"Snuggling" in bed with the kids...

[Think About It...]

On the fence about contacting on this one, again, with the sole intent of having a nastyassed reply come back for the "file."

The boys are 6 & 9 and during discussion at dinner last night, they spoke of "snuggling in bed" - not only with Psychex, but on occasion with Psycho-SIL (who's dreams of motherhood are realized vicariously through the boys).

This bothers me.  I'm slightly conflicted... very slightly... because I'll pile on the sofa with the boys when watching a show or something and they'll be laying in each of my arms as we chill and watch the show.  At night, I'll give them a big squeeze and a kiss before wishing them a wonderful night's sleep.  Nothing more than a few minutes of hanging out, sometimes on the bed.

"Snuggling" (in my paranoid mind regarding PEW) is something more and not something we haven't read about here countless times before.

Bottom line... it's gnawing at my soul.  I don't like it.  I asked them a few questions but tempered them because I didn't want them to get the feeling that I was interrogating them... and then let it go.

I know that my emailing my objection will accomplish nothing (short of getting the reply I'm expecting, which is what I want).  I can't know what constitutes "snuggling" in the boys minds and I don't want to ask them to describe it, for obvious reasons.

My question is... a short blurb which will prompt a nasty reply defending her actions, perhaps even describing them (as she sees it, may not be of any significance) - or let it go?  I was thinking something along the lines of...

I think that your getting into bed with the boys and "snuggling" with them is highly inappropriate at their ages and could be harmful in the long term.  You should consider being cautious about continuing with such behavior.

Of course, my other concern is that she'll freak on the kids or otherwise instruct them not to share such information in the future, putting them in the middle yet again.

Help me sort it out, please.

[Mr. M]

On the fence about contacting on this one, again, with the sole intent of having a nastyassed reply come back for the "file."

The boys are 6 & 9 and during discussion at dinner last night, they spoke of "snuggling in bed" - not only with Psychex, but on occasion with Psycho-SIL (who's dreams of motherhood are realized vicariously through the boys).

This bothers me.  I'm slightly conflicted... very slightly... because I'll pile on the sofa with the boys when watching a show or something and they'll be laying in each of my arms as we chill and watch the show.  At night, I'll give them a big squeeze and a kiss before wishing them a wonderful night's sleep.  Nothing more than a few minutes of hanging out, sometimes on the bed.

"Snuggling" (in my paranoid mind regarding PEW) is something more and not something we haven't read about here countless times before.

Bottom line... it's gnawing at my soul.  I don't like it.  I asked them a few questions but tempered them because I didn't want them to get the feeling that I was interrogating them... and then let it go.

I know that my emailing my objection will accomplish nothing (short of getting the reply I'm expecting, which is what I want).  I can't know what constitutes "snuggling" in the boys minds and I don't want to ask them to describe it, for obvious reasons.

My question is... a short blurb which will prompt a nasty reply defending her actions, perhaps even describing them (as she sees it, may not be of any significance) - or let it go?  I was thinking something along the lines of...

I think that your getting into bed with the boys and "snuggling" with them is highly inappropriate at their ages and could be harmful in the long term.  You should consider being cautious about continuing with such behavior.

Of course, my other concern is that she'll freak on the kids or otherwise instruct them not to share such information in the future, putting them in the middle yet again.

Help me sort it out, please.

[JoannaK]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...  This is a tough one, Mr. M.  As you are considering, if you bring it up to her, what difference will it make?  Will she actually think about her behavior?  Will she moderate her behavior?  Or will she mad at you and at the boys for telling you?

Perhaps just watch and see how they act...  better, worse, indifferent...

[the end]

I know what you mean it is perfectly normal for parents to do many things with younger children, eg, sleep with tnem, shower/bathe with them, dress them celanse their bodies for them...but when dealing with a pers disorder person those routine behaviors approach the level of concern.

My DH is a truck driver and one of the joys he had was taking the kids on overnight runs, but had to give it up for the sake of appearances because the issue of "sleeping with" the children has potential to be problematic, AS IF when is sleeping in a bed in a house the same displaying inappropriate boundaries,the same as an overnight in the truck sleeper bunk, with DH usually driving?, even so the bunk is full size and it is no different than camping, becuase of my psycoassX the kids are denied a fun and interesting experience... not to mention quality time with DH and his co workers etc.  

In my case x often sleeps with the children dd5 and ds8 tell me so, they'take turns' sleeping with dad...the older 3 wont admit it but the younger tell me its true.

I didcussed this wT and she discussed options approaching it w/ds8 esp on ways he could feel more comfortable sleeping alone, maybe using a large stuffed animal, rolling up a blanket next to him. I wnet along with the concept of helping ds develop coping and verbal skills to help him organize the concept in his mind (I on the other hand wanted to tell son , "its wrong, innapopriate, he needs to sleep alone, etc." ) On the other hand I  cuddle and snuggle, it isnt unusual for kids to pile on the bed in the AM and on the sofa w/DH and myself sometimes.


