PERSPECTIVES: Is it better for the kids if I stay or leave?

[JoannaK]

This topic has come up many times over the years, of course, and I just read posts by Methos and Worm and felt that it needs to be discussed again.

So I would urge those of your with kids, both who have left and who have stayed, to ponder the following issues and to post similar issues pertinent to this topic.  (Some are similar questions worded slightly differently):

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a bpd/npd parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?

6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?

4.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have?

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)...  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

[Peace4us]

Great discussion topic JK

My children were a huge motivator for me to leave their dad. I was adamant that I would not teach my children that how their father treated me was how a woman should be treated.  I stood up for myself. I have not once regretted my decision. There are many difficulties with the two households and my children are aware of the animosity between mom and dad, I can't help that.

I figure it is much better in the pro category that they have the life they do with me for the majority of the time. Their dad is financially and responsibility challenged. What I provide for them with my SO would never have been possible had I stayed.

Emotionally, spiritually, physically they are so much better off now.

I like the line Dr. Phil refers to. Its often better for kids to come from broken homes than to live in them. Their lives would be much more difficult if I stayed. Limited dad contact allows for him to be on best behaviour for the most part. They are with him EOW and 4 weeks thru the year. Considering his place is a one bedroom basement apartment in the roughest neighbourhoods in our province, thats enough. (yes my children sleep on a futon couch and cot in the living room of the apt)

Making the choice to stay or leave I can appreciate is a very difficult one. I know for most men, that it must be almost unbearable to giv up seeing their children every day. I take that and try so hard to have empathy for my exh, however the more I give, the more compassionate I am, the worse he treats me and in front of the kids too. SO I try to detach as much as I can.

All of my decisions and actions stem from my desire to do what is best for the kids. They are worth it and thankfully I can say they are terrific children, well adjusted, loving, confident, sweet and healthy.

Peace4us

[Painful]

JK,
answer to #9, yes that is my fear.  I answer as a man who is still undecided and trying to get myself together.  my wife is financially and responsibility challenged.  but when it comes to the kids, they are 'hers' and ' will never take them from her!'
I have resolved that whatever haPpens, I will cherrish the time I spend with them and make the most of it.

otp

[elphaba]

I wholeheartedly agree with the saying

Its often better for kids to come from broken homes than to live in them

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a bpd/npd parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

Yeah, I think that watching a parent walk on eggshells/take abuse is much more damaging than the divorce...

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)...  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?

My mind has been on this exact subject lately, mostly due to the drastic improvement in my youngest daughter.  She had a really hard time dealing with stuff when DB was living in the house and in full bpd mode...I know he does not have any clue to the damage done when it comes to her...he thinks that just because they were close once, and because his anger/rage was directed at her sisters and me, not her, that he is still idolized by her.

She is doing so so much better now, happier, has friends over more, free to be herself, less emotional outbursts and with me and her...lots more talking/hugging/hanging out...absolutely the right decision in my case to divorce.


8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations? What I regret is not getting out earlier, before he made things so hard on the older two...the marriage became more and more strained as the girls got older, asserted their independence...only made him rage worse, react worse, behave worse...and he still blames them.  The health problems my oldest daughter is still dealing with go back to all of it, he forced her out of the house, resulting in her quitting college...she will likely never go back, her life is FOREVER changed because I STAYED...she had gotten into one of the toughest schools in the northeast (a kid who had been through homelessness, living in the worst of circumstances, accepted at a top school, darn).  Her dreams, put off because of this.

So, my advice to parents on the fence...before irepairable damage is done, think...think about what kind of life you want for your kids...

My relationship with each of my girls has improved since the split, their attitudes and level of respect for me has improved...they have watched as I escaped a relationship that was causing me such pain, they are watching now as I heal and rediscover myself...they watch as I become stronger...they are as proud of me as I am of them.

[doc101]

I grew up in a happy home. My parents loved me, my siblings, and each other. They still do. What I wanted for my children was the same environment that I grew up in. I made a mistake in who I married.

