not feeling connected

[Think About It...]

Last week my wife was feeling intimate. In fact, she stated that she wanted sex and I should be happy that she wanted it with me and not somebody else.  That put me in a conundrum: say no and get her mad (since she had been complaining about my lack of sex drive) or go ahead and hope for the best.  I went ahead.  The sex was good but I felt bad in the morning, like there was no attachment.  Of course her "be happy it was with me" line did not help. 

At marriage counseling I actually got angry and told her how I felt.  She went thru the roof and later that night said that I disgusted her.  Apparently the sex had meant something to her after all. This from the same woman, who on several occasions when I had mentioned how good it was, said that it might have meant something to me, but was just sex to her; who on at least two occasions theatened to get it elsewhere if I did not put out (not her exact words, but the meaning was the same), and that night had said I should be happy she was getting it from me.  I was not very sympathetic to her case to say the least.

What bugs me is her reaction; she has run down my efforts at intimacy and made me feel like crap, but when the shoe is on the other foot she rages about it.  I end up feeling bad for what I said, and try to make up for it.  Anything that she said in the past does not matter; for her anything more than 48 hours old is ancient history and I should look at her "now".

Hell hath no fury...

[macman]

Last week my wife was feeling intimate. In fact, she stated that she wanted sex and I should be happy that she wanted it with me and not somebody else.  That put me in a conundrum: say no and get her mad (since she had been complaining about my lack of sex drive) or go ahead and hope for the best.  I went ahead.  The sex was good but I felt bad in the morning, like there was no attachment.  Of course her "be happy it was with me" line did not help. 

At marriage counseling I actually got angry and told her how I felt.  She went thru the roof and later that night said that I disgusted her.  Apparently the sex had meant something to her after all. This from the same woman, who on several occasions when I had mentioned how good it was, said that it might have meant something to me, but was just sex to her; who on at least two occasions theatened to get it elsewhere if I did not put out (not her exact words, but the meaning was the same), and that night had said I should be happy she was getting it from me.  I was not very sympathetic to her case to say the least.

What bugs me is her reaction; she has run down my efforts at intimacy and made me feel like crap, but when the shoe is on the other foot she rages about it.  I end up feeling bad for what I said, and try to make up for it.  Anything that she said in the past does not matter; for her anything more than 48 hours old is ancient history and I should look at her "now".

Hell hath no fury...

[JoannaK]

macman, I know you've been in counseling and things take time, but what (if anything) has improved over the past months?  Are you going forwards, backwards, or still just going in circles?  And do you still think she has BPD... or "almost" BPD?

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board. All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[macman]

Its still going in circles.  On the one hand I feel like I am not making the effort that I could.  On the other, I feel like no effort is enough anyway. 

As part of her rage at me over the week end, she stated that she did not want me to go to her college graduation.  I was disappointed, because I had wanted to attend.  She said she did not want to risk me ruining her big day, but decided to let me attend.  Graduation corresponds with my drill week end.  I emailed her today as to what day graduation was being held as we are also way behind on getting things done there.  As graduation was on Sunday afternoon, I reasoned that I could attend drill on Saturday, and then attend graduation on Sunday.  I even asked her where she wanted to eat dinner after graduation. She replied back that I obviously did not care about her graduation and I was not making her the priority and she would not let me ruin her big day.  I often feel like she backs me into a corner on issues. 

I replied back reminding her of the many things I do to put family as the priority over work and Guard, especially in the last few years.  I feel like I am spitting in the wind, however. 

I think she has BPD.  If not, I am not sure what she has, unless I am the messed up one (or more messed up than just being co-dependant).

[JoannaK]

I'm not sure why you want to go to her graduation as she is such a nasty piece of work.  I guess my question is if you are making any progress in mt.  Considering the exchange about graduation, it doesn't sound like it.  How does she think you will ruin her big day?

[macman]

I admit, I do have a way of somehow ruining things for her.  It is not intentional, but I seem to say the wrong things.  I wanted to attend because she has worked so hard on it.  I guess I am still trying to prove myself to her.

Her follow up email to me today was better.  She did not, of course, say that I should attend Guard drill, but thanked me for my efforts.  Self-centered as usual...

[ian]

I admit, I do have a way of somehow ruining things for her.  It is not intentional, but I seem to say the wrong things. 