So I think noting and documenting is good, verbalizing boundaries and directing kids to self help is probably the best approach, I dont think there is any benefit what ever to telling PE anything, 'Oh your daddy says I cant cuddle you any more... :' you know her response to the kids.
I think you have the advantage in that they are boys and more likely to follow your lead.

Discussion and role playing about personal boundaries may be timely for the boys.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board? The focus of this board is about understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are divorced, please go to Rebuilding our Life. If your topic is mostly about legal/custody issues, please go to Family law, Divorce, and Custody. If your topic is mostly about the other parent and you are still married, please go to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner. If you need help moving a thread, please contact a moderator. We are glad to help. :)

[Oy-vey!]

DO NOT GO THERE WITH HER. 

Your best avenue of response is to teach the boys excellent boundaries - what is and is not okay to do.  There are many many books on the subject of appropriate "touching" and the like.  Work with them without ever mentioning their mother, but let them know without making an issue of it that parents cannot be inappropriate with them either.

You've been wanting to engage with her more lately.  What's up with that?

[csandra]

Nothing good can come from engaging with this woman.  You could tell her to stop sticking needles in her eye and she would tell you that it's all your fault for making her think about it. 

 I feel strongly that agitating her unnecessarily will only make it worse for your boys, in the long run.  Also, I think that it might embarrass them for you to confront her on this particular issue.  I agree that you should demonstrate healthy boundaries.

 I am sure that you are still working out the kinks in having them with you for longer periods.  The reality is that there are two separate households, each with different values.  If the boys indicated discomfort with mom's demonstrations of physical affection, I would coach them to respectfully detach.  Isn't this what it is all about anyway ?  We need to teach the kids how to relate to someone that we have already given up on.  They need to develop self preservation skills because surely the NPD/BPD parent will never put the child's needs above their own.

I struggle with the transitions between 2 homes and my child is 17 !  In my heart I believe that I am right, he is wrong, she is better off without him.  In reality, there is little choice but to send her off to be with him.  If I come off as suggesting that her time with dad is always suspect or of lesser value than with me, I am only hurting her. 

She has little choice but to deal with his defects of character.  I don't want her to ever avoid talking to me because she is afraid that I will say something to dad and get him all upset.  In my case, it's a lot better to gently encourage her to stand up to dad than to be resented for coming to her rescue.  Besides, the few times that I DID intervene were absolute disasters.

[Matt]

You talk to her too much.

(Sorry, just had to say that.)

Seriously, my kids are 9 (son) and 11 (daughter).  They do need hugs, and they decide when and signal me.  I don't know what goes on when they are with my stbX, but without really clear signs that something is wrong I think I can't do anything about it.

I wouldn't worry, from what you have said.  At those ages it doesn't sound unhealthy.  If she frequently let them sleep with her, then maybe.  But my son (9) sometimes, when I tell him to go to bed, brings his favorite blanket and pillow to my room and builds a little next on the other side from where I sleep.  (It's a big bed.)  And without a word, goes to sleep there.  I look at it as a need to be close to me, not a problem.  (Recently he has started sleeping in my old t-shirts, both when he's with me and when he's with stbX.  Again, I think it's a sign but not necessarily a problem.)

This is probably something you just need to accept and keep your eyes and ears open but don't over-react.

That said, if there was a neutral third party involved, like a custody evaluator or GAL, I'd sure mention it to them.  But I think in your case there's nobody like that right?

Best wishes,

Matt

[alf]

Mr. M... I agree.  This seems at the margins.  Of concern, yes, but absolutely wrong... ?  I cannot say, but I do know that this falls at the borderline but still within potentially acceptible behavior.  In my case, the Ex would "allow" (encourage) an 11-year old boy sleep in bed with her.  That crosses the line and my objections (which were termed as "not wanting to meet the child's needs"     this issue was one of the final nails in the divorce coffin.  So I have put up with this BS and have tolerated more of this than I should.  From this perspective, my reaction is to encourage healthy behavior in your home, listen very carefully but do not interogate (as you said).  If you detect a substantial increase in the dissolution of appropriate boundaries by their mother, that might be a time to push.  Hope this helps... alf

[kellaroo]

I would say and  send  NOTHING for two reasons.

1.  I snuggle with my kids.  Son is 10 and Daughter is 12.  I will lay in bed and tuck them in and tuck them in and we will chat about the day.  Sometimes when I wake them up I will lay on bed and "spoon" them and gently tell them to wake up.  Nothing inappropriate about it.  Its "our" comfort zone.  (now if sons were saying it makes them uncomfortable, then I would find out why).  Same as you, when we watch a movie we snuggle, either on couch or sometimes, two kids, me and bf on our king size bed.  Again, we all love it, and nothing inappropriate about it.

