Identification of cause of facial injuries

[Think About It....]

My daughter (3 years old at the time) experienced a facial injury while in custody of her mother who seems to be mentally ill with a personality disorder, possibly BPD or something similar (NPD or APD) given her range of behaviors.  She was diagnosed with OCD in 1999 and PTSD in 2005.  BPD has been suspected since 2006, but no formal diagnosis yet so far as I know.

My daughter refuses to reveal the cause of the injury to anybody, including myself, her grandparents, doctors, and mental health professionals including her psychiatrist.  She tried to lie about it, claiming it was paint, that it wasn't a bruise, and so forth.  She has become very secretive about her life, particularly about injuries.  Her preschool staff say that this behavior is highly unusual for a child of her age and suspect she is being abused while in the custody of her mother.

The injury was examined by medical personnel and the cause could not be identified, but the injury was believed to be unusual as the well-experienced health care provider had never seen an injury like it previously.

Her mother later claimed to another doctor who had not seen this injury that it was the result of "lip smacking" which apparently means sucking on lips. This explanation seems to be a lie based upon the nature of the injury and other information, raising the question of what is being covered up.

My daughter's preschool staff, grandparents, and I have never seen her do "lip smacking" or anything that sounds like this. Her lower lip cannot reach the area above her upper lip where the externally visible bruises were located. Nor does this explanation seem to explain the damage inside of her lower mouth that was noted in the medical exam.

I have a photograph of the injury and have cropped it to protect identity.  But I need somebody to look at it who is familiar with identification of child abuse and facial injuries.   I don't know for sure it is a physical abuse injury, but the amount of lying involved in covering up the cause makes it really suspicious.

Can anybody help point out such a resource to me?

I have placed the photograph of the facial injury here.   http://stoptheviolations.spaces.live.com/

Any help would be appreciated.

[protectmychildren]

My daughter (3 years old at the time) experienced a facial injury while in custody of her mother who seems to be mentally ill with a personality disorder, possibly BPD or something similar (NPD or APD) given her range of behaviors.  She was diagnosed with OCD in 1999 and PTSD in 2005.  BPD has been suspected since 2006, but no formal diagnosis yet so far as I know.

My daughter refuses to reveal the cause of the injury to anybody, including myself, her grandparents, doctors, and mental health professionals including her psychiatrist.  She tried to lie about it, claiming it was paint, that it wasn't a bruise, and so forth.  She has become very secretive about her life, particularly about injuries.  Her preschool staff say that this behavior is highly unusual for a child of her age and suspect she is being abused while in the custody of her mother.

The injury was examined by medical personnel and the cause could not be identified, but the injury was believed to be unusual as the well-experienced health care provider had never seen an injury like it previously.

Her mother later claimed to another doctor who had not seen this injury that it was the result of "lip smacking" which apparently means sucking on lips. This explanation seems to be a lie based upon the nature of the injury and other information, raising the question of what is being covered up.

My daughter's preschool staff, grandparents, and I have never seen her do "lip smacking" or anything that sounds like this. Her lower lip cannot reach the area above her upper lip where the externally visible bruises were located. Nor does this explanation seem to explain the damage inside of her lower mouth that was noted in the medical exam.

I have a photograph of the injury and have cropped it to protect identity.  But I need somebody to look at it who is familiar with identification of child abuse and facial injuries.   I don't know for sure it is a physical abuse injury, but the amount of lying involved in covering up the cause makes it really suspicious.

Can anybody help point out such a resource to me?

I have placed the photograph of the facial injury here.   http://stoptheviolations.spaces.live.com/

Any help would be appreciated.

[Her Mama]

I tried to look but there was a server error.  I don't really know that we can be much help but I will try again later. 

Did the doctor say anything about blunt force trauma?  Were there x-rays taken? (though at that age most of the bones in the nose are still cartilage and unless there is significant trauma to the nose, or teeth (where the teeth have been broken at the root and may turn grey), nothing out of the ordinary would show up on an x-ray)  Has CPS been notified?  A child that age would not try to lie about something like this without being coached (ie, mommy will go to jail if you tell anyone...; they will take you away from mommy if you tell... or some sort of threat of further abuse).  They may not remember exactly what happened but they wouldn't overtly try to cover up anything.

I'm sorry your daughter is going through this.  If the injury is as extensive as you say, and she isn't telling how it happened, I doubt it was much of an accident. 

[protectmychildren]

I tried to look but there was a server error.  I don't really know that we can be much help but I will try again later. 

Did the doctor say anything about blunt force trauma?  Were there x-rays taken? (though at that age most of the bones in the nose are still cartilage and unless there is significant trauma to the nose, or teeth (where the teeth have been broken at the root and may turn grey), nothing out of the ordinary would show up on an x-ray)  Has CPS been notified?  A child that age would not try to lie about something like this without being coached (ie, mommy will go to jail if you tell anyone...; they will take you away from mommy if you tell... or some sort of threat of further abuse).  They may not remember exactly what happened but they wouldn't overtly try to cover up anything.

I'm sorry your daughter is going through this.  If the injury is as extensive as you say, and she isn't telling how it happened, I doubt it was much of an accident. 

Whatever happened was fortunately not enough to break any bones or do any long-term damage.  No x-rays were taken.  I could have even believed it might have been an accident if the lies and refusal to explain it hadn't started.  What has me particularly freaked out now is that the secretiveness and lying is spreading to the point that my 4 year old won't talk about much of anything about her life outside of the time she spends with me.  Even questions like "what did you eat for lunch?" or "did you see such-and-such a friend at school today?" get answered with "I don't know" or something similar on days which I get custody of her at 5pm and I ask about this stuff around dinner time.  On the days I have her when I ask such questions, she will answer.  Clearly she is being trained to cover up things by her mother.

I notified CPS about the facial injury, medical care neglect, and so forth.  At first I was afraid I was going to be falsely accused of causing the facial injury.  CPS did nothing about it for approaching 3 months.  Because I told the doctor that I had notified CPS, they didn't notify them.  Other mandatory reporters reported it, but not until maybe a month later.  The latest CPS caseworker went to stbexBPD's home, looked at my daughter, and called me and said there were no bruises.  This was about 3 months after she was injured.  How stupid can the caseworker be?  The bruises were pretty much gone in just a week, two weeks tops.  Hardly any bruise would last 3 months, even a very serious one.  The caseworker refuses to listen to the digital recordings of stbexBPD lying about a conjunctivitis infection for which she failed to pass along any treatment information or medicine and I only found out about it from my 4 year old daughter when she said her little sister had pink eye and was getting eye drops for it.

It's not just child abuse and neglect that I'm fighting against.  StbexBPD has got a big defamation campaign running against my family and me, and routinely manipulates the police and CPS to try to get me into trouble.  My #1 goal is to protect my daughters, but honestly my life is so screwed up at this point that sometimes I wonder if I will be alive in a few months.  I was out of work on stress/depression disability for 3 months, lost a promotion, lost my 6 month bonus, just got demoted at work because I can't do my job effectively any more because of the extreme stress that has left me with basically constant chest pains and frequent exhaustion and dizziness.   My bosses and coworkers are reasonably supportive, but work still has to get done so I understand and don't really disagree with the steps taken.  But my career is being destroyed.  And none of this should be happening in the first place if it were not for stbexBPD trying to destroy me.  It is so bad that two of my coworkers who know her believe she is trying to kill me, my daughter's psychiatrist says she is obsessed with ruining my life, and my therapist thinks she is trying to drive me crazy or provoke a desperate reaction that can then be used against me.  For somebody who has been diagnosed with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and probable BPD to be obsessed with ruining your life, that is pretty darn frightening.

Ultimately, it is looking more and more like the only way to save my daughters and myself is to get 100% custody legally and get the court to sanction us basically disappearing off the face of the earth, maybe even changing our identities.  Otherwise it looks like stbexBPD is just going to keep attacking me over and over again, and eventually she's going to get good enough at it or some police officer will be sloppier than usual and I'll end up in jail with my life destroyed and she'll get the girls and destroy them through abuse.  She is not a dumb person -- she has two master's degrees, for instance.  And she is so good at lying and attacking that my psychiatrist agrees with me that even the judge in our case is potentially in danger from her if he makes a decision she doesn't like.  It would be easy for her to frame him for hit-and-run and ruin his career with a false scandal as even such an accusation can destroy somebody's career. 

The family law system in San Diego seems so poorly suited to deal with an extreme case like this.   StbexBPD ends up going to programs to help divorcing parents act in a civil fashion, and at first it looked like her parental alienation campaign ground to a halt.  But what really appears to have happened now, months later, is that she has learned how to hide her problems better but doesn't stop the destructive behaviors.  I think these programs may actually help a lot of people, but in this case I think they are causing even more damage.  So instead of my daughter telling me things like "mommy says you are going to die", now she just says nothing because she has been programmed to stay quiet and generally does except for the occasional comment about how she sometimes runs upstairs and hides in her bedroom at mommy's house because people are saying bad things about her daddy and she doesn't like to hear it.

These divorcing parent education programs for a BPD victim are kind of like a doctor keeping a drug-addict HIV victim alive through lots of medical treatment that also hides a lot of the nasty symptoms (Kaposi's sarcoma. for one), and then the HIV victim can more easily go share used needles and have unprotected sex and consequently infects lots more people with a deadly illness.  Saving somebody's life is a good goal, but if by doing so you end up essentially killing more people was it really such a good thing to do in the first place?  Likewise, trying to get divorcing parents to act in a more civil fashion is a good thing in many cases, but if is just enables a mentally ill person to hide their problems better from public view and thereby makes it more possible for them to attack and inflict more damage on their victims, was the program really such a good thing?

