Age Appropriate Conversations

[Think About It....]

I had a talk with my 4yo's counselor a few days ago...I had failed to tell her that the divorce was final. We talked for a while about issues with S4 and D2 and will likely be having a combined visit at some point in the near future...She asked me " have you talked to S4 about what it means to be divorced?"

Ok...I was a little embarressed..."no I haven't"...I have been telling him for months that his mother would never be living in the house with us again but had not used that word or discussed custody because I did not want to mislead if I had my world turned upside down (DA getting custody,etc..).

Got home latter that night, got babies in the bed, and had some quite time with S4..."S4, do you know what divorce is?"

S4.."no"

"Your mom and dad are divorced...It means we won't live together anymore"

S4 "why not?"

"because we faught all the time"

S4 "why?"

"buddy, we just couldn't get along and decided we didn't need to live together anymore...I just wanted you to know it wsn't your fault or your brother's or sister's"

S4 "ok"...

I know the conversation will come up again...at least it has been broached.

Second Story :


After my conversation with the GAL and the visits went from 3hrs with 3 kids to 3hours with one child, S4 got the first visit.

When he got home..."S4, how did your visit with Mom go? Did you have a good time?"

S4.."I had fun"
"did you enjoy being with mom without D2 and S1"
...earlier in the day my dad had told me s4 was confused by the change of the visits and did not understand why his brother and sister did not go...

S4 "D2 was suppose to go too"
" no she was not...it was suppose to be just you"

S4 "but Mom had drinks for us both"
"GAL thought each of you should see your mother alone. She thought your mother would be able to visit with each of you alone easier"

Didn't know how best to tackle that subject with S4...I'm not sure I understand the logic behind seperating the visits...I understand the premise I'm just not sure it's sound judgement...So how do I explain it to my 4 yo? ..I figured I'd give it my best shot and hope my explaination didn't confuse him further. I just hope that by talking to him he will feel comfortable enough as he gets older to bring up issues about his mother with me...I guess it all starts now.

[doc101]

I had a talk with my 4yo's counselor a few days ago...I had failed to tell her that the divorce was final. We talked for a while about issues with S4 and D2 and will likely be having a combined visit at some point in the near future...She asked me " have you talked to S4 about what it means to be divorced?"

Ok...I was a little embarressed..."no I haven't"...I have been telling him for months that his mother would never be living in the house with us again but had not used that word or discussed custody because I did not want to mislead if I had my world turned upside down (DA getting custody,etc..).

Got home latter that night, got babies in the bed, and had some quite time with S4..."S4, do you know what divorce is?"

S4.."no"

"Your mom and dad are divorced...It means we won't live together anymore"

S4 "why not?"

"because we faught all the time"

S4 "why?"

"buddy, we just couldn't get along and decided we didn't need to live together anymore...I just wanted you to know it wsn't your fault or your brother's or sister's"

S4 "ok"...

I know the conversation will come up again...at least it has been broached.

Second Story :


After my conversation with the GAL and the visits went from 3hrs with 3 kids to 3hours with one child, S4 got the first visit.

When he got home..."S4, how did your visit with Mom go? Did you have a good time?"

S4.."I had fun"
"did you enjoy being with mom without D2 and S1"
...earlier in the day my dad had told me s4 was confused by the change of the visits and did not understand why his brother and sister did not go...

S4 "D2 was suppose to go too"
" no she was not...it was suppose to be just you"

S4 "but Mom had drinks for us both"
"GAL thought each of you should see your mother alone. She thought your mother would be able to visit with each of you alone easier"

Didn't know how best to tackle that subject with S4...I'm not sure I understand the logic behind seperating the visits...I understand the premise I'm just not sure it's sound judgement...So how do I explain it to my 4 yo? ..I figured I'd give it my best shot and hope my explaination didn't confuse him further. I just hope that by talking to him he will feel comfortable enough as he gets older to bring up issues about his mother with me...I guess it all starts now.

[djbett]

Sounds like you did great talking with him.  Just keep is simple in terms he will understand.  Maybe look for some kids books on divorce in the library or online.

[Rose]

There's a great book called, "Divorce the Sandcastles Way" or something with those words in the title of it.  It breaks down how to talk with kids about your divorce, in age-appropriate terms.  It also has some questions that the kids might be thinking (again, broken down by age) but have not explicitely expressed to you.  My DH would pick up that book for a few years after the initial separation as with BPD, unfortunately, it was like you were reliving the divorce every day. 

