POLL: When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong - Roger Melton, M.A.

[robin]

Thank you for that Christy. I hope I am wrong about him and if so I will be more than  happy to post it in big bold italic typeface.

I don’t feel so compassionate really-just another mom scared for her “little girl” who isn’t so little anymore.

I’m all for educating the world about BPD and NPD and warning signs of abusive behavior, and this article was an excellent one for that. However, I doubt their effectiveness – especially in young people. After all, one of the biggest things many of us here have in common is that so many people close to us didn’t believe the things we said were happening in our lives. It’s sort of  like living in a small town and not believing  a heinous crime would ever happen in your little corner of the world.

Having been so young when I got caught up in all this makes me think not only the importance of educating  the general public about these types of personality disorders but specifically how we can educate the kids and maybe help them avoid this trap in their future. But, I’m not optimistic about the prospect of that being successful-despite MADD’s efforts too many people continue to drink, drive and kill others, and despite the DARE program, I’ve seen too many kids overdose and die on drugs. And, my daughter knows the truth about my situation, but that truth so sick and crazy that she thinks it couldn’t possibly happen to her.

[bulletz]

I just read this article...but I am withholding my opinion until I read what others have to say... what do you all think?

http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm#review

[elphaba]

Most Non's who read this article, have stated that this is pretty much spot on as to how their relationship evolved with their BPD SO.  Many Borderlines who are in recovery and working on themselves have said the same...if you read the sidebar from Oceanheart who is a recovering BPD it is extremely insightful and helpful for we non's to know how the BPD mind works.

But, please feel free to share your opinion, we are all entitled to our opinion after all...

[Mollyd]

I read this article from a different perspective. 

My bio mom is diagnosed bpd, and not actively working any type of recovery program.  I often saw my father, who was her first divorce, engage in behavior with her - rescuing, seduction, then volatile hostility and distance/rejection.  I think the article offers pespective on what my father engaged in, from his perspective. 

The article is useful to me in that I can examine how my parents were enmeshed and engaged.  I can take less personally the behavior of my parents, who engaged so intensely in their drama they often forgot I existed.

Molly

[bulletz]

I read it as a person who is the BPD in the relationship. It reads to me as though the person is saying that the BPD is not really capable of true love due to the way the illness works. I think someone should add some type of notes saying that just because the person is BPD does not mean that they are incapable of real love for the other person.

I have also run this across friends of mine who are not BPD without telling them what I think and they came to that conclusion without my help. One of them also stated " EVERY woman is capable of going through those phases, depending on her focus and intent. " I mean, yes, we are talking about BPD, but I can see people saying that their mate is borderline simply based on these behavioral patterns in a relationship.

[TonyC]

actually ...

behaviors..and patterns dictate meeting critera..

love or masking love is a side effect

[bulletz]

but just because a person displays those criteria does not necessarily make them a borderline. they could just be conniving.

[schwing]

I would agree.  The article seems to make those conclusions.

Personally I don't think someone with BPD is incapable of feeling and expressing love.  HOWEVER, I would argue that the person with BPD's interpretation of what love is, can be very different and in some cases incompatible with what a nonBPD's expectation and experience of what love is.

Part of the problem is, how to define love.  Love is different things for different people, granted.

But read the forums, there are vast examples of people with BPD falling out of love just as quickly as they fall into love.  And the end result is the non is completely shocked and numbed by the (relative to the non) whirlwind changes.  For non, there is a lot more love "inertia," they can't change their attachments that quickly.  And the reasons are because people BPD don't have some of faculties available to them that nons have.

For example, lack of object constancy.  For a non, in a BPD relationship that just ended, they still have residual feelings, in many cases, still very intense feelings for their former BPD partner.  However, IMHO, for people with BPD, those feelings can be gone.  The way some people (ie, me) interpret this behavior is that as long as the BPD doesn't NEED you, they don't feel the LOVE for you and thus they don't appear to LOVE you.   Once the BPD has his/her needs met by someone else, you, the previous non, practically ceases to exist.  Or more likely, you were the worst boy/girlfriend they ever had because of their Splitting behavior.  But in the BPD's mind, I BELIEVE, they fill in the blanks, from their perspective the relationship came to a natural conclusion.  That's how they feel, that's how it must have been.

I also agree that those behaviors in the "evolution of a bpd relationship" are behaviors that "EVERY woman is CAPABLE of going through..." However, I think what would be different when comparing someone who is BPD to someone who is not, would be the intensity and degree to which these behaviors are expressed.

Again, someone who does not have BPD, would have object constancy, so their level of attachment would be more in line with their partner's degree of attachment.  Also, the intensity and variance in their emotional states would be more compatible so there would be much less trauma bonding that occurs.  There would be no or less dissociation, so their mutual experience would be a consistent one instead of the "gaslighting" and "splitting" and "distortion campaigns" that exist in BPD relationships.

I'm sure if you took any specific example, the person with BPD can explain and point out how this-that-or-the-other thing doesn't apply to their relationship.  I would believe that person, because they truly believe that it happened that way.  However, it is very likely that the other person in the relationship remembers a vastly different experience (whether or not the other person also has a personality disorder).  And if you compare these kinds of experience with the experiences of those couples who are NOT in a relationship with a disordered person, that "normal" couple might conclude that the person with BPD is not capable of their kind of (healthy, mature) love.  IMHO.

Schwing

[schwing]

but just because a person displays those criteria does not necessarily make them a borderline. they could just be conniving.

And if they are more intent of expressing their conniving personality, I doubt they are acting on any feelings of love.

[TonyC]

true...

but why would some one want to be diagnosed with bpd...
diagnoses...is for the pros .. and thats a crapshoot...
and after diagnoses...you now have a title for the unacceptables..
then what..


i will speak for my self..
bpd is a title...
long before bpd diagnoses... theres ususally allot of unacceptable behavior... that is two fold... it is delivered..
               and its accepted...

