PERSPECTIVES: "Red Flags" and how to choose healthier partners

[Think About It...]

Thanks to all of you for the encouragement.  I am learning more every day, and have been really surprised at how much of a hold my BPD man has had on me.  I thought it would be much easier to simply mentally digest the fact that this man has a major mental handicap, and cannot love in a healthy way, and that I have to walk away.  I get this completely on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level it is a real uphill battle.  I will picture all of you with your thumbs up when I see a re-engagement coming on.   I love the t-shirt message in the reply.  Robb, as always, you are there to help everyone.  Thanks to you and everyone.  Betsy

[Betsy]

Thanks to all of you for the encouragement.  I am learning more every day, and have been really surprised at how much of a hold my BPD man has had on me.  I thought it would be much easier to simply mentally digest the fact that this man has a major mental handicap, and cannot love in a healthy way, and that I have to walk away.  I get this completely on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level it is a real uphill battle.  I will picture all of you with your thumbs up when I see a re-engagement coming on.   I love the t-shirt message in the reply.  Robb, as always, you are there to help everyone.  Thanks to you and everyone.  Betsy

[foiles]

OK.  Here's a few things to look for and maybe to do yourself.  I only put 'he' but it could refer to a 'she' in most cases also.

1. TAKE IT SLOWLY.  Don't go out more than 1 day a week for several weeks.  If asked, don't provide details- I'm busy this week or I can't that night should do it. No one should be prying when first dating.  No sex until you are sure this is possibly a long term thing.  Sex tends to drop our guards and we start a more intimate relationship, become 'attached' more easily. Don't talk on the phone every day for awhile.  See how the person reacts to this.  If they are healthy, they will follow normal boundaries.  If they get upset this early on about you having a 'life', watch out. 

2. Go to public places.  See how they act and treat other people.  Do they question someone looking at you or you looking at someone else?

3. When discussing past relationships - are the break-ups always the other person's fault?  Do they have some understanding of the past relationships and their part in it?  Do they belittle past SO's without a clear understanding that it takes two? 

4. How do they get along with their family?  Friends?  Do they have any? 

5. Do they press for intimate details of your life and reveal theirs (are theirs somehow portraying them as a 'victim', eliciting sympathy?)?

6. Do they talk about a history of violence or behave in a violent way (angry, easily upset?).

7. Do they try and convince you to change your plans?  Or in any way control your behavior?  Are they rigid in their sex roles, how women should be submissive? Or belittle women in any way?  Do they try to change your beliefs?

8.  After a few dates, do they 'set you up' by saying something about how different you are? 

9. Do they shower you with idealized praise?  Do they bring you inappropriate gifts or do things that are not normally done early on in a relationship (mow your lawn, etc.)?

10. Do they question you on intimate details?  Demand to know where you have been?  Why it took you so long?  Why you didn't call them/email/etc. back immediately?

11. Do they question why you didn't invite them to the party/office get-together/etc.?  You have the right to do things alone. 

12.  Do they want to know if you have ever cheated, lied, etc.? 

13. Are they full of sob stories?

14. Are they full of themselves?

15. Do they seem like the 'perfect man' or 'too good to be true'?

16. Did his father hit his mother or was he abusive?  Or was his mother?

17.  If online, did he lie in any way on his profile?  Height?  Weight?  Job?  Place of residence? Smoking?  Anything.

18. Is he still attached in any way to an exSO?  Why?  Does he have a strange friendship (maybe enmeshed with someone in a weird way)? 

19. Does he drink too much?

20.  Although self-employed or temporarily unemployed doesn't mean anything in and of itself, it may mean they can't handle adult responsibilities.

21. Is there someone in their life that 'takes care of them'?  Do they ever talk about how people in a relationship need to 'take care of each other'?

22.  Do you become their 'soulmate' early on or is there talk of early commitment or marriage?  Do they 'love' you after 1 month or less? 

23. Are they overly emotional or overly cold?

24. Does he 'know best' or can he 'teach you things'? 

25.  Does he get strangely upset if you don't wait for him to open the door for you or do some other 'kindness'?

26.  If you don't tell him everything, are you lying to him?

27.  Does he show up unannounced?  Or does it seem like he is trying to 'feel you out' or catch you in a lie or is testing you? 

28.  Be sure of yourself.  KNOW that you will walk after the first strange episode.  No one's perfect, but having to say that to yourself early on to convince yourself that you should give them another chance is a warning sign. 