I came to the conclusion that I did not have a choice. I had to divorce my wife. NO other option. As I saw it... if I stayed in the marriage my kids would grow up warped and abused. I was seeing it happen at very young ages and I felt that the abuse/neglect would only get worse through the years. I saw my kids growing up hating me and having idenity problems because of their mother. I saw them growing up in therapy, on psych meds. Not to mention I did not think they would be able to grow up and know me as the happy/optimist I view myself as...I was becomming bitter and was walking down a road where affairs would have been in my future...not an environment that would be conducive to teaching my kids what a man/father is about...not to mention what a woman/mother should be like...I knew  they'd never see that from their mother.

I figured if I asked for a divorce and she got the kids the kids would end up in therapy on meds and in general screwed up...But I also never really saw my wife taking the kind of responsability to raise the kids and if she got them initially I figured in time I would get them back.

For me the decision was absolute...Having children grow up wittnessing abuse or being abused should never be considered a legitamate option...IMHO when it is rationalized it's a cop out, period.  The Foremost responsability of parents is protection of their kids, mentally and physically.

Studies unless done scientifically are flawed and can be biased easily by the opinions of those doing the study. Likely studies that show kids happier in married homes are not taking into account PDs, alcoholism, drug abuse, battered women, etc...From the shear volume of divorces in the USA the studies would suggest broken homes are not as happy because most divorces are not involving PDs...Ask a kid how it makes them feel when dad comes home drunk and beats mom...There are reasons for divorce...good ones...absolute reasons...There are also reasons for reconciliation..two good parents that have drifted apart, have kids, still feel for one another but quit communicating somewhere along the way...those people should do all they can to "work it out"...but that is not the typical situation on these boards...For those of you questioning staying...Go read the accounts of the kids who grew up in homes with BPD parents.

I fought for my kids and I have custody. I'd do it again. My kids are very young 1yo, 2yo, and 4yo. My 4yo has some issues he is in therapy for...But since X has been out of the house I can tell a major difference in him. He is much happier. He is playing better with his siblings. He is less angry. My home feels like a totally different place. I enjoy going home. There is no tension. There is no chaos. I'll have to keep you all posted on how they grow up...But I can promise this...They now have a better chance at growing up normal and happy.

[LEO]

if I knew ten years ago what was to come Id have left for the kids .If the kids are targets staying for there benefit is ludicrous ,denial and a selfish excuse

[ardnax]

Great questions that I ponder every day.

I stayed as long as I could because I knew that once I left, I would have no idea what was really going on in the paternal household.  Our kids had just turned 6 and 3 when I moved out.  I am doing SO much better myself to be out of there, and yes, I do worry about how it is for them during the time they are there.

It's been about 20 months, and we have been doing 50/50 most of the time.  He doesn't work (permanent disability) and I work full time.  This has been the worst part.  He does the child care during the summer and school holidays, and it sucks for the kids.  He is often sick in bed all morning, has anger management issues, is socially isolated, depressed, etc.  There have also been three times now when he has taken off two to four weeks with varying amounts of notice - basically fallen off the planet in terms of parenting.  And I have to scramble and take time off work and figure out how to manage.

I don't think the 50/50 arrangement is the best for the kids, and he refuses to consider any other.  We are doing a "collaborative process" divorce (can a BPD ever truly collaborate?), and finally making some progress toward getting a sort of psych and custody evaluation to get outside input on his mental health and what is best for the kids.

Some days I wonder if I should have stayed.  But whenever I mention that to any of my friends or family, they help me put it into perspective.  I am so much healthier and doing well in my life as a result of being out of there, and the kids benefit greatly from that.  Yes, I worry about what really goes on over there (it's like having 3 kids living by themselves and I can never trust what any of them tells me).  This will change as the kids get older.  And already I am seeing how they don't completely respect their dad and question his judgment and mental health in their own young ways.

I have read that children of divorce do fine as long as one parent is stable.  That is what keeps me thinking I made the right choice.  If I had stayed, they would not have experienced a happy and harmonious household.  And now I am in a healthy relationship with a man who is a great father, so they are even seeing how adults can have positive communication and men can be good parents.

I have also talked to adults who say they wished their parents had divorced, that living in a broken home was awful.  

