Identification of cause of facial injuries

[Think About It...]

Your probably going to have to bite your own lip around the kids and handle this with some real finesse so as not to accidentally do any damage.

This may sound very wierd but sometimes I see or feel things when I see photographs.

One time at a new clients house,I saw a picture on their wall of a little boy looking over a mountian range. I was just getting ready to ask the client what range it was because I thought I had been there before. But just then something told me not to because I felt that little boy was no longer with us.  Later I did ask and they said the name of the range and said that also that was the last pictuer taken of their grandson because he had died a week later.

The picture of your little girl disturbed me to look at. It was something about the expression on her face,like you could almost see inside.

I haven't a clue what she was thinking or why..could have been it just made her feel wierd...I don't know.  I just want to say for some reason to back off just in terms of their involvement in knowing why these are being taken.

To stay on your toes but somehow remove them from this mix till its found out whats really up if anything.

werid I know hugh :P

this is one of those things where if there is even a shred of truth to it that you need to find out but at the same time the best prayer answered is that your dead wrong.

[garyw]

Your probably going to have to bite your own lip around the kids and handle this with some real finesse so as not to accidentally do any damage.

This may sound very wierd but sometimes I see or feel things when I see photographs.

One time at a new clients house,I saw a picture on their wall of a little boy looking over a mountian range. I was just getting ready to ask the client what range it was because I thought I had been there before. But just then something told me not to because I felt that little boy was no longer with us.  Later I did ask and they said the name of the range and said that also that was the last pictuer taken of their grandson because he had died a week later.

The picture of your little girl disturbed me to look at. It was something about the expression on her face,like you could almost see inside.

I haven't a clue what she was thinking or why..could have been it just made her feel wierd...I don't know.  I just want to say for some reason to back off just in terms of their involvement in knowing why these are being taken.

To stay on your toes but somehow remove them from this mix till its found out whats really up if anything.

werid I know hugh :P

this is one of those things where if there is even a shred of truth to it that you need to find out but at the same time the best prayer answered is that your dead wrong.

[blondie]

Teeth are in an arc shape. Not a straight line as this bruise is. Licking and "burning the lips" from the constant licking is also in a slight arc shape and covers the entire surface from mouth edge of lip to outer reach of the tongue.. It would be all but impossible, from what I know, that a child could suck on a lip, not have it show in the arc shape, much less not have the entire area bruised or chapped from the sucking.
Suck your own lip as far as you can into your mouth...its in an arc, right? And any damage from the sucking or even being hit with the lip in the mouth would be an arc. Being hit with an object from the outside could easily cause a straight bruise, plus the damage to the bottom lip. Hit across the mouth with the side of a hand? A toy? Hard to tell. I just dont believe it is a self induced injury.

What is also greatly disturbing me is your report in the link you gave of the smaller child having burns on the bottom that appeared to be scalding...and burns on her legs. I have seen diaper rash where the baby was left in wet diapers for so long the entire bottom area to the top of the diaper, front and back appeared scalded...and its exactly that, urine scalds. It is usually all the area the diaper covers. OR, a baby being left in a feces soiled diaper for a long time will have a burn appearing area on the bottom and up the back area. It takes a several hours to cause this unless the baby has diahrrhea and is still left in a soiled diaper.

Good grief, man, an undiagnosable bruise on a top lip and damaged bottom lip are bad enough. Burns on an 18mo legs?
Toddlers fall, they get bruises and scrapes, usually on forehead, elbows and knees. NOT burns on their legs. I know at the Clinic where I worked in Pediatrics, I would joke with the mothers about the forehead and knee bruises, small ones, and that the baby was learning to walk. At 18 mo, I would expect to see more scrapes from falling. NOT burns.

Keep doing all you can for your children. Help them in any way you are able.
Start you a journal if you dont have one. Document any and all instances, pictures are great. When anything out of the ordinary happens, document the time date place and any quotes from ex, children, and the emotional reactions. Get a recorder for your phone, and record all phone conversations with their mother. Do all you can to be proactive for these little girls. If possible, get a phone that is able to take videos.

I know you are trying so hard to protect them. Sometimes gathering your own evidence is about the only way you can get attention to the harm being done.
Please do read of all the fathers that have won custody of their children. It is possible!

I wish you all the luck needed, and God bless you and the children,
Pat

[Rose]

My niece used to "lip smack" a lot, and it would cause a red mark to appear above the lips, like this.  But, my niece would do it all the time -- it was just a little habit, at a younger age.  I think if it were lip smacking, you'd see the consistent behavior leading up to it.