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[Mr. M]

I don't buy the "smacking lips" source of the mark.  The following is pure speculation so please treat is as such.  Guesses:

- It has the tell-tales signs of a "hickey" - not from "lip smacking" but as if someone or something has sucked really hard on her mouth.

- It also looks like someone may have struck her across the mouth with an open hand.  In the close-up, they certainly could be similar to finger marks as if someone struck her with a hand in a sideways position.

- Forced to drink something she didn't want to?  (Dunno, but perhaps resisting as something was pressed against her mouth?)

[screamingfire]

Have you thought of getting the little girl in to see a play therapist? That way it's not so intimidating for the child. Usually the office or room where the child is helped is stocked with great toys, so the child plays and they are able to open up more. Would your ex go for that?
I'm surprised the teachers haven't contacted CPS. DO they know of the injury? This behavior is a HUGE red flag to so many diff types of abuse. Have they reported it? Would they if you asked? I think you need to ask. Or maybe CPS needs to keep hearing it? I have noticed in our area CPS needs to be told about things a few times before they get their butts in gear. I
You sound exhausted! Poor guy! You've nailed the PAS on the head and the thing (she ain't no mother) obviously has some wiring loose. Come here and post, get some support for you.

[protectmychildren]

Have you thought of getting the little girl in to see a play therapist? That way it's not so intimidating for the child. Usually the office or room where the child is helped is stocked with great toys, so the child plays and they are able to open up more. Would your ex go for that?
I'm surprised the teachers haven't contacted CPS. DO they know of the injury? This behavior is a HUGE red flag to so many diff types of abuse. Have they reported it? Would they if you asked? I think you need to ask. Or maybe CPS needs to keep hearing it? I have noticed in our area CPS needs to be told about things a few times before they get their butts in gear. I
You sound exhausted! Poor guy! You've nailed the PAS on the head and the thing (she ain't no mother) obviously has some wiring loose. Come here and post, get some support for you.

My daughter has been to see a child psychiatrist who also very fortunately has about 20 years of experience treating BPD patients.  I did not know this about her BPD treatment experience at first.  I showed her some of the case documentation in the first few sessions and explained one of my top worries was parental alienation and what it might do to the kids, especially the older daughter who was definitely being subjected to a parental alienation campaign based upon her comments.  The younger one is lucky right now because at 1.5 her lack of sophisticated verbal skills protects her from her mother.  Both of the girls are very smart.  The psychiatrist has been practicing for something like 40 years in the mental health field, and she says my 4 year old is one of the smartest children she has ever encountered.  She has done play therapy with her to identify what is going on with the parental alienation, and says that she is resisting the alienation attempts so far and believes she will continue to be able to resist them.  But she knows that her mother wants her to stay quiet about certain things, and very quickly identifies when she is being questioned or probed for information on the topics about which her mother wants her to stay silent and either shuts down or starts to lie and/or redirect the discussion.

Play therapy to determine the cause of the facial injury was attempted, but that didn't work.  My daughter detects the purpose and shuts down too fast.  She must have really been worked on to put up a block like this at her age.

Her preschool has contacted CPS repeatedly.  They are fed up with them.  They say CPS comes to investigate the injuries, makes her upset, and then does nothing.  They are aware of the facial injury, but would not have been if I did not show them the photographs as the mother kept her out of school until the bruise faded.  San Diego County CPS (actually Child Welfare Services) is presently completely useless to protect my daughters.  The caseworker currently assigned is apparently too stupid (stupid I believe is accurate due to her comment about the facial injury and no bruises when she finally checked into it months later when obviously anything short of a massive bruise would have healed completely) and easily manipulated by stbexBPD. 

The preschool director knows that stbexBPD is a liar, and said she caught her lying about other things, not just the abuse incidents that I discussed with them.  Also, the December 20 attempt by stbexBPD to frame my father for battery and child endangerment at the preschool helped get them to understand something is wrong with stbexBPD and that was kind of the turning point from them treating me like a slimebag to understanding that maybe some of the misinformation stbexBPD had been feeding them was not accurate.  One of the preschool staff is the witness who saved my father from going to jail, but her point of view was obstructed by stbexBPD's body enough that she didn't see enough of the details to understand everything that happened.  I saw everything from about 10 feet away with no obstructions, and it all happened so fast with stbexBPD going after my father from behind, then falling on the floor (she let herself fall!), then looking around for witnesses she could use against my father.  It was freakish.  I don't know how much of it was a cognitive dissociation episode and how much of it was conscious manipulation.  StbexBPD was in violation of 100 yard keep away TROs by just being there, but the police won't do a thing about it.  It seems like SDPD and CWS are both sexist and won't act much against women or think that since there is a divorce they want to stay out of it.  I think the anti-male sexism is more accurate, however, given how both organizations have been manipulated by stbexBPD to attack me, only relenting when they are provided enough information to start to make them doubt stbexBPD.  Basically I live in fear of false arrest every day.  Maybe that is part of why I have so many problems with sleep, chest pains, dizziness, etc. that are destroying my life.

There was another incident of facial injury about February 12, the day that stbexBPD interfered with treatment for conjunctivitis that I had started two days earlier after my mother and I agreed that my older daughter had it and I talked with the doctor on call, described the symptoms, and was told to start the treatment with Vigamox for one week.  My daughter explained this more recent facial injury happened at the "car dealership" (not typical words for her, think she was trained to say this as she says "car fixing place" usually) and that it had to do with her climbing and falling on a chair.  Her mother showed up at the preschool with a note she showed the preschool director from somebody claiming that the facial injury happened at a car dealership, but the preschool director did not save a copy of the note and I have never seen it even though I asked.  Maybe it needs to be subpoenaed, but destruction of evidence is already a problem on this case and each subpoena takes a long time to execute.  The preschool director says there was also a note from a doctor claiming that there was no conjunctivitis infection, and because of the medical reports I got I know this is likely true.  Because I caught the infection early and started treatment so soon, it looks like 2 days was enough to make her asymptomatic.  And this was before I knew about stbexBPD interfering with medical treatment and before I understand that what had happened to my 15 month old on January 15 or 16 was not a rash, it was scalding on her bottom.  So I was too stupid and did not take the pictures I should have taken. 

Now I know to take pictures of everything abnormal, but because of that stbexBPD has now tried to target me with accusations of child pornography and the idiot CWS caseworker started to go after me until I dumped probably hundreds of pages of documentation on their fax servers and e-mail and then they backed off and told me not to e-mail or fax them.  I haven't heard from them since, not even an answer to my question a month ago about the facial injury photograph.  San Diego County CWS is completely worthless at this point.  There was one caseworker who was there who really saved my kids and me earlier, however, so I can't say they are all bad.  I think they just are overwhelmed with work, too many of them have anti-male biases, and they don't understand what they are dealing with from stbexBPD because she is very smart, devious, and an incredible liar who can lie at the drop of a hat and have you convinced she is telling the truth unless you have evidence to the contrary.

My older daughter almost certainly had conjunctivitis despite stbexBPD's manipulations of the doctor to get him to say she didn't have it.  I state this not just because of what I saw for symptoms, but because two more people who have frequent close contact with my older daughter got conjunctivitis in about the next 10 days.  One was a close friend of hers at preschool.  The other was my younger daughter who on February 16 was diagnosed with conjunctivitis, and one week of Vigamox was prescribed.  When I got her back via custody exchange on February 20, there was no communication about this or any medicine from stbexBPD mother.  But my older daughter (almost 4 at the time) told me that her little sister had pink eye and mommy had been giving her eye drops.  I called their mother and left e-mail, but got no reply at all until about noon the next day.  Here is what the voicemail said with ID information edited to protect identities.

The following is the transcript of the voicemail that <stbexBPD> left for me on February 21 at 12:01pm regarding
<younger daughter's> eye infection after I had called and e-mailed her multiple times since the night before as <older daughter> told
me that <younger daughter> had an eye infection and <stbexBPD> was giving her eye drops for it yet <stbexBPD> didn't inform me of this
or pass along the medicine.

February 21, 2007 at 12:01pm

Hi, <my name>, this is <stbexBPD>.

Thank your for your concern about your - our children.

And, um, <younger daughter> did have pus in her eye. It wasn't pink, but it -- there was pus in her eye when
we got her in and she has been treated with Vigamox.
Um, I have some left -- it's, um, the doctor said that -- ah -- said that I could treat her for the days that I had her and that would be enough, and he said if it clears up that should be sufficient.
Um -- you are welcome to continue treatment if you like.
I don't know why -- uh -- <older daughter> said her eyes were pink since they weren't.
Um, maybe you planted that in her mind.

Um, the other thing is, I would like to know where the children are when they are in your care --
where you live chiefly, not when you're out with them, but, um, I think ___(unclear)__ important
that I know where our children are living when they are with you which is, um, two days at a time
and up to ___(unclear)___ and um ___(unclear)___ will be up to four days a week this week and
I don't even know where they live and where they are at night. I think it's important that you
provide me with your address. I have asked -- more than, um, several times, and in different
forms, and, uh, please give me that information. I would very much appreciate it.
Thank you.
Bye bye.

