Is BPD behavior driven by low self-esteem?

[oceanheart]

Reading some threads here and over at Resouces for Individuals with BPD]BPDR[/url] (the forum for folks with BPD who are focused on getting better), it occurred to me how so much BPD behavior is based on low self-esteem. I'm not talking the transitory doubts we all have at times - Am I attractive? Do people like me? Do I do well at my job? Am I a good person? Do I smell nice and fresh? - but a fundamental, pervasive, and brutal self-hate.

"Good", a non might be thinking about saying to their BP, "cus you're a sht!"

Ok, true. Lots of times.

There are some people who, when they are miserable, seek to relieve their suffering by dumping it on other folks.

There are some people who, when they are miserable, delight in seeing others suffer. There's even a German word for it: schaedenfruede: "dark joy" in the suffering of others. How sadistic is that? It's almost inconceivable for normal, loving people: how could you want someone else to be hurting, especially someone you supposedly love?

But - and this is just my opinion and I sure ain't no expert, but I am a smart cookie - even those horrible witchy/turdly BPs fit into the first category, but not the second. Those in the second category are the ones with NPD/ASD.

Someone here recently posted it was hard for them to understand that BPs are in as such constant emotional torment as they supposedly are. In the BPD literature, I've heard it described as "emotional haemophilia" and like having emotional 3rd degree burns over your whole body. It's like being without skin: every nerve is exposed and so much as a whispered breath on your vulnerable skin causes agony. That's another idea that is hard to grasp, especially given their (our) external behavior. How can someone so mean and nasty actually be hurting that badly? Are they really hurting that badly? Gimmie a break, they can't be hurting that badly!

Say you were in a war - no disrespect meant to the veterans here on FtF for the following analogy - and during combat you received shrapnel. Forget the logistics of it and say that a sliver of metal got lodged deep inside your body. After you recovered from the major wounds, you went on with your duties and your life. But slicing at the tender tissue at the very core of you was this piece of sharp hardness.

At first, as you're healing you think the pain is from the visible wounds inflicted by the explosion. But as you go on, you notice it's not going away but is actually getting worse. You don't know what's wrong - you're not aware of the presence of the sliver, the xrays didn't pick it up somehow, it's as if it's become so much a part of you that it's akin to your own bones or muscles - something you're made from.

It hurts all the time, in a fundamental, deep-down place. You can't get comfortable, every position makes it hurt more. You can't sleep because it's always present. You can't ignore it and live your life. You don't know why you hurt but no one else seems to be bothered by pain like yours. It doesn't seem fair: how they live their lives and seem happy and have no idea what you're going through. Half of them don't believe you when you tell them how bad it is. Many seem not to care. And those who do care can do nothing to ease your pain.

You are wounded and you want it to stop but you don't know how to make it stop and you lash out like a scared child or a wounded animal because you don't know what else to do. You only know you want it to stop.

I realise this may not make much sense to people. I don't feel this way. But I once did. It wasn't just the sliver inside, which for me was from childhood events (and other people had more than just slivers - they had chunks of metal inside from what they had to go through). It was that everything reminded me of what I didn't have: a sense of being acceptable and a good person and worth loving. Every action made it hurt worse inside.

I'm very introspective today, I'm not quite sure why. It's a really lovely day outside actually. Probably many of you don't want to hear this right now, about how many people with BPD are suffering. That's ok. I'm not asking for forgiveness - well, not for anyone but myself, maybe. Right now I'm struggling to remove as delicately as I can that sliver. It calls for me forgiving others whom I'm reluctant to forgive. But not forgiving is like pushing the sliver back in, isn't it? And that's madness. And poison to my system. So, I'm taking it out. Because I want to be healthy. Because I love who I am. Finally. I've almost got the darn piece of metal out, too.

In the end, I think that's what it'll take - somehow coming to love ourselves (nons & BPs alike - hell, the whole darn world, too) and realising that the explosions we set off to maim ourselves and to wound others, are injuring vulnerable, feeling, and real human beings.

[minion]

Oceanheart,

As the mother of a daughter who is too young to be diagnosed but suffering nonetheless, I appreciate your ability to put into words what a person with BPD thinks and feels. The more I understand, the better chance I'll have of finding a way to help her.

Thank you for your openness and willingness to talk about your own experiences.

And yes, it is a beautiful day today.

[turtle]

Oceanheart --

Thank you for posting this.  The idea of BPD is still very, very difficult for me to wrap my brain around and as usual, your insights give me a tiny vision of what it must be like for the BPD sufferer.