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[csandra]

You're doing great.  I can just picture you with those kids. 

Not, to make you paranoid or anything, but I can't help but notice that S4 seemed unusually concerned about things going OK with mom.  For instance, noticing that mom was ready with 2 drinks and didn't need them.  Wonder if she expressed disappointment, wanted to elicit sympathy/concern from son...?  Seems like most 4yo wouldn't even notice and could be easily distracted by, 'oh what's wrong with me ? I must have ordered 2 drinks by mistake.  You're welcome to it if you want more". 

Your kids will develop strong resilience.  Not only will they learn to deal with these confusing/difficult situation, they will have you to help them process.  I have my kids (16,19) in family counselling and it is really good to have the counsellor play "devil's advocate".  I am pretty candid about my concerns about how I have been handling things(detachment, acceptance, etc).  We don't discuss their dad specifically.  It's good for them to see how to get "through" issues, rather than "around" them.

[doc101]

I'm still learning about my son...one of the fun things about being a parent...you get to evolve with your kids and learn new things daily

S4 is very bright. His vocabulary is years ahead of his age and his visual skills/ creativity with spacial relationships is incredible...he builds skyscapers with windows, cities, zoos...all sorts of stuff that baffels me...his sence of symetry with shapes and colors is way ahead of his years...but emotionally he is four...he will be a challenge...I won't be able to do anything with him but plow through issues. If I try to dance around them he'll bust me, he's too smart to be fooled by me. I hope that by setting the stage, by talking to him early and often as he starts to notice more things about his mother and starts to question them I'll be able to help him with the struggles he is sure to face.

Another story...I wonder how long it will take S4 to notices instance like the following----

My dad delivers the kids for DA's visits. The GAL had asked me to ask Dad to bring S1 and D2 when he came to pick up S4. The idea was so DA could at least say hello to them since it had been 2 weeks since her last visit. When Dad arrived at the church DA is hurrying outside, went straight to her vehicle and left. She never even approached the van where her two youngest children were waiting...she never even said hello...I give more curtosy to strangers...granted the GAL was taking notes...but what sort of damage does that do to my kids? the message it sends to me...mommy doesn't give a darn...DA's excuse to GAL "I have a very important appointment and I don't want to upset S1 andD2 since I can only see them for a minute"...My dad's response to GAL when she told him what DA had told her..."She don't care about these kids"...Dad hit it right on the button.

[happygirl]

DA's excuse to GAL "I have a very important appointment and I don't want to upset S1 andD2 since I can only see them for a minute"...

Can somebody please tell what really important appointment exists when you are already getting limited time with your children as it is?

Something just occured to me.  Bpds often will split the children black or white.  In our situation, Joho had two children with another man before she married Walt.  She abandoned those children at an early age (3 and 6 months).  This was over 22 years ago.

I have heard the tapes that the stepmother made of Joho as she talked to the children over the years since the dad had custody.  In fact, Joho made their lives a living hell too and hence all these tapes were made of the children talking to the psycho Joho.

What came through loud of clear was her enmeshment with the older child and her complete disdain for the younger one and to this day she continues this same behavior.  In one tape, she giddily chats with the older one while the younger one could be heard in the background.  This goes on for 45 minutes (they were teens at the time).  Finally the older one says "Do you want to talk other son"  first she ignores him and he asks again.  Finally she says "If I have to".  She talked to him barely mustering any conversation for about three minutes and told him to put the other son back on where she proceeds to tease and flirt with him.

It was sickening.  My heart breaks for that second son.  Still does and I don't hardly even know him.

Anyway, doc, you are in an interesting situation.  Watch and see if a pattern emerges.  In her sickness, she may only value the older son.  You will have a front row seat to watch if this presents itself.  It will give you a clue to some of the issues that you may have to face later in life for these kids.

Or I could be completely off base.


HG

[sonnyboy]

Hey Doc,

I think you did a great job with your kids.  You kept it simple, without degrading mom. Divorce Poison is a good read -- very practical advice for what to say when such and such happens.

What's the story with the GAL?  Does mom have visitation only? 