As soon as we became parents together, I realized that it would not be the partnership I was hoping for and that he had promised.  So I am used to being the responsible parent.  My moving out has allowed me to do a better job.  In other words, I was and always will take on the majority of the parenting repsonsibility, and now I know that I can do it from a healthy and strong state of mind, which will greatly benefit the kids in the long run.

[At_Bay]

I think my son would have benefitted from my being honest with him. Not candid or becoming critical of his father, but honest about my h and I being happier and not having as many problems if we lived at different places. Sharing things he was doing, but not responsible for each other any more. Trying to fake it or saying nothing at all when there were signs of stress seems to have made him a very careful and guarded person. There isn't anyone more pragmatic than he, and I've said before that I wish he'd loosen up, but fatherhood hasn't done it and he has more things to keep track of now.

It is hard to explain, but here are two examples that may sound silly, but he worries me:

Ex. 1) His wife, 5 mo. old, and MIL in town from AZ go shopping for the day. When they get home, per my DIL, he asks if they fed the baby. (No, they were laughing and buying stuff and didn't notice her--what kind of question is that?) I feel personally responsible that he keeps track of everything under the sun and thinks if he doesn't, no one else will.

Ex. 2) I'm going to give the baby a bottle and he tells me not to stop and burp her as she is not eating well and sometimes won't drink the last half of bottle. So I start the bottle and then have to take it out of her mouth! He is standing there watching me (to see if I do it right, probably), and so he asks why did you take it out, Mom, and I said because milk was pouring out of her mouth. He actually told me not to take it out unless she was gagging. I wanted to say that he must be joking, but didn't and she took ALL of the bottle, without problem.

But most of all, I should not have put myself through this, and the kind of decent man he is, he wouldn't have wanted me to do so. Things that shouldn't be happening should be stopped. I thought I'd made an absolute decision to remain a "close" family and I immediately began compromising my values, self-esteem and strengths, and I think not realizing a family cannot be made under those kinds of circumstances because lies breed a feeling of uneasiness. You have it or you don't.

All that time and it was just a long struggle and nothing more. Just looking like an intact family isn't very rewarding in the end. The fallout is real however. I felt dishonest and part of the problem, but I could have made him a deal that I'd get a divorce and keep all his secrets. If he gave me a bad time over it, I'd tell everything I'd seen and ask that the divorce be sealed.

My son is a good husband and proud father, has a responsible job, several degrees, and feels close to me and my h. I don't know what he would have experienced with his Dad alone, although his Dad was always kind and generous to him, but he would have had a different mother than the one he had, and that's what was needed. At any point I could have changed my mind, so I don't believe the decision to stay is absolute. I've found life to be full of change anyway and staying won't prevent other very unpleasant experiences if the decision is like mine was--to stay. No one should be that unhappy and I taught my son life was about being very, very careful.

AB

[Bailey]

Great topic.

I stayed and stayed with my ex husband, thought I was doing the right thing for my children.  But when I finally left him (my kids were 19, 17 and 13) I realized I had been wrong. 

My children watched me endure cruelty and meanness and craziness --- they watched me cry so often -- and my daughters watched me take crap for all those years.  It wasn't until I left that I realized that it was actually better for the children to see me be strong and get out and stop taking the crap. 

I was so scared they would be ruined by my leaving -- yeah, well, all 3 of them have significant others now 5 years later (one's engaged), they have good jobs or are still in school -- they're okay, they really are, in fact I'm amazed by how okay they are!

marymac

[NewLifeforHGG]