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[hestia]

Hi protect my children,

It's hard for me to tell from the photo, but is it more a bruise, or is it rashy, like it's chafed?
It looks oddly like a rash I got once when I put hair remover (Nair) meant for legs on my upper lip.
Could her mom do that, and she got into it, trying to be like mommy? Or could she have put something else there? Maybe now she's worried she might get into trouble for doing something she shouldn't have?

I have a mischevous little girl with sensitive skin, and she's gotten some pretty strange rashes. She's also gotten rashes from rubbing too hard with a washcloth trying to get a Kool-Aid mustache off.

I am not saying you shouldn't investigate abuse - however, little kids can get into a lot of stuff.

[ForeverDad]

Did I read earlier where the authorities thought it looked like sucking or suction damage to the lip?  Long and narrow reminded me of a vacuum's crevice tool.  Or, going along with Gary's bumps research, a suction device with little holes?  Or a swinging brush with very few bristles?  (I have furniture that is "aged" by someone at the factory having swung a steel brush which punches holes in the wood surface, mimicking age.)  Anyway, those are the only remote ideas to  come to mind.  Hmm, maybe mild chemical burns/reaction?

[Sissy]

This is a totally uneducated guess...and perhaps someone has already suggested this, but when I first saw the photo, it looked to me like a mark that would come if she had been smacked on the mouth with the brush side of a hairbrush. 

But it could as easily be chapped lips, too.  My kids sometimes get awfully blistered chapped lips, especially when they have a fever.

I wouldn't stress too much over it, unless there are other indications besides these marks.  Your daughter may not be able to explain it, because if it is just from something "normal" like chapping, in her view there wouldn't have been a "cause". 

I hope it turns out to be nothing.  I think, as others have said, that you have to be watchful, but also careful that you don't make too big a deal out of it to your daughter.

Best of luck,

Sissy

[blondie]

Please, address the mention of burns on the legs of the younger child you mentioned in the link.

I really would like to know more about those, and their appearance.

Pat

[protectmychildren]

Please, address the mention of burns on the legs of the younger child you mentioned in the link.

I really would like to know more about those, and their appearance.

Pat

The burns were on the legs of the older child and the finger of the younger child.  There is a new injury on the wrist of the younger child that might be a burn a few days old, but I am not sure.  It looks like it has slight blistering in the center of the injury zone, so that is why I think it might be a burn, but it could be a bruise, also.

The burns on the legs of the older child are claimed to have been from being burned on the tailpipe of their mother's BMW station wagon.  After the first time this happened, my daughter was super-conscious of tailpipes and pointed out my car has two of them.  So I believe the first time that probably is what happened.  I don't know about the second time for sure, nothing was said by the mother about it.

The finger burn on my younger daughter was claimed by the stbexUBPD mother to have been from her touching a hot pan.  This may be true, but I don't understand what the mother was thinking holding the child in one arm while handling hot pans to unload food from them with the other arm.  She should know that kids have a tendency to reach out and grab things their parents are touching, so I think this is at least neglectful although probably not intentional.

Will try to post more later as my younger daughter has woken up now,

[protectmychildren]

She found her mother's bong?  ?

So far as I know, her mother has never used illegal drugs.  Her addictions seem to be more things like extreme exercise, meditation, and apparently lately becoming a born-again Christian.

She seems very easily influenced by others with little rational reason or ability to explain why.  That is one of the traits of HPD, and she has some other traits of it, too.   But not enough I think to satisfy the criteria.  Same for NPD.  But BPD and APD seem like dead-on matches for her.  I wonder how common it is for BPD and APD to be co-morbid?

[protectmychildren]

You seem very involved and maybe you should be...i hope not. i hope your wife/x wife is totally innocent.

I still wouldnt involve a 3 or 4 year old in what the shots are for. Of course they will prob say its ok and they understand.I just think (and I'm no expert) that these areas are way too much for common everyday conversation and involvment with a parent.

Tricky spot you are in. You don't want to just turn your head away but don't want to create what may be nothing or almost nothing into something.

The kids don't know the purpose of the pictures, and don't ask, either.  I try to get many of them in natural settings, such as playing in the park.  But it is really hard to take good pictures of some of things that happen.  For instance, a week or so ago my 1.5 year old looked like she had another burn on her wrist.  The central area looked blistered and the skin around it was discolored.  No scab like an abrasion usually has.  All the affected skin felt rough.  I don't know if it is a burn or not, but it doesn't look like a typical bruise or abrasion.  So burn is the best guess.  Taking a picture of that is impossible without holding her arm in a position where I can see it.