Everything in glowing red is a lie that can be documented with medical reports and e-mail.  But if you didn't have that evidence, you would not know she was lying except for a slight hint that she seems to use a lot of "ums" in her conversation that may indicate she is nervous.

The doctor's report I obtained for February 16 in the upper right has a clear statement that my younger daughter's eyes were red and in the lower left it clearly states that Vigamox treatment for 1 week is prescribed.  When I asked both the doctor's office manager on February 21 and another doctor in the practice about this, both of them said the medicine should have been used as prescribed and stopping it like stbexBPD did isn't responsible.  I later asked the original doctor who prescribed the medicine the same question and he said he intended the medicine to be administered for 1 week and that is why he prescribed it for 1 week and it should have been used for 1 week.

But apparently it isn't considered serious neglect because the infection was not life-threatening.  If she had done this with antibiotics for pneumonia, then it would be considered serious neglect because that could have killed my younger daughter.  This report plus the conversations are why I concluded stbexBPD is lying about the
medical treatment.  The doctors won't report the medical care neglect, even though they pointed out that if it the same thing had been done with pneumonia, strep, staph, or several other more serious conditions treated with antibiotics that it could have killed one of the children.

Given all of this, I've asked the doctors to fax me a copy of any prescriptions or treatments given or recommended for both kids. Otherwise it seems like I will only hear about them if my older daughter mentions something because she at 3 years old was already more responsible than her mother.  I still have problems with the staff at this office being hostile with me.  StbexBPD has defamed me to them, and except for the person who saw the injuries to my older daughter's face in December (she doesn't believe the lip smacking explanation either based upon her facial expressions when I showed her this), they all act like I am doing them a huge injustice by trying to get them to help my daughters.  They seem to think this is a normal divorce and I am just a nasty divorcing father.  The truth is that it is far from normal and I am not nasty, I have been very restrained and careful to try to minimize undue harm to anybody but am getting very frustrated with how stbexBPD is able to turn almost anybody against me who does not have the time to examine a lot of documentation and/or is a trained mental health care provider who knows something about BPD.  She is that good of a liar and manipulator.  This is part of why she is so dangerous.

[protectmychildren]

(This is a continuation -- apparently I ran over the 15,000 character limit.)

As to the lies about requesting my address in stbexBPD's voicemail, I searched all my e-mail and voicemails (I save all voicemails from her now) and she has never asked for my address prior to February 16 and I have e-mail that I sent on February 16, 26, and 28 in which I did send it to her. So I already knew that was a lie right away.

The garbage about my address is just another attempt by stbexBPD to set me up for a claim I am violating court orders.  She requested that information on Febuary 16 for the first time, and because of the court orders on this case not considering how severely mentally ill and dangerous she is, I was required to provide the information to her.  Despite having provided the information to her a total of 3 times in e-mail by the end of February, she kept asking for it and claiming I never provided it to her.  As I mentioned, I have the e-mails to prove that I did provide it.  My lawyer doesn't understand BPD well enough to understand the threat stbexBPD presents, and neither does the judge.  This smart but unaware judge knows barely anything about the case because family law court in San Diego is total dysfunctional for cases like this.  He is a sitting duck that stbexBPD could very well smear all over the floor if she negative splits against him due to a ruling adverse to her.  Because of this situation, I provided this address information again in a court settlement room in April prior to a hearing after telling my lawyer that there is no legitimate reason for stbexBPD to have this information, she already has at least 6 phone numbers to reach my parents and me regarding any concerns about the children, and her having the address will be used against my family and me, probably to try to get us arrested on some future charge.  Sure enough, on June 6 stbexBPD was back at it with SDPD manipulating one of their officers to leave me a voicemail threatening to arrest me.  I was afraid to go home until my father talked with the officer and got her to read the court orders from the computer, not just what stbexBPD handed her, and understand that she had been duped and I had not violated any temporary restraining orders.

StbexBPD lies to her lawyer, also, and her lawyer is also a liar and has perjured himself to the judge on the case about many things.  He is also financially victimizing stbexBPD by pushing litigation over stupid and pointless items that pump up his billing.  It seems like unethical liars attract like people or something like that.  I have a hard time understanding it.  I know that stbexBPD is the way she is because she is a victim of mental illness caused by severe child abuse, but I don't know what her lawyer's excuse is so I feel sorry for her and think he is scum of the earth and am much more upset at him.  I despise that man and hope that he will be disbarred someday for victimizing his clients like he is doing to stbexBPD.  I can prove her lawyer lied in court transcripts using written 3rd party evidence.  But apparently lying in San Diego family court is routine and judges don't hold people in contempt of court over it, so being an honest person as I am is apparently not common in San Diego family law courts.  I am still better off being honest and feel better being honest, so I am not going to start lying myself even though apparently that is what is expected in court.

I know the judge in our case is a smart man and can see some of the time that stbexBPD and her lawyer are not honest, but he does not have enough information to catch all of their dishonesties.  My lawyer is ethical and a good person, but because of the way the court works I cannot get her to dispute everything that needs to be factually disputed because she gets distracted from reading my notes due to the need to listen to the judge and stbexBPD's lawyer.  And she is not used to such a high conflict divorce with such a mentally ill person.

I very much doubt the judge has any training or experience to help him understand just how dangerous and screwed up stbexBPD is.  He needs to be protected from her, too, as my psychiatrist has agreed that he is in danger from stbexBPD also if he makes a ruling sufficiently adverse to her to trigger a negative splitting.  I am not sure how to accomplish protecting him without triggering situations that might get him removed from the case due to ex-parte communications.

I know a little bit about governmental security precautions for judges and what law enforcement does to protect them, but it is inadequate to protect him from stbexBPD.  Plus he is not on cases that trigger this kind of protection anyway.  Organized crime, narcotics, and terrorism cases are often the ones that triggered increased threat protection for judges.  Family law is not considered one of these threat classes so far as I know.  Anyway, even that protection is not the right kind as it focuses on direct lethal threat mitigation.  If she negative splits against him severely, especially if the case is not yet over and she can see she could get an advantage by eliminating him from the case, the kind of protection needed is to put a GPS tracker on stbexBPD and wiretap all of her communications and keep her under constant surveillance.  Possibly they need to put a tracker on the judge and keep him under surveillance, also.  Otherwise stbexBPD may do something to the tracker to disable or confuse it (remember, she is smart and has two master's degrees in technical fields and is devious and motivated and may have access to things that would help her defeat systems like this because she, unfortunately for our country, has a security clearance and works in C4ISR type work which might get her access to information on things to do with secure tracking and communications) to allow her to act against the judge.  I don't think she is likely to do something really overt and direct like buying a gun and killing him or wiring his car to blow it up.  It is more like her style to set him up for false allegations that would scandalize him and force him to resign.  Then she would get a new judge on the case and the new one would be clueless and therefore easier to manipulate.

Obvious to anybody who understands stbexBPD, her security clearance needs to be revoked.  Unfortunately, she has as part of her defamation campaigns thoroughly trashed my family and me within her organization.  So there's not much I can do about this, I can only hope that NCIS will get involved at some point and pull it and in the meantime she won't compromise national security.  This whole chain of reasoning is part of what has me concerned about her being a flight risk and why I requested in August 2006 that the court take my daughters' passports.  Still, that is not enough protection.  It is not that hard to slip out of the US with children if somebody is really motivated to do it, especially if they have help from a foreign government intelligenvce agency to do so.  As I am writing this stuff, I am thinking that it must appear paranoid to some people.  I know this woman well.  I really don't think it is paranoid considering the overall circumstances, and am an introspective enough kind of person to be evaluating myself for that kind of thing on a frequent basis.  BPs can be bizarre, and a very smart BP with very good public persona can do a lot of damage.

Basically stbexBPD is a walking time bomb who will go off and try to destroy anybody who disagrees with her too much.  She has during her lifetime done this to her younger sister, to my parents, to me, and possibly to some of her work supervisors.  There may be more people, also, but because of what I have learned about how convincingly and easily she lies, I am not sure of the veracity of most of what she told me during our 18 years of marriage.  It could have been mostly lies as has been almost everything coming out of her mouth or in her writings since June 2006 when she started to really go off the deep end.

I do think she was legimately severely abused as a child and that is a large part of the reason why she is so sick.  During the first two years of our marriage, she had repeated nightmares that resulted in her physically hitting and kicking me while she was asleep.  When I woke her up to get her to stop, she told me she was having nightmares about her older sister or father attacking her.  That was the first clue I ever had that she was abused.  But it still took many more years for me to understand how bad the abuse was.  She was also molested as a teenager by a travel goods shop owner, or at least she says she was.  And she says the abuse from her father continued all the way up until she was 18 years old and he beat her bruised all over her body and she went to the police to have them take photos, but she refused to press charges.

I cannot be sure, but I suspect her father may have been abused, also.  He grew up during the civl war in China and left his home when he was 12 years old and never saw his family again until in his 60s.  He was raised by the military during a war.  And I have heard some stories about his father that sounded like his father was abusive towards him, forcing him to do things like kneel on sharp gravel in the hot sun for an entire day due to some minor infraction of a rule.

Abuse begets abuse.  I know that I must find a way to protect my daughters from being abused by stbexBPD or else they will likely become the next generation of abusers as it appears stbexBPD's family of origin has an established pattern of transmission of abusive conduct from one generation to the next.

I need to protect my family and myself from stbexBPD, also.  So far this isn't working so well either, judging my how trashed my life is now.  Today I was so stressed and in pain that I could not fall asleep until 7am.