That is pretty much how I felt before I found out about BPD. I think I do say somewhat stupid things sometimes (though innocently), but it never warranted the kinds of responses I recieved. In the end I realized that the REAL problem was her being intolerant, easily insulted and unstable.

I was also accused of messing things up or being a problem till I was walking on eggshells, she wouldn't invite me to dinner with her freinds and family, wouldn't let me meet her freinds, etc. on the basis that I was untrustworthy or unpredictable. I really don't believe that I was or that I really did anything wrong, it was her projections and her problem.

What I realize is that when someone says something we usually expect that the other person means what we would have meant if we had said the same thing. So many, many harmless things I said were interpreted as insults and manipulation, when I took many of her insults and manipulative words to be harmless or mistaken. When someone takes the things you say as intentionally harmful it tells you alot about how THEY communicate, and how they think.

[LAPDR]

macman;

That short term memory is all you're suspose to have, heaven forbid if you bring up the past and remind them of past deeds. They are to be forgotten about and start each day new, till... they want to paint you black and the whole history of your relationship comes flooding out of their mouth.

Your confused and hurting while trying to figure things out, she's hurting too, only she doesn't feel it and would never admit to it.

I got trapped many times in the situation that you did (I believe) where she wanted sex after a long dry spell of rejecting me and especially after her having an affair with somebody else. At times I would request her to get a AIDS test before we started to get on with that part of them marriage and she would blow her stack and stay hostile towards me for weeks. She got a test a few times but with her short term memory she would fall off her wagon again and again. What I found out was that her impulsiveness she would blow all protection and believe the guy, no matter what he said. To me, my health and sanity was more important to me then it was to her.

LA

[JoannaK]

How do you ruin things for her? Do you call her names?  Do you scream obscenties at her?  Do you show up drunk or stoned?  Or do you simply say things that she misinterprets?  I mean, are you really doing nasty things that any normal person would consider bad?  Or are you so stuck in this relationship that she claims you do hurtful things and holds them against you?

[GawgaGirl]

Macman ~ I read where you say: 

I admit, I do have a way of somehow ruining things for her.  It is not intentional, but I seem to say the wrong things.

Do you really say the 'wrong' things or are they just preceived as 'wrong' by her? 
I ask, because I also get what you are saying.  I get angry responses for things I say at times that are not mean, ugly, 'wrong', whatEVER... and are definately NOT intentionally said to piss off my BP.  Yet, it happens.  I agree, they are not looking at life in the same way.  They can just 'take things' out of context to fit their agenda at the time.  Or they just pull from some other emotion/place. 
I feel like JoannaK - Are you really doing things that any NORMAL person would consider 'bad'?

[macman]

I feel I am being pretty normal.  Sometimes I finally blow my stack and say stuff, especially calling her lazy.  Do I think she is lazy?  Yes.  She has not worked outside the home in years, yet I seem to most of the work around the house.  She does some stuff, but is mostly stuff that she wants to do.  Still, telling her that is a guaranteed argument.

She is very sensitive to things.  She has also said things to me that we very insensitive, and later tried to cover it up with "I didn't mean that", or "I guess I just have a communication problem" to excuse it.  Today at lunch we discussed a punishment issue with the youngest.  While I agreed with her end result, I said that I wished she had given the youngest a warning on it first.  She started to get very defensive, but fortunately I think she understood that I was supporting her, just stating it might have been handled a little differently at first.

[crystal]

Hey macman,

has anything changed in the last year--for real? with her?  If not, what does that mean?

Hope your kids are doing well.

Crystal

[macman]

No, its pretty much still ground hog day. 

I can't seem to make up my mind why she stays; is it because she really cares about me, or only because I meet certain security needs? Probably a little of both. 

The last week has been fairly good, largely because we have been having sex.  She bounces back and forth between needing sex to feel close / validated, and needing emotional attachment.  Unfortunately is seems to be one sided in either regard.  I know she has a big hole inside that she needs to have filled. Lately, it has been the need for sexual intimacy.  There are times when I want to feel close, but I can never quite seem to trust what it is that is motivating her.

The kids are OK.  The oldest is doing very well, just signed a home loan with her husband and had her college graduation.  The youngest got her orange belt in tai kwon do.  She did give her mother a letter, asking that her mom spend more time with her.  At first her mom was defensive about it, but she actually did start spending more time with her.  What the youngest was looking for was some unstructured time.  Her mom spends structured time, such as soccer and movies, but not just goof off time.  Unfortunately when she does, its because she wants to and quickly gets offended if D decides she wants to do something else.   