I also like to have plenty of pictures that can be used to prove when injuries probably occurred.  I'm tired of being blamed for things that I did not do, and don't want to end up getting charged with some crime over an injury that didn't even occur while the girls were in my custody.

[protectmychildren]

After seeing the photo, it reminds me of when my son when he was young. He used to chew on his upper lip and lower lip. It was a nervous habit he did. His dad was emotionally and physically abusive with him, and he would get this all around his lips where it was absolutely chapped so badly after visitations.  He did it to try and comfort himself.  Your little girl may be doing the same thing, the emotional turmoil needs a release.

From my own experience with chapped skin, it should feel rough.  This injury did not feel like that.  The skin was smooth.  So that seems to lean towards some kind of injury other than chapping or an abrasion.  Since there was never any scab, that also leans against an abrasion.  No central blister area, so burn seems to be not likely, either.  Hence the best guess is a bruise from impact or suction.

[protectmychildren]

Teeth are in an arc shape. Not a straight line as this bruise is. Licking and "burning the lips" from the constant licking is also in a slight arc shape and covers the entire surface from mouth edge of lip to outer reach of the tongue.. It would be all but impossible, from what I know, that a child could suck on a lip, not have it show in the arc shape, much less not have the entire area bruised or chapped from the sucking.
Suck your own lip as far as you can into your mouth...its in an arc, right? And any damage from the sucking or even being hit with the lip in the mouth would be an arc. Being hit with an object from the outside could easily cause a straight bruise, plus the damage to the bottom lip. Hit across the mouth with the side of a hand? A toy? Hard to tell. I just dont believe it is a self induced injury.

I don't think it is self-induced.  Usually she explains anything self-induced right away without hesitation.

What is also greatly disturbing me is your report in the link you gave of the smaller child having burns on the bottom that appeared to be scalding...and burns on her legs. I have seen diaper rash where the baby was left in wet diapers for so long the entire bottom area to the top of the diaper, front and back appeared scalded...and its exactly that, urine scalds. It is usually all the area the diaper covers. OR, a baby being left in a feces soiled diaper for a long time will have a burn appearing area on the bottom and up the back area. It takes a several hours to cause this unless the baby has diahrrhea and is still left in a soiled diaper.

The older child has had the burns on her legs.  The younger one had a definite burn on her finger from something -- it was claimed to be a hot pan that was in reach because of the mother handling her and hot pans at the same time.  An accident I think, but seems irresponsible to be putting hot pans in the obvious reaching range of a 1.5 year old.  And a week or so ago, she had another injury that looks and feels like a burn, this time on her wrist.  No explanation was forthcoming.  The older child says she has no idea, and the mother said nothing.  I asked her lawyer -- no reply.

The initial "diaper rash" had boundaries that were very distinct.  Were the boundaries on the one from urine burns distinct and sharp or irregular and gradual?  As far as I know, the chemical burns from urine or poop with something unusual in it should not have distinct and sharp boundaries or regular edges.

Good grief, man, an undiagnosable bruise on a top lip and damaged bottom lip are bad enough. Burns on an 18mo legs?
Toddlers fall, they get bruises and scrapes, usually on forehead, elbows and knees. NOT burns on their legs. I know at the Clinic where I worked in Pediatrics, I would joke with the mothers about the forehead and knee bruises, small ones, and that the baby was learning to walk. At 18 mo, I would expect to see more scrapes from falling. NOT burns.

Both kids get the typical bruises and scrapes.  These do not worry me.  I get worried when the injury is weird and the explanation is either totally blocked or sounds strange.  "It's paint" obviously does not explain a bruise.  Also, I thought it was weird that one of the facial injuries was accompanied by an explanation from a not-quite-4-year-old as happening as the "car dealership" whereas normally she calls it the "car fixing place".  Maybe she was coached.  It doesn't mean the explanation was false, obviously, but so far the mother has refused to produce the claimed note from the car dealership that she showed to the preschool, and the preschool didn't retain a copy.  If it was me and I had a legitimate note, I would produce it so as to end as suspicion or questions immediately.  If it was a fake note, I would figure that out.  Maybe that is why she won't produce a copy and didn't have the preschool keep it or a copy.