2.  I think you are reaching here.  Although you may be correct with your gut instinct and may be something to keep in back of mind, but if this were just for your "file" or her "file", it may bite you.  If it was ever brought up in court they would say you are trying to micro-manage her time and behavior.  They may find this a petty complaint as well.

I absolutely hear where you are coming from MR. M.  I went through this with my exh, because he was sleeping NAKED!  (and you know the history with his dad and my kids).   Childrens services investigated.  NOthing happened.  He denied and said he might have once but would never do again.   Court said nothing.

I think it will be more trouble then its worth at this point.

Let it go.

[kellaroo]

This it totally food for thought...and I may be way off base but ...

Do you think that you putting so much energy into a blog about your PEW is causing you too think too much about her?  Don't get me wrong, I think the blog can be quite witty  (ie. side order of boiled bunny?) But it just seems to me that you put alot of energy and mind space on your PEW and the injustices of men / fathers and her behaviors.

You may be no contact or minimal contact, but you spend alot of time thinking about her.  And although it may be helpful for some people, I just can't imagine putting so much of my life... into my ex.   There are so many better things to do.

This is not meant to be critical but just food for thought.

[salt]

I agree that normal snuggling becomes something else in the land of the BPD. 

And I would be concerned, too. 

I just think you would be better served by talking with the boys and reading books about healthy physical boundaries, their bodies being their own, and that they have the right to sleep alone if they so choose. 

[Rose]

I'm with the others -- don't bring it up. 

When this was happening with our skids, we talked with the skids directly about what's normal, what's not, especially as they got older.  I remember, one time, when my SS16 was about 10 years old, came over to our house after school, blatantly just exhausted.  He said that exBPD made him sleep on the floor next to her, to keep her company.    And, it was our SS(10) who was upset about this.  My DH put his energies into helping SS deal with it, and that's when things *broke* between SS10 and exBPD over the sleeping issue.  (Now, don't ask me about SS18, that's a whole other situation, as you know even last year I heard about an instance where SS17 hopped into her bed after having a bad dream. Argh.)

In any case, no good can come from it.  Your exBPD will probably use that to say, "see children, he really doesn't know how to show affection, and just wants to come between us.  This is what I was married to -- he's so controlling.  Who does he think he is, telling me that I can't love my children?"  And that's exactly where this will go, exactly placing your kids in the middle.

[non-non]

I'm with Kellaroo on the thing about your blog.

I regulary visit you blog, I love it!  I'm very entertained by it.  But I'm wondering whether sometimes you are looking for material to make it more interesting...  Sometimes I want you to antagonize her so that I can see how mad she really gets. I was quite disappointed when you didnt send that mail that justified your thoughts on the TV wrestling dispute.   But that was purely for my own entertainment to what her response would be.  I think I might be a bit sick - sorry!   

Anyway - I agree with the others about responding to your fears.

The only advantage to responding to the "snuggling" issue is that it will be something more to write about on your blog. There will be no real life issues resolved.  In fact it will probably make things worse.

nn

[ForeverDad]

My stbx slept in our son's bed for the 3 months before our separation and he would occasionally mention since then that he sleeps with her.  For years she had our son hold her breasts "for his comfort" after she stopped nursing him at 16 months.  If that's not emotionally incestuous, what is?  It was on papers I filed in court.  I told my lawyer.  I probably told the evaluator too.  I know I gave him those papers I filed in court, I gave them to CPS as well.  No one batted an eye.

Yes, it really stinks that lousy behaviors are tolerated or people turn a blind eye.  In my state parents are ordered to maintain separate bedrooms, so I would have thought that meant the kids were to sleep there most of the time, right?  But I agree with the others, what will it accomplish?

[Mr. M]

Nah... it's not about the blog at all, I can assure you - I have enough "material" to keep it interesting for a long time to come.  And in the last 3 months, I've only "wanted" to engage her 3 times.  Once was the unsent email bomb when I was just frustrated.  #2 - the WWE situation which to me rose to a "level of concern" regarding the kids for reasons previously discussed.

This has more to do with the experiences of others' along the same lines here creeping into my psyche.  That's why I figured I'd ask before acting.  Prevailing opinion has settled me down a bit in that a "watch and see" position is the one to take.  I appreciate the feedback.

[mmm]

I think it has more to do with the "why" of what makes her want to sleep with the boys, and what they are learning from it. She can't be alone, ever. She always has to have someone with her and she is teaching the kids that they will always need her, and not in a healthy "I'm your Mom and I'll always be here for you," way. We are seeing the signs that the kids simply can't be alone either or away from family. They have no independence, and the sleeping thing is really the beginning of it. Of course it's also sick in our minds because the oldest is literally the size of a man, at only 9 years old, and it's literally like he is her boyfriend.

