BPD BEHAVIORS: Dissociation and Dysphoria

[Up From Here]

Thank you for this workshop.

This is helping me understand much more about the things that went on and as more time goes by, and as I read these things, the hurt diminishes with more understanding and compassion takes its place.

As I read through the definitions and mechanics of these dynamics, I can get a better picture of my ex-wife, with her cutting, burning, eating/purging, distorting, etc.  I used to watch her energy shift while processing her thoughts, sometimes mid-sentence, and given that I was going to be the recipient of whatever was coming next I'd go on a kind of alert as I'd never know what "it" would be, until it came and it was pretty unnerving to observe.

This explains these things clearly for me as well as a time when she actually had a different surname for the volatile side of herself that she said, got her through traumatic events earlier in her life.  The surname wasn't tongue-in-cheek at all and was (may still be) a very literal part of her identity and perceptions and she would occasionally ask me to interact with that "other person," by taking with her.  I did lovingly talk with her "other" a couple of times but was pretty uncomfortable doing it as my instincts told me there was more to this than I was aware of nor did I want to be aware of it.  That was my shortcoming and I told her so.  I'm not qualified for this but my heart is going out for the experience and in a new and better understanding not only of my own experience, but of hers as well.

My compassion is growing and I can't thank this place enough for this. 

Again, thank you for this workshop.

UFH

[tired_mom]

my BPD/PTSD/MDDd (17) has frequent bouts of dissociation, she often says this happens this during therapy sessions and cannot remember what was discussed during that time. she also mentions not remembering her actions or what brought her to a self harm episode. it happens other times as well. this workshop gives  me some insight to what she is experiencing when she dissociates. i have been in her presence and seen her "check out", as i have started to recognize these signs, i try to bring her back to earth, "grounding" its called, by speaking to her in calm manner, to get through with request of her to be aware she is in a disociative state, having her touch something with her fingers etc - which engages tactical sensors(?) in her mind. it only helps when i am near and see what's going on though.

can anyone explain more about Dysphoria? I do not see it addressed really in this thread even though in is in the title of this Workshop.  this term is often linked with my d as well. i have also been reading some about PMDD, as we have been noticing she typically (5 times out of 7) ends up in the hospital near or during the onset of her menstrual cycle.

[an0ught]

Dysphoria as I experienced it: for about two years my uBPDw was not able to laugh at all - no smile - nothing. Of course she was able to laugh when with others but when alone or with me - none. It was energy draining and emptiness - void. We stopped having sex as she would just cry afterward. It slowly built up over two years from sadness then to emptiness to despair to suicidal thoughts to suicidal gestures. I'm not sure what really caused it.

Then a psychotic phase of 2 months started aided by hormones - stay away from levonorgestrel. It belongs to the class of synthetic progesterone. Progesterone itself can make depressions worse (and is naturally produced in the second half of the cycle). Levonorgestrel also binds to the androgen receptor. This can turn a normal BPD into a BPD on steroids - literally. She was hours away from a padded cell. 48 hours after removing the IUD she was back to her dysphoria normal.

The dysphoria  slowly vanished over the next year and I'm not sure what really caused that either.

Myself I'm still a bit depressed and exhausted from all these years of BPD around me and I experience joy a little bittersweet and damped. But this dysphoria of her was different and scary - somehow looking into total blackness. All light absorbed without any effect.

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[sigmasister]

Can you expound more on "depersonalised sex".  What do you mean by that exactly?

[Oldsoldier2411]

I have been studying this condition for a while now and been perplexed by what I have read. My daughter has idicated to a therapist that she "zones out". Some , I have read suffer increasing periods with this part of their lives. I have read that this is a common occurrance with BPD. I have also rear that there are ways to ground yourself when it occurs. Some use ice cubes. Are there other ways when for instance you may be out shopping and you don't have access to ice cubes? Are there any signs to watch for? I know with the rages that sometimes follow that they can be almost instant. I know from past experiences with her mother that can be horrifying, as though you are looking into the face of someone completely different to who you have got to know. I still bare the physical scars of my ex-wifes rage. Do they really suffer from amnesia or are they trying to distance themselves from what they are capable of during these episodes? I have been brought up by parents to look for reasons not excuses. Do we sometimes distance ourselves from the sufferer to guard ourselves and in doing so validate the sufferers abandonment? I am still looking for answers, maybe there are some of you out there that can help. Thanks

Ian

[JulySky]

I, too, look for reasons, Soldier, and have been reading and researching our daughter's sickness for quite some time.