SB

[doc101]

HG,

I'd say you are right on with the splitting observation. I've been watching out for that one for the last year. My first clue that it was happening was reading over on the unchosen board. Opened my eyes. Understanding and knowledge is definately power...hopefully knowing what to look out for will help with prevention of future problems.

DA has split S4 white IMHO...It has created problems with him already...he's getting better but the isssues are there none the less...Started directly after his birth and increased with his age. The paradox is that even though she idolizes him she has still been abusive/neglectful to him, some subtle, some overt. I think he replaced me as her ultimate source for ongoing attention. Started sleeping with him...he slept alon as an infant (I've heard her say "I just don't like babies") but once he got a little bigger she held him until he fell asleep...little older she moved in to the bedroom with him...she would cuddle up with him and whisper into his ear...God only knows what...Some of the attention appropriate, some not.

First major clue to splitting...and entirely hypothetical but my gut tells me it's so...BPD moms tend to have major conflict with their daughters. DA was pregnant with the triplets, when she found out they were girls the mood of her pregnancy changed.She quit acting happy about the multiple gestation, then she started having trouble with the pregnancy. Keep in mind my thoughts here are retrospective during the time I was clueless and enmeshed. Then she fell, broke 3 ribs, delayed seeking medical attention...she knows all about preterm labor and how to treat it...I think she intentionally fell then delayed her own treatment. The rib fractures induced preterm labor. She was noncompliate with her therapy. Delivered at 23 weeks. Two died shortly after birth..2 and 4 days of life. I think she was relieved. She has gotten tons of sympathetic mileage from their deaths and of D2's prematurity and hospitlaizatoins. I get mad as hell even thinking about it.

We came home with D2 (then 4 mo and 4 lbs), S4 (then 2.5yo) was not allowed to touch her. As time went by she would sit in her chair and give orders to S4 about D2..."get that from her, she can't have that , she's not old enough to play with that" etc... What happened through all of this was S4 did not properly bond with D2. He resents her. We (my parents, me, and his therapist) have been working on this.

D2 has been split black since prior to her birth.
D2 was physically abused in Dec...bruising to her face...ultimately this is what got DA out of the house with the restraining order...I don't know if S4 did it or not...DHR's ruling was that he did...I have my doubts...But even if he did in my mind DA is the one responsable.

S4 has a better relationship with his brother. When S1 came hom he was generally ignored by DA. He was only home for 3mo before DA has taken her full time job 100 mi away...So DA's influece was already lessening on S4...She was completely out  the time he was 7mo...D2 during this time was still taking the brunt of the neglect and I think S4 picked up on the way his mother treated her.

Fastforward back to now... For the next 2 visits the will be individual visits first with D2 then S1...I wonder if DA will even show.

My concerns about the above were made known to the GAL and the CE. Not sure if they think it's far fetched or not but from my reading here I think I'm likely right. She has even tried to project some of the abuse/neglect onto me...Which is why I really believe my theory...She told the GAL and the CE that I didn't love D2 or S1, that I only spent time/ cared for S4...I got to laugh at both of them when they mentioned DA's observation and called it what it is, projection...

[happygirl]

The paradox is that even though she idolizes him she has still been abusive/neglectful to him, some subtle, some overt

Splitting them white does not eliminate their continued potential for abuse against the white child, in some ways it increases it when the child does not live up to the unreasonable expectations of the mother.  It also really puts him at risk for the emotional incest that occurs as the mother makes him that replacement mate.  That is a huge amount of awful guilt for a child.

In our situation, when white child didn't conform as a teenager, it induced huge rages as the child continued upon the path of normal teenage growth and seperation from the parent.  Anyway, suffice it to say that you see the patterns that are cropping up already and again back to the age thing, five will be waaaaaay too young to stand up that kind of inappropriate parenting.

Has the GAL picked up on any of this?

HG

[doc101]

I think the GAL has picked up on it but I'm not sure how much of it has registered consciously...or it's long term significance. I think there's only so much of this crap you can digest at a time.

The good news here is that the GAL listens and is learning and so am I...the more I learn the more I can teach her...

[happygirl]

I actually was participating in another thread about emotional incest, what it was,ect.

I think newbeginnings found this and posted it and I thought it was good and wanted to pass the information along.  NB found it by googling "emotional incest".