[ForeverDad]

I've often commented here that I was rejected and replaced, not by another man, but by our son.

It stinks.  It sucks.  It... I don't say those kinds of words.

[JoannaK]

Wait a minute...  are they snuggling in bed... perhaps right after waking or right before the kids go to sleep.. or are they sleeping in the same bed witih her all night?  Do they have separate beds at her home?  By the time kids are school aged, they really need their own bed...  This is not the 19th century out on the farm when bedroom space was at a premium and people needed to sleep together for warmth...  even then, the parents slept separately from the kids.

If she is sleeping with them all night all or most of the time... if they don't have they own beds or use their own beds, it is an important issue to address, it can't be ignored... though I'm not sure how. 

Emotional incest, which is what sleeping together often indicates, is extremely damaging to those kids. 

[Mr. M]

Based upon what they volunteered, it could be a little of both... and with both Psychex and her sister, too, from time-to-time.

[csandra]

That is just weird about the aunt being so physically expressive.  I consider myself an involved, caring aunt to my nieces and nephews but besides an occasional hug when greeting or leaving, I keep pretty thoughtful physical and emotional boundaries...especially as the kids get older. 

It will be interesting to see how she reacts as the boys quite naturally develop some boundaries as they spend more time with you. 

[funefarm4]

So been here, SOOOOOO done this.

You need to smack this one down HARD immediately.  Let me tell you I was like you in the beginning.  I did not press it...then, it began to get totally toally out of control. I felt something was odd...but I didn't want to make waves...then my daughter came home bleeding from her vagina the first overnite visit.

Daddy concocted a little game called "bed bugs" where they played "hide and seek" in the bed with their eyes closed. He would touch them and try to guess which part of the body he was touching.  Guess which parts got touched? Honest to Gosh. Why do we need to do this during the day when you have several acres of land to play on?  There is no need to be playing in a bed.  I had the talk with the kids--you need to talk with your kids too. 

I talked with a psychologist friend of mine.  The "snuggling" part is an attempt by an inappropriate person to break down the barriers that people feel when their personal space is violated. 

I'd bring it up. I'd set the tone, and I wouldn't be nice, but remember, I've seen where part boy went with this, and I do have PTSD, so you know, maybe I'm going overboard?  But, I'd be OVER this one. All OVER it.

Something along the lines of--it has come to my attention that you and psycho aunt spend time in the beds of our children.  This is inappropriate to say the least.  I ask that you immediately refrain from this.  If I hear again that this inappropriate behavior continues, I shall have no choice but to involve CPS in the matter.


It is wonderful for people to show affection to children.  There is NO reason why anyone needs to show affection to a child in a bed, especially during a high conflict divorce/custody situation.

I respectfully disagree with the others here.  It's not about what it would accomplish. It's about setting a firm boundary here with PEW.  I made the mistake before with my own kids, and they paid the price.

[Matt]

I wonder if there is a way to get a neutral professional involved in this discussion, Mr. M.  Somebody who can hear your concerns and frame the issue properly for her, and check back to see if reasonable boundaries are being observed.

My thinking is that if you address her directly she'll push back because you both, um, hate each other.  But if a neutral, trained third party is involved it can be more about appropriate boundaries and not about all the baggage.

Most of us here say "It's not necessarily a big deal" but Funefarm says "Well it might be".  How can it be handled so you don't assume one way or the other?

Recently where I worked there was a rumor of sexual harassment.  Management, including me, did not have enough information to take strong action.  So we posted a notice stating company policy regarding this issue, and made sure everybody saw it.  The rumors died down.  My own guess is that the rumors were at least somewhat valid and that posting the "boundaries" got the attention of the individual responsible, without ever making an accusation.

I see this as analogous:  Not "You are guilty" but "Here are the boundaries".

[funefarm4]

I agree with Matt-- it's about the boundaries.  NOT the guilt.

Set the boundaries high, and remain firm.

It MIGHT be something, but then again it MIGHT not be.  You don't want to make any wrong assumptions either way--your kids are too precious.

[kellaroo]

Funefarm...that "game" your exh plaed is totally aweful. My stomach turned.  But I think its something different that what Mr. M is talking about.  I realize, as well as lived it with my own exh that in the land of BPD, all norms are thrown out esp. with bed routine and normalcy.  And as a parent, it leaves a sick feeling knowing that kids "MAY" be put in those types of position, but without more evidence of anythign other than a gut intinct, it gets pretty dicey to say out loud.  But we, having experienced their "crazy" on a routine basis tend to hypersensitive to things like this.  I think if Mr. M sits on it and observes he will know.  But by Mr. M sending an email, he will not get a reply of ..."oh thank you for setting the boundaries, you are right, I will stop snuggling the boys. Absolutely, you were right at getting creeped out, it was inappropriate of me!".   Instead he will get an email saying "you crazy mean sick man, why are you so difficult, I am a normal mother showing normal loving affection, you should try it, to bad your so cold, you twist everything including my mothers love into something aweful...(blah blah blah blah and so on and so on).  Even in a court, IMHO, they would read these emails from Mr. M and his PEW and say wth?  I had the emails. They read them in court.  His claim...false allegations of inappropriateness in an attempt to cause alienation.  The judge didn't know what to believe and looked at us like we were bad kids on the school court and we needed to learn to get along.