I come from both sides of the story. My father has NPD and I married a BNPD.
I remember very well the day my heart broke and I don't believe it ever mended properly. I was a teenager and my mother was going to leave my father. Even though I was 19 I still felt a huge sense of relief. Finally, I thought, I will have a quiet peaceful home to come to during breaks from college. My mother was going to once and for all choose her children over the raging alcoholic sadistic lunatic who made day to day living hell. Or so I thought. I helped her find an apartment and I begged and begged her to make sure he never came back. 2 days later she forgave him. It wasn't only that he had been so cruel growing up it was that in one event he had finally exposed himself to her. She found out he had been cheating and I had found the other woman in my childhood home wearing my mother's clothes.
So in my mind for the final time she had chosen him over the health of her children. A little piece of me died that day. I learned what it means to be trapped, all alone and I learned that as a human being I wasn't worth much. As much as I hated my father...I hated her more. Yes. I hated them. I hated their selfishness and their weakness. I hated that they forced four children to endure their sick codependent relationship. I remember looking out of the back door and looking at the sparkling water of the swimming pool and thinking that my own mother sold me down the river for a stupid swimming pool.
After that I was running all of the time. Escaping from who knows what and everything. I was never the same. Something broke and I couldn't fix it. My grandmother ,who gave me the only unconditional love I ever experienced, died so I had no refuge or sanctuary from the difficulties of life. All of my life I had watched my father abuse my mother and siblings verbally and mentally. I remember her teaching us to be good or your father will get mad or her sitting silently as she allowed us to be the targets of his rage. I felt betrayed by her inability to stand up for us and her silence was louder than his yelling.
My views on marriage and men were not very positive so I avoided them at all cost usually breaking up with a guy because I couldn't stand to get too close. I did not want anything to do with anyone like my father so when I saw something even faintly reminiscent of him I bolted. I would not let anyone close and I avoided commitment.
I was like this for a long time. When I met my stbxbpdh he seemed like a breath of fresh air.
He behaved exactly opposite of my father and I felt that at last I would have the love I so wanted and I could create for my own children what I never had. For once I was going to let down my guard and surrender to love.
Not only had I married my father, I had married someone worse who was also a chronic underachiever. I married him and got a BPDMIL in the package. NPFIL was part of the deal too.
I left my marriage because I absolutely never wanted my daughter to feel about me as I did/do about my mother. I was forced to be a mini adult on guard for trouble. There was no childhood. I watched my mother's face crumble when she was attacked and would sit and dry her tears while swallowing my own. I was helpless to save her or more importantly helpless to save myself.
But not this time. My stbx has no idea that I am fighting a battle for my daughter's life and a battle for my own. I will never be like my mother. I never want to be the cause of my daughter's heartbreak. I saw the beginnings of her changing from the happy sweet child she is into a sullen nervous angry little girl.
I will never be who I could have been had I grown up in a safe home. I could have stomached some weekends with my father if it meant 5 days a week of freedom. 5 days to breathe and be myself. I can only imagine what I could have achieved had I had confidence in my self worth.
No child deserves to be the victim of their parent's decisions. It is my duty to my child to ensure that she has chance to reach her full potential. I want her childhood to be fun and safe. I don't want her tip toing around wondering when the next bomb is going to explode.
I want to model for her what strength looks like.
I want her to see a woman who took her life back and did something meaningful with it.
So I left and I am so much better for it. I can go to sleep every night knowing that I did what was right. My life is my own. Our home is our sanctuary. She is smiling big cheesey grins again, making wry jokes(did I tell you how bright she is?) and we fall asleep on the sofa watching High School Musical for the thousandth time. None of this would have happened if I chosen to stay.

[kkce967]

My ex husband was Antisocial but there are some similarities among the PDs and a lot of the behaviors are similar. In additon, he had issues with alcohol and drugs. He was impulsive and we never had any money. My marriage bankrupted me and at the ripe old age of 27, I had two small children and a fresh bankrupcy.  I toyed with the idea of leaving and I thought long and hard about what it would do the kids for us to separate. Not to mention, I'm Catholic and traditionally, the church frowns on divorce but the more progressive churches also recognize that a marriage to someone so mentally ill that they are spiritually and emotionally unable to live the bonds of Christian marriage is by definition, not a marriage at all. Most of all, I questioned my ability to raise the kids on my own because I knew he was not be a big part of their lives going forward. One St. Patrick's Day, my ex h did what most drunks do on that day and that was the last straw for me. It occurred to me that I shouldn't even be wondering if I can do it on my own. I had been doing it all along. And like Peace, I didn't want my daughter thinking this is how a husband should treat his wife and I didn't want my son thinking this is how he should treat his either. I left my marriage and have not had one regret along the way for doing so. Ten years later, I met UdBPDx and we have a child. Though my experience with my ex husband didn't result in me having any better taste in men, I was able to recognize that this person was no one I wanted to committ my life to. I made the decision to raise our D regardless of what he decided to do.