And the rest of the world needs to be protected from stbexBPD, also.  On the one hand, I would be happy if there was another person who loved the kids living in her household, a new husband or something like that, as it would make it harder for stbexBPD to abuse them.  On the other hand, I would feel really sorry for the guy.  It is only a matter of time before he would become a target, too.

I honestly think that people like her need to be forced to get psychiatric treatment.  The cumulative amount of damage they do to others is comparable to many felony offenses.  But unfortunately, she presents well enough that getting a 5150 forced psychiatric confinement on her is highly improbable.  And the laws and justice system in this country are inadequate to protect the rest of us from people like her.

[happygirl]

Friend, I skipped through most of these posts because I need to get to some family events but I noticed one thing.  You mentioned that you are in San Diego.  I believe that William Eddy, an attorney and a former social worker is there.  He is a High Conflict attorney and may be able to do some consults or to give you a recommendation of places to find support resources for your situation.

HG

[protectmychildren]

Friend, I skipped through most of these posts because I need to get to some family events but I noticed one thing.  You mentioned that you are in San Diego.  I believe that William Eddy, an attorney and a former social worker is there.  He is a High Conflict attorney and may be able to do some consults or to give you a recommendation of places to find support resources for your situation.

HG

Thanks for the suggestion.

I bought William Eddy's book on divorces and have read most of it.  I tried contacting him last year, but was told he is no longer practicing as an attorney and only doing mediation now.  I also talked with Michael Roe (who wrote the foreword to the book), but he doesn't practice in San Diego, either -- he's in Illinois, but was very helpful to me in at least getting me to understand what I'm up against.

Maybe I will try contacting his office again, given how increasingly horrible things have become since that first contact.

One big question I have is how likely is mediation with a BP likely to actually work?  I thought it was probably going to be nearly impossible because of what she is like, but maybe I am wrong?  Also, what kind of security precautions do mediators take?  At least in a court, there are a lot of witnesses and a bailiff with a gun if things go too badly.

My parents have been helping with child custody exchanges.  On April 26, after the last court date, stbexBPD ran at them with a camera and started snapping pictures like it was a gun.  My father thought he was going to have to fight her at first, and my mother was at some point thinking they were going to die but fortunately it was just a camera and not a weapon.  None of us really care if she takes pictures, but she absolutely hates it when we photograph her even from a long distance.  The photography is necessary to ensure there is evidence to defend against false allegations with this stbexBPD.  Frankly I wish I could video record my entire life to defend against her.  The loss of privacy would be a small price to pay.

[happygirl]

To add to what Gary mentioned:  Is there a possibility that this chapping caused from the tongue above the lip?  Sometimes, younger children in particular, are very tactile around certain parts of the body.  Has she been a lip chewer, tongue player, in the past? Does that question make sense?

I do agree with Gary because I see it with kids that we teach that sometimes the questioning introduces the idea of shame where none really exists because kids just never want to displease. 

I am not disagreeing with the concept that there may have been abuse, you will be the only one to really know in the end, just wondering about a simpler (and hopefully gentler) explanation.

Maybe I will try contacting his office again, given how increasingly horrible things have become since that first contact.

I am just wondering if someone in the office can send you in a more appropriate direction to get you some help.

HG

[screamingfire]

Here's a link to someone who also is on the up and up about PAS-

http://parental-alienation.com/consulting.htm

I have visited the site quite a bit and find it very well put together. Maybe try this route too? At least they talk openly of having a network of attorneys established. I haven't called to see how it goes so I don't know how that all works, thought it might help.

[protectmychildren]

Gary,

Thank you so much for your reply.  The photographic analysis is really interesting, you picked out some details I had not noticed previously.  The bumps on the outside in particular are interesting, because the medical exam of her mouth on the inside also mentioned raised bumps on the inside of her lower lip.

Originally I thought this was an accident but was going to be an opportunity for me to get blamed falsely for something.  I could not imagine my stbexBPD doing something like this to my daughter.  But I could easily imagine her blaming me for it because she had done that kind of thing previously, going so far as to make false criminal allegations against both my father and me at various incidents she caused.

My opinion has changed over the last few months because of the amount of lying and other injuries that have been happening.  I am still not sure what happened to my daughter's face, and still admit it might be an accident.  But it is really alarming that it is being covered up by my daughter like this.  If it was lip smacking, why wouldn't she ever say so herself?  

She admits to doing a lot of other silly things that have made a mess or caused some problems or hurt herself.  This is the only injury that she has ever had that she has tried to explain with dozens of different explanations none of which make any sense.  Every other injury was consistently explained and made sense or was consistently explained as she had no idea what caused it.  This was the case even if it seemed to have been caused by neglect or carelessness.  She doesn't seem like a child who is easily embarrassed by anything, so I don't think she is ashamed of something she did herself and hiding the explanation for that reason.  There is only one time I have ever caught her lying for such a reason, and that was scribbling on the wall.  But she admitted it eventually and helped me clean it up and since I didn't get mad at her about it, she has never lied about anything like this again.

Generally speaking, when I take pictures of the kids to try to get injuries or medical conditions, I try to do this under "normal" circumstances like playing at the playground and just taking a lot of shots from various angles.  But it isn't always possible to do this.

I have talked with my 4 year old about the pictures and she says that none of them bother her, but ones at birthday parties and the park are more fun to look at.  So I think there is no harm being done as far as I can determine, and am conscious about what you said.  Thank you for reminding me of it, maybe it will help other people, too.

If I did not have my hostile false allegation prone stbexBPD still involved with my daughters, there would not be any need to be taking so many pictures trying to get shots like these in the first place.  As it is, I missed taking pictures that could have proven I did not lie about a conjunctivitis infection, my 15 month old daughter's supposed rash for which I was blamed by stbexBPD (impossibly, I might add, after I found out that she had a well-baby exam between when I had her and when I got her back with the bright pink bottom) was almost certainly the result of first degree burn scalding because of the pefectly even pinkish tone, sharply defined boundaries, and coverage over her entire bottom.  But stupid me, I thought it might be a weird rash even though she had never in her life previously had one.  I regret not getting pictures of these things now.

Other stuff I regret not getting pictures of are things my stbexBPD has done that don't directly involve the kids.   For instance, she entered my car without my permission, forcing me to back away to keep a safe distance from her.  I wish I had gotten photos of her "attacking" my parents by running at them and snapping photos of them at close range without even looking at what she was doing, almost like she was firing a gun.  But I wasn't prepared for these things -- didn't have a camera or wasn't in a position to get pictures of them.

I try to take all the pictures I can reasonably take now.  Somedays it is several hundred in one day.  The ratio of useful stuff to not so useful stuff is low, but there are gems that I have gotten that I would not have gotten if I were not snapping so many photographs.  For instance, she claims to be afraid of my family and me physically harming her, but I now have many photos that indicate this is basically implausible given how she acted.

[Mr. M]

Shingles?  ?

[protectmychildren]

To add to what Gary mentioned:  Is there a possibility that this chapping caused from the tongue above the lip?  Sometimes, younger children in particular, are very tactile around certain parts of the body.  Has she been a lip chewer, tongue player, in the past? Does that question make sense?

I do agree with Gary because I see it with kids that we teach that sometimes the questioning introduces the idea of shame where none really exists because kids just never want to displease. 

I am not disagreeing with the concept that there may have been abuse, you will be the only one to really know in the end, just wondering about a simpler (and hopefully gentler) explanation.

Maybe I will try contacting his office again, given how increasingly horrible things have become since that first contact.

I am just wondering if someone in the office can send you in a more appropriate direction to get you some help.

HG

She has never been a lip biter, sucked her fingers, chewed on things (other than food), or played around with her tongue except maybe to stick it out to make a funny face.  I don't think it was chapped.  It was definitely some kind of bruise.  The medical exam notes indicated that the type of injury it most resembled was a suction wound, but this was a very uncertain conclusion.

My daughter is very used to me asking silly questions, and often I ask her silly questions to prompt her to freely answer honestly with whatever she wants to say without encouraging any sensible answer that might influence how she thinks.  For instance, I think I asked about this facial injury thngs like "did an elephant step on your face?" and "maybe an alligator gave you a kiss?" and "did you try to vacuum out your mouth?"   No reply.  This is really weird for her.  Usually it would at least be "daddy, you are so silly!"

I would be happier if there was a good and consistent explanation that didn't involve abuse.  That her mother's explanation and her own widely varying range of explanations (paint, not a bruise, ate a hot dog, etc.), her comment about how mommy told her not to tell what happened, that she didn't go to school for days around this injury, and that this injury was discovered by me on the first day that I had to call the police to get cooperation for a child custody exchange all seem really weird.

I am not sure we will ever know what happened.  At some point, she will forget about it.  If it was traumatic, maybe that is the best thing to happen for her so long as it or some other traumatic injury doesn't happen again.

[protectmychildren]

Shingles?  ?

I checked that out on webmd.com and found this:

You cannot develop shingles if you have not had chickenpox.

She has never had chickenpox.  Also, the coloration was localized in just that one area, it faded away completely after several days, and she never complained much about any pain except for the inside of her mouth hurt.  That is what prompted the exam of the inside of the mouth.

[protectmychildren]

I have been away from this for a long time by the way.

it could also be just one initial injury and the second one was from soothing the firts one buy rubbing it with the lower lip :P...

Did I confuse you :-X..i did me 8)...lots of variables and best left to ther pros.