I'm glad that you are doing so well in your recovery.  I sure wish that the bpd in my life would've given recovery a try, but he did/would not.  He chose to stay disordered over me (or anything remotely postive.)  I think that's the hardest part about all of this for me is that he is miserable, he knows he's miserable, he's grown comfortable being miserable, he hates himself and makes no bones about that, his life is a shambles, yet he will do NOTHING to help himself. I used to grieve about that, but as time has gone on, I've moved on with my life.  By refusing ANY help at all, he left me no other choice.

You are a gem, Oceanheart.  I think it's marvelous how you can come here and read all the things we say and still offer such insight.  

I'm sooooo glad you're here.

Turtle

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[waylander]

one of the things she used to say to me is , i have low self esteem , if i told her how i felt about her , she said why, i think after reading here i learned that she does not like her'self so how on earth could i tell her she was beautiful , still makes me sad, and sadly i still have anger , although as i learn and stay no contact my anger get's better , i am trying hard to learn about myself as well , meeting her has been a real wake up call for my life as well , never did i think i would be on a site like this posting reading and learning , all because i loved someone who never even liked her'self , life is full of twists and turns , cheers... w

[Bitzee]

I always knew his pain, Oceanheart, I always did.  And I held His terror inside me;  I couldn't handle it.  He was once such a beautiful little boy.  It wrung my heart.  I mean, I always saw that child in there.  I don't know how he managed to go on with so much fear inside him.

Well, anyway, he nearly destroyed me.  And he would do nothing to help himself.  I had to leave him... and he tore me to pieces.

I guess I'm just saying I always understood his pain, but that didn't deter him from lashing out at me.  And my understanding half drove me mad.  I couldn't afford to understand.  I couldn't afford to empathize with this person who was intent on hurting me.  You have to turn it off in self-defense.

I am so glad you were able to find the worthiness inside you that motivated you to seek help.  And I'm so glad you are here to show everyone that recovery really can happen.

[renaissance]

oceanheart, yes i would like to think that you're in great company here. this isn't a group of people here ranting simply because they hate the current or former bpd-sufferer in their life, but because we all seek understanding. personally, i'm filled with utter grief and compassionate feelings for what unspeakables my former partner endured to acquire bpd, but even those here who profess a hatred towards their formers are just hurt..perhaps lacking understanding they just lash out. you have over 200 posts..you're not ignorant to these facts..i just want you to count me as another who doesn't know you from adam, but is pulling for you in your own recovery. certainly we "non's" are far from perfect..most are co-dependent or have some issue or another - no one gets out of this life unscathed. anyway, i digress..just wished to say keep up the good work. prayers and blessings to you..   

[johnhoffman]

Oceanheart...My exubpdgf talked openly about her low self esteem and seemed to use it as a tool for gaining reassurance...my only wish is that she would have talked openly and honestly about the rest of her past /issues...at the end of our 4 year relationship she came very,very close even talking about BPD...the trouble was that (in my then ignorance of bpd) her past was catching up with her and she was confronted about a number of infidelities/misdeeds from several directions(mine included)...I think it became too much to face and even with my avowed support she turned and ran to the next guy then shortly the next again!...in my brief encounters with her after this her shame was palpable..youcould really feel it!

I,ve got to the point now where I,m moving on...it hurts to know any more of her "dark" side...and in a way my hurt is no different to her shame ...neither of us wants to face it...she,s human like me and I would.nt want to experience 1%of her constant shame/ pain...I think she tried unbelievably hard to make a new life with me...but she did,nt follow the path of truth from the beggining and it eventually caught up with her...dragging her fragile self esteem back to the bottom of the chasm

I hope one day she see,s a way forward and if so and I,m priveleged enough to see that I will point her to your example...for youare a very special person...you seen and lived both sides of the mirror and in this world of billions you are one of a handfull

Have a great christmas

John

[suzani]

Oceanheart,

My exbpdbf had the classic BPD childhood.  He had been told for so many years that he was awful, ugly, lazy, that his birth was the cause of everything bad that happened to his BPD mother, that he was just broken.  He had so much shame.  In the last few days before I left him I remember holding him while he cried and saying, "no shame, no shame".  He was ashamed of things he had no reason to be ashamed of.  I have very low self-esteem and he continuously slashed at it.  It was projection from him, but I believed I was as bad as he said I was, except when he attacked an area where I have confidence in myself. That's when I could see that something weird was going on.  The way that I believed his criticism must have been what it was like for him when his mom projected her pain onto him.

