Being a supportive spouse

[Think About It...]

Eh, the prospect of having children for somebody else's amusement is repugnant for reasons beyond self-interest.

But sure, you're right. In fact, bold as brass he did leave her in her hour of darkest back-injury need and go forth to live in a mouse-infested shack outside of town with a hayseed who does not believe in antibacterial soap, solely because he recognized that it would be great for him. Trouble is, he feels all guilty about it at the same time. Even while recognizing that living with her is terrifically bad for him and vowing never to do it again no matter what happens, there's the guilt thing.

[D]

Eh, the prospect of having children for somebody else's amusement is repugnant for reasons beyond self-interest.

But sure, you're right. In fact, bold as brass he did leave her in her hour of darkest back-injury need and go forth to live in a mouse-infested shack outside of town with a hayseed who does not believe in antibacterial soap, solely because he recognized that it would be great for him. Trouble is, he feels all guilty about it at the same time. Even while recognizing that living with her is terrifically bad for him and vowing never to do it again no matter what happens, there's the guilt thing.

[LavaMeetsSea]

Hmmm... I'm glad he's improved the way he treats you.  Yeah, there is a sort of "party code" that winds up seeing that the car keys, house telephone, or compass winds up in the hands of the most sober/responsible person left standing that probably does need explaining.  And if you were seeing a girl at the time, well come on now.  That changes everything, fair enough. 

I dunno, D.  I think if I were you I'd just say "I don't want her in my house, and I don't want to have to be dependent on her in any way (ie in her car, house, whatever).  But I DO want you.  Can we set up a weekly date where we spoil each other with undivided attention?  Then I'll have something to reassure myself with when you're out with your mom, because WE'LL be strong."  And if he ghosts you then, call him on it.  But the rest of the time?  Maybe he's processing and it'll get better with therapy.  Or maybe it just won't bug you so much if you still are getting some quality time with your man. 

You know him best, D.  Anything helpful so far?

[D]

Yeah. Harsh way to treat a close friend, but if you add the whole attraction + third-party-attachment etc. stuff, not all that odd.

I've told him about the ghost behavior, and last time I saw it I pointed it out and haven't seen it since. Actually, there's one that never got taken as an ultimatum and hasn't produced any backlash.

Another session with T, more helpful than the last but I still feel like she's busting my chops. H thought so too. Not good.

[LavaMeetsSea]

Whoa, the therapist situation doesn't sound particularly helpful.  I don't get it; my therapist and husband think so highly of each other that in one of my bleakest moments, I actually accused them of conspiring together to get me on meds.  My therapist's response:  "Well that hadn't occured to me, but would it help?"  My husband:  "Oh stop it.  She only likes me because I love you.  We have that in common.  You're the one obsessing about meds, and I think that's proof enough that maybe you should try them."  Sorry, off-topic a little, but generally most therapists are really supportive of stable relationships.  Is it like a possessive-protective thing?  Like she's a) got a crush on him and doesn't want to share, or b) feels like he's her son, and doesn't think you're good enough for her boy?  I mean, where is that coming from that it wouold be so noticeable that you BOTH agree it's inappropriate?  Cause that sounds like unaddressed transference on her part, but I could be wrong.

[frustratedgoodchild]

D,

Your MIL sounds EXACTLY like my dBPD mom down to the last detail. So, I have some idea what your partner is going through. The difference with me is I managed to stay somewhat detached throughout the last 25 years or so. In my case, mom's BPD didn't become overt until after I had left home to go to college and my dad died about a year later. 15-year-old sis was still in high school, and got a good dose of waif/hermit mom's neediness and bizarre behavior.

You mentioned the NYC subway and your mom's fear of it. My partner and I recently took a cruise to Costa Rica and Panama. When mom heard this (back when I was still painted white), she got very scared for us and told me that we should hold hands everywhere we went, she didn't care what people thought. Right. Like two middle-aged men walking around holding hands in Costa Rica was going to LESSEN our chances of having a problem.

As the all-white child, I spent years listening to mom vent about all the injustices done to her, her medical problems, etc. I thought it was doing no harm and was actually helping her in a small way by letting her unload every now and then. But eventually I realized that it WAS doing harm to me and wasn't helping her, even if she thought it was.

I don't have any good advice for her. My partner hasn't been too serverely affected by mom. Partly because I never completely bought into her version of reality, and partly because we only see her for a few days a year. Up until last year we had always stayed with her at Christmas, for her sake, even though it wasn't what we truly wanted to do. We (okay, I) thought it didn't do much harm to give her that for a few days. But then I finally realized just how much of a toll it was taking on us to stay with someone who doesn't want to do anything or go anywhere and who gets mad when we would go to see other people (like my sister). Plus she goes to bed very early, so we would spend 5 hours every night quietly watching TV and trying not to disturb her. Last year we finally broke free and started staying in a nearby hotel. She was devastated, of course, but we had to do it for us.

I'll echo what others have said here and say that you should focus on supporting your partner as he works through this, rather than trying to help him fix it. Ultimately he is the one who has to learn to have a healthy relationship with his mother. And he can do it; I'm proof of that. I spent 25 years trying not to rock the boat, not wanting to be yet another person to cause mom pain. But I eventually realized that mom liked me because I didn't disagree with her or contradict her or say "no" to her. I'm 2000 miles away and she's too scared to travel, so we've had minimal contact for many years. There isn't too much that can go wrong with a phone call every week or so and a 5-day visit once a year (at least in my case). Sis got painted black because there were just so many more opportunites to disappoint mom.