A therapist at the first facility our daughter was placed at in her terrible teens called me up and asked if there was anything I should mention that would help her understand our daughter. (By this time I knew what our daughter had said about us after bolting to another state: beatings, letting our youngest play with fire, sitting around all day and doing drugs, etc., etc. One of my sisters told me how believable our daughter's lies would be to people who don't know us.)

But then I thought back and recalled her 1st grade teacher calling us because our daughter didn't respond to the teacher's lunch-bell voice, again and again.  Our daughter was lost in thought while working on an art project.   

Our daughter day dreamed a lot.  But she was so creative, a straight-A student (genius IQ), and a sweet and lovely person until adolescence.  Her art work is amazing, and she can write.

The first BPD sites should disappear.  Our daughter was never abused.  She, and her three siblings, have always been adored.  I was actually grilling another child to determine whether any of our relatives or friends or daughter's fleeting boyfriends had done something wrong. But then anyone witnessing my brother's or cousin's antics, before he died, would think that they were raised by monsters.  They weren't.  Something is clearly very wrong in their wiring.

I'm wondering if the "zoning out" is some sort of epilectic seizure.  My girlfriend years ago suffered a grand mal at my house.  Upon awakening, she was exhausted.  The first thing she asked was how much time had elapsed.  BPD, as far as I'm concerned, like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, autism, major depression and ADHD, is genetic, with a constant, but low-grade storm in the brain. The rage is the seizure, the "zoning out" are the petite mals.
 

[sad but wiser]

Just a question - are we sure that all of the people being diagnosed with BPD really have BPD?  Just as autism was an umbrella until we started seeing that it wasn't always autism, etc.  Is it possible that there are onsets of BPD that are actually something else that looks similar?  A viral infection and allergic reactions can look pretty similar at times.  There are only so many ways that the human body reacts physically, only so many symptoms.  Is that true for the emotional/mental state as well?  If you look at Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, you find black and white thinking and ambiguity, both of which show up in BPD as well.  How about Dependent Personality Disorder?  It looks really similar to BPD in many ways.  It does seem strange to have a good chunk of diagnosed people who had no known significant early childhood trauma.

[Oldsoldier2411]

Just a question - are we sure that all of the people being diagnosed with BPD really have BPD?  Just as autism was an umbrella until we started seeing that it wasn't always autism, etc.  Is it possible that there are onsets of BPD that are actually something else that looks similar?  A viral infection and allergic reactions can look pretty similar at times.  There are only so many ways that the human body reacts physically, only so many symptoms.  Is that true for the emotional/mental state as well?  If you look at Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, you find black and white thinking and ambiguity, both of which show up in BPD as well.  How about Dependent Personality Disorder?  It looks really similar to BPD in many ways.  It does seem strange to have a good chunk of diagnosed people who had no known significant early childhood trauma.

I would agree with you and that is why I have been doing a lot of research. I would also say that sometimes that the "experts" can be to quick to dismiss the input from families and friends. The reason being that they do not always seem the problems during their assessments. This canbe due to only seeing the sufferer for a short period of time but families see them for much longer.

Ian

[lbjnltx]

Hello again OldSoldier,

Do we sometimes distance ourselves from the sufferer to guard ourselves and in doing so validate the sufferers abandonment?

One of the ways we can help our children become more grounded is to take care of ourselves mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. How are you taking care of self?
Here are some areas to look at:

Attending therapy for yourself.
Healthy value based boundaries for self.
Having support of family and friends.
Living a balanced life.


We need to look at our role in the relationship and see where we can change to provide the best mental and emotional environment for our children. 
Here are some skills to consider:

Understanding the disorder, how it manifests and what the underlying needs are.
Communication...   validation, SET.
Keeping the problem where it belongs while being supportive (validating questions).
Learning DBT skills for nons.

These are the basics.  What areas do you see needing the most attention or understanding at this time OldSoldier?

We are here to help!

lbjnltx

[Oldsoldier2411]

I have read that there are over 250 variations to the BPD diagnosis so what one parent may see in their child may not appear in an other. This makes the research more challenging to a parent. Over here in the UK the policy of listening to parents is dismissed because THEY bring emotions to the table. The "experts" do not give out much info to the parents either about what the diagnosis is and how to cope with the problem. The diagnosis is kept "in-house" and only made known to their own health professionals i.e. social services and such. Your questions are valid as many of the sufferers have co-morbid conditions. My daughter came into the house one day and showed the signs of Bi-polar with rapid speech. As this is not one of the criteria for BPD then I had to ask the people I know for the answers. Rapid or pressured speech is part of bi-polar AND can be seen in a full diagnosis of a condition along with BPD. So when you add this to the equation the variables are increased.