One day I decided to play a game with her to see if we could make our lower lips touch our noses.  I tried, and could not do it.  She tried, and could not do it.  I watched to see how high she could get.  It did not appear her lower lip could reach high enough to cause the bruise under her nose and above her upper lip.  Maybe if there was some additional force pushing her jaw upwards it might be different, but there was no sign of injury underneath the chin and no damage to any teeth.

I wish I could find a pro to interpret this.  If you can think if any suggestions on how to find one, I would appreciate it.

[Mr. M]

She found her mother's bong?  ?

[garyw]

My opinion has changed over the last few months because of the amount of lying and other injuries that have been happening.  I am still not sure what happened to my daughter's face, and still admit it might be an accident.  But it is really alarming that it is being covered up by my daughter like this.  If it was lip smacking, why wouldn't she ever say so herself?  

It wouldn't surprise me a bit. We are talking about a child and child ways and thinking and always wanting to do the right thing and be looked at as being good in front of either party. They don't and shouldn't have the bias that we may have.

I'll use myself as an example: If you were to look at my knuckles even today,you would ask, "Wow..what happened to your hands? did you hit someone or someone hit you..or did you scrape them on something?

I have a habbit of picking on my knusckes or even chewing on them even without thinking about it. I can remember the first time I ever did it. I was in the cub or boy scouts at a meeting and it was being planned for me to go on a week camping trip. The scout master had already raped me several times and now I'm being sent off for a week with him and my parents are oking it. Of course my parents didnt know because that would have made me feel bad and ashamed because there must be something wrong with me...i was scared and ashamed so out of being nervouse I started picking at my knuclkes. my parents never did know and I never told them.

The visable injury that anyone could see was only smoke comming from the real internal one that really hurt...it was merley a sign post.

I'm not trying to send you down another road by the way ...just trying to explain that our expectations of what a chilad may or may not admit is on a differant level than ours.

I try to take all the pictures I can reasonably take now.  Somedays it is several hundred in one day.  The ratio of useful stuff to not so useful stuff is low, but there are gems that I have gotten that I would not have gotten if I were not snapping so many photographs.  For instance, she claims to be afraid of my family and me physically harming her, but I now have many photos that indicate this is basically implausible given how she acted.

You seem very involved and maybe you should be...i hope not. i hope your wife/x wife is totally innocent.

I still wouldnt involve a 3 or 4 year old in what the shots are for. Of course they will prob say its ok and they understand.I just think (and I'm no expert) that these areas are way too much for common everyday conversation and involvment with a parent.

Tricky spot you are in. You don't want to just turn your head away but don't want to create what may be nothing or almost nothing into something.

Just stay alert and use pros advice...I'm not one 8)

[schnitzel]

A friend of mine`s daughter had this. It is just chafing, not a bruise. Her daughter got it from sucking her thumb too much while holding a blanket in her face. I think it was wet too long or something like that. At any rate- this is not caused by abuse. I am not sure about the other stuff though - and all the allegations thrown right and left must be very nerve-racking. I can understand that you are extremely worried and upset, but it might be that some of this panic is rubbing off on the children. I think it should be remembered that most small children - even with an abusive mother - will protect the image of their mother. They dont do this because they are liers. They do this because they need to for their own sanity. They also should be protected from overwhelming emotions. I never knew that but I read that too strong emotions are something that children cant deal with- and the parent is actually supposed to protect the child from feeling feelings that are too strong. This is especially true for children who are under the age of 5 - but maybe even up to adolescense.
So if possible- I think that the parents should battle it out without involving the children. Taking 100 photos a day might be a bit of overkill- and very disturbing for the children.
I think Gary and I are on the same page with this. Fight your fights - but dont put your children in the middle.
Good luck to you and your kids!

[doright]

After seeing the photo, it reminds me of when my son when he was young. He used to chew on his upper lip and lower lip. It was a nervous habit he did. His dad was emotionally and physically abusive with him, and he would get this all around his lips where it was absolutely chapped so badly after visitations.  He did it to try and comfort himself.  Your little girl may be doing the same thing, the emotional turmoil needs a release.

[garyw]

Your probably going to have to bite your own lip around the kids and handle this with some real finesse so as not to accidentally do any damage.

This may sound very wierd but sometimes I see or feel things when I see photographs.

One time at a new clients house,I saw a picture on their wall of a little boy looking over a mountian range. I was just getting ready to ask the client what range it was because I thought I had been there before. But just then something told me not to because I felt that little boy was no longer with us.  Later I did ask and they said the name of the range and said that also that was the last pictuer taken of their grandson because he had died a week later.

The picture of your little girl disturbed me to look at. It was something about the expression on her face,like you could almost see inside.

I haven't a clue what she was thinking or why..could have been it just made her feel wierd...I don't know.  I just want to say for some reason to back off just in terms of their involvement in knowing why these are being taken.

To stay on your toes but somehow remove them from this mix till its found out whats really up if anything.

werid I know hugh :P

this is one of those things where if there is even a shred of truth to it that you need to find out but at the same time the best prayer answered is that your dead wrong.

[blondie]

Teeth are in an arc shape. Not a straight line as this bruise is. Licking and "burning the lips" from the constant licking is also in a slight arc shape and covers the entire surface from mouth edge of lip to outer reach of the tongue.. It would be all but impossible, from what I know, that a child could suck on a lip, not have it show in the arc shape, much less not have the entire area bruised or chapped from the sucking.
Suck your own lip as far as you can into your mouth...its in an arc, right? And any damage from the sucking or even being hit with the lip in the mouth would be an arc. Being hit with an object from the outside could easily cause a straight bruise, plus the damage to the bottom lip. Hit across the mouth with the side of a hand? A toy? Hard to tell. I just dont believe it is a self induced injury.

What is also greatly disturbing me is your report in the link you gave of the smaller child having burns on the bottom that appeared to be scalding...and burns on her legs. I have seen diaper rash where the baby was left in wet diapers for so long the entire bottom area to the top of the diaper, front and back appeared scalded...and its exactly that, urine scalds. It is usually all the area the diaper covers. OR, a baby being left in a feces soiled diaper for a long time will have a burn appearing area on the bottom and up the back area. It takes a several hours to cause this unless the baby has diahrrhea and is still left in a soiled diaper.

Good grief, man, an undiagnosable bruise on a top lip and damaged bottom lip are bad enough. Burns on an 18mo legs?
Toddlers fall, they get bruises and scrapes, usually on forehead, elbows and knees. NOT burns on their legs. I know at the Clinic where I worked in Pediatrics, I would joke with the mothers about the forehead and knee bruises, small ones, and that the baby was learning to walk. At 18 mo, I would expect to see more scrapes from falling. NOT burns.

Keep doing all you can for your children. Help them in any way you are able.
Start you a journal if you dont have one. Document any and all instances, pictures are great. When anything out of the ordinary happens, document the time date place and any quotes from ex, children, and the emotional reactions. Get a recorder for your phone, and record all phone conversations with their mother. Do all you can to be proactive for these little girls. If possible, get a phone that is able to take videos.

I know you are trying so hard to protect them. Sometimes gathering your own evidence is about the only way you can get attention to the harm being done.
Please do read of all the fathers that have won custody of their children. It is possible!

I wish you all the luck needed, and God bless you and the children,
Pat

[Rose]

My niece used to "lip smack" a lot, and it would cause a red mark to appear above the lips, like this.  But, my niece would do it all the time -- it was just a little habit, at a younger age.  I think if it were lip smacking, you'd see the consistent behavior leading up to it.

[hestia]

Hi protect my children,

It's hard for me to tell from the photo, but is it more a bruise, or is it rashy, like it's chafed?
It looks oddly like a rash I got once when I put hair remover (Nair) meant for legs on my upper lip.
Could her mom do that, and she got into it, trying to be like mommy? Or could she have put something else there? Maybe now she's worried she might get into trouble for doing something she shouldn't have?

I have a mischevous little girl with sensitive skin, and she's gotten some pretty strange rashes. She's also gotten rashes from rubbing too hard with a washcloth trying to get a Kool-Aid mustache off.

I am not saying you shouldn't investigate abuse - however, little kids can get into a lot of stuff.

[ForeverDad]

Did I read earlier where the authorities thought it looked like sucking or suction damage to the lip?  Long and narrow reminded me of a vacuum's crevice tool.  Or, going along with Gary's bumps research, a suction device with little holes?  Or a swinging brush with very few bristles?  (I have furniture that is "aged" by someone at the factory having swung a steel brush which punches holes in the wood surface, mimicking age.)  Anyway, those are the only remote ideas to  come to mind.  Hmm, maybe mild chemical burns/reaction?

[Sissy]

This is a totally uneducated guess...and perhaps someone has already suggested this, but when I first saw the photo, it looked to me like a mark that would come if she had been smacked on the mouth with the brush side of a hairbrush. 

But it could as easily be chapped lips, too.  My kids sometimes get awfully blistered chapped lips, especially when they have a fever.

I wouldn't stress too much over it, unless there are other indications besides these marks.  Your daughter may not be able to explain it, because if it is just from something "normal" like chapping, in her view there wouldn't have been a "cause". 

I hope it turns out to be nothing.  I think, as others have said, that you have to be watchful, but also careful that you don't make too big a deal out of it to your daughter.

Best of luck,

Sissy

[blondie]

Please, address the mention of burns on the legs of the younger child you mentioned in the link.