Take care,

FGC

[D]

LaveMeetsSea -- I dunno. I suspect it has more to do with T's own mother being elderly and developing the neediness that comes with aging-related health problems. Or maybe H expressing frustration at his feeling of being 'caught in the middle' caused her to think he needed her to challenge me. Or maybe my own bantam ferocity the intensity of the anger I expressed the first session I attended upset her. I dunno. She interrupted me mid-sentance last session with one of these mind-stalling pop-quizzes about how, exactly, I want H to behave to make me happy. It makes me feel like I'm being told that unless I have the recipe for a perfect relationship then I've not no right to complain about the current state of the soup, and it feels like a trap since at the same time I'm getting this 'you are too controlling' message. I was furious and glared at her and was actually considering walking out. Towards the end of the session she said, "You were really angry at me for a minute there, what was that about," and I told her that I felt like she was invalidating my feelings and challenging my right to have them. Got that null-response that T's like to do, which is supposed to mean "I'm listening but not judging," but under the circumstances I found that, too, to be annoying and invalidating.

In any case, I don't think I'll  be back. H will go at least one more time. The first two sessions, where he went alone, did seem to help. Then again, I have doubts about dropping out, because sometimes it does feel like the T sessions have opened us up to each other -- we have productive conversations afterwards, and some of the stuff said in T really is useful.

frustratedgoodchild -- yeah, they do sound alike from the posts of yours I've read. I think the difference is that you've been the 'good' child and your sister has been the 'bad' one, while H is an only child. He's all white but of course she still hurts miserably and he hasn't fixed it but he's still all good, it's just that she doesn't deserve him, etc. All a great way to create guilt. And you are just further away from your mom, while H lived with her 'til he was 25, still sees her weekly, talks on the phone several times a week. A huge amount of pressure for him.

As the all-white child, I spent years listening to mom vent about all the injustices done to her, her medical problems, etc. I thought it was doing no harm and was actually helping her in a small way by letting her unload every now and then. But eventually I realized that it WAS doing harm to me and wasn't helping her, even if she thought it was.

Yeah. H is really struggling with this. Usually MIL will not accept actual concrete help. She complains miserably, but if we offer to do something real to help, she complains that it's too much trouble for us and how we shouldn't. If we give her concrete help, she's rarely happy with it. She spent several weeks complaining about a closet door in her apartment that would not latch and how she had to move a heavy object to act as a doorstop to keep it from swinging open, and how difficult this was because of her injuries. I brought over a little tool kit and fixed it for her. When I showed her the smooth operation of her closet door, she said, "Now how will I get my exercise?" (I thought, 'Oh, can it, I'm sure you can think of something else to butt about for next week.") That sort of thing, or she'll sit there and cry and cry about how she's such a terrible person for imposing on us and how humiliated she is to need help. Time after time she has self-sabotaged her own recovery from her injuries and I honestly believe that she does not want to get better, because she thinks that if she becomes less needy then H will leave her. I really think she would actually do more for herself and see real improvement if it ever becomes clear to her that H will love her even if she's well and doesn't 'need' him.

But what she says to him, repeatedly, is that just having him listen to her is the biggest help in her life. We had a talk about that and he understands that letting her unload and guilt him about her problems is actually reinforcing her self-destructive and self-neglectful behaviors, but getting out of that pattern is going to be a really tough row for him to hoe.

[salt]

I would like to chime in on the therapist issues. 

As a reminder, my DH's ex-wife is uBPD.  They have an 11 year old son together. 

DH and I sought marriage counseling to assist us in agreeing appropriate boundaries with the ex-wife a few years ago.  The therapist was in over her head.  She seemed to be pulling her responses from some sort of therapist manual.  They sounded rote and practiced rather than genuine and spontaneous.

She went so far as to suggest, in one session, that my Dh was reacting to my acting "just like the ex wife" when I became angry...at which point my DH quickly corrected her that this was far from reality and the truth.  Even though I think every couple brings their own agenda to counseling to some degree or another, even my DH knew when she was totally off-base in her evaluation of the situation.

There is a big difference between expressing anger and being emotionally and verbally abusive.  There is a big difference between asserting ones own need for boundaries and protection and being emotionally blackmailing (fear, obligation, guilt).  Our counselor was not equipped to deal with the complexities of our situation.  She might have been great at handling "normal" divorces and stepfamily issues, she was NOT able to adequately assess the impact a personality disordered person has on a couple. 

Please be careful with the counselor and look for a new one.  My DH and I later found someone much more able to quickly "get it" and who was clear on the underlying issues with US rather than assigning any blame or suggesting solutions that merely scraped the surface.

[LavaMeetsSea]

I think therapists are kinda like teachers or doctors, in that many of them are inept or unethical, and when that happens it can be devastating.  Still, I value education and medicine and, even after the butt-kicking I got from mine today, GOOD therapy. 

Being hostile to a client's partner is unprofessional.  That's why mine has a consultant, to work that crap out on her own time.  When I was a behaviorist, I had a favorite supervisor.  Transference and projection happen to the best of them, but if she makes it a pattern, and doesn't reflect, apologize, or make steps to change, then I say ditch her.  Of course, she's not YOUR therapist, and if your partner doesn't feel the same way, considering the thing with his mother... man aren't you in a fun position.  Hugs if ok.

[frustratedgoodchild]

frustratedgoodchild -- yeah, they do sound alike from the posts of yours I've read. I think the difference is that you've been the 'good' child and your sister has been the 'bad' one, while H is an only child. He's all white but of course she still hurts miserably and he hasn't fixed it but he's still all good, it's just that she doesn't deserve him, etc. All a great way to create guilt. And you are just further away from your mom, while H lived with her 'til he was 25, still sees her weekly, talks on the phone several times a week. A huge amount of pressure for him.