I convinced him to see a psychiatrist and a therapist trained to help people with BPD, but he works hard to keep people from seeing what is wrong with him, he is very smart and convincing, and although he did admit to me that he was in pain, and has told bits of his experience with his mom to his T and Dr., he blames his anger, drinking, etc. on me.  He won't admit that he is BPD, he is afraid to show anyone the sliver of metal that is torturing him.

It has broken my heart because I can see what he could be if he recovered from the trauma.  I suffered so much when I was with him, and in the 4 months since I left. I've posted many times here about the things he said and did to me.  But I hope some day he will get better, as you are.

best wishes,

Suzani

[eggshell]

Oh yes, their self-esteem is lower than most people can even imagine. It's not a self-esteem like, "My hair is ugly," "I need to lose weight;" It's a low self-esteem that runs to their absolute inner core, where they want to punish themselves for being "so awful," which they think they are. Their misery then floats over to us. My ex literally did not love himself at all, but I think sometimes he tried to. But I think that he felt like he had no choices, and he didn't seem to know what to do. All I know is that he always seemed really sad, and always seem to hate himself- in a way that was much worse than just someone with low self-esteem. This was a hatred to the inner core, where he could never let anyone else love him, and never let anything good happen to him, because of fear. His brother said to me after we broke up that he left me because he couldn;t love me the right way, and the reason why was because he did not love himself.

It breaks my heart because I saw the good in my X, and I always thought that he would be an amazing person. Sadly, he did not see what I saw. All he saw was ALL of the horrible things that he thought about himself. Because I saw so much good in him, he labeled me as crazy, and a whole bunch of other things. He didn't believe me.

[waylander]

god, the more i read the more i remember,she said , i can sit in front of the mirror for hours and think im ugly, i dont see what other people see, she always thought i was mocking her when i told her she was beautiful , very very sad...w

[NHBeachBum]

My exBPDgf had similar low self-esteem issues. I couldn't understand why cuz I had thought she was so perfect. It makes senses now. Yes - she too was/is in a lot of constant pain & torment. When I tried my best to help & be supportive, she tried her hardest to push me away & out of her life. I can't imagine carrying around so much baggage for so long. That's why I've really done my best to try to separate her actions vs. her. I do attribute her abusiveness to her illness (and constant pain) & not take it personally. I don't even hate her - like others I'm simply sad when I think about it. But life moves on. No one can fix her but her. I think that's what is so frustrating & maddening about BPD. The person who has it seems to be in much misery & pain...yet the can't seem to healthy enough to be able to make a good choice to start the process of healing in order to reduce the pain & help their self-esteem. I get it now...I understand how much time, effort & pain is involved to help heal...but staying with the status quo just doesn't seem to the best option.

-NHBB

[Happykat]

 

I have no doubt my BPD parent has pain - something terrible definitely happened somewhere.  I get so agravated that BPD parent will not do anything productive to try and help self - or anyone else - self-esteem is not something that comes from another person or out of the air - I say you need to do things you are proud of and feel good about yourself.  At least that is how it works for me.

[Bitzee]

It goes way back... if they do not identify with being 'Bad'... then their abuser was the 'bad' one... but their abuser was the Parent... that the child depended upon for Survival.  The child must see himself as bad in order to survive.  In their minds, their very life depends on their self-loathing.

They must hate themselves in order to survive.  This is one reason why it is so difficult for them to seek help.  They do not believe they deserve it.

[eggshell]

Oh yeah... mine told me before we were even together that even if someone told him he was good-looking, he got mad because he was sure they were lying.  : I should have known... but I can't beat myself up.

And Bitzee is RIGHT ON.

I tried so hard to get my X to get help, but he always said that he will never change, and he didn't think that anyone could help a monster like him. He always called himself "crazy" and a "psycho." Imagine truly thinking of yourself that way? I mean, seriously... if I thought of myself that way... I would hate my life, you know? He really thinks of himself like that. He seriously cried most EVERY NIGHT. That was a huge red flag... he cried about himself mostly... and losing people he loved...and how he was such a monster but no one could help him... he always said that he didn't think that anyone would ever be able to help a monster like him.

Imagine calling yourself crazy, monster, and psycho on a regular basis?

It TRULY is sad.

[oceanheart]

What I hear in everybody's posts - and I'm not talking about just those posts in this thread, but in all of FtF - is a desire to help. People sometimes ask if it's hard for me as a person with BPD to hear the angry things said here. Yep, sometimes it is, especially when the concept of "evil" is mentioned. But mostly it's not, because under all of the hard emotions - the bitterness and resentment and anger and hate and the rare viciousness - is hurt, just like renaissance said. And that's the tie that binds us all - non, BP, co-dependent, abuser, innocent bystander: to be human is to hurt. But what's even more human is to want to help. That is the best in us and we can be at our best even when life around us is at its worst.