I really would like to know more about those, and their appearance.

Pat

[protectmychildren]

Please, address the mention of burns on the legs of the younger child you mentioned in the link.

I really would like to know more about those, and their appearance.

Pat

The burns were on the legs of the older child and the finger of the younger child.  There is a new injury on the wrist of the younger child that might be a burn a few days old, but I am not sure.  It looks like it has slight blistering in the center of the injury zone, so that is why I think it might be a burn, but it could be a bruise, also.

The burns on the legs of the older child are claimed to have been from being burned on the tailpipe of their mother's BMW station wagon.  After the first time this happened, my daughter was super-conscious of tailpipes and pointed out my car has two of them.  So I believe the first time that probably is what happened.  I don't know about the second time for sure, nothing was said by the mother about it.

The finger burn on my younger daughter was claimed by the stbexUBPD mother to have been from her touching a hot pan.  This may be true, but I don't understand what the mother was thinking holding the child in one arm while handling hot pans to unload food from them with the other arm.  She should know that kids have a tendency to reach out and grab things their parents are touching, so I think this is at least neglectful although probably not intentional.

Will try to post more later as my younger daughter has woken up now,

[protectmychildren]

She found her mother's bong?  ?

So far as I know, her mother has never used illegal drugs.  Her addictions seem to be more things like extreme exercise, meditation, and apparently lately becoming a born-again Christian.

She seems very easily influenced by others with little rational reason or ability to explain why.  That is one of the traits of HPD, and she has some other traits of it, too.   But not enough I think to satisfy the criteria.  Same for NPD.  But BPD and APD seem like dead-on matches for her.  I wonder how common it is for BPD and APD to be co-morbid?

[protectmychildren]

You seem very involved and maybe you should be...i hope not. i hope your wife/x wife is totally innocent.

I still wouldnt involve a 3 or 4 year old in what the shots are for. Of course they will prob say its ok and they understand.I just think (and I'm no expert) that these areas are way too much for common everyday conversation and involvment with a parent.

Tricky spot you are in. You don't want to just turn your head away but don't want to create what may be nothing or almost nothing into something.

The kids don't know the purpose of the pictures, and don't ask, either.  I try to get many of them in natural settings, such as playing in the park.  But it is really hard to take good pictures of some of things that happen.  For instance, a week or so ago my 1.5 year old looked like she had another burn on her wrist.  The central area looked blistered and the skin around it was discolored.  No scab like an abrasion usually has.  All the affected skin felt rough.  I don't know if it is a burn or not, but it doesn't look like a typical bruise or abrasion.  So burn is the best guess.  Taking a picture of that is impossible without holding her arm in a position where I can see it.

I also like to have plenty of pictures that can be used to prove when injuries probably occurred.  I'm tired of being blamed for things that I did not do, and don't want to end up getting charged with some crime over an injury that didn't even occur while the girls were in my custody.

[protectmychildren]

After seeing the photo, it reminds me of when my son when he was young. He used to chew on his upper lip and lower lip. It was a nervous habit he did. His dad was emotionally and physically abusive with him, and he would get this all around his lips where it was absolutely chapped so badly after visitations.  He did it to try and comfort himself.  Your little girl may be doing the same thing, the emotional turmoil needs a release.

From my own experience with chapped skin, it should feel rough.  This injury did not feel like that.  The skin was smooth.  So that seems to lean towards some kind of injury other than chapping or an abrasion.  Since there was never any scab, that also leans against an abrasion.  No central blister area, so burn seems to be not likely, either.  Hence the best guess is a bruise from impact or suction.

[protectmychildren]

Teeth are in an arc shape. Not a straight line as this bruise is. Licking and "burning the lips" from the constant licking is also in a slight arc shape and covers the entire surface from mouth edge of lip to outer reach of the tongue.. It would be all but impossible, from what I know, that a child could suck on a lip, not have it show in the arc shape, much less not have the entire area bruised or chapped from the sucking.
Suck your own lip as far as you can into your mouth...its in an arc, right? And any damage from the sucking or even being hit with the lip in the mouth would be an arc. Being hit with an object from the outside could easily cause a straight bruise, plus the damage to the bottom lip. Hit across the mouth with the side of a hand? A toy? Hard to tell. I just dont believe it is a self induced injury.

I don't think it is self-induced.  Usually she explains anything self-induced right away without hesitation.

What is also greatly disturbing me is your report in the link you gave of the smaller child having burns on the bottom that appeared to be scalding...and burns on her legs. I have seen diaper rash where the baby was left in wet diapers for so long the entire bottom area to the top of the diaper, front and back appeared scalded...and its exactly that, urine scalds. It is usually all the area the diaper covers. OR, a baby being left in a feces soiled diaper for a long time will have a burn appearing area on the bottom and up the back area. It takes a several hours to cause this unless the baby has diahrrhea and is still left in a soiled diaper.

The older child has had the burns on her legs.  The younger one had a definite burn on her finger from something -- it was claimed to be a hot pan that was in reach because of the mother handling her and hot pans at the same time.  An accident I think, but seems irresponsible to be putting hot pans in the obvious reaching range of a 1.5 year old.  And a week or so ago, she had another injury that looks and feels like a burn, this time on her wrist.  No explanation was forthcoming.  The older child says she has no idea, and the mother said nothing.  I asked her lawyer -- no reply.

The initial "diaper rash" had boundaries that were very distinct.  Were the boundaries on the one from urine burns distinct and sharp or irregular and gradual?  As far as I know, the chemical burns from urine or poop with something unusual in it should not have distinct and sharp boundaries or regular edges.

Good grief, man, an undiagnosable bruise on a top lip and damaged bottom lip are bad enough. Burns on an 18mo legs?
Toddlers fall, they get bruises and scrapes, usually on forehead, elbows and knees. NOT burns on their legs. I know at the Clinic where I worked in Pediatrics, I would joke with the mothers about the forehead and knee bruises, small ones, and that the baby was learning to walk. At 18 mo, I would expect to see more scrapes from falling. NOT burns.

Both kids get the typical bruises and scrapes.  These do not worry me.  I get worried when the injury is weird and the explanation is either totally blocked or sounds strange.  "It's paint" obviously does not explain a bruise.  Also, I thought it was weird that one of the facial injuries was accompanied by an explanation from a not-quite-4-year-old as happening as the "car dealership" whereas normally she calls it the "car fixing place".  Maybe she was coached.  It doesn't mean the explanation was false, obviously, but so far the mother has refused to produce the claimed note from the car dealership that she showed to the preschool, and the preschool didn't retain a copy.  If it was me and I had a legitimate note, I would produce it so as to end as suspicion or questions immediately.  If it was a fake note, I would figure that out.  Maybe that is why she won't produce a copy and didn't have the preschool keep it or a copy.

Keep doing all you can for your children. Help them in any way you are able.
Start you a journal if you dont have one. Document any and all instances, pictures are great. When anything out of the ordinary happens, document the time date place and any quotes from ex, children, and the emotional reactions. Get a recorder for your phone, and record all phone conversations with their mother. Do all you can to be proactive for these little girls. If possible, get a phone that is able to take videos.

I know you are trying so hard to protect them. Sometimes gathering your own evidence is about the only way you can get attention to the harm being done.
Please do read of all the fathers that have won custody of their children. It is possible!

I do keep a journal, but it is hard to have time to write in it every day.  Almost every day something weird or odd happens.  Today my 4 year old was talking about how her mother doesn't want her to talk with me and that she is going to tell her mother to let me call her.  On the one hand, this is what the court orders say and I do think it seems reasonable to talk with her on the phone once or twice during the 5 day periods that pass without her and her sister with me.  But I am concerned that she could trigger an attack on herself.

[protectmychildren]

The picture of your little girl disturbed me to look at. It was something about the expression on her face,like you could almost see inside.

I haven't a clue what she was thinking or why..could have been it just made her feel wierd...I don't know.  I just want to say for some reason to back off just in terms of their involvement in knowing why these are being taken.

She was very unhappy that day.  Her mother was making the child custody exchange very difficult, refusing to turn over her younger sister.  I ended up calling the police to enforce it, but before they arrived she turned them both over and I called off the police.  This was probably good because it looks like she waited around for the police to show up to try to spin some story about me being a problem.  This was also 9 days after she tried to frame my father for battery and child endangerment, and about a week after she threatened to bother me for the rest of my life unless I sign over all my parental rights to her.  My daughter probably heard about some of this stuff, maybe even heard her mother telling the police officers lies about her grandfather.  Sometime around then she was making comments about "mommy wants you to go to jail" and stuff like that.

As far as I know, they don't know why the pictures are being taken.  I have not told them anything more than for one picture it was to pass along to mommy to communicate the latest state of the younger one's diaper rash as she needed to know this in order to follow the doctor's orders about bringing her back in if it didn't improve in 3 to 4 days while I didn't have custody.  They have never asked anything about any of the pictures.

Police and CPS people need a lot more training on DSM-IV Axis 2 Cluster B personality disorders.  The people who have them are often such good liars, and for BPD they are often women.  Given the already nearly universal belief caused by the women's rights movement that men are evil scum who obviously abuse women and women never lie, men are basically guilty and cannot be proven innocent if a woman claims abuse or harassment.  I'm all for women having equal rights, but the fact is right now they have superior rights to men in areas that can destroy men's lives, and some of them are sick enough to use this to destroy their ex-husbands or ex-boyfriends.