I don't think having an all-black sister changes things much; your MIL must have other blackened people in her life. Whether they are other children or friends, etc., the fact is that your partner is all-white which puts a lot of pressure on him to "make" his mother happy. My mom gave me the "no one know me except you; no one cares about me except you. etc" for years. It's her idealized view of who I am. The moment I showed her that I wasn't 100% in agreement with her on everything, her view of me crumbled and I was added to the long list of people who have hurt her.

But what she says to him, repeatedly, is that just having him listen to her is the biggest help in her life. We had a talk about that and he understands that letting her unload and guilt him about her problems is actually reinforcing her self-destructive and self-neglectful behaviors, but getting out of that pattern is going to be a really tough row for him to hoe.

Yes, it will be very tough. Old habits die hard, right? If he understands that the current dynamic isn't helping anyone, then changing the pattern is a matter of practice. BUT... he needs to be prepared for his mom to not go along with the new way of communicating without a fight. He could try changing the subject; do it enough times and she'll get the message. Of course, this could lead to "don't you care about me?" etc., which might actually be a good lead-in for him to say that he does care about her but that complaining about things without doing anything about them does no good. If MIL is always complaining about being a victim, he could start pointing our her role in the situation; this is advice I got from another member of this board. For example, if MIL says the plumber doesn't return her calls, he can tell her that she should call him again. Keep showing her that she has control over events in her life. Once he's comfortable with the new paradigm, he can tell her flat-out that he does not want to talk about her woes. It's all a matter of him feeling confident in what he's doing and taking charge of the situation; his mom will do whatever she can get away with.

FGC

[D]

Even though I think every couple brings their own agenda to counseling to some degree or another, even my DH knew when she was totally off-base in her evaluation of the situation.

Of course. As far as I know, H agreed with me about the agenda for counselling, and told T what it was first session. That agenda being, help H figure out how to reclaim power over his life from his mom, without feeling like a bad person for doing it. My own agenda was to lick my wounds and recreate the trust I had in him that's been eroded by our lengthy conflict about wether or not appeasing MIL by letting her take over his life is the thing to do.

Really, I think I'm making pretty good progress on my own agenda there, and want to see H and T go back to working on the primary one, but T has seemed far too focused on me and my relationship with H and I've not seen her give much about how to deal with MIL's behavior, aside from saying to call 911 when she threatens suicide, something H is not at all ready to do and which probably needs to be approached after smaller steps have been taken.

It's all very dissapointing, because finding a T at all was very hard.

You're right, frustratedgoodchild. H grew up with a painted-black SF. I dunno, though. It seems that the minute you stopped being 100% in agreement, you got blackened throughly? H is white, but also on the list of people who hurt her, she just expresses that with this guilt-creating betrayal language. Instead of making him bad, it makes her more bad.

If MIL is always complaining about being a victim, he could start pointing our her role in the situation; this is advice I got from another member of this board.

How did that work out? If H points out things like that, mostly it passes as if unheard. Sometimes it provokes anger. If I do, it's more likely to provoke anger. Interestingly, she very often supersedes such comments by whining that 'everybody (since she has no social life besides H, I wonder who 'everybody can be if it's not us) thinks X about me,' with X being the truth of her own responsibility framed in such a fashion that it seems extremely cruel. Makes it seem kinda impossible to call her on her self-sabotaging behavior when she's already warned you that calling her on it is thinking this cruel thing.

[frustratedgoodchild]

Really, I think I'm making pretty good progress on my own agenda there, and want to see H and T go back to working on the primary one, but T has seemed far too focused on me and my relationship with H and I've not seen her give much about how to deal with MIL's behavior, aside from saying to call 911 when she threatens suicide, something H is not at all ready to do and which probably needs to be approached after smaller steps have been taken.

My advice is to find another T, one that is focused on helping H deal with his mother in a healthy way. My gut feeling is that the T is focused on you because your relationship with H is easier to deal with than his relationship with his mother. If you can't or don't want to switch T's, then you might need to take the lead in focusing your time together back on H and his mother.

How to deal with suicide threats has been discussed here recently. Concensus is to ALWAYS call 911 and let the professionals handle it. If it was a bluff looking for attention, she'll think twice about doing it again after seeing that her threat was taken seriously. If it wasn't a bluff, then she is getting the help she needs.

If MIL is always complaining about being a victim, he could start pointing our her role in the situation; this is advice I got from another member of this board.

How did that work out?

To tell the truth, I haven't had much opportunity to practice this technique. The point is to show mom that she isn't going to just get sympathy from her son. By lending his ear to her rantings, he's rewarding her behavior at no cost to her. If he starts to point out her responsibility or give her advice (which I do have experience with), she might change her behavior. In my case I saw that it was hard for mom to keep complaining when I gave her advice on what to do next and she'd move on to another topic.

Interestingly, she very often supersedes such comments by whining that 'everybody (since she has no social life besides H, I wonder who 'everybody can be if it's not us) thinks X about me,' with X being the truth of her own responsibility framed in such a fashion that it seems extremely cruel. Makes it seem kinda impossible to call her on her self-sabotaging behavior when she's already warned you that calling her on it is thinking this cruel thing.

I think the key here is to stop focusing on her and how she'll feel (nothing you say or do will make her feel either better or worse) and look at how you and H feel. When mom would get upset at something all-black sis supposedly did, she would say she was "being kicked while she was down." It's easy to play into the waif's fragility and feel that she wouldn't be able to handle the truth, but she's a lot tougher than she appears.

