CRISIS... NEED ADVICE NOW

[Think About It....]

I am with my opposite personality sister and her two teenage daughters that call me their favorite aunt.  I have no responsibilities until tomorrow night when I must report my work cases closed to my lead.  Herc if off work tomorrow.  He knows where I am and why.  This is the second night I will be gone.  Today was good for me.  I have not seen my sister since July. 

I do not have my cell phone with me, just the lap top.  Herc will get off work and deal with me not being home yet tonight.  That is the consequences of his actions, not mine.  He says one thing then does another.  He had everything lined up to force his visitation rights, but didn't.  He told me that Easter has never been important to him.  To me it was just another chance to show the children how much we love and miss them.  Easter has nothing to do with it.  It could have been any weekend.  It just happenned to be the weekend before his initiated contempt of court charges against his ex on Monday.  He set it all up to force visitation and folded.  The rug was pulled out from under me, yeah.  He did it for his kids, yeah.  She won, yeah.  That is not the point.  Does he want his kids or not?  What is he willing do to for that goal?  Or what is he going to give up?  Tell me one thing then do another?  What am I suppose to do?  I understand about the kids calling.  She has them call all the time.  When they were going to have company one weekend and the kids told him, he fought.  Lost, but he fought.  When his daughter called because they were supposedly sick, he fought.  He lost, but he fought.  Each and every weekend since the court order in January, he has fought to see his kids.  The sheriff escorted us, then last weekend, he got them without incident.  Now he has quit the fight, just as we have won.  We have everything we need, and he caved.  Why?  Court is Monday!  Does he want to fight for his kids or not?  I need to know. 

He and I have made it through lots of things because of her.  We grow stronger and closer each time we conquer each mountain.  I will go home when I am ready and not before. 

I have recited and displayed the serenity prayer since 2003.  I used to have the card in my purse.  It is posted in my kitchen.

I called his ex today.  I gently let her know that I am not causing her problems.  Herc married me to provide a good home so he could fight her for his rights as the father.  I told her how I was widowed at 25 and my pentecostal mother in law helped me raise my daughter.  She has never tried to get to know me.  She commented that she was "not trying to take [Herc] from me".  Did you hear what she said?  She is married to the man she ran off with six years ago. The conversation ended when she said they were late for a hair appointment and hung up. 

Yeah, I should not have called.  It can come back on me.  I am always ready to deal with any consequences for my actions.

Tomorrow I will deal with another day.  But not until tomorrow.  Herc has his demons, and I have mine.  I am calmer.  I am more rational.  I am still not sympathetic for his loss this weekend.  It was his choice.  I cannot have an Easter without kids.  Mine is in Wisconsin.   Maybe God is telling me to find a church home.  Maybe God is telling me something else? 

With the activity here of neices and my sister, I have not had time to meditate and listen.
Tomorrow is another day, another chance to pay attention and learn.

[ruralstressed]

I am with my opposite personality sister and her two teenage daughters that call me their favorite aunt.  I have no responsibilities until tomorrow night when I must report my work cases closed to my lead.  Herc if off work tomorrow.  He knows where I am and why.  This is the second night I will be gone.  Today was good for me.  I have not seen my sister since July. 

I do not have my cell phone with me, just the lap top.  Herc will get off work and deal with me not being home yet tonight.  That is the consequences of his actions, not mine.  He says one thing then does another.  He had everything lined up to force his visitation rights, but didn't.  He told me that Easter has never been important to him.  To me it was just another chance to show the children how much we love and miss them.  Easter has nothing to do with it.  It could have been any weekend.  It just happenned to be the weekend before his initiated contempt of court charges against his ex on Monday.  He set it all up to force visitation and folded.  The rug was pulled out from under me, yeah.  He did it for his kids, yeah.  She won, yeah.  That is not the point.  Does he want his kids or not?  What is he willing do to for that goal?  Or what is he going to give up?  Tell me one thing then do another?  What am I suppose to do?  I understand about the kids calling.  She has them call all the time.  When they were going to have company one weekend and the kids told him, he fought.  Lost, but he fought.  When his daughter called because they were supposedly sick, he fought.  He lost, but he fought.  Each and every weekend since the court order in January, he has fought to see his kids.  The sheriff escorted us, then last weekend, he got them without incident.  Now he has quit the fight, just as we have won.  We have everything we need, and he caved.  Why?  Court is Monday!  Does he want to fight for his kids or not?  I need to know. 