It's been about 12 years since I left my ex H. My children have had some rough spots but, they aren't felons, they do well in school, and they are fairly well adjusted...as much as teenagers can be I guess. I can't even surmise what it would be like if I had stayed. I didn't stay for the kids. I left for the kids. My guess is that the studies about what happens to kids after divorce has less to do with the separation and more to do with the acrimony afterwards when the parents continue to fight.

I know when you're a man with a BPD wife there are different considerations. Maybe you fear the games and the manipulations and the use of the children as pawns against you, or you feel you need to police her, or you have a distrust for the legal system. I can empathize with you on that. Even with sole custody, I've had to deal with the games too and I always will to some degree as long as my D is a minor. My attorney pointed out we are a few years away from recognizing legally, PD'd parents. THere are always some clouds to the silver lining. The outcome depends largely on how you decided to handle them.

K.

[Jewls]

I stayed and stayed with my ex husband, thought I was doing the right thing for my children.  But when I finally left him (my kids were 19, 17 and 13) I realized I had been wrong. 

My children watched me endure cruelty and meanness and craziness --- they watched me cry so often -- and my daughters watched me take crap for all those years.  It wasn't until I left that I realized that it was actually better for the children to see me be strong and get out and stop taking the crap. 

I thought the kids would be better off if I stayed.  I was the product of a broken home and was raised by a BNPD single father (My sister and I were adopted.  The woman my father was married to ran away with another man when we were 2 and 3 and signed away her parental rights).  I remember the loneliness and sadness I felt as I grew up.  My father was absorbed in his teaching (professor) and research (always wanted his articles published, was determined to be a famous researcher/writer).  

I felt my children's lives would be different because at least they had a mother.  At least I was protecting them from their father's wrath, for the most part, by fielding it.  At least they were observing that their father and I had differences but we worked them out.  What a selfish way of thinking.  My children were learning that my marriage was the norm.  My children were learning that it's ok for a wife to be treated the way I was being treated.  My son was learning an unhealthy way to treat a female.  My daughters were learning that it was ok to allow another guy to treat them like crap.  

My D16, who was 14 at the time, had a boyfriend who slapped her across the face in the classroom because she was wearing another boy's jacket.  A week later, she was sneaking and calling him again.  She had forgiven him and wanted to help him.  She thought she could fix him.  I knew then that I was providing an unhappy atmosphere for the kids.  That's when I changed my thinking.

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?

My answer to this is a resounding YES.  I was absolutely positive that I wanted to leave.  I'm never one to make hasty decisions.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a bpd/npd parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

Absolutely.  I don't feel these studies are accurate due to the fact that there varying circumstances surrounding every divorce.

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)...  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?

It hasn't been easy on the kids, but I don't regret my decision for a minute.  I have become and am continuing to become a better parent.  I'm focused on them and not my unhappy marriage.  They deserve and need my attention.

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?

The friction has hurt them, but it's inevitable with a person like Stink Weed.  My consistency, stability, and strength will hopefully outweigh this eventually.  The "two homes" thing sucks, but it is what it is.  I hate that the children are victims of parallel parenting, but I can only continue to be consistent with them and hope that it will have a positive impact on them in the end.

Again, I don't regret my decision for one millisecond.  I look back now and shudder.  I'm angry at myself for not leaving sooner.  There has been some damage done to my 2 oldest.  The 2 youngest are victims of his attempts at enmeshment and parental alienation.  I knew it wouldn't be easy to leave Stinky and I would have my obstacles, but the kids and I can get through this.  My son is showing the signs of the lack of a consistent male figure in his life.  As maturity comes, he will make his own way through it.  My oldest D has some depression and anxiety issues, but she has a good therapist and a mother who is determined to make sure she has a better life.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a bpd/npd parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

I would love to see the results of a more in depth study before I can accept these results.  I can understand how kids from divorced homes have more problems in life, that's obvious, but I can't believe that those whose parents stay together have it better.  Not without knowing all the circumstances.  Look at New Life, her parents stayed and she wasn't a happy kid!

[Moving On]

I know when you're a man with a BPD wife there are different considerations. Maybe you fear the games and the manipulations and the use of the children as pawns against you, or you feel you need to police her, or you have a distrust for the legal system.