When we see suffering, we wish to ease it because we know what it feels like to hurt. As nons, that makes us vulnerable - both to predatory people and to those who are not strong enough to handle their own pain and who thus put it onto others. It's both noble and a folly to want to help.

I'm convinced there is one thing above all others that will "save" people with BPD, and that is to be helped. Although, for some reason, right now I'm getting a very clear mental picture of a bomb defusal expert...

The "abysmally" low self-esteem I mentioned previously is from the inability to form a coherent, positive sense of self. I'm interested in bonding/attachment failures as one of the causes for this, but don't have a lot of scientific evidence for my opinions. People like minion and other parents I've read on the board genuinely care about their children and have raised them lovingly, so it's not just through abuse that BPD can develop and I hope it's clear that I'm not of the "blame the mom" camp: the reasons are complex and may never fully be understood.

What happened to the child happened. It can't be undone. But - and I think I'm a purty good ole example of this - people can change, tho I don't know anyone who has ever done it on their own, no matter how strong that person.

I'm not sure I know where I'm going with all of this. I'm sorta just dumping everything out there that's been in my head, so it's a bit of a mess - kinda like what the living room floor looks like after Christmas morning...     !

How do we reach someone who is convinced they are worthless on a fundamental level? This plays into a recent thread/workshop about the twisted thinking of people with BPD. The main categories of beliefs are: 1) I am not good; and 2) other people will hurt me. This is what they believe, no matter the "evidence to the contrary": no matter how much we tell them they're lovable or beautiful or wonderful, no matter how much we take from them to show them they're worth it. Like so many of you said, they do not hear it, they do not see it, they do not believe it. Because they (we) can't.

I've struggled since I first came to this board between two impulses: one is to tell every non here to run away as fast as they can from the BP in their lives. That it isn't worth the destruction to themselves to stay. That the non can't help the person with BPD anyway, because it's up to them to change and they have to want to change, and they have to be willing to work hard, and most folk won't. The other impulse is to say: "if you are strong in yourself and are wearing an emotional flak-jacket, so to speak, then use your compassion to help this poor creature who is in so much pain." I still don't know which I believe. Both? Is that possible? I guess at least I'm not thinking in black & white anymore, . I can see the pain on both sides, I guess because I've been on both sides.

2 days ago was the 1 year anniversary of when I met R., who was the person I came to FtF about. Undiagnosed, not in recovery, a covert alcoholic, delusional, aggressive, sweet, smart, funny, hurting. A little boy in a big man's body. He was dangerous and our relationship was toxic for both of us, so I left. I'm over the emotional connection I had with him, but I ask now - looking back, as is not uncommon at this time of year - what did I learn with him and how can I use that knowledge? What have I learned in my 2 years of recovery? What have I learned in my 9 or so months here at FtF?

The urge to help others is what is so fine about us as humans (me included! Yay, me, I'm a good person, too! Sorry, just a little light-hearted self-cheerleading). The tendency to put ourselves in harm's way to do so can be courageous. It can be foolhardy, too. It might also be ineffectual: we can't, like happykat pointed out, give them a sense of self-worth. But somehow, there must be a way to harness our empathy to encourage them finding it themselves. Several people have mentioned mirrors. I use the analogy of holding up a mirror for the BP to see themselves. Mirroring back to the BP their inherent worth, the value they have just from being human beings. From that fundamental foundation, they can start to act in ways that will prove to themselves they are good.

Thanks, everyone, for exploring this with me... (and if you've gotten this far, for sticking it out with me... )

~amahoro~salaam~shalom~spokoj~pax~peace~

[oceanheart]

I wanted to add - no, I'm not done talking yet,  : - in furthering the thought "From that fundamental foundation, they can start to act in ways that will prove to themselves they are good", that it is through our actions that we define ourselves: we are what we do. So let's do some good, eh?

[Bitzee]

Oceanheart,

Yes, I wanted to apologize by saying it is not always abuse which is the cause, not always parental abuse, and not always intentional abuse on anyone's part.  They say it is a Biological Predisposition plus an Invalidating Environment.  The invalidation may be purely due to unfortunate circumstances that happen to occur, or just a poor fit between the temperaments of the parent and child.  Say a child born with a very sensitive temperament to a parent who is not particularly emotional by nature.  I do believe the causes can be very subtle at times and Invalidation, for whatever reason, is the key.