He and I have made it through lots of things because of her.  We grow stronger and closer each time we conquer each mountain.  I will go home when I am ready and not before. 

I have recited and displayed the serenity prayer since 2003.  I used to have the card in my purse.  It is posted in my kitchen.

I called his ex today.  I gently let her know that I am not causing her problems.  Herc married me to provide a good home so he could fight her for his rights as the father.  I told her how I was widowed at 25 and my pentecostal mother in law helped me raise my daughter.  She has never tried to get to know me.  She commented that she was "not trying to take [Herc] from me".  Did you hear what she said?  She is married to the man she ran off with six years ago. The conversation ended when she said they were late for a hair appointment and hung up. 

Yeah, I should not have called.  It can come back on me.  I am always ready to deal with any consequences for my actions.

Tomorrow I will deal with another day.  But not until tomorrow.  Herc has his demons, and I have mine.  I am calmer.  I am more rational.  I am still not sympathetic for his loss this weekend.  It was his choice.  I cannot have an Easter without kids.  Mine is in Wisconsin.   Maybe God is telling me to find a church home.  Maybe God is telling me something else? 

With the activity here of neices and my sister, I have not had time to meditate and listen.
Tomorrow is another day, another chance to pay attention and learn.

[happygirl]

Rural, you seem a little calmer and that is a good thing.

Just a couple of points that you may want to consider.

It feels to me like herc is being punished because he did not do as you asked.  He didn't follow through, he didn't have the fight that you were seeking, he didn't push the issue the way that you wanted.

I have been there rural, wanting Walt to say this, do that and furious when an opportunity slipped through his fingers after all the work that I had been doing to help him.  I know how maddening it is.

One of the lessons that has been mine to learn is that he has instincts too.  He has beliefs and fears.  Not all of his non traits are bad.  some of them are great, his ability to care, his parenting, his love for me.  they are all wonderful traits.  After all those years with a BPD, it is my desire to remind him of those great qualities because for so many years he was degraded.

I have spent years strategizing, thinking, posting, learning, documenting, and going to court all in an effort to gain some rights for my husband.  We talk about it, read about it, plot about it and sometimes we dream about it.  It is that important to us.

But we also found, at times, that it consumed us.  I found my anger at fever pitch when he was not doing the things that I thought he should do. He was frustrated at my micromanagement of his situation.  Sadly, I was often right in my predictions and analysis but over time I saw that there was a cost to this behavior.

I wrapped it all up pretty in the package of just wanting to make him happy, get his son, help destroy her.  All it was destroying was us.  For about six months, I was so angry all the time but I could'nt see it.

Rural, EF asked you to state why you left.  I can't see any reason.  I know you state you are thinking over your marriage but all I am seeing here is anger that he didn't get the sheriff to get the kids.  Anger that you won't have a holiday with kids.

Each and every weekend since the court order in January, he has fought to see his kids

My goodness, that is a lot of energy.  Have you considered that precisely because the court date is Monday that he will let them decide there?  That he just can't do it one more weekend?

You profess to love this man, that he is a great person, a good father.  Your job, when you get married is not to fight to get his kids back. Your job is as a mate to your spouse, a helpmate.  It is his job and right to fight this how he wants.  It is your job to give him guidance, support and ultimately understanding even in light of how it affects you.

It would be one thing if he were not tackling anything, he is, maybe due to your insistence but the man is making an attempt and an effort.  He is going to court, he has worked to keep contact, he has utilized law enforcement.

You have mentioned that his physical health is not good.  Jeez, I can see why as this is an incredible amount of stress for him and for you.

I am still not sympathetic for his loss this weekend.  It was his choice.  I cannot have an Easter without kids.

I find this to be a tragic line of thinking.  Quite frankly, it was not his choice.  His BPD ex wife has participated in a system of parental alienation and is winning.  His only choice has been how he wants to survive this and as such should be respected.  It doesn't have to be liked but it does need to be respected.