FGC

[D]

My gut feeling is that the T is focused on you because your relationship with H is easier to deal with than his relationship with his mother. If you can't or don't want to switch T's, then you might need to take the lead in focusing your time together back on H and his mother.

I'm sure you're spot-on, about her finding it easier to focus on me.

I've found myself thinking of going to the next session and just sitting there insisting that the focus stay on the control she weilds over his life and how he can take that back without suffering for it. But one thing that NC is teaching me is that I don't need to supervise, and the consequences of my attempts to guide this process too closely have been negative. I think it's best if I don't go, but talk to H before he does and let him figure out if he can get T to focus and be helpful or if we just need to find another T.

How to deal with suicide threats has been discussed here recently. Concensus is to ALWAYS call 911 and let the professionals handle it. If it was a bluff looking for attention, she'll think twice about doing it again after seeing
that her threat was taken seriously. If it wasn't a bluff, then she is getting the help she needs.

Yeah. However, H isn't in an emotional place where he can do that, yet. Like the 'BPD Waif,' MIL wails to be rescued, but the 'Queen' persona is also there, and demands to control. He thinks, and is probably right, that she would consider calling 911 to be the ultimate affront, an attack on her autonomy. What he's not quite absorbed is that her suicide-threats, with their not-quite-but-almost-overt message that he is responsible for her well-being, is an attack on his autonomy.

Your previous post about all-good and all-bad status made me realise something. Growing up, he saw her transform SF into all-bad SF. He even bought into this -- only very recently has he begun to acknowledge the many good things that SF did for him. H is terrified of MIL's rejection, and I've always wondered why since it strikes me as impossible that she would break with him, no matter what he does. But whoa, he witnessed her do it to another, and it happened when he was very small, and SF's life has been more or less ruined by it. Yikes. Ow.

The point is to show mom that she isn't going to just get sympathy from her son. By lending his ear to her rantings, he's rewarding her behavior at no cost to her. If he starts to point out her responsibility or give her advice (which I do have experience with), she might change her behavior. In my case I saw that it was hard for mom to keep complaining when I gave her advice on what to do next and she'd move on to another topic.

Sometimes, with MIL, giving advice just gives her a new soapbox for her fears.

Ever play "The Monkey's Paw" game? One person says, "I wish I had a million dollars," and the next player says, "Granted, but you discover that all your friends are gold-diggers who keep kissing up hoping you'll give them some cash. I wish I had a new car,"  and the next player comes up with a way that a new car could be granted and turn into a disaster. It's a fun now-we-must-sit-still sort of game, or an internet-forum game. I've considered introducing it here, but suspect it might hit a little too close to home on this board.

With MIL, if she doesn't simply ignore the advice, she comes up with a reason it won't work. Sometimes it's a really dramatic one that becomes a new thing to be afraid of, sometimes it's just dismissive. With me, she often just ignores it and forgets it. There was one incident where she was complaining that she didn't have the money to get a medical service she believes she needs. I explained, fairly precisely, how to get into a medical program for uninsured financially strapped people, a resource that would provide her with the service she wanted. This was dismissed as unthinkable. Later her only friend, also trying to offer concrete help, discovered that same service's internet page and told MIL about it. She gave H some guilt-trip crap about how he had not done this research for her. But still isn't working on getting the specific service she wants.

When mom would get upset at something all-black sis supposedly did, she would say she was "being kicked while she was down."

I've got to laugh. When MIL is at her worst, she's also at her most depressed. Every time I have called her on her nasty behavior, it's been "kicking her when she's down." H gets blamed for it too, it's both of us kicking her, even on the occassions where he's just been sitting there, totally shut-down, while I try desperately to tell MIL that her behavior is hurtful and nasty and why.

I

t's easy to play into the waif's fragility and feel that she wouldn't be able to handle the truth, but she's a lot tougher than she appears.

In our case, it's not that we don't think she's strong enough to handle it, it's that she adamantly refuses to see it. In the past, well, me standing there pointing out that her behavior is terrible and is having terrible consequences on her son, look at him for crying out loud, results in her psychoanalyzing me and discovering a hidden false meaning to my behavior. If I don't like her threatening suicide and making it H's responsibility, it's not because she's abusing him, it's because I am emotionally immature and cannot handle the grim realities of life. She actually apologized to me once, in a sort of back-handed let-me-gently-point-out-your-flaws kind of way, by saying that she should not have triggered me by talking so candidly of suicide in front of me. My refusal to accept this apology (complete with explaination that I cannot accept an apology for something that didn't happen and wasn't the crime) is just further evidence of my cold lack of compassion for her.

[frustratedgoodchild]

D,

Your last post sounds a lot like you guys are still very much enmeshed with MIL. You're trying to rationally deal with someone who is irrational. One thing that I've learned is that it isn't about convincing HER that you guys care and are doing the right thing; the important thing is for you guys to make a plan and stick to it. The parent-child roles are reversed. For example, you won't convince her that her suicide threats are anything but normal, because they're normal FOR HER. And she won't ever thank you for calling 911, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

I like your plan for the T. If you're not there it should be easier for H and T to focus on the issues with his mother.