I've often wondered if post-partum depression is present in the beginning of some cases.  And other disruptive circumstances in life that 'just happen' at key periods in the child's development may be responsible.

I had a relative dx'ed BPD and Bipolar.  There were problems with her birth, lack of oxygen.  The hospital records mysteriously 'disappeared'.  She was slow in her development from the beginning.  Her parents split up when she was 6 months old.  Her mother had a reactive depression and was occupied with restructuring her life during her daughter's infancy.  This child was always slow and Extremely emotionally sensitive.  She was signiificantly below average in intelligence.  I think only a very together parent could have overcome these obstacles and Learned How to be Validating to this child.

This child had a biological disadvantage and was born into an environment which was in a state of flux.  Her mother did try, but it was back in the day when even the medical community seemed somewhat clueless.  She did not receive proper information and support.  Her daughter was not accurately dx'ed until her thirties.

So, yes, there are many causes... many different factors which can lead to invalidation... and the parents are not always at fault.

[Happykat]

But somehow, there must be a way to harness our empathy to encourage them finding it themselves. Several people have mentioned mirrors. I use the analogy of holding up a mirror for the BP to see themselves. Mirroring back to the BP their inherent worth, the value they have just from being human beings. From that fundamental foundation, they can start to act in ways that will prove to themselves they are good

I have been trying this with BPD parent - but it is like anything I say he has an excuse as to why that won't work, too much work, etc. etc.  Bottom line - it is EASIER for him to be lazy and not try to change - he should not have self esteem for that.  It seems very difficult to find the line where it is the illness or maybe just meanness.

[ian]

Hey Oceanheart, what a beautiful post! I believe what you say is true because I could even feel those feelings seeping into my own brain from being around my ex. Though, I never thought to see how much she was abusing HERSELF, what SHE really thought of herself. Maybe if I had seen that I would have felt less of a target, I would have known it wasn't about me.

In this situation the non-existant self esteem was generally exhibited by extreme pride, a complete inability to compromise, a literal belief in never being wrong about anything, about being better than everyone, deserving everything. It was so completely bizarre I remember one day I said "Aren't you ever wrong about anything?" and she told me "No never." with a completely straight face. Of course I knew that someone who really felt good about themself would never have to resort to such dysfunctional egosim.

You know, it may be the biggest issue on this board, can we help them? The concensus is No, and from my own experience I know that I did everything I possibly could and it just destroyed me. Again and again it felt like a complete lost cause. How could I say anything when I was always devalued, painted black, or whatever i said or did was taken to be hostile, or just completely forgotton or erased? There was no way to get through. Absolutely none, because if I wasn't helping her dig her own hole (at my expense generally), playing along with all the lies and all the pretend, then my input was worth nothing.

I would like to think that most BPDs can be helped, and that at their core's they are real caring people waiting to be discovered. And yet, how can anyone help someone so committed to self-destruction? It seems that what most conclude the only helpful thing we can do is to leave them to the consequences of their actions and hope someday they really hit bottom. This is what I did, the only thing I could do besides handover my soul.

I've made it sort a motto of mine to only help people who are helping themselves. Recently one of my freinds who is an alcoholic started drinking again as if it was no big deal, and soon I felt like I was being used to make her feel better about what she was doing. I got pretty mad and I don't really talk to her anymore. With some either you help them destroy themselves, hell ensues, or you leave them. The only options are black or white. It's like the truth is on one side and they are on the other and you they won't move in the slightest. The only way to stay is tell them what they want to hear and live a total delusion.

 I'd like to think there is another way, as do most of us here.

[oceanheart]

I sure wish that the bpd in my life would've given recovery a try, but he did/would not.  He chose to stay disordered over me (or anything remotely postive.)  I think that's the hardest part about all of this for me is that he is miserable, he knows he's miserable, he's grown comfortable being miserable, he hates himself and makes no bones about that, his life is a shambles, yet he will do NOTHING to help himself.

I'm thinking the last part (which I bolded) is because 1) it's hard for anybody to change deep-seated and long-standing behaviors and thoughts; 2) he literally may have no idea how to help himself because maybe he wasn't taught in childhood to be independent or competent; 3) he may believe he is not worth helping, that he is an utter piece of sht and thus is beyond help; and/or 4) his defense mechanisms - denial, projection, B&W thinking - all conspire to make it seem as tho everyone but himself is to blame.

What a twisted life. It's like setting fire to the house while you're still in it and then sitting in your bed waiting for the flames to consume you because you don't know how to get out even tho there's an open window right there, and then attacking the firefighters when they come to rescue you from a fiery death...