Emotional incest from either parent is devastating to the child's ability to be able to set boundaries and take care of getting their own needs met when they become an adult. This type of abuse, when inflicted by the opposite sex parent, can have a devastating effect on the adult/child's relationship with his/her own sexuality and gender, and their ability to have successful intimate relationships as an adult."
"A touching scene? No. Emotional abuse! The child has just received the message that he/she has the power to save mommy's life. That the child has power over, and therefore responsibility for, mommy's feelings. This is emotional abuse, and sets up an emotionally incestuous relationship in which the child feels responsible for the parent's emotional needs."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, food for thought . . .

opps, I cut off part of it, I ll be right back.

HG

[ForeverDad]

My stbx had those inappropriate behaviors too, sleeping with the child especially after rejecting me the father, it is often called emotional incest.  I too at the time was enmeshed and appeasing, not knowing what to do.

In a way, I hope it has "protected" him somewhat from her blind (and towards the end, the not-so-blind) flailing rages and rants.  If I am evil, then he must be angelic.  The lesser of two evils?  Good child or bad child, that black or white world again.  But we have been separated for nearly two years, I have no idea what goes on with him in her home since then.

She continues to refer to him as her baby.  While I know lots of normal mothers will always say that, I don't know to what extent she views him literally or emotionally still as her baby.

In the last few weeks he has mentioned he wished he had siblings.  What to say?  I do my best.  She sure hasn't helped him to learn how to play alone.  Sometimes I think she wants to be his playmate.  When he is with other children, his is fine, though a bit aggressive.  When alone with me, he wants 100% of my time and attention and insists I play with him.  Obviously not very productive if I have things to do...

[happygirl]

I am sorry, I missed half of that information when I copied over so let me add all of it:

The missed part

"Consider a scenario where mother is crying in her bedroom and her three year old toddles into the room. To the child it looks as if mom is dying. The child is terrified and says, "I love you mommy!" Mom looks at her child. Her eyes fill with love, and her face breaks into a smile. She says, 'Oh honey, I love you so much. You are my wonderful little boy/girl. Come here and give mommy a hug. You make mommy feel so good.' 

and now add the information from before:

"A touching scene? No. Emotional abuse! The child has just received the message that he/she has the power to save mommy's life. That the child has power over, and therefore responsibility for, mommy's feelings. This is emotional abuse, and sets up an emotionally incestuous relationship in which the child feels responsible for the parent's emotional needs

Emotional incest from either parent is devastating to the child's ability to be able to set boundaries and take care of getting their own needs met when they become an adult. This type of abuse, when inflicted by the opposite sex parent, can have a devastating effect on the adult/child's relationship with his/her own sexuality and gender, and their ability to have successful intimate relationships as an adult."

There, my work here is done!

HG

[Jewls]

Wow, doc.  I just can't see DA in the picture much longer, I truly can't.  

You did wonderful with your S4.  You kept it basic and at his level.  It doesn't make it any easier for him to digest, but at least he understands.  When they're as intelligent as your S4 is, but still emotionally their chronological age, it's easy to assume they're "getting it."

This reminds me of something Stink Weed did last week.  We have 4 children together, S18, D16, D12, D8.  He had professional pictures done...with D12 and D8.  Talk about concrete evidence of splitting!  It reminds me of what DA is doing.

Keep up the good work, my dear.  You're doing great.  

[happygirl]

We have 4 children together, S18, D16, D12, D8.  He had professional pictures done...with D12 and D8.  Talk about concrete evidence of splitting!  It reminds me of what DA is doing.

Oh my freaking gosh.

Its like Joho travelling nine hours to be there at the birth of the favored son's first child and she hasn't even seen the other's son child, her first grandchild.  They live in the same town.

HG

[doc101]

The crazyness knows no bounds...

I remeber readin ForeverDad's post about emotional incest...

It really is hard to think about all of what goes on at one time. There's just too much. It takes a long time to process.

One of DA's favorite qoutes to S4 "mommy loves you more than anthing in the whole world"...
others...

...your mommies baby
...I love you, I love you...over and over again until he repeats it
...I can't wait to see you
...you can come see me soon
...I have a surprise for you
...I miss you soooo much

...she also talks to him in baby talk...keep in mind my son's articulation is flawless...he's been saying 4 syllable words since he was 18 mo old

[doc101]

oops...my son's innunciation(wouldn't a spell check funtion be nice)...his skill with articulation is pretty good too