29. Are you bored?  Good.  No drama.  Give that a chance!  They may not end up to be your cup of tea, but after a BPD relationship, a perfectly great, fun person may seem boring at first.  That goes away. 

There's no way of knowing what someone is like at first.  My exBPD would put down someone he said that was 'controlling his wife'.  Oh the irony.  You can't always tell by what they say.  Listen to that feeling in your gut. 
I'm sure there is more.  There are a ton of websites that will list characteristics of a 'loser', many of them are signs of BPD or other character disturbances.  They are good refreshers.  Knowing who you are, building your self-esteem, learning what real 'love' consists of and what it doesn't when you go into dating is the best chance for success (and by success I mean staying out of an unhealthy relationship).  I looked for someone that was clearly into personal growth, could honestly state their faults and what they have done to better themselves.  It's the rare person that doesn't have any (or non-existent).  Even then, I looked for actions, not only 'words'.  My ex 'said' a lot of things-like he didn't want any drama for one and someone who was 'real' and didn't lie.  Ha Ha Ha. 

Good luck!  Be careful out there!

Foiles

[OneTrickPony]

Can you all suggest anything possible to look for in the first few dates with a new person, which might ferret out any potential mental health issues before we get involved (remembering how good many are at hiding these issues), without appearing ourselves to be interrogating our new dates.

Betsy,

Here are a few guidelines I have learned to live by:

I listen for empathy and the acceptance of fault in conversation. These are two
things that disordered never display or accept. Blaming and deflecting are hallmarks
of disordered thinking.

I listen for introspection. It's been my experience that disordered people have little or
no capactiy for examining their own behaviors, for considering the things they leave in
their wakes, nor any real concern for spirituality (not necessarily in a religious sense.)

Listen for clues about their family relations. If you hear lots of derrogatory remarks about
family members, obviously stories of neglect or abuse, how OTHER family members have
issues, but not them, I consider these to be red flags. A well adjusted person does not
make light of the weaknesses of others, especially their family.

If a person comes on a little too strong, a little too fast with overly complimentary language,
or pushes your boundaries early in your dating. Being "crazy about someone" doesn't mean
acting in inapropriate ways.

Just my experience.

OTP

[Honey]

Folies does cover everything.  I am sure you would be more safe then sorry if you abided by all her rules.  Being I have only met/dated/known of one BPD in my life I dont really think my chances of meeting another are that great.  I do know this.  After my 4 year relationship with my BPD exbf I am not the same person and can look at a person now and see more where they are coming from then what I want them to be.

I don't want this bad relationship to make me gun shy or to put of his mental illness cause me to treat other people less then they deserve.  Just as I don't want to be non trusted just because your last girlfriend cheated on you.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? This board is for members with failed or failing relationships that want to detach from their relationship and relationship wounds. If you are still analyzing the decision to stay, please post on Undecided: Staying or Leaving All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)

[El]

Hi
I can add  that from the first meeting i had feelings
1. He was TOO MUCH ( express too much emotions,  he took too much my space and time,  he demanded too much.  
Everything was TOO MUCH
2.  And another thing which i noticed from the first meeting- SYNDROME POOR ME,  emotional blackmail.
OF coz i was not blind but i had a lot of doubts, maybe he is dramatic because he has hard times, problems with health and another blah blah
IT WAS THE HOOK FOR ME.

[DearStarling]

 

9. Do they shower you with idealized praise?  Do they bring you inappropriate gifts or do things that are not normally done early on in a relationship (mow your lawn, etc.)?

 

29. Are you bored?  Good.  No drama.  Give that a chance!  They may not end up to be your cup of tea, but after a BPD relationship, a perfectly great, fun person may seem boring at first.  That goes away. 

Ok, aside from EVERYTHING above being right on, #9 made me stop breathing for a sec! Mow my lawn? CHECK! omg omg omg He sooooo did that. And other things. Like, the third time we hung out. And I just thought it was the sweetest thing. DOH!  :P

As for #29, I am kicking myself right now. I "dated" this guy a few times the last time me and BPD broke up. I remember telling my friend how "boring" he was. He was so "vanilla" I said. I did realize how awesome he was...having his own house and car and stable job and had a great relationship with his mother. But he just wasn't "my type." If only I had read this before! Not to mention I thought about him just yday and text him to see how he was doing. No response. Man...sometimes I wonder if I'm not the one with some mental issues...oiey

[JoannaK]

Remember that those who are "too good to be true" may have a greater chance of being problematic.