[protectmychildren]

My niece used to "lip smack" a lot, and it would cause a red mark to appear above the lips, like this.  But, my niece would do it all the time -- it was just a little habit, at a younger age.  I think if it were lip smacking, you'd see the consistent behavior leading up to it.

No consistent behavior like this.  Since her preschool staff, grandparents, and me have all never seen her lip smack except when we were trying to play a game to see if anybody could touch their noses with their lower lip (this was to try to understand the injury, but she didn't know this), she has never lipsmacked to our knowledge.  Hence the explanation seems implausible given this and the nature of the injury.

[protectmychildren]

Hi protect my children,

It's hard for me to tell from the photo, but is it more a bruise, or is it rashy, like it's chafed?
It looks oddly like a rash I got once when I put hair remover (Nair) meant for legs on my upper lip.
Could her mom do that, and she got into it, trying to be like mommy? Or could she have put something else there? Maybe now she's worried she might get into trouble for doing something she shouldn't have?

I have a mischevous little girl with sensitive skin, and she's gotten some pretty strange rashes. She's also gotten rashes from rubbing too hard with a washcloth trying to get a Kool-Aid mustache off.

I am not saying you shouldn't investigate abuse - however, little kids can get into a lot of stuff.

The skin felt smooth, not rough.  So it seems like a bruise.  She doesn't tend to get rashes.  Neither did the younger daughter until we suspect she was scalded in mid-January but we were too stupid to realize it was probably a scald at the time.  Part of what is so frustrating about dealing with their uBPD/APD/whatever mother is that it is like you have to start to thinking in some twisted unnatural way to consider what could be happening.  I find this hard to do, but it is getting easier as I see more and more examples of it against which I have to defend against.

Her mother seldom wears make-up.

[protectmychildren]

Did I read earlier where the authorities thought it looked like sucking or suction damage to the lip?  Long and narrow reminded me of a vacuum's crevice tool.  Or, going along with Gary's bumps research, a suction device with little holes?  Or a swinging brush with very few bristles?  (I have furniture that is "aged" by someone at the factory having swung a steel brush which punches holes in the wood surface, mimicking age.)  Anyway, those are the only remote ideas to  come to mind.  Hmm, maybe mild chemical burns/reaction?

Yes, the medical exam mentioned it looked like it might have been suction but didn't explain why.  I asked her about stuff like kissing an alligator, putting her mouth in a vacuum cleaner, etc.  She said none of that happened.  From what I understand of questioning kids, you can't push them in one direction and have to give them a lot of options.  Ideally, don't suggest any answer at all.  But if she doesn't talk, I suggest really silly answers to see if that will get her to open up.   

Do you think a hairbrush could do that with its little bristles?  I would have thought there would be more bristle impact points.  I guess it depends upon the brush.

[protectmychildren]

This is a totally uneducated guess...and perhaps someone has already suggested this, but when I first saw the photo, it looked to me like a mark that would come if she had been smacked on the mouth with the brush side of a hairbrush. 

Seems like a possibility.  Not sure how this would cause the injury inside the lower mouth, however.  Maybe her mouth was open when it happened?  However, if so, then why would her mother claim lip smacking unless it was intentionally done?

But it could as easily be chapped lips, too.  My kids sometimes get awfully blistered chapped lips, especially when they have a fever.

So far as I can recall, she was not sick around that time, and the skin didn't feel rough or stiff like happens with my own lips when they are chapped.

I wouldn't stress too much over it, unless there are other indications besides these marks.  Your daughter may not be able to explain it, because if it is just from something "normal" like chapping, in her view there wouldn't have been a "cause". 

I hope it turns out to be nothing.  I think, as others have said, that you have to be watchful, but also careful that you don't make too big a deal out of it to your daughter.

It very well could be a legitimate accidental injury.  It doesn't "feel" like this given the overall context and other information, however.  If she really didn't know what the cause was, why would she start right away after I wiped it with a wet towel (thinking it was juice residue) with talking about it being "paint"?

The kids get a lot of injuries when with their mother.  Even one day with their mother, they often come back with many bandages and bruises.  This doesn't happen when they are with me for 2 days at a time, so something different is happening with them when they are with their mother.

[happytobedivorced]

So sorry you and your children are in this situation. You are staying on top of things and being very observant and cautious. I applaud you for that. My first instinct when I saw the pictures and read your post was that your daughter maybe doing something out of nervousness and anxiety. My son had been licking his lips when he was faced with certain situations that made him nervous and the licking caused a slight case of impetigo along with the irritated skin. He was hardly aware he was doing it and I actually never saw him do it.

I wish you and your girls the best. Give them all a hug!

[protectmychildren]

So sorry you and your children are in this situation. You are staying on top of things and being very observant and cautious. I applaud you for that. My first instinct when I saw the pictures and read your post was that your daughter maybe doing something out of nervousness and anxiety. My son had been licking his lips when he was faced with certain situations that made him nervous and the licking caused a slight case of impetigo along with the irritated skin. He was hardly aware he was doing it and I actually never saw him do it.

I wish you and your girls the best. Give them all a hug!

Thanks.

I definitely do not want to be accusing anybody of anything inaccurately.  If I make inaccurate statements, then I'd just be doing the same kind of garbage my stbex is doing.  And it's no good to do that.  So it's like I have to walk a fine line on trying to make sure the kids are protected while at the same time not hurting my stbex unnecessarily.  She doesn't worry about the fine line.  I guess that is part of the "no boundaries" issue for BPs.

[blondie]

So. After all the posts you have done, please go back and read them as a non-involved person, just read.

Your children are being physically abused from all you say. I dont see how much of anyone could come to a different conclusion.

Tell the little ones you want to take a picture of the 'ouchies'. If they are like most little kids, they love to show off ouchies and get the attention and will be more than glad for you to.

Sometine in the future, before your children are severely physically harmed, if you dont consider bruising and burning to be severe, you are going to have to be pro-active for those poor little kids.

Some adult needs to be. Any child does not deserve to be hit, burned, or abused. Period.

You can help them, if you choose to admit what is happening before your eyes. How many ways can you find excuses for the injuries over and over and over?

Quit hiding from what you see and help them. Only you can, she only abuses them from all you are relating. Be a good parent, be there for your girls and help them to not be harmed and hit and burned.

Pat

[Her Mama]

Perhaps I missed it but just in case no one mentioned this yet, if your children end up seriously hurt, and you are found to have knowledge of prior abuse but did nothing but take pictures of it (did not fight tooth and nail with CPS to investigate or file for emergency custody), you would be held AS accountable for the abuse as the person actually is committing it.  That stinks sometimes because I realize that you want to be absolutely sure before you take serious action.  However, courts (and CPS) prefer to err on the side of caution and expect anyone that "thinks" there might be something going on to report it and/or try to take action to prevent it from happening.

Just my experience from dealing with the system in an abuse/neglect situation.

KSM

[protectmychildren]

Perhaps I missed it but just in case no one mentioned this yet, if your children end up seriously hurt, and you are found to have knowledge of prior abuse but did nothing but take pictures of it (did not fight tooth and nail with CPS to investigate or file for emergency custody), you would be held AS accountable for the abuse as the person actually is committing it.  That stinks sometimes because I realize that you want to be absolutely sure before you take serious action.  However, courts (and CPS) prefer to err on the side of caution and expect anyone that "thinks" there might be something going on to report it and/or try to take action to prevent it from happening.

Just my experience from dealing with the system in an abuse/neglect situation.

I've reported a number of things to San Diego CWS, so have my therapist, the psychological evaluator on the divorce case, the preschool, and others.  CWS does nothing except going after me for a diaper rash picture that was attached to an e-mail directing what the medical care situation was and what needed to be done and claiming that this picture is somehow emotionally abusive.  This is a load of crap, and the reason why they did this was because they were manipulated by stbex and her pathological lies.  I dumped maybe 100+ pages of evidence and other information on CWS via e-mail and fax.  Then they call and complain I overloaded their fax server and it is against policy for me to e-mail them!  CWS is useless, at least the current social worker and her supervisor are.  "IT IS AGAINST OUR POLICY TO HELP CHILDREN IF WE CAN ABUSE MEN INSTEAD" seems to be their attitude from contact so far.  I called a few weeks later to see if they ever investigated the facial injury photo.   No call, no response.   Maybe it is time to fax and e-mail them again to get their attention?  But maybe then they will charge me with harassment?  CWS is a horrible agency the way it is run, and some of their staff needs to be fired or reprogrammed or something.  But to be fair, maybe if there was something done about holding people who make false allegations liable for criminal charges then the CWS system might have a shot at coping with the real problems despite their defects.  If the statistics that around 60% to 70% of abuse allegations are false is true, maybe their workload would go down by half and they would actually be able to pay some attention to real problems if the false accusers would suffer for their lies.

Anybody know if I can file complaint to force a change in social workers?  Two of the previous ones were better.  One was worse.  Seems like a crapshoot. 

Anybody know if I can force the police to pursue it as a criminal matter?  Not sure if this is any good, either, as stbex manipulated them into calling me to threaten me with arrest.  They didn't bother to read the court orders, just accepted her word, until my father called them and got them to back off by getting them to read the court orders and see they were wrong.

Maybe I need to go after CWS by going above their heads to force them to act?  But will that make them take revenge on me and all but doom my daughters to destruction?  It has happened with other agencies such as IRS.  Government abuses people, destroys their lives, and doesn't even apologize when it was wrong to do so.  Probably nearly everybody here with kids knows about that.