This is the only thing that is keeping me trapped in here.  My situation is different from most.  The kids don't really see her behavior towards me, but over the years I've discovered that they realize that she is "different".  They are both boys, 9 and 11 now, and I know that the older one would prefer to barely ever see her again.  The younger one is totally enmeshed.

I'm getting my ducks in a row.  Was going to file last week, but the attorney said I needed to document my time spent with the kids and to get a case set up before filing.  I should have taken everybody's advice in this regard and started this long ago, but any journaling I did was more in relation to her BPD - I needed to focus on my time with the kids and her behavior towards them.

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?  No - I considered staying "for the kids" until they were old enough to choose me, but now I realize that I need to take care of me, and THAT is the best thing for the kids, particularly when I get to see them after the D.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a bpd/npd parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?  Hell yeah, but I don't think the courts fully get it yet.

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?  It seemed like it was right for a while, but now I don't think so.

4.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?  More than I originally realized.  The older one is painted black continually, and he's really showing signs of it.  I'm feeling a bit guilty about it.

5.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have?  Me!

6.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)...  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?  We'll find out soon.

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?  The friction between us is mostly not seen by the kids.  Mostly because I just absorb it.  But she's been a horrible role model - they continually call her lazy and a butt (though that word isn't often used directly)

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?  This doesn't apply to me, but being a male, if the kids were younger, it'd be that much tougher for me to save them given the legal system.  She's a Stay At Home Mom (I hate applying that term to her - more like SAH bum)

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?  She is so high functioning, that I'm afraid that it'll probably mean that I will, unless I get a good judge.  I'm starting out by getting the best lawyer.  Money isn't an object - I'd spend myself broke to rescue them.  I even told the lawyer this - I don't care if I make him rich, just get me out of here with the kids.

I'll have to add - the successes of Mr. M and doc101 have given me the spine to give it a try.  Yes, there are other male success stories, but both of these guys came into this forum after I did, and they're both "done"... and here I sit.

[ColAbb]

I have a girlfriend that has been married for 25 years to someone diagnosed with bpd.  Her grown children have told her they wish she would have left because they hated watching her being mentally abused.  She does regret not leaving, but still hasn't gotten up the courage to leave. 

I grew up with a mentally ill step father, who was abusive to all of us.  I wished my step mom would have left, but she didn't.  He ended up in prison when I was 16.  I did turn out OK (other than being horrible at picking men) but my sister is very mentally ill (bpd, go figure) and has continued her father's pattern of abuse. (she and I have the same mom different father)

One of my biggest reasons for wanting to leave is for the children.  They have already made it clear that they don't like it when daddy "yells."   This is not what I want them to believe is a normal healthy relationship, because it's not.

[RefugeeFromOz]

There was a time when I believed that it was imperative to stay together for the kids.  But her behavior had become so pervasive and so destructive that I developed a real fear for both my and my kids emotional/psychological welfare.  Before separation, I’d never heard of BPD.  It was only after all of us worked with a therapist for nine months that she finally told me she thought my ex had “characteristics of BPD”, recommended SWOE, and my worldview changed dramatically and forever.

I absolutely believe that my kids are much healthier now than if we had stayed together.  When we were together I didn’t realize how much she had isolated me and the kids from each other.  We were afraid to talk about the problems.  Only after separation did the lines of communication open between me and the kids to the point where I learned that they had desperately wanted her out of the house, that they were depressed and frightened of her, that they were suffering from self-doubt and self-esteem issues, and that they were walking on eggshells not only to protect themselves but to protect me from her.  And these feelings were very, very strong.  Since we’ve been separated and divorced, I’ve approached my ex twice (never again) about trying to engage in a counseling process to attempt to address the real problems.  Twice I’ve been impressed by two things.  First, that she remains who she is.  She will use any advantage, any power, any crack in the door, to start wreaking havoc and destructiveness.  Second, that my kids cringe at the very thought of her being back in our lives in any significant way.