Also, Betsy, for you, please read through the Workshop on whether or not you are ready to date again.

http://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69783.0;all

[Mollyd]

All this stuff is good - and regardless of BPD or not, the things listed are problems if they are happening.

One thing I didn't read that I think can be a flag is about consistency.  My experience was things going really well, then without any cue or obvious cause, the person being really agitated (bailing, angry, treating you poorly for no apparent reason, etc.).  BPD is a disorder where there is no consistency - it's a sign that most people aren't fooled by if they look for it.

Molly

[OneTrickPony]

Chronic negativity - this is actually the phrase I used in my original search for what was wrong with DB...otherwise refered to as an Eyeore complex...

I chuckled when I read this.

The Google search term I used was "Chronic Unhappiness."

I had no idea what BPD even was.

A few clicks later, I landed right here and the light bulbs
lit up like the 4th of July.

OTP

[OneTrickPony]

One that I am finding to be a really red flag is that they've ended a marriage or relationship because the "passion" died. And, of course, they were never the passionless one. It's always the other person.

I have heard this one about three of four times on dates. I think it's code for gimme, gimme, gimme, and keep it comin' or else I'll have to face my own demons.

It sounds more "normal" than the soul mate/knight in shining armour thing, but I think it's right up there in its wolf's clothing.

Ya...passion is nice, but I think we all know it falls back to Earth after the initial oceanic love/honeymoon phase. And what's so bad about having a good, solid companionship in a relationship?

--J

Jeff,

I think you're right on the mark, here.

I met my ex on Match.com and her "dating headline" was:

"WANTED: PASSION AND COMPASSION"

Of course, I had never even read an article about PDs and
especially BPD, so, I had no idea that her advertisement could
have just as well read, "WANTED: PORN-STAR SEX ON DEMAND AND
A DEPENDENT PARTNER WHO'LL PUT UP WITH MY BEHAVIORS."

The "lack of passion" and her ex-husband's "abandoning their
marriage" were two among many ever-changing reasons she gave
for her divorce.

I was lazy enough to overlook those things and go head-first
into it without giving any of her words a second thought.

If you listen, they will tell you that they're disordered.

OTP

[TonyC]

in my opinion/experience...
the first hour of conversation...will divulge... allot...

like when your talking...to whoever he/she is there are thing said...
that make you want to say can you repeat that? cause it hit a nerve..
and you know when it happens cause thats the point of conversation,,where you fight off making a face...

and maybe your looking for BPD.
how about you unearth things you just dont like...

kinda ike this..

your talking sipping drinks.. and then she starts telling you... about the ex hus.. who owes her money, and her kid thats always in trouble at school... and she hates the neighbor..., and her boss is a turd..
and her pants are too loose,and she hasnt had sex in 18 months... and shes nervous about this or that,,

you know what... i basically heard enough...im seeing drama..
BPD who knows... we /i are not therapists or councilors..

so i think maybe if you just look at things at face value... you will be ok..
tony

[wannabhappy]

DS your right; this exdate had me on alert with dramatic statements and egotrip behavior, then he redflagged all over the place with his stories (him being 'hospitalized for paranoia during his hacking days', and him 'suffering for 6 years becos he fell in love with a girl that was not single'   ) so I called it off, and then he showed some real pathetic actions. So I could not resist giving him that 'test'  

And I very much agree with you Tony, we shouldnt care about what label the date might be carrying, if it smells like drama I want to go for the exit, cos there s really no fun in that (and we all know where it could lead to  ). And for the less obvious/annoying ones (gotta love that little date-example you wrote) I really find the list foiles made and some of the other suggestions here very very useful!

[FloatOn]

Great thread. The night my uBPD ex and I met, her friend told me "she said you're going to be her man and you're going to buy a big beautful house together". I honestly don't know if we'd talked for more than 5 minutes at that point. Yes, her sister told her all about me I'm sure, but yikes!

[GlennT]

Wowwow! Thank-You Skip.   We all needed this. It never ceases to amaze me how many red flags our exes had in common because of this pernicious disease. Threads like this are one of the many real blessings of this site. 