Keep doing all you can for your children. Help them in any way you are able.
Start you a journal if you dont have one. Document any and all instances, pictures are great. When anything out of the ordinary happens, document the time date place and any quotes from ex, children, and the emotional reactions. Get a recorder for your phone, and record all phone conversations with their mother. Do all you can to be proactive for these little girls. If possible, get a phone that is able to take videos.

I know you are trying so hard to protect them. Sometimes gathering your own evidence is about the only way you can get attention to the harm being done.
Please do read of all the fathers that have won custody of their children. It is possible!

I do keep a journal, but it is hard to have time to write in it every day.  Almost every day something weird or odd happens.  Today my 4 year old was talking about how her mother doesn't want her to talk with me and that she is going to tell her mother to let me call her.  On the one hand, this is what the court orders say and I do think it seems reasonable to talk with her on the phone once or twice during the 5 day periods that pass without her and her sister with me.  But I am concerned that she could trigger an attack on herself.

[protectmychildren]

The picture of your little girl disturbed me to look at. It was something about the expression on her face,like you could almost see inside.

I haven't a clue what she was thinking or why..could have been it just made her feel wierd...I don't know.  I just want to say for some reason to back off just in terms of their involvement in knowing why these are being taken.

She was very unhappy that day.  Her mother was making the child custody exchange very difficult, refusing to turn over her younger sister.  I ended up calling the police to enforce it, but before they arrived she turned them both over and I called off the police.  This was probably good because it looks like she waited around for the police to show up to try to spin some story about me being a problem.  This was also 9 days after she tried to frame my father for battery and child endangerment, and about a week after she threatened to bother me for the rest of my life unless I sign over all my parental rights to her.  My daughter probably heard about some of this stuff, maybe even heard her mother telling the police officers lies about her grandfather.  Sometime around then she was making comments about "mommy wants you to go to jail" and stuff like that.

As far as I know, they don't know why the pictures are being taken.  I have not told them anything more than for one picture it was to pass along to mommy to communicate the latest state of the younger one's diaper rash as she needed to know this in order to follow the doctor's orders about bringing her back in if it didn't improve in 3 to 4 days while I didn't have custody.  They have never asked anything about any of the pictures.

Police and CPS people need a lot more training on DSM-IV Axis 2 Cluster B personality disorders.  The people who have them are often such good liars, and for BPD they are often women.  Given the already nearly universal belief caused by the women's rights movement that men are evil scum who obviously abuse women and women never lie, men are basically guilty and cannot be proven innocent if a woman claims abuse or harassment.  I'm all for women having equal rights, but the fact is right now they have superior rights to men in areas that can destroy men's lives, and some of them are sick enough to use this to destroy their ex-husbands or ex-boyfriends.

[protectmychildren]

My niece used to "lip smack" a lot, and it would cause a red mark to appear above the lips, like this.  But, my niece would do it all the time -- it was just a little habit, at a younger age.  I think if it were lip smacking, you'd see the consistent behavior leading up to it.

No consistent behavior like this.  Since her preschool staff, grandparents, and me have all never seen her lip smack except when we were trying to play a game to see if anybody could touch their noses with their lower lip (this was to try to understand the injury, but she didn't know this), she has never lipsmacked to our knowledge.  Hence the explanation seems implausible given this and the nature of the injury.

[protectmychildren]

Hi protect my children,

It's hard for me to tell from the photo, but is it more a bruise, or is it rashy, like it's chafed?
It looks oddly like a rash I got once when I put hair remover (Nair) meant for legs on my upper lip.
Could her mom do that, and she got into it, trying to be like mommy? Or could she have put something else there? Maybe now she's worried she might get into trouble for doing something she shouldn't have?

I have a mischevous little girl with sensitive skin, and she's gotten some pretty strange rashes. She's also gotten rashes from rubbing too hard with a washcloth trying to get a Kool-Aid mustache off.

I am not saying you shouldn't investigate abuse - however, little kids can get into a lot of stuff.

The skin felt smooth, not rough.  So it seems like a bruise.  She doesn't tend to get rashes.  Neither did the younger daughter until we suspect she was scalded in mid-January but we were too stupid to realize it was probably a scald at the time.  Part of what is so frustrating about dealing with their uBPD/APD/whatever mother is that it is like you have to start to thinking in some twisted unnatural way to consider what could be happening.  I find this hard to do, but it is getting easier as I see more and more examples of it against which I have to defend against.

Her mother seldom wears make-up.