Luckily I did not have to leave my kids.  I was a stay-at-home dad for 9 years before we separated, and had a very good relationship with my kids.  When we separated, she moved out of the family home, and we worked out a “custody” plan with a therapist (no court order) that included a heavy focus on the kids welfare and wishes.  They always spent the vast majority of their time with me, and for the last 18 months have lived exclusively with me.  We (the therapist and I) worked with the kids to help them develop their own boundaries with their mom, and they made it clear to her from the start that if she tried to force them to do anything they didn’t want to do (court ordered custody) that it would be the end of their relationships, so she never forced anything.  In addition, I believe her attorney was very open with her about the her slim chances of ever getting a change on custody.  They were 13 and 17 when we separated.

Now, my kids and I live with me in our home and we talk about everything.  We discuss problems, we work them out, we live and let live, we take care of each other.  Sure we occasionally yell at each other, but we apologize, we talk, and we make it better.  None of us would ever step back into that Gestapo-like environment where you were afraid to even make eye contact for fear of being accused of being in concert against her.  Her control over our lives was preventing us from knowing who our kids really are as people.  Gone are the days where we are afraid to talk with each other.  We are free to expand and grow and be ourselves.

I do believe that since the divorce the kids have had to witness and be participants in conflict and stress that under normal circumstances they would not have been exposed to.  But most of that has been to establish and maintain boundaries with their mother, skills they’ll need for the rest of their lives.  We do have financial issues, but there is no harm in learning to economize.

I believe that if they are negatively affected, it is much more because of their exposure to BPD than the divorce itself.  They did not grow up with a loving person as a role model for a mother.  They did not grow up with our marriage being a good model for a healthy relationship.  But when we were together, they did see me fight back.  They saw me take steps to end the marriage.  They saw me openly seek professional counseling to solve problems.  And since then, I believe they have been healthy, safe, and thriving in the family we have left, and hopefully that will be a model for their future relationships.

In the end, when they finally understood that I gave up on attempting any form of reconciliation, they were greatly relieved.  For reasons that I don’t completely understand, they were much more accepting of the permanent nature of their relationship with their mother than I was.  But they were right, and I see that now.

My only regret is for family relationships that could only have ever existed in my fantasies.  But what we have now is real and enduring.

[Moving Beyond BPD]

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

I'm one of these guys.  I stayed a long time for fear that i would lose my kids.  The logic makes perfect sense for so long, but then one day it no longer made sense.   I wasn't really able to protect them when I was in the house.   I was fooling myself. 

At least now I can protect them 1/2 the time and give them a peaceful, happy, loving place to be.  If my x continues to self destruct, I will be able to give them a peaceful, happy, loving home much more than 1/2 the time. 

[gettinthere]

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?...For me, YES

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a bpd/npd parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?...If the study was comprised only of familys with one BPD parent I believe the the children from the divorced parents would be more stable

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?...I stayed for 10 years and it was absolutely the wrong decision

6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?...After 10 years the kids had accumulated a lot of fleas, after the first 8 mos. out the difference in them was remarkable, happy, voiced their own opinion's, respecting other peoples property, meeting new people, etc.  

4.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have? Hind sight is 20/20 I should have left 10 years before I did

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)...  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?...I shudder to think how they would have turned out if I had stayed

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?...Since my stbx is so low functioning there is very little contact from her to me or the kids. She doesn't even have a place of her own.

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?...My boys are only 10 & 11, but if your home life was like mine do whatever it takes to get the kids the hell out of there!  

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?...I thought that for a long time, the reason I stayed for so long. I'm a 14%er and darn proud of it. It can be done

    W

[Bailey]

Regarding this question:
2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.

This was an interesting study with some very significant results.  But I believe there is a problem inherent in that kind of study...there is no study of the effect of unhappy but intact marriages...there is no study of the effect of abusive but intact marriages...and there is no study of the effect of domestic violence in marriages that remain intact.

They can't take 2 marriages, and compare them side by side, one being happy and intact, one being abusive and intact.  They can't do this because no one married to an abusive spouse is going to admit it and allow their marriage to be studied.