HOnestly, rural, how much of this has to do with your expectation of a holiday?  You seem to place a high price on holidays, times with kids, creating fun times, etc.  Is there a possibility that your disappointment is extreme because of your holiday expectations?  I certainly understand being peeved at the loss of time, the expense and the upheaval but is the response logical for the circumstances.

Rural, this is tough talk, I know.  I know the frustration and need to have safety and security.  It is a tough life.  I can only give you my perspective.  There is nothing that would all ow me to put anything between Walt and I, our relationship is too important and I want it to be solid for the time when we do get his son.  The way I figure it, the best way to win his son back is to make the most solid marriage that I can and to support him as best I can.

You have come here to a message board asking for validatation and advice.  I affirm your right to be frustrated and disappointed.  It is our lot as a secondary non.  The above is my best advice for handling the situation.

I hope I have not caused offense but I cannot sit quietly by having walked your path already.

HG

[Her Mama]

I called his ex today.  I gently let her know that I am not causing her problems.  Herc married me to provide a good home so he could fight her for his rights as the father.  I told her how I was widowed at 25 and my pentecostal mother in law helped me raise my daughter.  She has never tried to get to know me.  She commented that she was "not trying to take [Herc] from me".  Did you hear what she said?  She is married to the man she ran off with six years ago. The conversation ended when she said they were late for a hair appointment and hung up. 

I am calmer.  I am more rational.  I am still not sympathetic for his loss this weekend.  It was his choice. 

Why would you do this?  What are you trying to do here?  You reveal to her why you say you married him.  Are you trying to "punish" this man further because he hasn't come running after you?  I don't see calm and rational.  I see motives of punishment by revenge.  How exactly stable is this "loving and wonderful" home that you are providing for Herc and his children so he can have more access to his children if you punish and betray your husband like this?  Is this going to be your plan of action for whenever he fails to meet your seemingly endless expectations of him?  Doesn't sound a bit like love to me when you say "I am still not sympathetic for his loss this weekend".  Doesn't sound at all like a person I would consider as having empathy, compassion, or the proclivity for tenderheartedness. 

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[spinning]

rural,
You have received a lot of valuable input here. You have to decide what is best for you and for your marriage. My wish for you is that your time away will help you clarify what it is you want exactly. Can you explain that to us? From your posts, I am still not sure why you left Herc except that he didn't do what you wanted him to regarding his children and the family you are a part of. Though I completely understand that his choices affect you as well, they are still his choices to make. (And I certainly do not understand what you expected to gain from calling his ex!)

We can only control ourselves, not anyone else. We can change what we present for someone else to respond to, that's all. Seems this ball is in your court.

I have to agree with happygirl:

HOnestly, rural, how much of this has to do with your expectation of a holiday?  You seem to place a high price on holidays, times with kids, creating fun times, etc.  Is there a possibility that your disappointment is extreme because of your holiday expectations?  I certainly understand being peeved at the loss of time, the expense and the upheaval but is the response logical for the circumstances

Why can't you have the holiday without the kids? I understand expectations, have learned the hard way that much of what I was dealing with at times was about MY expectations of what *should* be. And the disappointment and anger that comes when they are not met. Should is a rotten word.

If I have learned anything along this relationship, it is that it is important that we celebrate things. Not when we celebrate them, just that we do celebrate, as a family, whenever we are together. We hardly ever have holidays and birthdays when they are on the calendar. That doesn't stop our celebrations, though. Our extended families have also learned this. Last weekend we celebrated Easter and Passover, both were not yet here on the calendar, because that was when SD could and would be with us to see everyone and join the family celebrations.

This is because we are a family with a child of divorce, not just because there is a mentally ill woman in the picture (which of course adds immensely to the changes). My SD will ALWAYS be missing someone, she will always not be at something. As long as we embrace the time we do have with my SD, no matter how little, it is a celebration and SD knows she is avaluable part of it and the family.

Now he has quit the fight, just as we have won.  We have everything we need, and he caved.  Why?  Court is Monday!  Does he want to fight for his kids or not?  I need to know. 