[protectmychildren]

So. After all the posts you have done, please go back and read them as a non-involved person, just read.

Your children are being physically abused from all you say. I dont see how much of anyone could come to a different conclusion.

I agree.  But San Diego CWS is too stupid to figure this out.  They have all the same information and more stuff that is additionally convincing.  I wonder if they even bother to look at it?

I get pictures of a lot of these injuries.  My 4 year old daughter talks about some injuries, and is silent or refuses to talk about others.  Personally I still think this is a major indicator of child abuse, and her preschool agreed.  But they are fed up with CWS traumatizing her with interrogations and doing nothing, and I don't know if they report anything now.

Some adult needs to be. Any child does not deserve to be hit, burned, or abused. Period.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think the physical abuse so far is anything compared to the emotional abuse that I suspect is going on to maintain control over my 4 year old daughter.  Before the divorce, stbex would tell the kids that I'm a bad daddy, that she is going to take them and move away, and they will never see me again.  She was doing this for months or longer.  I was scared because she was daily threatening to report me to the police to get me arrested if I didn't do what she wanted.

Right now I am worried that my older daughter is going to tell her mother to let me talk with her on the telephone like she was saying she was going to do and stbex may smack her or yell at her.  She wants our daughters to hate me and hate their grandparents.  So far she can't make them do so,  Partly this may be because the 4 year old figured out that stbex is a liar and the 1.5 year old is too young to understand the lies yet.

I don't know how to protect them short of stbex losing custody except for supervised visitations until she can get effective treatment to make her better.  And I've been told over and over this is unlikely to happen.  But a lot of people who don't understand BPD just think I'm a nasty man to suggest taking children away from their mother.

[Her Mama]

We ended up "going over their heads" by filing for emergency custody of Little Bit for suspected abuse and neglect.  Prior to this we (my exH, DOT's aunt, and I) had been trying for several months to get SOMEONE with CPS to listen and do more than just call DOT to see if everything was okay.  My exH didn't get the emergency order because he wasn't on the birth certificate but the judge sent an order for CPS to investigate.  It only took 21 more days and Little Bit (and her brother) were removed from DOT's home.  

From there it really is a crap shoot with caseworkers.  The first 3 we had were all about reconciliation with mom.  Only when the last one (on her first day with our case) witnessed a horrific incident outside the CPS building that led DOT to attack the departing caseworker and the supervising caseworker (and the sheriff had to be called) did any of our caseworkers "get it" as to what we were dealing with from the get-go.  It's horrible that Little Bit had to be dragged from a vehicle, completely traumatized, while seeing her mother attacking the caseworkers and the sheriff's deputy.  When the caseworkers finally got her to us, she clung to me as if her life depended on it.  Sad that it took that kind of drama for them to see that maybe a little girl would be better off with her dad and his exW than her nutcase of a mother.

What caused the incident?  The magistrate told her again that she could not be present for our visitation.  She went over to CPS (where we were supposed to have our visit) and lied to the caseworkers that my exH dropped his case for custody.  They told her they knew differently (after confirming with my ex) and she had to leave.  They set a boundary and she lost it.

Before this, the caseworkers would come in, do everything they could to get the kids back with "MOM".  They would bend over sideways, backwards, and up-side down for her, and just before they were to the point of complete DOT burnout, they would be replaced.  We had a total of 6 caseworkers.  One did the removal, four were "our" caseworkers each for a max of 2 months, and one supervisor who would barely even speak to us until the last 3 months of the case... Our case from removal to final order only lasted 9 months and 6 days.  Kind of a pathetic turn-over rate when the job is deciding the fate of a child.

Trust me.  I feel your pain when it comes to CPS and I know what it is like for a father trying to get custody.

[ForeverDad]

When the caseworkers finally got her to us, she clung to me as if her life depended on it.

Same here.  On the day I called 911 and the police came, my son, then 3, clung to me until long after the police left.

I can honestly say he's never asked me to go back to his mother and when I do say it's time to go, he is reluctant to go, sometimes even crying.  Yet it is only now after more than a year with her having sole temporary custody that the court sees what's best.  Still, her sole custody will probably continue until shared parenting is agreed upon or negotiations fail.  I wonder how long she will delay that process, or try to...

[protectmychildren]

Somebody on this web site mentioned Munchausen Sydrome by Proxy (MSBP) as a possible explanation for all the things that have gone wrong, especially those with the younger daughter.

This got me to thinking, so far as I know all the blatant medical care mishandling occurred while stbex had a roommate who was supposedly a recently retired neonatal or pediatric nurse.  The problems started a short time after she showed up, and ended shortly before she moved back to New York.

I was wondering about this roommate's involvement in all the problems and some of the strange reactions she had when she was at child custody exchanges helping stbex, so in March I sent stbex the following questions:

Stbex,
 
Can you tell me more about who took care of 15mo daughter on January 15 and 16 and what times?
 
January 15 is when she had her well-baby appointment, correct?  What time was the appointment?
 
Was there anything unusual that happened to 15mo daughter on either of those days?
 
She got immunizations on January 15 at the appointment, didn't she?
 
Where on her body did she get the shots?
 
Did 15mo daughter have a bath or baths either of those two days?
 
If so, who gave her the bath or baths?
 
Do you remember exactly when the bath or baths were?
 
Blaming target of stbex (me)

Stbex never replied, typical of her.  She is completely uncooperative in every way unless it is to her personal advantage to cooperate.  Even then, if she can hurt me, she might still not cooperate.

Anyway, this roommate was supposedly a retired nurse.  Looking into NIH (National Institutes of Health) documents on MSBP, I saw:

     The parent is often involved in a health-care field, such as nursing.

Moreover, the roommate said a number of fairly weird things.  In particular, it appears from her own statements that she lost custody of her 5 daughters around 1980 or 1981 and then moved from New York to California.  If this is what happened, it is highly unusual (especially in upstate New York nearly 30 years ago) unless she was found to be an unfit mother because she was not safe for her daughters.  She said a number of very odd things such as comments about vaccine injections causing symptoms that were consistent with first degree burns from scalding on 15mo daughter's bottom. 
 
Any competent nurse would know that vaccine injections do not cause symptoms like those that were present including smooth bright pink coloration over most of 15mo daughter's bottom, sharp color changes across the highly regular borders, an absence of color and intensity variation in the pink zone, and the subsequent fungal and pseudomonas aeruginosa infections.  (In case you don't know, pseudomonas aeruginosa tends to infect burns and other wounds.)  Moreover, the roommate made this comment when 15mo daughter was being returned to her, and if the scalding or rash or whatever it was (scalding is still the best match for the symptoms) had occurred when she was taking care of 15mo (I found out later that roommate had been providing childcare for over a month with notification to me, the lack of notification to me of a childcare provider being one of stbex's many violations of court order), then it makes sense why she would try to cover it up.  If it had occured while stbex was taking care of 15mo, then it seems unlikely that the roommate would have even seen the scalding and doubly unlikely she would be making excuses like that for stbex.  Frankly, if the roommate really did lose custody of her children, maybe she thought injuring 15mo could do stbex a favor if it was manipulated in the right way.  Stbex may not even understand this, even though I raised questions about this type of thing months ago in the above e-mail to her.  The severe medical care problems started shortly after the roommate showed up and ended shortly before she left.  The roommate stopped coming to exchanges shortly after a comment I made to her about why it was necessary to have photographic and/or video documentation of anything to do with exchanges (I said something about photographs being necessary when one is dealing with a person who probably has a Borderline Personality Disorder).  The roommate then acted like she thought I was talking about her when in fact I was talking about stbex.  Given the comment and her reaction, it tends to suggest that maybe the roommate thought she had been "found out" in regards to some secret she doesn't want revealed, for instance perhaps she lost custody of her daughters because she was diagnosed with a mental illness and found to be an unsafe mother.
 
The roommate may have also been misleading stbex about medical care for our daughters, although that still doesn't explain why stbex outright lied about their medical care.  Stbex is easily influenced by others for no rational reason.  This is a personality trait she has had for years.  Maybe it makes her susceptible to being misled by others who do not have her best interests in mind.

[ForeverDad]

Somebody on this web site mentioned Münchhausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSBP) as a possible explanation for all the things that have gone wrong...

Was it me?  I didn't think I had posted anything here about Münchhausen's Syndrome by Proxy, but my attorney had brought it up with me in the past couple weeks regarding information submitted to update the custody evaluator (MSBP not mentioned in that letter) and events at the hearing with the judge.

It is a chronic form of factitious disorder.  One of my complaints was repeated hospital visits alleging abuse, exaggerating minor ailments.  Also, reporting extremely high temperatures but medical records found only minor fevers when she brought him in.  I guess she just had to be Mother of the Year (MOTY) but she makes herself sound so... innocent. :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabricated_or_Induced_Illness

I'm glad you're at least getting things sorted out and making some sense of it all.

[blondie]

I did, at least one, maybe two times.
With the symptoms and injuries you are describing, and the medical care sought, I think it is a very rational thing to check into, and you are.

So, have the ONLY injuries you have noticed been while the room mate was living there? Totally and completely all of them?

Something to think about. Munchausens also says one of the most common persons to do this is someone with a mental illness, and one of the two or three specifically listed is Borderline Personality Disorder.

Their mother went off and left them in the care of the room mate for a month? And you werent notified...I'd be hysterical finding out that tidbit of information.

Pat