15 years ago (long before sis and I knew about BPD), mom's suicide threats went from generic statements about how she didn't like her life and how she'd be better off dead to more specific statements like telling us where the important documents were stored, etc. One day sis and her future husband visited her and she talked about suicide again and showed them marks on her wrists where, she said, she had been wondering what it would be like to kill herself. Sis called mom's T and she ended up spending two weeks in a hospital. Of course, mom was furious about that. But she pretty muched stopped threatening suicide. The thing is, to this day she says that sis over-reacted and that that wasn't the right thing to do. She says "it was a cry for help" and I tell her, "you got help". The thing is, she didn't get the "help" she wanted. In other words, her attempts at manipulation backfired. But we'd do it again in a heartbeat. In fact, at the time, I told sis "even if mom ends up hating both of us and never speaking to us again (wouldn't that be great? ), we did the right thing."

My mom had negative things to say about everybody and it wasn't until I was an adult that I learned to trust my own impression of people.

Sometimes, with MIL, giving advice just gives her a new soapbox for her fears.

It's not so much about giving her advice as it is about pointing out reality to her. Showing her that she has responsibility and control even if she doesn't think so. And forget about convincing her of anything. She won't say "thanks, I wasn't seeing that clearly", but by doing this you at least divert her current thinking and maybe keep her from going on and one about it.

Have you checked out other resources here? There are some good articles at http://www.BPDfamily.com/tools/articles.htm on dealing with BP's.

I empathize with your example of the medical services that MIL wouldn't get. Keep in mind that if she had taken responsibility and gotten help, then she wouldn't be able to complain about it! She's not looking for practical advice and help; she's looking for sympathy. My mom has complained for years that she hates living alone (every since dad died and sis left for college about 25 years ago!). Sis and I went through a list of options, everything from finding a roommate (college student or someone her age in a similar situation), retirement community, etc. Mom rejected every idea, I think because she knows that what she really wants is for dad to be alive and us kids to be at home, dependent on her so she feels valuable. She might not realize that, but the point is that she isn't looking for a solution to the specific problem of not liking her living situation, she's looking for someone she can say "woe is me" to.

In our case, it's not that we don't think she's strong enough to handle it, it's that she adamantly refuses to see it.

But she doesn't have to see it! It's not about HER (anymore); it's about you and H. There is no win-win solution here (not from her point of view). You guys are still walking on eggshells. You're looking for a way to take care of yourselves AND have her take responsibility for herself. It won't happen. When I said "she's strong enough", I didn't mean that you can do something that will make her take control of her life. I meant that she will survive, that she will find someone else to vent to. It isn't about rationally talking to her and getting her to agree to being more autonomous; it's about detaching yourselves so that she has no choice but to be autonomous. Like a mother bird pushes the baby out of the nest: the bird learns to fly.

Oh, and give up on the idea of her realizing how much she's hurting her son and you. During our family counseling sessions, the closest mom got to acknowledging other people's pain was to say "nobody hurts more than I do." In other words, "okay, MAYBE other people are in pain, but since my pain is so much greater, their's doesn't matter." When we would talk about how sis was feeling hurt, mom would say "well, she hurt me." In mom's eyes, everything she has done has been in self-defense. There was simply no way to get her to take responsibility for anything she had done.

I wish you all the best. I think this post might come across as harsh, but I'm hoping to point out some things to you that have taken me a long time to learn.

Oh, does your H post here? He might not feel ready to open up to a bunch of strangers, but I can tell you that this board has helped me immensely. The collective wisdom of the people here is truly irreplaceable.

FGC

[D]

I wish you all the best. I think this post might come across as harsh, but I'm hoping to point out some things to you that have taken me a long time to learn.

Not really. Rather, frustrating. It is not I who am enmeshed. I've been NC for over two months. Since MIL broke all of my patience with her demands that H tell her which method of suicide to use to make the event easiest on him and depicted this emotional abuse as kind, noble, and indicative of how very mature their relationship is. She has throughly screwed the pooch with me.

H has long said, 'She will never change, we just have to wait for her to die.' But she's not even fifty-five, and even if her injuries are as painful and debilitating as she claims (dubious, she has always been Princess Pea and proud of it, with an annoying habit of talking about "Dead Flesh" people whenever she sees that I've got a scratch on my hand that doesn't bother me) they will not kill her. And she may feel like crap, but she's not going to kill herself. The suicide threats are obvious re-engagements, intended to demand more attention from H. I no longer question my understanding of these facts.

It's H who's enmeshed and I wish I knew how to show him out, and had answers to those concerns about her reactions.

My answers -- If she threatens suicide, call 911. If she tries to guilt-trip you or goes witchy-mean on you, tell her its abuse and walk out. If she rabbits on and on about her misery without accepting any concrete help or suggestions, tell her its tedious and frustrating and walk out if she won't change the subject. And walk out like you mean it, no discussion, no responding to 'wait, you don't understand!' stuff. And no going over to see her just to alleviate your guilt, she'll only create more guilt in you, find something else to do with it.

But these are a little too much for him right now. Probably. What would make good in-between steps? Is there such a thing?

He did manage to not see her this weekend. Hemming and hawing over it, "I just feel, I feel..."
"You feel guilty," I said and that was the end of that. We went and did something else, together. It was nice.

She's been on her best behavior since I stopped seeing her, except for the occassion on the telephone when he eventually hung up on her. Actually, I think this display of relative pleasantness from her is a lot of the problem. He's not enjoying the visits but they're not the usual degree of terrible. I sense this is about to change, though. I'm suprised she managed it for so long. Now? Well, one of the reasons he hasn't seen her this week is that she doesn't want to go to the movies or park or anything (one thing he has managed to do is to make most visits contain an activity besides sitting there listening to her) she just wants to 'spend time together,' which is MIL-ese for 'whine and guilt-trip you for six hours solid.' I think he's got a better chance of bringing himself to set limits when she's being overtly unpleasant than he does when it's just his habit of attempting to keep her appeased.