[Lost in Wonderland]

1.  INTENSE EMOTIONS THAT WERE MISTAKEN FOR LOVE 
2.  PREVIOUS ADMITTED ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR
3. said he would have never married anyone until he met me
4. I was his soal mate, the only one who could understand him
4. caught in white lies (that i didn't call him out on)
7. explosive jealousy
8. constant calling/checking in
9. must be around me all the time
10. started isolating me
11. found faults in all my friends/family
12. made me feel like I had a problem
13. didn't realize he was manipulating my self esteem
14. MOST OF THE OTHER WARNING SIGNS EVERYONE POSTED! I JUST DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER. 

There are so many warning signs I missed until it was too late. 

[MtnClimber]

Too depressing to respond with a list.  Can I just say "see above?"  Peace.

[thomaso61]

OMG...I love the post thoughts...LMAO 

I've been outta mine for almost 3 years..Lemme jog my memory.

1. The intense high energy..(she's on fire)
2. trapping me in an elevator and other places telling me how much she liked me ( totally flattering eh?)
3. telling me I was her "soulmate" but didn't know it yet..(really, could it be?)
4. No coke but intense sex, toys and went to shop for more together (dam, I'm in heaven we must be soul mates..YAHHHH!)
5. telling me she hugged and sniffed my pillow when I was gone (wow, she must really love me)
6. House full of reptiles and two cats ( Dam, I love a woman who has a passion!)
7. taking clonipin on a regular basis and popped about 4 before taking her board exams. (wouldna knocked me out and didn't phase her)
8. telling me her husband as controlling and a porn freak. (Not me, I'm even tempered and a good guy)
9. Obsessed with her looks and getting ready for anything. 

These are just the red flags. All the other crap that ensued after finally committing to her then began to creep in.

Soulmates...



 

[August]

Jealous of women in my past.

Drinking daily but never drunk.

Changing stories of us, to fit her perception.

Clingy.

Its flattering at first to get so much attention, but then you worry about the rabbit! (Fatal Attraction)

[an0ught]

8. No win situations. (What do I do here?)
9. Gaslighting (I could have sworn I told you about that. Wait a minute,  I thought I did.)
10. Wild Accusations about me having an affair or having met someone else. (I can't beleive she doesn't know how much I love her. She's been cheated on before, give her time she's freaked.)
11. Constant threat to end the relationship. "I want a divorce. I can't take your moods anymore." "You need to move out . . ." "I want a separation" (Oh no! Although lately . . . . hmmmm)
13. She forces me to accept blame and responsibility for the most absurd things and then doesn't accept the apology.

I'm totally detatched now and trying to do this with love but it's tough. It drives her nuts and leads to plenty of counter moves. Finally starting to set boundaries to see if it actually works.

8-9. Stay calm. Don't try to win. They are so much better at that game. Admit it, tell her she won, she outwitted you head she wins, tails you loose. Refuse playing games.

 10. Validate her fears as intense feelings. Pause. Acknowledge that you know how important this to her is. Pause. Acknowledge whatever observation sent her on that trip as a correct observation if it is. Pause. State the truth in a short concise sentence, look into her eyes. Pause long. Leave it at that - don't continue. Do not repeat.

 11. At least for me one of the biggest realizations of discovering BPD was that they fear abandoment and tend to projection. I also read some statistics that show that BPDs marry less but divorce less too. And they tend to re-engagement. For me this turned my weakness i.e. I loved her and wanted her to stay into a power position as I now assume that most such threats are empty. This gave a lot breathing space and the option to force tougher discussions on her which did us both good.

 13. Never apologise for something that is not worth apologising. YOU MAKE IT WORSE. You re-enforce their reality distortions and confirm that either you did something or it is ok to get ballistic on a minor issue. (In case you did wrong - admit it, apologise. But realize you are in a hole and stop digging whatever she does.)

 Detachment - to some degree you need it but you have to realize that you may make it worse that way too. Detachment may be sensed and interpreted as abandoment.

Read up on validation - it does not require a lot of energy (you are exhausted and that is very natural in your situation --- btw. how does that feel  ) and can be used is so many daily situations. Besides having short term effects I start thinking it now also is transforming some dynamics.

[Shane Preston]

and then she starts telling you... about the ex hus.. who owes her money, and her kid thats always in trouble at school... and she hates the neighbor..., and her boss is a turd..

LOL, Tony! My boss isn't one, but his boss is.

I think I just pink flagged myself...

Shane