Have you asked Herc this? He is the only one who can answer these questions. As you surely already are aware, communication is the cornerstone of any relationship.

IMHO, you need to decide why you married Herc, and what you want from your marriage. Also what you are willing to give to him and to it. You said a couple times that you entered this marriage to help him with his fight for his children. Hopefully that is not your only focus. Maybe you could try to shift your focus back to your relationship and away from actions.

I hope you can find some peace this weekend, Easter or not. It sounds to me like clarification of what you want, and then a plan to find it, is key.

[ruralstressed]

Ok, I have not re-read all the things I said yesterday, but I have read since my post last night. 
Herc and I have talked in great length on the phone last night and this morning. 
He is off work today.  Guess what, she is letting him have the kids until Saturday afternoon.
Yeah, and I am not there. 

I am not sure what all I said and did yesterday.  It is all so mixed up inside my head.
I don't know really why I called his exwife, honestly.  I just want so to be friends.  She has never even spoken to me but twice in the two years he and I have been together.  I am a lot like her, over protective mother, strong christian (not as devout as her), crafty, earthy, etc.  I felt the need to call.  I conveyed on this board my interpretation of how the conversation went.  It was actually a very calm and rather nice exchange of words.  Maybe it is my lack of sleep, or all the medications the doctor has me on, I don't know.  My sister did ask me if I was drunk when I awoke her at 4am wanting to stay with her.  I got up yesterday before she took my neice to school at 8am.  Now here I am again.  At least I got to sleep by midnight, I think. 

Yeah, I have always done the holidays big.  My own daughter said I was a "too much" type.  I spoil.  I love to spoil.  As a Girl Scout leader we had lots of fun, whatever the girls wanted to do.  As a wife, I indulge my husband with whatever makes him smile.  As a cashier, I greet each customer, hoping to leave them with a smile.  I do the Census, and I am very good at it.  It is who I am. 

There are more issues going on with Herc than I let on. 

I was disappointed in the man I married.  He says one thing, then does another.  It scares me to realize he knows and plans what it takes but then he could not follow through.  He has to learn to make her accountable for her actions or she will just keep doing the same things.  I know she will continue to find new ways to cause chaos, but I hear and see how he is not setting the boundaries after I hear him rant, rave, plot, plan, set up and vent all his wants.  If he cannot stand up to her, it will never end.  Can I handle that?  If he doesn't get his kids, he will crawl in bed, lethargic, tv remote in one hand, laptop computer at the other.  Can I handle that?  The answer is no to both, so what am I suppose to do?  I have told him repeatedly how difficult it is most times to get him to smile.  This has been ongoing since we met.  Staying in bed, making love, laying around watching tv, that is all good, but not as a lifestyle.  That is depression.  He goes to a counselor since the holiday.  Was every week, but now it is every two weeks.  I go every week. 

Each and every time we get the kids we do something special.  I had blow bubbles, kites, board games, videos, dvds, and more last time.  The time before I had all their Valentines gifts arranged nicely on their pillows but they didn't come.  I didn't lose it then.  This was different.  It was not the big event.  It was his failure to follow through, his choice.

He said, let the court do it.  So, we are gonna run and dish out money over and over for lawyer, legal fees, each and every time?  I understand he is tired of it all.  He sees the strain it is having on me.  But I have been there, each and every time, making the most of whatever he gets.  Well, like you said, it is his place, not mine.  I could not do it this time.  I could not make the most of whatever he got. 

He does not want to go to church with me.  He does not want to work in the yard with me.  His motorcylce is giving him stress.  It needs work, but he just moans and groans about it.  He knows how to take and engine apart and put it back together.  He is a mechanic. 

He comes home, sits down on the bed, gets the tv remote and turns on the computer.  Do you know how long he can sit and play spider solitaire?  We went to Louisville, Ky the third week of March for an overnight mini vacation.  The midsouth truck show was there.  He also took his motorcycle radio back to the manufacturer personally to have it repaired.  At the hotel, he watched tv, wanted to sleep until time for the NCAA TN game, then snapped at me because I didn't have the channel on the game when I woke him up for it.  I got up and laid down on the couch.  He brought me a pillow and blanket when he got ready to go to sleep.  The next day, we woke up, went to the truck show until closing, then I drove us home because he had to be at work the next morning.