Naw, he doesn't post here. It's not his bag and he'd probably be kinda ticked at me for airing this stuff to strangers. Or maybe not. I did get a copy of 'Understanding the Borderline Mother' and point him to the parts about dealing with the relationship 'Loving the Waif without Rescuing Her' etc. He read a little bit and said that he feels like he's already doing all that stuff, but hopefully he'll finish the rest of those four chapters and see some suggestions that don't feel done.

[LavaMeetsSea]

D, I know it's hard, but I think you've already stumbled on a bit of an answer.

It's the three-to-five month lag; most of the BPD's I knew can't manage to sustain good behavior in intimate relationships for more than 3 to 5 months.  When you were around, you were the blame.  Now you aren't around, and so far, she's been unusually well-behaved.  She's not going to be able to maintain it, though.  And if you aren't there, well, that's going to make it awfully hard to pin the blame on you for "inciting" or "escalating".

My guess?  She'll eventually blow up on your DH, and that'll make the situation a little clearer for him - even though it's probably going to really hurt. 

[frustratedgoodchild]

D,

It sounds like you're much further along in dealing with this than H, most likely because you don't have as much emotionally invested in the relationship as he does.

Do not just sit passively by waiting for the problem to go away (her dying). If she's anything like my waif mom, her health problems are relatively minor. The healthiest thing your H can do for himself and his relationship with you (and her for that matter) is to actively do something to change the dynamic of the relationship. "You'd be better off without me; help me figure out how to kill myself" is a blatant re-engagement: "Tell me how much you love me." Better to tell her that he doesn't like to hear that kind of talk and call 911. Yes, she'll be furious with him, tell him he's overreacting, but taking cues from her as to the correct way to behave is insanity on his part.

He says he "feels" that he's doing everything it says in UTBM? He's not. He may know intellectually that those are the right things to do, but his feelings right now are of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). You ask what small steps he can take? It's up to him to decide which of many things he can do to disrupt the pattern, but he needs to pick one to make progress for himself. My suggestion is to start by taking more control of unpleasant conversations. I used to let my mom go on and on until she ran out of things to say because I thought it was helping her to vent. Now I see that my silence was seen as agreement by her. Keep in mind that actions speak louder than words. Telling her not to talk about something is just going to start an argument. Instead, change the subject. (I'm speaking to you as if you're the one dealing with her only because it's easier than speaking to H through you.) It sounds silly, but ask her about the weather. Did she see this thing on TV? And don't be afraid to end the call before she might want to. "I need to go." "We were just on our way out." Will she try to guilt him into staying on the phone? Probably. But he needs to learn in his heart that it isn't hurting her to set that kind of limit.

You say making these types of changes would be too much for him right now? Why? Why right now? How long has he been seeing the T? What progress has he made. Does he understand at least intellectually what is going on? Is he moving toward a point where he can start to make some changes? One thing I discussed with my sis yesterday is that, if we had been magically put into our current situation with no history, we would see how much craziness is coming from mom. But because we gradually eased into it, her behavior getting more and more bizarre over a number of years, we don't see all of that. We've been desensitized to it. Calmly discussing the best way to commit suicide IS NOT normal healthy behavior.

Does H feel that there must be something he can do to help her? It took me a long time, but I finally learned for myself that you can't change someone who doesn't want to change. One analogy I've heard to illustrate how difficult it is for BP's to change is to imagine that she's overweight and people keep telling her to lose weight, but she loves food and is happy with her weight and don't feel any need to change her eating habits. How successful do you think you'd be helping her to lost weight? It's easy for us non's to look at the BP and think "they're so miserable; why don't they do something to change?" Because they see others as the problem, and they are scared to death to look at themselves because they know deep-down that there isn't much there. Their sense of self is so fragile that even admitting one wrong-doing would destroy them.

Encourage him to read the entire book, not just the chapters that deal with the waif. There's a lot of good stuff in there, and MIL probably exhibits all of the four types at one time or another; it's just that the waif dominates.

FGC

[D]

It sounds like you're much further along in dealing with this than H, most likely because you don't have as much emotionally invested in the relationship as he does.

Well, sure. She's not my mom. I care about her, but her cons don't work on me. I've not been indoctrinated to believe her bizzare ontology. And it's been obvious to me since about the first time I met her that she's off-kilter, though I did not at first realise how severely so. The way she fits in so neatly with the BPD phenomenon just gives me better language to understand what the heck's going on, and more confidence in my own opinions.

He says he "feels" that he's doing everything it says in UTBM? He's not. He may know intellectually that those are the right things to do, but his feelings right now are of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).

Well, he said he felt he was already doing everything it said between page 200 and page 219 of UTBM. This is what he read. I marked for him the chapters (not just about the 'Waif', but all these personas) that include practical advice about how to deal with specific behaviors. I hope he'll read the rest of those pages. I doubt he'll read the whole book. Which is okay, if he'd just absorb the stuff that's practical. He doesn't really need to think any further on her tortured childhood, she's talked about it more than enough and her not-aloneness in her experience and maladaptation to it is probably not important for us.

(Yeah, I read the whole book, but I read really fast and he reads like a normal person.)

You ask what small steps he can take? It's up to him to decide which of many things he can do to disrupt the pattern, but he needs to pick one to make progress for himself. My suggestion is to start by taking more control of unpleasant conversations. I used to let my mom go on and on until she ran out of things to say because I thought it was helping her to vent. Now I see that my silence was seen as agreement by her. Keep in mind that actions speak louder than words. Telling her not to talk about something is just going to start an argument. Instead, change the subject.