Anyway, my answer is also YES that if one spouse is bpd or abusive and violent, then it skews the studies back the other way -- it is better for the children to have that abused spouse to be safe.

marymac

[spritom]

Premise:
* Things were going downhill for years and got really bad
* I initiated my intention for divorce, though it was a common subject for about a year already
* I moved out, but nothing filed
* After a week, I got epiphany #1...I realized I didn't trust my then-wife and I moved back in (then-wife had pledged not to "play dirty" on a number of things, such as custody...she later broke each of those pledges...it was a very good thing that I moved back in)
* I was considering the "standard" every-other-weekend thing...I didn't know what divorce was like...no idea
* I got epiphany #2 which stated that I was never a part-time dad before, and I wasn't about to start now
* Divorce filed soon after, I went for 50/50 everything...money, children, etc.
* It was almost a year, but it finally went through...with about 95% of my original proposal
* That year of being in the same house...I don't wish it on anybody.


1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?
It took me a few years, but I made it absolute.  Even near the beginning of the "absoluteness" I questioned myself and prayed asking if such a choice was the right track.  Call it an answer, call it karma, but very soon after I received very strong, harsh, negative behaviors from my then-wife and my resolve was strengthened.  I'm not trying to go into a religious discussion, but the part I'm expounding on is that I had many occasions where I confirmed my decision.  I'm divorced now, and even this evening while attending a school function, the Ex confirmed my decision once again.


2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a bpd/npd parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?
I've read many studies on many topics.  But when it got so personal as my marriage and the harsh things happening there, I really could have cared less about the studies.  My Ex was on a 3-7 day cycle of ups/downs for much of the time, and I was narrowly focused on surviving to the next cycle.

Most of the studies I had heard talked about children of divorced homes vs children who's parents stayed together.  This always bugged me a little bit, my childhood was pretty good...we grew up, didn't really have those oddities that we hear so much about, it really was good.  I think studies between divorced vs awful-together homes is more appropriate.


3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?
I absolutely stayed for the children for about a year.  I was intentionally a buffer for them for longer than that.  I now see that such an arrangement would have been an extremely poor long-term solution.  As far as the "right decision"...y'know...I think it was..but not for the children's sake, but it was a big learning step for me personally.

It was difficult though.  One occasion just came back to me.  One buffer moment when my then-wife was really verbally going after one daughter something fierce..and quite unfairly too.  I did the buffer and as was typical, my then-wife came after me..but this meant that she typically stopped harping on our daughter.  I retreated to a back room and was sobbing a little when my older daughter came in and told me what a good job I did "getting mom off" her sister.  I cried some more wondering who would get her off me.  I'm mortal and don't have an "S" on my chest...buffering was not a life decision for me.


6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?
Being a buffer or staying specifically for the children...that time was one of the worst times for them and myself.  I feel that we grew quite a bit closer during that time, but the house was a very negative place.  I'm not sure of the exact effect on the children.  They recognize what a bad time it was.  They also can see big contrasting differences between my Ex and myself and they told me so on many occasions. 


4.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have?
I wish I could have learned that lesson sooner, but looking back, I guess I needed to learn that lesson the hard way.  I've been able to learn other lessons from others, but this one?  I took the tough road on it.  And once I came to the point where I did move forward on the divorce, I know I would have regretted it if I kept staying for the kids.


5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)...  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?
The children are fast-adapting.  They're great at that.  They're rapidly noticing differences in the parenting on their own.  At the very least, I'm going to give them a good example of how to live life.  I don't regret it.


7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?
I don't think the friction was good at all.  I pleaded many times for her not to go to war in front of the children.  It didn't stop her.  Didn't even seem to slow her down at all.


8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?
The oldest is barely a teen.  I don't regret the decision a bit


9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?
Absolutely not!  Though for a short while I did...I didn't know any better, I had no idea, I had never been in the divorced world...no clue.  There's studies and all sorts of information that say that children need both parents.  But since I was so close to the situation, the studies just didn't ring much inside me...but I came around anyway, went for 50/50 and got it.


Today, my children spend at least half of their time at a fun and peaceful home.  Blaming and many other behaviors are things that we don't do here.  Though they seem to try for the first 1/2 day they're back, but children are fantastic survivors.

[spritom]

I wasn't really able to protect them when I was in the house.   I was fooling myself. 

Yes!  I totally hit that point too!  At one point I realized I wasn't protecting them anyway.