[protectmychildren]

Did I read earlier where the authorities thought it looked like sucking or suction damage to the lip?  Long and narrow reminded me of a vacuum's crevice tool.  Or, going along with Gary's bumps research, a suction device with little holes?  Or a swinging brush with very few bristles?  (I have furniture that is "aged" by someone at the factory having swung a steel brush which punches holes in the wood surface, mimicking age.)  Anyway, those are the only remote ideas to  come to mind.  Hmm, maybe mild chemical burns/reaction?

Yes, the medical exam mentioned it looked like it might have been suction but didn't explain why.  I asked her about stuff like kissing an alligator, putting her mouth in a vacuum cleaner, etc.  She said none of that happened.  From what I understand of questioning kids, you can't push them in one direction and have to give them a lot of options.  Ideally, don't suggest any answer at all.  But if she doesn't talk, I suggest really silly answers to see if that will get her to open up.   

Do you think a hairbrush could do that with its little bristles?  I would have thought there would be more bristle impact points.  I guess it depends upon the brush.

[protectmychildren]

This is a totally uneducated guess...and perhaps someone has already suggested this, but when I first saw the photo, it looked to me like a mark that would come if she had been smacked on the mouth with the brush side of a hairbrush. 

Seems like a possibility.  Not sure how this would cause the injury inside the lower mouth, however.  Maybe her mouth was open when it happened?  However, if so, then why would her mother claim lip smacking unless it was intentionally done?

But it could as easily be chapped lips, too.  My kids sometimes get awfully blistered chapped lips, especially when they have a fever.

So far as I can recall, she was not sick around that time, and the skin didn't feel rough or stiff like happens with my own lips when they are chapped.

I wouldn't stress too much over it, unless there are other indications besides these marks.  Your daughter may not be able to explain it, because if it is just from something "normal" like chapping, in her view there wouldn't have been a "cause". 

I hope it turns out to be nothing.  I think, as others have said, that you have to be watchful, but also careful that you don't make too big a deal out of it to your daughter.

It very well could be a legitimate accidental injury.  It doesn't "feel" like this given the overall context and other information, however.  If she really didn't know what the cause was, why would she start right away after I wiped it with a wet towel (thinking it was juice residue) with talking about it being "paint"?

The kids get a lot of injuries when with their mother.  Even one day with their mother, they often come back with many bandages and bruises.  This doesn't happen when they are with me for 2 days at a time, so something different is happening with them when they are with their mother.

[happytobedivorced]

So sorry you and your children are in this situation. You are staying on top of things and being very observant and cautious. I applaud you for that. My first instinct when I saw the pictures and read your post was that your daughter maybe doing something out of nervousness and anxiety. My son had been licking his lips when he was faced with certain situations that made him nervous and the licking caused a slight case of impetigo along with the irritated skin. He was hardly aware he was doing it and I actually never saw him do it.

I wish you and your girls the best. Give them all a hug!

[protectmychildren]

So sorry you and your children are in this situation. You are staying on top of things and being very observant and cautious. I applaud you for that. My first instinct when I saw the pictures and read your post was that your daughter maybe doing something out of nervousness and anxiety. My son had been licking his lips when he was faced with certain situations that made him nervous and the licking caused a slight case of impetigo along with the irritated skin. He was hardly aware he was doing it and I actually never saw him do it.

I wish you and your girls the best. Give them all a hug!

Thanks.

I definitely do not want to be accusing anybody of anything inaccurately.  If I make inaccurate statements, then I'd just be doing the same kind of garbage my stbex is doing.  And it's no good to do that.  So it's like I have to walk a fine line on trying to make sure the kids are protected while at the same time not hurting my stbex unnecessarily.  She doesn't worry about the fine line.  I guess that is part of the "no boundaries" issue for BPs.

[blondie]

So. After all the posts you have done, please go back and read them as a non-involved person, just read.

Your children are being physically abused from all you say. I dont see how much of anyone could come to a different conclusion.

Tell the little ones you want to take a picture of the 'ouchies'. If they are like most little kids, they love to show off ouchies and get the attention and will be more than glad for you to.

Sometine in the future, before your children are severely physically harmed, if you dont consider bruising and burning to be severe, you are going to have to be pro-active for those poor little kids.

Some adult needs to be. Any child does not deserve to be hit, burned, or abused. Period.

You can help them, if you choose to admit what is happening before your eyes. How many ways can you find excuses for the injuries over and over and over?

Quit hiding from what you see and help them. Only you can, she only abuses them from all you are relating. Be a good parent, be there for your girls and help them to not be harmed and hit and burned.

Pat