I would say and have said to a psychologist recently that they may be having some failures because they have been far too quick to dismiss. I was pleasantly surprised when she agreed even though a lot of her colleagues don't share her opinion. Here we maybe making inroads but some are still stuck in the misconception of 15 years ago. As America is the leading country into research on BPD I have had to gain my info mainly from across the pond. However, I came across a NGO that has been passing the latest information and studies to government departments and services but was keeping the general public out of the loop. This, I believe is to avoid the stigma to the sufferer but in doing so has put the stigma or blame on others. I have a family member who is a policeman and some friends from the Army that became policemen who have never heard of BPD even though it is more common than bi-polar which they have heard of. I asked them what they do when they come across these people and was told that social services invoke "not in the public interest". This usually involves the sufferer being moved to another area and if a child or young person then moved to another foster home. This again, I believe is adding to the fears of abandonment by validation. Last year we had a 2% increase of children taken into care. A figure of over 67,000.

Ian

[Oldsoldier2411]

Hi folks, I didn't see this thread til just now, and thought I'd add my perspective. From what I've read about dissociation (& derealization) there can be chronic and short term dissociation. Neither are amnesia-like usually, but the person's perspective is altered so, memories can be different than what others remember.

I have had chronic dissociation since my childhood. I remember exactly when it became permanent, but am no longer sure how old I was. Until recently, I thought I was 11 or 12, but now I think I must have been 8 or 9. I was very scared when it wouldn't go away, and told my dad, but it was never discussed again. Soon, I just accepted it as me, and didn't think about it for years (decades?) at a time. (I'm 43.) I had no idea what it was until a few months ago.

I assume that everyone who has this is slightly different. But I'll try to describe my experience. It's like living in a 3-D movie that I can interact with. It's not my senses per se, but it is more centered on my vision than hearing or touch. If I close my eyes, and concentrate I feel closer to reality. When it first began it was episodes that I could 'pop' out of. I would have to concentrate really hard on something that I could see, and 'convince' myself that it was really there in front of me. When it worked, it was like a light switch. 'Pop'. All at once, everything became more vibrant and 'closer', if that makes any sense at all. Imagine wearing tinted glasses all day long, then taking them off.

When it became permanent, I couldn't pop out. It was late in a chaotic day, and I was very tired. And I thought that maybe it would just be gone in the morning. It wasn't, and I could never get out again.

I will say that I am very emotional, even though I am chronically dissociative. It's hard to for me to imagine that this blunts my emotions, though I guess it does. (Scary thought.) Now that I know what my problem is, and that it is possible that I can break free from it, I'm trying to do that. I am also now aware of 'the veil'  most of the time. You'd think I'd have known this before, but the intensity varies quite a bit. I have come close to breaking through once, and I was suddenly terrified, and pulled back. Other times I feel that it's very 'thick', to the point that it's hard to concentrate. (It's similar to how you might feel under severe sleep deprivation.) That has happened most frequently as I read books related to BPD, sometimes when reading here, and when I'm with my T.

Anyway, I hope this helps someone understand more what chronic dissociation feels like. I feel like I've 'outed' myself. This is not something I've talked about much. My dad when I was a kid, and my H and my T just recently. I didn't go into this kind of detail though. Frankly, it so weird and hard to understand and embarrassing (?), that it's not something that most people would want to know about anyway.

Alana

Thank you Alana for your comments. I would like to say that you have been very brave to mention your experiences with this part of your condition. I have no doubt that it can be very embarrassing and I for one appreciate your input from a first person perspective. If we as parents/loved ones/or such are not aware then we can be very worried what is causing the problem. As most of us here seem to indicate that stress is the main contributor to the episode. When I have mentioned as to "experts" I don't ONLY refer to the psychologists but also to the carers and I include the sufferers. So, thank you again Alana.

Ian

[DesertChild]

I noticed that my mom and other abusers tend to say to things their parents did to them, "I never did that."

My Mom repeated many behaviors she said her mom did to her. And then when I pointed it out after the fact she often denied she ever did anything like that...  

Is there a second trigger point I'm missing with this kind of dissociation?

Personally, on my side I tend to forget when people yell at me, which triggers an eventual puppy dog response. I can't and often forget what they did to make me upset, so then the story slowly changes that I was the one that did wrong.

I realize this is a mild form of dissociation...   but it's really slow. When I'm arguing, I feel present, but afterwards, somehow the events change in my head. For me, who has been semi-conditioned into this state it probably explains how I stayed in destructive relationship for so long.

I don't really talk about it, but I had a really severe episode. It was kinda odd because it was like watching my own body. The practical voice in my head was watching and trying to sooth the other side that couldn't move. I haven't figured that one out.

In my case, it seems dissociation has caused me a lot of personal harm. I'm struggling against myself to stay present in high stress situations and to remember what actually happened.