He brought me roses this week for no reason.  Guess because I don't ask anything from him.  I love him just the way he is.  I endure his crazy life because I love him.  I rub his aching muscles.  I make love to him with a passion.  I enjoy the ball games, the truck shows, riding motorcycles, all the things he does too.  I love and miss his kids, too. 

[Mr. M]

Wow, what a shame.  This situation has taken a decidedly sadder turn.   

[Oy-vey!]

RS,

I hope you are getting help for yourself that is constructive.  You remind me of my mother who was a victim of her own actions - she did more than anyone would have or should have done for others and would get angry when they didn't appreciate it enough.  This is passive aggressive behavior.  It is not healthy.

You also shared with us that you have some special kind of personality and that is why you do the things you do.  Well, I will venture to say that alcholics or people addicted to drugs have a special kind of personality - but there are many of them that get help and work on changing their behaviors.

Is there a reason you cannot work on yourself so that you are a healthier and ultimately a happier person?  You expect a lot from others.  You give a lot more than you get in return.  And you are not a happy person.

I hope you are able to find some peace at some point of your life.

[ruralstressed]

Ok, this is why I don't like the way you "experience" long time board members treat new members that are not a "wise". 

OyVey, I have been in counseling since I was widowed in 1985.  I am not passive aggressive.  I am Post Tramatic Stress Disorder.  Symptom of being raised by a UBPD Father.  I am to giving, guilt ridden, tender, emotional, but never have I ever been upset because someone didn't appreciate what all I do!  I have difficulty handling stress, the fight or flight syndrome!  Counselors have told me that I function with amazing clarity and intelligence best when I am angry.  I do not become angry often.  But I do get sad alot.  Life is suppose to be fair for all/others.  My life has been so hard that I have learned to look for the smile in every moment and milk it for all that it is worth. 

I know your type.  I was raised in the suburbs of Chicago.  My parents were members of the Country Club.  Do not project your judgements on others!  Do you want me to quote scripture, I can...

[Oy-vey!]

RS,

I too grew up in the country club.  I too have been in therapy since the early 80s.  And I have experienced more traumatic grief than you will ever know about.  I'm no more special than you, nor you than me.  Where in the suburbs of Chicago did you grow up? I'm quite familiar with them all from the north side and up.

You have actually made my point - by your statement that you are sad a lot.  I hope you are able to find happiness in your life.

Good luck.

[Gen]

Wow, rural, I am new here too, and I think you were unjustifiably harsh to Oy-vey.  One of the possibilities of posting your issues and problems on an internet message board is that you are going to hear things you maybe don't want to hear.  It seems to me that people here have taken the time to try to help you with the very stressful issues going on in your life right now.  Many of these responses have come under the category of "constructive criticism", but IMHO, I don't think anyone was out of line except you in your harsh response. 

I wish you the best in your struggles, but if all you want is people to tell you what you want to hear, it seems to me you are going to be disappointed here, as well as in life.  Good luck.

[aames]

Let's step back before this escalates, shall we?

Rural,

Now the tone and examples Oy used may have been more harsh than you would like - and I do see how that would upset and trigger you.   

Oy you may want to back off this thread for the time being; Rural is feeling a harshness right now that won't allow her to hear your words.

Rural - I'm going to ask that if you feel under attack or upset by another poster's words that you take a step back - don't engage that poster or escalate the situation with counter-attacks.    You always have the option to contact any moderator on the board and report the situation. 

[MoGlo]

Ruralstressed ~

Apparently you either misunderstood or neglected to read Aames' post to you above, particularly this part:

Rural - I'm going to ask that if you feel under attack or upset by another poster's words that you take a step back - don't engage that poster or escalate the situation with counter-attacks.    You always have the option to contact any moderator on the board and report the situation. 

Again, do not make counterattacks when you do not agree with someone.  We do not condone personal attacks and name calling on this message board and this is your last warning.  Please, take a big step back and stop attacking those who are trying to provide input as you requested.