Same deal here. She claims that his listening to her vent is the biggest help in her life, this enormous support that she needs. And he has believed that it is helping her. And she takes silence as support/agreement. To her, appearantly, his sitting there going grey in the face with boredom and misery is love.

He has decided to take control of those unpleasant conversations, by changing the subject. So far, he says this has worked. So far, she's been on her best behavior. LavaMeetsSea is undoubtedly correct and MIL will not be able to maintain this good behavior. What I fear is that the blow-up won't open his eyes as Lava suggests, but that it'll just sink him further into FOG, or that it will be a gradual escalation instead of a sudden blow-up. Seeing as she's so predictable, I imagine that gradual escalation is going on now. His break from her was probably correctly interprated as a loud declarative, "Back off!" and she'll just creep creep back into the same old pattern if he doesn't continue to push her back. But to push back, he may first need to see an obvious encroachment, and the gradual one will slip by his radar.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

You say making these types of changes would be too much for him right now? Why? Why right now? How long has he been seeing the T? What progress has he made.

Why? Because of FOG. I think he's seen T six times, now. The first two, he said it helped, that he was understanding that MIL is a problem 'cause he lets her be one and that to change the relationship he needs to change his responses. But when it comes to big changes (like calling 911 instead of nodding sympathetically in silence when she threatens suicide) he's still seriously FOGged. Afraid that if he sets really appropriate limits that she'll go NC with him (ha, like she'd ever stop latching on like that) and that would be the same as him abandoning her. Or that she'll kill herself after a blow-up concerning her unwillingness to accept some boundary of his, leaving him with an overwhelming guilt.

Subsequent T sessions, I've been there. The first was okay. The second and third, T seemed to be almost entirely focused on me, leaving me feeling blamed and that I've been told that I'm the crazy one.

He'll go again this week, and probably quit.

Does he understand at least intellectually what is going on? Is he moving toward a point where he can start to make some changes?

T didn't really mean it when she said 'Borderline' and hasn't mentioned it again, what with being to busy grilling me. I don't know that H buys this 'diagnosis' and I know he's not read much about it. He understands and agrees when I point out how she's manipulating him and sabotaging herself.

Moving to a point where he can make some changes? Yes. There? Probably not. He's trying. I suspect he's being too half-buttocked about it and it'll come undone under the constant pressure and testing from her, much the same as it has every other time I've cried 'Too much!' and we've tried, together, to set limits.

Does H feel that there must be something he can do to help her? It took me a long time, but I finally learned for myself that you can't change someone who doesn't want to change.

She's his mom. I've no doubt he feels that he has to help her if it's at all possible, and that giving up on her is nothing to be done lightly, and might be wrong to do at all. In truth, I feel the same. But the way I see it, the best way to help her is to do just what I keep suggesting. She's miserable, and she doesn't want to change. Something about the current pattern works for her. She's not stupid or helpless and her situation is only as hopeless as she makes it. If she would see that being hopeless and helpless does not get her more love or satisfaction or whatever it is, maybe she'd work to help herself. And she's the only one who can do it. What she wants from him is not what she needs to really get better.

[frustratedgoodchild]

D,

Your orignal post asked how you can be a supportive spouse. Short answer: give it time. I NEVER thought I'd be at the point where I am today, essentially very-LC or possibly NC with dBPD mom. But after processing all of this, learning about BPD, and most importantly for me discussing on this board, I can't see how I could have gotten anywhere else. Don't push H too hard, but gently guide him and set an example for him by letting him know (gently) that MIL's behavior is not normal or healthy.

You mention the Monkey's Paw. It's a great story and I'm sure a fun game (although I've never played). But using that as a litmus test for life is taking a defeatist attitude: Don't do anything because there will be negative consequences. Every decision in life involves looking at the pros and cons based on knowledge and experience and making the decision with the most desirable outcome. Of course, from your MIL's point of view, ANY change in the status quo will be seen as a negative. In my case, when I stopped passively listening to mom as she vented the same stuff every week and simply told her "I love you and I love sis and don't want to be in the middle of this anymore", she heard "I don't want to talk about this because you're an f'ing liar!". Clearly, she was not happy with my choices. But I AM! I weighed the benefits to her and the cost to me of listening and decided that setting that boundary would do me a lot of good while not really doing her any real harm. Yes, she wasn't happy with it, but she's not happy with any change. In fact, her biggest complaint about sis and me is that we've "changed" and that she's still the same person who raised us. We all change as we go through life; she sees all changes in others as negative changes.

Try to get H to read the chapters on the four types of mothers: waif, hermit, queen, witch. While MIL is mostly waif, there's a lot of hermit in there and I'll bet the witch and queen show up now and then. It helped me to pick and choose those aspects of each of these types as they apply in my case.

One thing I struggled with right after mom was diagnosed was: why if it isn't BPD? She didn't fit neatly into all of the criteria, so maybe it was something else. Then I realized that the clinical diagnosis isn't important. Given her behavior, whether BPD or not, I need to handle it the same way. Some rules are universal: call 911 if someone threatens suicide, don't reward bad behavior, try to point out the truth when someone misinterprets our actions, etc.

I've no doubt he feels that he has to help her if it's at all possible, and that giving up on her is nothing to be done lightly, and might be wrong to do at all.