I think the boundaries need to be set, but with the kids, not PEW.  A general discussion about "good touch vs bad touch" and what to do in inappropriate situations etc would be helpful...in my opinion for all kids, not just kids of a BPD.

[salt]

I've been following along here.

I know you don't want the kids to feel interoggated under the bright lights, Mr. M, but is there any room for further exploration of what is really going on?

[Mr. M]

Sure... I just needed to stop myself the other night because I could feel myself beginning to go from "innocent questions" to "full out interrogation."  So I dropped it after getting a feel for the extent of the situation, which I surmise isn't every single night but something which occurs on occasion.

Fact is... I'm much more alarmed by Aunt PP than I am about Psychex.  That SIL is off-the-chain freak scary.  I couldn't get a restraining order on her and I couldn't get the court to prevent her from potentially moving-in with them back a few years.

[kellaroo]

I completely feel for you...if our exBPD's are not right it makes sense that their family isn't either.

My exh's sister is currently in rehab.  She is one messed up woman.  The whole family is.  When we first split my exh let my kids be alone with her.   
Luckily I had it in my agreement and he fortunately signed it that the kids were never to be left alone with ANY of his family members.  At least that way, he would have to be somewhat accountable if something should happen.

Mr. M, I know that sick feeling.  As with all things , do what you can and let go of the rest.

Your kids are so lucky to have you as their father.

[funefarm4]

I agree that what Mr. M is dealing with is not my situation, but I still think a quick email is in order. 

The groundwork was laid in my situation several years earlier with seemingly benign interactions that I felt were somewhat inappropriate. It evolved into the "game" and then progressed.  He didn't one day bam start out with "the game".  There were also, and continue to be, inappropriate interactions with sister/wifie and uncle looney.  Part boy and sister/wifie have a totally inappropriate relationship which the kids are very aware of too.  Ew...but nothing I can do about that...

The key here is to lay down the boundaries in a calm rational way.  No need to interrogate, because it won't get you anywhere.  Just a quick--this is inappropriate. Stop it NOW.  That is not PAS.


Further exploration of the facts are probably futile.  You won't find out the truth in any way, shape or form.

Again, respectfully, with great respect, I would ask us all to think of just who we are trying to protect in our interactions with these terrorists?

 But by Mr. M sending an email, he will not get a reply of ..."oh thank you for setting the boundaries, you are right, I will stop snuggling the boys. Absolutely, you were right at getting creeped out, it was inappropriate of me!".   Instead he will get an email saying "you crazy mean sick man, why are you so difficult, I am a normal mother showing normal loving affection, you should try it, to bad your so cold, you twist everything including my mothers love into something aweful...(blah blah blah blah and so on and so on).  Even in a court, IMHO, they would read these emails from Mr. M and his PEW and say wth?


Of course he will get the crap.  I would ask, gently, so what? Are we guided here by trying to protect the kids, or fear of the nuclear explosion to follow if PEW gets smacked down?

There comes a time when you say, hell on what the judge, what everyone thinks. Hell on the crap to come too.  Who's needs am I looking after? My kids or my own, or my crazy ex? 

Mr. M, you need to trust your gut.  If you feel it's wrong, you need to address it and hunker down for the storm.  It sounds as if you've done that?

This is another sitch all together, but the next time you are in court, would it be appropriate to try to get limitations upon the interaction of SIL with the children?
 

[kellaroo]

Funefarm, I understand what you are saying.   I can emphathize with your pain of what happened to your child(ren).
Do you think if you had sent an email to your exh that the groundwork of boundaries would have been laid?

fyi: My children were abused.   I had made ground rules. 

I guess what I am saying that an email to Mr. M PEW will not be groundrules of boundaries but an opportunity for his exw to fight and cause chaos in his life and his kids life. 

If from my experiences with all this kind of stuff, I thought that an email or discussion about this with PEW and SIL would help children ...I would say go for it.  Instead, I think PEW will tell SIL and they will say FU to Mr. M and nothing will change for the kids.   I think the key is teaching the kids to respect when they feel uncomfortable and what to do about it.