I understand the triggers for dissociation in that way, but I don't understand the repeating behaviors thing as well...   in another words triggering themselves...  

[Oldsoldier2411]

A question that has popped up from this thread. Some have mentioned "alters" and how they have changed names and personalities. During a talk to a therapist she (my daughter) mentioned that she wanted to be known as "Sez", her birth name being Sarah. Is this a subtle change where by she had her "alter" take over? Does it have to be say, Tom to Fred or Helen to Mavis, before it is an "alter"?

Ian

[Oldsoldier2411]

I came across this piece of information contained in a document published by NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH AND CLINICAL EXCELLENCE (NICE) here in the UK. As we know, many variations of BPD exist. This makes diagnosis difficult for clinicians to come to an accurate diagnosis. But sometimes families see other problems that the sufferer does not and sometimes does not show at times of diagnosis. As I have mentioned that the variables are significant in BPD, Throwing other conditions (comorbidities) into the mix add to the variables (statisticians may be able to come to a more accurate number). Is one controlling the outcome of the BPD sufferer?

Over here in the UK, the numbers given to sufferers as being less than 1% (I believe this to be higher due to the fact that not all sufferers are referred to a psychiatrist by health professionals to avoid the label of "stigma". This may be due to the age of the sufferer or even to the gender. But whichever way, this can deny the sufferer the help they desperately need.


"Comorbidities
Borderline personality disorder is a heterogeneous condition and its symptoms
overlap considerably with depressive, schizophrenic, impulsive, dissociative and
identity disorders. This overlap is also linked to comorbidity and in clinical practice
it is sometimes difficult to determine if the presenting symptoms are those of
borderline personality disorder or a related comorbid condition. The main differences
between the core symptoms of borderline personality disorder and other
conditions are that the symptoms of borderline personality disorder undergo greater
fluctuation and variability: psychotic and paranoid symptoms are transient, depressive
symptoms change dramatically over a short period, suicidal ideas may be
intense and unbearable but only for a short time, doubts about identity may occur
but are short-lived, and disturbances in the continuity of self-experiences are unstable.
For each of the equivalent comorbid disorders there is much greater consistency
of these symptoms".

Ian

[Oldsoldier2411]

A follow up to my last entry.

"DIAGNOSIS
Borderline personality disorder is one of the most contentious of all the personality
disorder subtypes. The reliability and validity of the diagnostic criteria have been criticised,
and the utility of the construct itself has been called into question (Tyrer,
1999). Moreover, it is unclear how satisfactorily clinical or research diagnoses actually
capture the experiences of people identified as personality disordered (Ramon
et al., 2001). There is a large literature showing that borderline personality disorder
overlaps considerably with other categories of personality disorder, with ‘pure’
borderline personality disorder only occurring in 3 to 10% of cases (Pfohl et al.,
1986). The extent of overlap in research studies is particularly great with other socalled
cluster B personality disorders (histrionic, narcissistic and antisocial). In addition,
there is considerable overlap between borderline personality disorder and mood
and anxiety disorders (Tyrer et al., 1997; Zanarini et al., 1998)".

Ian

[Oldsoldier2411]

Further information.

"Prevalence
Although borderline personality disorder is a condition that is thought to occur globally
(Pinto et al., 2000), there has been little epidemiological research into the disorder
outside the Western world. Only three methodologically rigorous surveys have
examined the community prevalence of borderline personality disorder. Coid and
colleagues (2006) reported that the weighted prevalence of borderline personality
disorder in a random sample of 626 British householders was 0.7%. Samuels and
colleagues (2002) found that in a random sample of 742 American householders the
weighted prevalence of borderline personality disorder was 0.5%. Torgersen and
colleagues (2001) reported a prevalence of 0.7% in a Norwegian survey of 2,053
community residents. Despite methodological differences between these studies,
there is remarkable concordance in their prevalence estimates, the median prevalence
of borderline personality disorder across the three studies being 0.7%. Only Torgersen
and colleagues’ 2001 study provides detailed information about the sociodemographic
correlates of borderline personality disorder. In this study, there was a significant
link between borderline personality disorder and younger age, living in a city
centre and not living with a partner. Interestingly, the assumption that borderline
personality disorder is over-represented among women was not supported by the data.

In primary care, the prevalence of borderline personality disorder ranges from 4
to 6% of primary attenders (Moran et al., 2000; Gross et al., 2002). Compared with
those without personality disorder, people with borderline personality disorder are
more likely to visit their GP frequently and to report psychosocial impairment. In
spite of this, borderline personality disorder appears to be under-recognised by GPs
(Moran et al., 2001)".

The last paragraph, I believe, supports my theory as to the extent of the condition.

Ian