[crystal]

Mac,


Glad to hear the girls are doing well. Tae Kwon Do is great!

I can't seem to make up my mind why she stays; is it because she really cares about me, or only because I meet certain security needs?

Ok. but why do you stay?

Your friend,
Crystal

[macman]

That my dear is the $100,000 question.

I still care about her and want her to be sucessful.
I still care about her and want her to be happy.
I can't afford a divorce.
I can't seem to quit.
I hang on to whatever good moments come up.

[crystal]

Mac,

you are hear cuz you want feedback... so...

Istill care about her and want her to be sucessful.
 

And can you make her successful, or is that up to her?

I still care about her and want her to be happy.

 
And you are making her happy?  Or you think you can? Or is that up to her?

I can't afford a divorce.

hmmmm.  What price freedom, friend?

I can't seem to quit.

The answer to why not is your million dollar answer

Just wanting the best for you. I have known you for almost exactly a year (been taking stock of myself recently) A year can fly by. And things can take time. But if, after a year, there is no progress, then how long will it take?  Think about it, Mac. Life is precious and short. 

Yours,
Crystal

 PS

That my dear is the $100,000 question

Thanks!  Ill take credit over in the gift shop. I am fresh out of BPD -be -gone

[macman]

Every day that I get ready to call it quits, something tells me not to.  Pretty annoying actually.  Even the youngest has been frustrated enough to tell us to get a divorce because she is tired of hearing us fight. 

The wife goes thru a major spasm and my instinct to try to resolve (and maybe some brainwashing on her part) leads me to try to solve it. 

I can't provide her with security or success, as much as she tries to blame me for it. 

[gambaru]

Crys, that was brilliant.

Macman, you'll be done when you're done.  Honest.  There'll come a day when you'll just realize it's pointless to open your mouth or exert the energy it takes to make the non-hostile, loving-but-detached, totally neutral, factual explanation of why, yes indeedy, something she did or said is not healthy and you were very hurt by it because you know you are going to hear a variation on one of the following themes:

- I never said that
- You're just trying to pick a fight
- Why must you keep throwing the past in my face?
- I only did it because you were so mean to me/ looked at me the wrong way/ didn't read my mind, so it's not my fault
- It's not my problem
- You're too sensitive
- "*&@#$, you *&^#  $(!" followed by the lobbing of something that makes a tinkly or crunchy sound when it breaks
- <insert your BPD's usual justification / behaviour here>

And you'll realize it's just pointless.  You'll realize they "understand" perfectly well.  You'll realize they simply don't give a darn how it hurts you, how it makes you cry, how it's making you sick, how it's killing you, how you're dying inside and sick to death of groveling for their love, affection, attention, appreciation, validation, respect, decency, acknowledgement of your personhood...so you won't even try.  You'll be too tired.  And you'll realize something:  there is not one single good reason on G-d's green earth why you should have to live like this.  Not one.  Because what you want is not available on this particular showroom floor.  And the delivery truck jacknifed three or four counties away.

Then, and only then, will you really be well and truly done.

IMHO.

[macman]

Yup, the last thing that flew went thump when it bounced off the bedroom wall, leaving a really nice fist sized hole.  Actually, that was an improvement over the time she smacked me in the head with the alarm clock.  8)

[gambaru]

And yet, you still didn't hear the alarm bells...

((macman))
Hugs, I'm tweaking ya!

[crystal]

Mac,

WHAT tells you not to quit? And WHO? cuz I am betting it is not MAC (even if the voice is coming from inside)

>>mac (that's me,  nudging you)

Crystal

[Silas Pseudonym]

Hi Mac,

The sex as a physical release but nothing for the partner is an on going theme for me too.

I left.

Well really I kicked him out & I was afraid to lose everything.  Now I understand the words, Once you lose everything, you have nothing to fear.  Works for me.

Gam  I love the list.  You left one out though...

All of the above.

Silas

[macman]

I actually got a compliment this week end.  One of her friends and her three girls were up for the week end.  She is going thru a divorce, (husband is a real loser) so we invited them up to get away from things for awhile.  We grilled and roasted marshmellows and I watched the kids on and off so wife and her friend could get some girl time.  After they left, my wife said "you can be a lousy husband but you are great dad".  A COMPLIMENT!  Actually, she meant it, both parts.  She did at least admit that she could be a lousy wife sometimes. She even bought me the "Sasquatch, Legend Meets Science" book I had been looking for.  (OK, she had it on back order and it finally came in.)

