"Snuggling" in bed with the kids...

[Think About It...]

On the fence about contacting on this one, again, with the sole intent of having a nastyassed reply come back for the "file."

The boys are 6 & 9 and during discussion at dinner last night, they spoke of "snuggling in bed" - not only with Psychex, but on occasion with Psycho-SIL (who's dreams of motherhood are realized vicariously through the boys).

This bothers me.  I'm slightly conflicted... very slightly... because I'll pile on the sofa with the boys when watching a show or something and they'll be laying in each of my arms as we chill and watch the show.  At night, I'll give them a big squeeze and a kiss before wishing them a wonderful night's sleep.  Nothing more than a few minutes of hanging out, sometimes on the bed.

"Snuggling" (in my paranoid mind regarding PEW) is something more and not something we haven't read about here countless times before.

Bottom line... it's gnawing at my soul.  I don't like it.  I asked them a few questions but tempered them because I didn't want them to get the feeling that I was interrogating them... and then let it go.

I know that my emailing my objection will accomplish nothing (short of getting the reply I'm expecting, which is what I want).  I can't know what constitutes "snuggling" in the boys minds and I don't want to ask them to describe it, for obvious reasons.

My question is... a short blurb which will prompt a nasty reply defending her actions, perhaps even describing them (as she sees it, may not be of any significance) - or let it go?  I was thinking something along the lines of...

I think that your getting into bed with the boys and "snuggling" with them is highly inappropriate at their ages and could be harmful in the long term.  You should consider being cautious about continuing with such behavior.

Of course, my other concern is that she'll freak on the kids or otherwise instruct them not to share such information in the future, putting them in the middle yet again.

Help me sort it out, please.

[Mr. M]

On the fence about contacting on this one, again, with the sole intent of having a nastyassed reply come back for the "file."

The boys are 6 & 9 and during discussion at dinner last night, they spoke of "snuggling in bed" - not only with Psychex, but on occasion with Psycho-SIL (who's dreams of motherhood are realized vicariously through the boys).

This bothers me.  I'm slightly conflicted... very slightly... because I'll pile on the sofa with the boys when watching a show or something and they'll be laying in each of my arms as we chill and watch the show.  At night, I'll give them a big squeeze and a kiss before wishing them a wonderful night's sleep.  Nothing more than a few minutes of hanging out, sometimes on the bed.

"Snuggling" (in my paranoid mind regarding PEW) is something more and not something we haven't read about here countless times before.

Bottom line... it's gnawing at my soul.  I don't like it.  I asked them a few questions but tempered them because I didn't want them to get the feeling that I was interrogating them... and then let it go.

I know that my emailing my objection will accomplish nothing (short of getting the reply I'm expecting, which is what I want).  I can't know what constitutes "snuggling" in the boys minds and I don't want to ask them to describe it, for obvious reasons.

My question is... a short blurb which will prompt a nasty reply defending her actions, perhaps even describing them (as she sees it, may not be of any significance) - or let it go?  I was thinking something along the lines of...

I think that your getting into bed with the boys and "snuggling" with them is highly inappropriate at their ages and could be harmful in the long term.  You should consider being cautious about continuing with such behavior.

Of course, my other concern is that she'll freak on the kids or otherwise instruct them not to share such information in the future, putting them in the middle yet again.

Help me sort it out, please.

[JoannaK]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...  This is a tough one, Mr. M.  As you are considering, if you bring it up to her, what difference will it make?  Will she actually think about her behavior?  Will she moderate her behavior?  Or will she mad at you and at the boys for telling you?

Perhaps just watch and see how they act...  better, worse, indifferent...

[the end]

I know what you mean it is perfectly normal for parents to do many things with younger children, eg, sleep with tnem, shower/bathe with them, dress them celanse their bodies for them...but when dealing with a pers disorder person those routine behaviors approach the level of concern.

