

Maybe it's different where you live, but recordings are very compelling. It's one of the only things that helped our first court case. Does your attorney know what you're dealing with? This is kind of a red flag to me if he/she advised you this...

[hestia]

I liked Lauren's idea, too?
I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but why are you guys putting yourselves through the agony of arranging the pick-up and drop-off each time? It's only allowing her to manipulate the heck out of you.

I can't remember exactly what your CO says, but I interpret sharing transportation as you each pick up from the other's house.

Tell this woman you'll be there pick up son Friday night, CO in hand. Tell her to pick him up Sunday every week.
Make alternate arrangements in case she doesn't show up.

If need be, lay that out in the CO.

[eureka3]

I'm so sorry that I haven't been on the last few days. Things have been crazy, but I wanted to thank all of you for your immense help.

As predicted, my DH did go pick up SS8 and took him to the Spring Fling. Red & Blackie weren't there, but we think Red may have had to work. So that was a relief. On Saturday DH e-mailed Red and told her SS8 would be ready for her to pick up at our house on Sunday. Red immediately e-mailed back that she TOLD us that SHE would be at H-Town on Sunday and that DH made a CHOICE to come pick up SS8 at her house. DH calmly e-mailed her, reminded her of judges orders, reminded her that SHE was the one that said SS8 wanted to go to Spring Fling. We got no reply back. And, needless to say, we were on pins and needles all Sunday afternoon.

Lo & Behold  - - Red & Blackie came pulling up into our driveway 10 minutes early, without hesitation. I'm sure they've already driven to the house before to "scope it out". 

We are a little shocked that she showed up - and it makes us wonder if maybe we are off base with our limited knowledge of BPD and NPD (we believe Red is NPD) lay diagnosis...

Anyhow, we found out Monday morning that Red is counter-suing DH for *surprise! surprise!* increase in Child Support, wants to make DH 100% responsible for SS8 a vehicle, maintenance and insurance when he turns 16, and 100% of school, extra-curricular activities, clothes, and 100% responsible for college and all fees associated with college, including travel!

Oh, and her attorney is doing discovery. Our attorney is pissed! LOL That's a good thing.

Long story short, our attorney said that when we go to court for her contempt charge when she's found in contempt, the judge will throw out her counter-suit. It's all about the money for her. DH wants to go to court and tell the judge, fine, he'll pay for SS8's car, college, pay Red CS, just hand SS8 over to us where he will have a fighting chance at a normal life.

Anyway, thank you all for your strong and solid advice. We're learning so much through this board and from you wonderful people who are sharing in our lives chaos. Blessings to you all.
eureka3

[spinning]

What judge will demand someone pay 100% of college? I have never heard of that.

It's all about the money for her. DH wants to go to court and tell the judge, fine, he'll pay for SS8's car, college, pay Red CS, just hand SS8 over to us where he will have a fighting chance at a normal life.

We would agree to pay everything as well if we would get SD full time, too. When we wish we would win the lottery, the very first thing we always say we would do is buy off UBPD so we can just have a normal life!

[csandra]

I was blown away that they would ask for a car/maintenance/insurance for a 16yo.  What a sense of entitlement and what does it teach the kids ?

 Neither one of my kids drive.  We live in a city with good public transportation and few of their friends drive.  We have relatives that live in the suburbs and yes, it makes everything easier when they can finally drive.   

 I would give anything for uNPDstbxh to pay 1/3 of state school tuition.  I've been told that I can ask, but it is unlikely that he would agree to it.  However...he does have to provide some kind of CS until age 21, as long as they attend at least 1/2 time and maintain "C" average.  Maybe that explains why he seems so nonchalant about son's school performance.  He still has to pay if son moves out...but at that point, we would each have to contribute(which I have always planned on).   

I put myself through 4 years of college, graduated when I was 20.  I didn't qualify for grants because my dad made too much money.  He was angry when I asked that he no longer claim me as dependent.  They provided nothing for my education.  I later put myself through graduate school but did get some "free" money.  I worked every weekend, holiday, school break and my professors complained loudly.  Still, had I not done that , I would have never been able to attend. 

Don't want my kids to ever go through that.  They can work a bit, but not to put a roof over their head or food on the table.  Of course, my family always discouraged me from getting room mates so I always lived alone.

[Mr. M]

DH wants to go to court and tell the judge, fine, he'll pay for SS8's car, college, pay Red CS, just hand SS8 over to us where he will have a fighting chance at a normal life.

Are you sure that you want to legally commit this early to such outrageous demands (at least where a vehicle is concerned)?

Keep in mind, with a BPD, there is little chance at a  normal life and agreeing to any demands now will only mean her setting the bar higher down the road.  There is no agreement with which a BPD is satisfied, even their own (if you've agreed with it).

Just food for thought.

[eureka3]

Mr. M - - I totally agree with you. I only said that my DH was wanting to go to court and tell the judge this to show that he cares only about his son and wants him. Not that he would agree to pay for all of that without having full custody. And quite honestly, we would pay 100% for everything AND pay Red CS if we could just get SS8 out of her house and give him some peace and normalcy.

csandra - Wow! You've done really great with your life even though the entire burden was upon you. That's amazing! Congratulations for being so strong!

We don't want SS8 to do what you've done, but we definitely want him to have a sense of accountability and responsibility which he is not learning over at Reds. Red has bought him every single game system and games known to man. The kid gets $20 - $25 from the tooth fairy for each tooth he loses. He's given a $15 a week allowance for doing some chores - but he can't tell us what he does. He's 8 years old!

What judge will demand someone pay 100% of college? I have never heard of that.

We would agree to pay everything as well if we would get SD full time, too. When we wish we would win the lottery, the very first thing we always say we would do is buy off UBPD so we can just have a normal life!

Spinning - We don't expect the judge to even give into her demands at all. They are unreasonable. We hope it can be used to show how materialistic and entitled she feels she is.

My DH and I have had the lottery winning and buying off the exw discussion before too. LOL

Thank you guys!
eureka3