The two of us can work together on some things, which is one reason why I keep trying to stay.  Another reason is more selfish; I was working around the house, and really do not want to lose what I have worked for.  Materialistic yes, but still something to consider.

I also see the pain that the other woman is going thru, and I don't want to inflict that on my wife (co-dependant again, I know).  We have also had so many people pulling for us, people that gave up on marriages but see us still trying.  Our family is not in that crowd though.  Hers and mine think I should split. I suppose it should tell me something when her family and old school friends ask why I am still putting up with it.

[eastmeetswest]

Hi mac,

I went to your first and last post.  First, do you really think the sex meant anything to her after all the times she said exactly the opposite?  Or, is it possible she said it just to screw with you.  BPDs are contrarians.  Can you really believe anything?  Second, you smell like sh$t but you don't look like it.  Is that a compliment?  mac I want to give you a hug till you get it.  There was no meanigful sex and that was not a compliment.  You deserve REAL compliments. 

[crystal]

I suppose it should tell me something when her family and old school friends ask why I am still putting up with it.

yes, my friend, it should tell you alot.

Crystal

[macman]

Sometimes the sex means something to her.  Other times it does not.  That is OK if all you are doing is just "ripping off a piece".  With her though it is always more than that.  She is wanting some real deep connection, either emotional or simply being desirable.  OK, I suppose that's normal too.  I guess I feel like a trained monkey, always trying to please. 

I have never seen anybody try to keep score the way she does.  Everything at home is a list of what she does and what I do.  I guess maybe I started it by complaining about the lack of what she does.  I get so tired of her immediately stating after dinner "I cooked - you clean".  I certainly don't mind sharing the work, if I felt like it was being reciprocated.  Its like she tells herself " if I make a  big stink about something I do, and make it sound really BIG, maybe he won't ask me to do anything else".  it does not make for feeling connected, especially after her telling me things like "I can't deal with your issues anymore", or " I don't have time for your petty BS" to things that I mention.  On the other hand, I have to be there 100% for any issues that she has. 

[eastmeetswest]

It is supposed to be 100% from both which should then equal 200%.  But what happens in this type of relationship, is we end up giving closer to the 200% over time and what they give approaches 0%.

[lmartens]

 :-X

Mac;

I am a newbie to this site.  However I am not a newbie to this situation.  I have been living it for four years.  Sounds like my partner and your wife could be twins.

I learn a lot by reading all of the posts.  I also feel there is a lot of negativity here, maybe it is just venting.  I do understand that most of us ARE in negative situations, but I am an eternal optimist.

There are a few things I have done for myself.  They have helped immensly in a short few weeks.  BOUNDARIES and DEALBREAKERS. I forced myself to push the envelope.  I figured she was always pushing it - why couldn't it.

There is no intimacy (sex) between us until she is in better mental health and I feel safe with her mental health, should she seek it from others - DEALBREAKER, all done, no discussion and your sh*t will be in the front yard.

Never scream at me, or physically touch me in anger - EVER AGAIN - DEALBREAKER and your sht will be in the front yard.

She knows that I MEAN WHAT I HAVE SAID AND THAT I WILL FOLLOW THROUGH.

In my current opinion BPD's are cowards inside.  They bully to fill their fear of abandonment.  Once they are faced with strong boundaries - sometimes they back down and seek help.  I told my BPD on the final straw day that she has "smashed" my spirit and that I will no longer allow it.  I will be working on my own mental health - (I've gotten depressed for dealing with this crap for tooooo long) and she better get busy with herself.  Life is precious and I am not willing to waist anymoreof it.

She is in heavy therapy (3x's weekly) with many drug combinations.  She has actually seen the errors of her ways and is now depressed, sleepy and quiet actually.  She hasn't learned how to get out of the "poor me" feelings yet but I can see her working. 

She knows I am strong and the boundaries are still in place and that they always will be.  Yes, there are children involved here as well.  I urge you to think about them - as they don't have the choice to do anything about your marriage - they are powerless.

There are other options besides ending your marriage, but you have to be healthy/strong enough to do them. 

You didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it.
Get off her back, get out of her way and get on with your own health.

When you know what you need to know...

You will do what you need to do.

Best of luck and my thoughts are with you.