[Mr. M]

Kellaroo is kind of right here.  My experience has been that when approached with something that is considered "less than" acceptable or flat-out unacceptable by someone (even beyond me) - she almost pathologically does the opposite.  Some examples:

- When S1's weight exploded after the split, I regularly communicated my concerns.  Even got the doctor involved who expressed concerns.  The doctor even went so far as to say, "It's understandable that once in a while, fast-food will happen, but for all intents and purposes, the children should never eat fast food, particularly ones with weight issues."  I kid you not, she started going more.

- When I expressed concern about her taking the children (this a few years ago when they were 6 and 3) to PG-13 rated movies after S1 "demonstrated" for me how grown-ups kiss... she went to more movies not appropriate for their ages.

- WWE, not only does she let them stay up later to watch it during the week, she'll take them to friends houses to watch the pay-per-view events (which I'm sure are more inappropriate for their ages that the 9PM stuff on USA).

- If I suggest to her that the children don't need to go to the doctor every single time they get a sniffle, she went more frequently.

- When S1 was in pre-K4, (when we were still together) - the teacher raved about his behavior.  He was calm.  Engaging.  Spoke well beyond his years.  She even used him as a subject for her college child-development class.  She said, "Almost every other child in here is uncontrollable.  They all watch Power Rangers and they no sooner drop their bags and coats and they're chopping and kicking one another.  But not S1!"  I kid you not, it wasn't a week later that she went out and bought the first of many Power Rangers DVDs and guess who's kids were soon doing the same chopping and kicking?

It's confounding.  It's like pathological sabotage of others.

Part of me hesitates knowing that she and her sister will likely do it MORE than they already do it should I choose to express my concerns.

I like the idea of easing into boundary setting in that regard with the boys... but what youngster doesn't want the attention/affections of someone they love?  I think it would be less creepy to me if the two involved were less creepy.

[funefarm4]

Yes, I believe that an email would have laid the foundation. And, if things had progressed(which in my case they did) there would have been a paper trail.  It wouldn't have been all of a sudden out of the blue thing. 

 If only I'd seen the train coming...I may not have prevented it, but at least I would have drawn the line in the sand.

I couldn't have done ANYTHING about the fact that he might have crossed it.  BUT, when your kid comes to you and says, Mommy...why...

It's hard because these are all situations with not one "right" answer.

And yes, Mr. M, my ex is like that too--he'll do the pathological opposite thing too.  I remember how annoying that was being married to him...

[Rose]

Mr. M:  I think you're dead on.  We've noticed that the more we "spotlight" an issue, the more attention it gets.  It's like a regurgitation wheel -- they get stuck on the concept, and actually do more of the action then less. 

[sonnyboy]

My husband did a film called "Touch," starring Lindsey Wagner. This Emmy-award winning film addresses sexual abuse and boundary issues for children of all ages.  I would find a copy of it and watch it with the kids.  If something isn't kosher with the psycho SIL or with psycho mother, the kids will be able to relate and report it to you. 

This film is very powerful and really empowers kids to articulate and identify abusive behaviors from all over the spectrum.

[Mr. M]

Thanks sb.

[kellaroo]

that movie would be a great teaching tool.   Because my kids have been sexually abused I have to do alot of teaching with regards to boundaries  (kids abused often lose all boundaries and are at risk for futher abuse).

The key with teaching about affection (cause you are sooo right Mr. M...kids crave it) is that we need to teach our kids when its not okay.  We need to teach them to trust their instinct and their own gut feelings when something feels uncomfortable, shameful, "not normal", creepy etc.   They see the normal behavior when they are with you and Mmmm.  So they know its not the same.

[ForeverDad]

Children can grasp simple concepts best.

What your underwear covers or what your swim suit covers is private.

What is hard is that the twisted or sly abusers try to sidestep that rule by pressuring, confusion and claiming they're exceptions.

[Peace4us]

This is such a very difficult issue. I am a "cuddler" with my kids. My son is almost 9 and he innitiates cuddles as much as his 8 yr old sister. I encouraged an open communication and demonstrative relationship with my children. We do not sleep ever in the same bed together unless there is an issue like febrile seizures which I have endurred.( I sleep very little and right on the floor in case the fever gets too high)

My T gave me a great book and the name of it now escapes me, yet it discussed good touching , like hugs and kisses that are open and so appreciated, and bad touching, which is pinching and hitting and bullying stuff, then there is secretive touching, the stuff that makes you feel icky, like you are not supposed to talk about, but its even worse than bad touching. Your body is your body and your privates are yours and you have a right no matter how old you are to have a say when and if someone, even you, touches your privates.(Thats the kind of thing I shared with the kids)

It worked for my kids and we have created an open and safe communication ground to share about these things. They are never cornered or questioned beyond what they are comfortable to share. And because of that they do.

Go with your gut but also trust your instinct,and listen to them. Try as hard as you can not to create things that may  not be, but see the reality and when you can not be sure, examine more than you can  as respectfully as you can.