[aames]

Ruralstressed:

Your second reply to Oy has been removed from this thread as it was flaming and inappropriate.   It was in direct defiance of what I specifically asked you NOT to do in the post above.

From the Guidelines:

Divisive or Abusive Exchanges: All members should feel safe in their expressions; we are all here to heal from abuse. Please keep in mind that the membership is comprised of diverse experiences and backgrounds; this is a great strength of our community. Debate is healthy discourse when conducted in a respectful, and tolerant manner. Members shall not engage in divisive or abusive exchanges or be judgemental of other members. If a member has divisive or abusive behavior directed toward them, they shall not engage it, but rather try to defuse the situation, or ignore the behavior, or contact a moderator for assistance. Members shall not respond to an abusive exchange in kind. All members should feel safe in there expressions; we are all here to heal from abuse.

RS: you agreed to abide by the guidelines when your membership was reinstated.  Your reinstatement is, at this point, less than 48 hours old.  Please review the guidelines in their entirety before posting again.

Aames

[ruralstressed]

Yes I felt attacked.  She used the words unhealthy, addicted, passive aggressive.  She claimed to know my type.

I did not realize a moderator had posted when the message came up when I just posted again.

I am not looking for what I want to hear, quite the contrary, I want to hear opposite.  I need the opposing views to fully analyze the pros and cons.  Judging is another thing.  Don't tell me who I am, what I am doing out of context of the entire picture of the issues influencing my actions you do not know about.  That is judging.  I still have not told all the things pressing upon my life.  You do not know me, there for you cannot judge me.  I do not know you, I only weigh your comments.  I will feel the need to explain myself when misjudged.  



I am a stranger.  OyVey was aggressive.  She was judgemental and accusing.  I told my sister what OyVey wrote.  She laughed so hard.  She told me not to respond and I should not have.  I should just let everyone get to know me as my personality unfolds with time.  I replied in like fashion as she had replied to me, to get her to feel how she made me feel.  I judged her.  Suddenly she wants to know which suburb I am from?  She wants to know me better?  Her initial reply did not suggest she wanted to know me.

Because this is text, I feel the need to define myself, now, like posting my profile on yahoo.  My personals ad years ago had a personality test.  All the personals seem to give you personality questions.  I have even been on Eharmony prior to meeting Herc.  Herc and I took personality tests as part of our premarriage counseling.  

I am a feeler, passionate giver.  Each and every test comes back like that.  I do not expect anything in return.  I do want respect.  I don't always get it, and I usually return disrespect with a reproach.  Then I avoid or remove myself from the disrespectful atmosphere.  I have been known to return comment when a strange teenager in the mall acts disrespectful.  I just consider it being responsible for your actions.  Show respect, get respect.  Show disrepect, get disrespect instead I chose to chastize.

It is the law of nature.  It is how atoms work.  It is the old saying...
For every action, there is a reaction.
Wasn't that Einstien?

Please forgive me for my harsh words at OyVey.  I have read this past month her replies to various threads and know her popularity.  I am the outsider.  I am the stranger.  

If you ban me, I am ready.  I probably won't be online for a while anyway.  You allowed the harsh provoking words.  I do not accept her being allowed to speak to me like that. 

I have three properties that need mowing.  I wish to visit my daughter in Milwaukee.  I have a work deadline next weekend.  Court Monday.  Possible child custody if the judge makes good on his words to jail his ubpx for interference.  And I think I am gonna go down to the lake and just sit by the water for a while.  

Time to quit listening to everyone else and listen to God.  He is in my heart and I need to listen without all this noise.  I have been insulted.  I know how to walk away.  I usually give "the look" of I beg your pardon first. 

Each and every opposing comment has been appreciated.  I had Herc sign on last night and read them all as well.  My sister could care less, she is a college graduate nurse, president at one time of her professional society, psyc ward at her local hospital.  She just laughed as I said about the passive aggressive comment. 

Let me just end this thread here, now, with... I am truly sorry for stepping across the line.

[aames]

At the thread author's request - we'll go ahead and lock this one up.