[bulletz]

TonyC:

the point in all i was saying is this:

just because a person is borderline does not make them incapable of actual love

just because a person portrays some tendencies of borderline does not make them borderline


that is all...

[bulletz]

I would agree.  The article seems to make those conclusions.

Personally I don't think someone with BPD is incapable of feeling and expressing love.  HOWEVER, I would argue that the person with BPD's interpretation of what love is, can be very different and in some cases incompatible with what a nonBPD's expectation and experience of what love is.

Part of the problem is, how to define love.  Love is different things for different people, granted.

But read the forums, there are vast examples of people with BPD falling out of love just as quickly as they fall into love.  And the end result is the non is completely shocked and numbed by the (relative to the non) whirlwind changes.  For non, there is a lot more love "inertia," they can't change their attachments that quickly.  And the reasons are because people BPD don't have some of faculties available to them that nons have.

For example, lack of object constancy.  For a non, in a BPD relationship that just ended, they still have residual feelings, in many cases, still very intense feelings for their former BPD partner.  However, IMHO, for people with BPD, those feelings can be gone.  The way some people (ie, me) interpret this behavior is that as long as the BPD doesn't NEED you, they don't feel the LOVE for you and thus they don't appear to LOVE you.   Once the BPD has his/her needs met by someone else, you, the previous non, practically ceases to exist.  Or more likely, you were the worst boy/girlfriend they ever had because of their Splitting behavior.  But in the BPD's mind, I BELIEVE, they fill in the blanks, from their perspective the relationship came to a natural conclusion.  That's how they feel, that's how it must have been.

I also agree that those behaviors in the "evolution of a bpd relationship" are behaviors that "EVERY woman is CAPABLE of going through..." However, I think what would be different when comparing someone who is BPD to someone who is not, would be the intensity and degree to which these behaviors are expressed.

Again, someone who does not have BPD, would have object constancy, so their level of attachment would be more in line with their partner's degree of attachment.  Also, the intensity and variance in their emotional states would be more compatible so there would be much less trauma bonding that occurs.  There would be no or less dissociation, so their mutual experience would be a consistent one instead of the "gaslighting" and "splitting" and "distortion campaigns" that exist in BPD relationships.

I'm sure if you took any specific example, the person with BPD can explain and point out how this-that-or-the-other thing doesn't apply to their relationship.  I would believe that person, because they truly believe that it happened that way.  However, it is very likely that the other person in the relationship remembers a vastly different experience (whether or not the other person also has a personality disorder).  And if you compare these kinds of experience with the experiences of those couples who are NOT in a relationship with a disordered person, that "normal" couple might conclude that the person with BPD is not capable of their kind of (healthy, mature) love.  IMHO.

Schwing

Im glad you got what I was trying to say and that you have understood my issue with the article... I am glad that you can see that I am not just feeling strongly or overreacting. I am a BPD and I want people to understand just as badly as you want to understand... so I had to say something. I still believe that the article should not be so slanted as to say that BPD cannot love for real. Maybe they should add your post to the article so people won't hear the word borderline and run for the hills.

[elphaba]

As our lovely friend Oceanheart explained as a BPD...

So yes, the love is “real”, but only in the sense of how it feels to the person with BPD: the feelings seem real, they feel like love.

But it’s not love because it’s based on need rather than on true caring and intimacy, which is the real love we all deserve.

Sure, you can take parts of the article and apply it to anyone man or woman...emotions are not exclusive to women...any relationship can have these behaviors at times, but, when the traits of BPD are there and when the pattern is there is extreme and continues on a consistant basis...this is not a healthy relationship no matter who you are.

We have many articles here that stress the fact that it does take a pervasive pattern over a long period of someone displaying 5 or more of the DSM Criteria for them to be considered BPD...we can all have some of the traits occasionally and there are varying levels of the illness even when fully manifested.  Those with BPD who are truly able to look at their behaviors, recognize a problem and work on it are brave souls...it's too bad that so few really do...  

Cheers to you bulletz if you are one of those few, and here's hoping that you find the healing and peace with your life and your illness...

[Skip]

I think someone should add some type of notes saying that just because the person is BPD does not mean that they are incapable of real love for the other person.

We did as you have suggested - we added a sidebar several months ago... it was written by a recovering borderline.

There is a lot of interesting history on this piece.  You might want to read what others have said (both non and BPD)
www.bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66844

[bulletz]

Maybe I am reading her response wrong, but as far as I can see it states that she is recovering but that she didn't love either...

[Skip]

I can not speak for the author - possibly she will stop by and respond - but I know she worked on this for a while and there are some very complex thoughts she expresses here:

• she felt like it was love at first

• she later concluded that there was too much of a "need" component (my word) in her "love"

• she learned, through recovery,  how to love in a more giving way...

• ... it was failure at love that motivated her to re-look her life and work on herself...

[schwing]

Hi Bulletz,

Something to keep in mind, this website and forum and links therein, are produced primarily as a support for people who have loved ones (or are getting over relationships with loved ones) who have or might have BPD.

And as I have pointed out previously, because BPDs and nonBPD ultimately have different definitions, expectations, and expressions of love, from the non's perspective, BPDs are not capable of (the non's version) of love.  And since these links for put together primarily for nonBPDs, it's going to come across as "BPDs are not capable of love."

To change these articles to accommodate the viewpoints of people who have BPD (or might have BPD) may very well change the intent and purpose of this very website.  IMO.

Schwing

P.S.  Something else to consider, on your road towards recovery, some ways down the line, do you think it is possible that your definition of love will change to such a degree that would might look back at your history and say that back then you were not able to love (in a healthy fashion)?