My best to you
Peace4us

[Matt]

I've shared this before on other threads - doesn't answer Mr. M's issue exactly but just looking at different sides of this issue:

Since we separated 15 months ago, my kids (S9 and D11) have spent every weekend with me;  now 3 nights each weekend.  They each have their own room.  For about 6 months now, S9 has done something most weekends that we've never discussed - he just does it.  The first night he spends with me most weekends, when I say it's bedtime, he goes off without a word to his room, gets his favorite pillow and blanket, drags them to my room, and makes a little "nest" on the side of the bed away from my reading lamp.  It's a big bed and I really only use half.  He may read just a few minutes or not, then goes right off to sleep.

The next night he sleeps in his own room.  Some weekends he sleeps all 3 nights in his own room.  When he sleeps in my bed, he rarely hugs me or says a word.  In the morning he might read awhile, or just take his blanket and pillow back to his room and go about his day.

He has also taken to wearing my old t-shirts to bed, although I recently let him pick out a new pair of pajamas just for when he's here.  He also wears my t-shirts to bed when he's at the other house with my stbX.

I take both these behaviors as his stoic, nonverbal ways to be closer to me.  I talked with a few parents, and my counselor, who all said not to worry about it - normal stuff he'll probably quit at some point.

I guess that's my long way of saying I don't know what is right for every family, but if it seems healthy I think it probably is and if it doesn't, it probably isn't.

[another_guyD]

Guys and gals, I have a question? My son is two, and often gets in my bed to sleep automatically (he is really good goes to bed on his own!). My wife is going to a child psychologist for "counseling" at my CE's office and attacks from the child psychologists ideas. She has wanted and raved at our conflict resolution about co-sleeping with my son. In your opinion At what age is it appropriate to stop them sleeping in the same bed? I sleep on the couch usually. I think this maybe some projection, not sure but I am interested in your answers. Thanks.

Note: My family and I are very expressive: lots of hugs kisses and such. The ex is like a stone wall.

~AguyD   

[Peace4us]

Another_guyD


This to me is so sad. As a society we now question if a 2 yr old jumping into mommy or daddy's bed is appropriate. Can we not see how far this penetrates when dealing with this infliction that we question almost everything we do?  Makes me so very sad.


I am not a child psycholigist and many do not subscribe to my parenting philosophy, but I truly feel that a 2 yr old is still a baby needing lots of connection, saftey and security. IN the attachment paretning philosophy this is perfectly healthy and normal. Goodness I breast fed my children until they were 18  months old.  At 10 and 8 we are very cuddly and they still get tucked in at night wth hugs and kisses. I get hugs and kisses when they get dropped off for school.

I say go with  your gut on this. Do not let the mania of someone elses dimentia limit you from expressing your love and comittment to your child. That is just wrong in my book.

Children grow up far too fast these days. Relish those younger years.   I have made many mistakes in my years of parenting I am sure, but the one thing I am so proud of is that they know, no matter what mom loves them, respects them and that they ARE good enough. I never had that and darn it I was giving that to my kids.

Peace4us

[another_guyD]

Children grow up far too fast these days. Relish those younger years.   I have made many mistakes in my years of parenting I am sure, but the one thing I am so proud of is that they know, no matter what mom loves them, respects them and that they ARE good enough. I never had that and darn it I was giving that to my kids.

Peace4us

This is my thinking as well Peace. Thank you for the comment. It is always good to have backup!

~AguyD

[Matt]

I agree 100% with Peace.  But unfortunately this site is full of members (mostly men) who have been accused of inappropriate behavior with kids of all ages.  No matter how false the accusation, it can screw up your life big-time.

So I think it's important for us to be very careful.  Things like how you dress for bed, so the kids don't see or feel the wrong thing.  It can be completely innocent and in a better world it would make no difference, but you can't tell the kids not to tell Momma and if they do she can use that as the basis for wild charges.

As peace said, it's sad we have to worry about such things while also doing our best to give the kids the right kind of physical attention, but we are all playing with fire so we need to never let down our guards.

Best wishes,

Matt

[laurena82]

Hi Mr M,

I missed out on most of this post, but just wanted to voice my agreement with the others who said,

Dont contact BPDxW re: this.  It will get you NOWHERE...all it will do is give HER the JOY (and believe me, for her it will be a JOY) of again having something to engage with you about...what an AWFUL father you are to acuse her of this !, this just further points out how awful you are !, yada yada yada...crank up the spewing, and broadcasting to her friends etc etc...

YES, address the issue in general with your kids.  Get the books to read together, etc. 

Bottom line is:
You want your kids to recognize the boundaries, and be able to advocate for themselves, regardless of if the inappropriateness is from mom, auntie, or someone else.