Sis and I felt exactly the same way. Now that we truly believe we HAVE done everything possible to help her, we are able to look at ourselves and what's best for us. Years ago, when I was trying so hard to find the answer to how to help her, a T told me "you can try this, or you can try that, but nothing you do will really help her OR hurt her." He was right. The lesson is: do what you think/feel is right for everyone involved, recognizing that the amount of influence you have on another person is very small; only as large as THEY allow it to be.

Good luck and hang in there.

FGC

[D]

You mention the Monkey's Paw. It's a great story and I'm sure a fun game (although I've never played). But using that as a litmus test for life is taking a defeatist attitude:

You misunderstand. You said that your mother would change the topic from whining about her troubles to something else if you offer suggestions to actually solve her problem. My reply is that if H or I do that for MIL, she plays a game of Monkey's Paw or ignores the suggestion entirely. Yep. She has a defeatist additude. Me? I just don't wanna play Monkey's Paw, and don't want H to either -- it doesn't stop the whining, it just transforms it from whining about the problem to whining about how no solution will ever work. Not a change for the better at all. Letting her play Monkey's Paw encourages her to reaffirm her own fears and helplessness.

Try to get H to read the chapters on the four types of mothers: waif, hermit, queen, witch. While MIL is mostly waif, there's a lot of hermit in there and I'll bet the witch and queen show up now and then. It helped me to pick and choose those aspects of each of these types as they apply in my case.

One thing I struggled with right after mom was diagnosed was: why if it isn't BPD? She didn't fit neatly into all of the criteria, so maybe it was something else. Then I realized that the clinical diagnosis isn't important. Given her behavior,
whether BPD or not, I need to handle it the same way.

Oh, I'd say that MIL mostly lives in the Hermit persona, with a great deal of Waif and the other two showing up now and then.

As it happens, MIL does fit very neatly into nearly every criteria for BPD. But BPD is supposedly a matter of degree anyway. Like you, I don't think it matters. That's why the chapters of that book I marked for H were just the 'Loving the (insert persona here) without (insert behavior that that particular persona tries to get out of you)' chapters. I kinda hoped he might get curious and read the rest, but whatever. I don't care if he has a diagnosis for her, just that he has tools to deal with her.

try to point out the truth when someone misinterprets our actions, etc.

Do you think it is worth the effort every time? It's like talking to a wall that argues back, tediously and at length. H has, I understand, tried to explain to MIL that her behavior at the 'All New Game-Show, Choose My Suicide!' Incident was out of line, and that my NC is a direct consequence of that, and is not me acting crazy and childish or lacking compassion for her. She actually conned him into believing that he'd reached her, just a little, until I pointed out that her admitting that I might actually feel that way is just another way for her to say I'm wrong. I think he's just decided that my feelings and 'relationship' with her are off-limits as topics of conversation.

(Now he's just giving her basic biographical news of me, the sort of newsy accomplishment one-liners that grandma might put in the family newsletter if there was one. MIL is trying to long-distance re-engagement me with that stuff, sending H home with messages of support like, 'Tell D I'm proud of him.' I'm not moved. But I am a little amused, since I'm sure she really wishes he'd not said no and hung up on her rant about how evil I really am. Probably she's savvy enough to realise that the one crime of hers that H does not feel entirely compelled to forgive is her attempts to drive a wedge between him and myself, and is now busily trying to hide it again. Fortunately, he's not buying it.)

How much should one try to point out the truth? I'm pretty much of the opinion that engaging her in discussion about her false beliefs is actually just allowing her the dialectic space to reaffirm those beliefs. I think saying it just once, and as clearly as possible, with no discussion might be better. Not only because it shuts off her arguments/attacks, but because it might get her to absorb that information without muddying it with her own 'must win!' thinking.

Thanks. And give it time, yes. I just fear that time without progress is time in which old patterns can reassert themselves, or time in which half-measures can become the norm, making moving on to full-measures as difficult and distressing as the change to half-measures has been.

[frustratedgoodchild]

D,

Do you think it is worth the effort every time?

Absolutely not! I don't propose truth-telling as a permanent solution. I see it as a stepping-stone for the non to feel somewhat in control of the situation until he gets to the point that he sees that he IS banging his head against the wall. Then he'll find ways to detach himself more and be comfortable with sticking to small-talk like the weather and the grandma's-newsletter one-liners. The point is to change the pattern and spare yourself the agony of listening to an unending litany of woes. H could try saying something like "Well, we have different opinions on this, and that's okay" and then changing the subject or simply stop responding to her if she wants to continue the discussion.

I'm actually a little surprised that H hasn't read more in UTBM. When I got my copy, I ate it up! It helped me to understand so much of what was going on (way more than just checking off items on a list of BPD characteristics). I wonder whether he really wants to get out from under her or whether he's still very much in the FOG. "I can't take care of myself because what will happen to her?" She'll adapt.

I discussed with sis recently how sad it is to think that mom could be one of those people who dies and no one notices until weeks later. Then I realized that, even if I were still talking to her on the phone once a week, it's likely that the mailman would notice the mail piling up and, knowing that mom is essentially a shut-in, would check into it. OTOH, if mom does die, she's not in any hurry to be found. (I have a morbid sense of humor).

MIL will take as much as she can get. And while no one can truly control their own feelings, we can control our behavior. She needs to be taught which behaviors are acceptable and which are not. She will still feel the same things inside, but she can be "trained" to behavior in a more acceptable manner. Of course, since this is only treating the symptom and not the underlying issue, everything will come exploding out of her from time to time. The key for H is to get to a place where he feels strong enough to handle those crises in a way that works for you and him, and to realize that he actually has very little influence over how his mother feels.

Take care,

FGC