And, yeah, you know you'll NEVER receive anything back from her other than vile spewing at how wrong you are...its simply an invitation for her to engage with you...

As for myself, my boys are now ages 18 to 24, and they still hug me..."experts" say hugs are one of the best forms of stress relief, and EVERYONE should have so many hugs a day for mental health...in fact, my one son, when he started early teen years, and would be especially grumpy and going to go off the deep end , I'd say, "I need to give you a hug", and then do so...and a meltdown would be averted...as he grew older, when he felt himself feeling a "bad day",...he'd just come over and give me a hug, then move on, and feel better.  He's a happy, well adjusted college student now.

So, my point is..."snuggling" is/can be a positive form of hugging...and you're not going to get your exW to agree that what she's doing is anything other than that (even if it is).

IMO:
Get the books/videos so your kids feel comfortable talking with you about it, and if things are TRULY inappropriate, then they will be able to talk about it, and you'll have something definitive to go from.

[NewLifeforHGG]

I was scared of the same thing for a while because my ex is very affectionate. He is from a culture where men kiss each other's cheeks and hug. My parents were not overly affectionate but I am. I will cuddle my dtr all of the time. If she has a nightmare she climbs in bed for safety feelings. She is 8.
But if I she had overnights with her father and she said he did the same thing...I am not sure I would not feel a little uneasy about it too. My H does not get overnights. I allow him to come over to spend some extra time to work on homework or something but I know the nature of this disorder. His BNPmother totally emasculated him by doing little things that added up to something bigger. She made him her surrogate SO.
Keep your eye on it.

[safetyfirst]

Ditto the value and theraputic value of hugs.  Tuesday when my son was going through trying to straighten out some interstate garbage instigated by his ex, he was so stressed he had to leave work.  He was here at our house explaining some of it and looked at me as said, 'I really need a hug, Mom'. So my over 6 ft son got his hug from much shorter mom and felt better!

[another_guyD]

HGG:
I would be much more careful if my son was female HGG (<==== odd statement...).
Actually my wife's culture men kiss each other... (yuck here). My family does hug family
members and close friends (opposite sex or elderly). I am really afraid that this is some sort of projection.
She has accused me of sexual abuse several times in "conflict resolution".

Matt in Tucsan:

My boy loves the onsies (I think that is what they are called) with the little rubber/plastic feet.
He never sleeps in a diaper alone. I sleep fully clothed (an old pair of blue jeans or khakis is my choice in PJ's and a t-shirt).
When I was "allowed" to stay at my marital residence; my son was age 8 months to 13 months my wife would rage (and wake him up) at night
so I would place him on the couch (my bed...) with me to sleep.

~AguyD





 

[NewLifeforHGG]

safety-I hope my dtr will do the same with me when she is older. You are never to old to need a hug.
another-I think it is rather sad that things are the way they are. When I was six I had an uncle that I just loved. One day he was reading to me in a hammock and I fell asleep laying on his stomach. It was at a BBQ. There was noting sordid or wrong about it. He was just a sweet guy who missed his kids and would come over to spend time with us.

[safetyfirst]

Newlifefor HGG,

Don't be discouraged.  There were YEARS when he didn't want to hugged in public or private.  I think becoming a Daddy helped him realize how important demonstrating affection really is.  If we are going to be out of town traveling he will make a special trip to our house to give and receive hugs before we go and admonish us to 'drive carefully' and come back soon.  My how the tables have turned  8)

[Mr. M]

Ha!  I actually already sent an email to her on this subject some 3 years ago.  I posted it today.  ... what a coincidence.  Makes me even more glad I didn't repeat myself... I guess it's easy to lose track after all this time.  Gah!

[spent18]

Mr. M,

Oh yes, a hard question for anyone to field.  Let me be the third person (I believe) to suggest you spend time teaching the children the difference between appropriate contact and inappropriate contact.  I would definitely salt in statements about how even those who they “should” trust may do things which are UNACCEPTABLE (like – uncles, teachers, coaches, priests/ministers or even PARENTS).  This way you will have both protected them from your two current concerns and many others.

I very rarely post and haven’t visited much in the last few years.  Since I now have primary custody of my children (and the BPD contact has been reduced dramatically),  but would love to share a flashback I got after reading your question.  Of my three children the youngest two are girls.  I remember how their mom used to refuse to allow me to give them baths when they were babies and toddlers (as if she was really in control – what a joke – it only took me 20 years to realize she had no control).  I’m not talking about ten years old, no, no, no.

Since the divorce my youngest (now nine) and I often sleep on the couch together.  Mind you we both are always wearing clothing or full pajamas with added underwear underneath.

Best of luck
Spent 18


PS - Just noticed I had only read the first of the FIVE pages - I hope I did not get too off thread - I must sign off as I need to pick up my youngest from a birthday party so I won't have time to read the four inbetween