My DH is a truck driver and one of the joys he had was taking the kids on overnight runs, but had to give it up for the sake of appearances because the issue of "sleeping with" the children has potential to be problematic, AS IF when is sleeping in a bed in a house the same displaying inappropriate boundaries,the same as an overnight in the truck sleeper bunk, with DH usually driving?, even so the bunk is full size and it is no different than camping, becuase of my psycoassX the kids are denied a fun and interesting experience... not to mention quality time with DH and his co workers etc.  

In my case x often sleeps with the children dd5 and ds8 tell me so, they'take turns' sleeping with dad...the older 3 wont admit it but the younger tell me its true.

I didcussed this wT and she discussed options approaching it w/ds8 esp on ways he could feel more comfortable sleeping alone, maybe using a large stuffed animal, rolling up a blanket next to him. I wnet along with the concept of helping ds develop coping and verbal skills to help him organize the concept in his mind (I on the other hand wanted to tell son , "its wrong, innapopriate, he needs to sleep alone, etc." ) On the other hand I  cuddle and snuggle, it isnt unusual for kids to pile on the bed in the AM and on the sofa w/DH and myself sometimes.


So I think noting and documenting is good, verbalizing boundaries and directing kids to self help is probably the best approach, I dont think there is any benefit what ever to telling PE anything, 'Oh your daddy says I cant cuddle you any more... :' you know her response to the kids.
I think you have the advantage in that they are boys and more likely to follow your lead.

Discussion and role playing about personal boundaries may be timely for the boys.

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[Oy-vey!]

DO NOT GO THERE WITH HER. 

Your best avenue of response is to teach the boys excellent boundaries - what is and is not okay to do.  There are many many books on the subject of appropriate "touching" and the like.  Work with them without ever mentioning their mother, but let them know without making an issue of it that parents cannot be inappropriate with them either.

You've been wanting to engage with her more lately.  What's up with that?

[csandra]

Nothing good can come from engaging with this woman.  You could tell her to stop sticking needles in her eye and she would tell you that it's all your fault for making her think about it. 

 I feel strongly that agitating her unnecessarily will only make it worse for your boys, in the long run.  Also, I think that it might embarrass them for you to confront her on this particular issue.  I agree that you should demonstrate healthy boundaries.

 I am sure that you are still working out the kinks in having them with you for longer periods.  The reality is that there are two separate households, each with different values.  If the boys indicated discomfort with mom's demonstrations of physical affection, I would coach them to respectfully detach.  Isn't this what it is all about anyway ?  We need to teach the kids how to relate to someone that we have already given up on.  They need to develop self preservation skills because surely the NPD/BPD parent will never put the child's needs above their own.

I struggle with the transitions between 2 homes and my child is 17 !  In my heart I believe that I am right, he is wrong, she is better off without him.  In reality, there is little choice but to send her off to be with him.  If I come off as suggesting that her time with dad is always suspect or of lesser value than with me, I am only hurting her. 

She has little choice but to deal with his defects of character.  I don't want her to ever avoid talking to me because she is afraid that I will say something to dad and get him all upset.  In my case, it's a lot better to gently encourage her to stand up to dad than to be resented for coming to her rescue.  Besides, the few times that I DID intervene were absolute disasters.

[Matt]

You talk to her too much.

(Sorry, just had to say that.)

Seriously, my kids are 9 (son) and 11 (daughter).  They do need hugs, and they decide when and signal me.  I don't know what goes on when they are with my stbX, but without really clear signs that something is wrong I think I can't do anything about it.

I wouldn't worry, from what you have said.  At those ages it doesn't sound unhealthy.  If she frequently let them sleep with her, then maybe.  But my son (9) sometimes, when I tell him to go to bed, brings his favorite blanket and pillow to my room and builds a little next on the other side from where I sleep.  (It's a big bed.)  And without a word, goes to sleep there.  I look at it as a need to be close to me, not a problem.  (Recently he has started sleeping in my old t-shirts, both when he's with me and when he's with stbX.  Again, I think it's a sign but not necessarily a problem.)

This is probably something you just need to accept and keep your eyes and ears open but don't over-react.

That said, if there was a neutral third party involved, like a custody evaluator or GAL, I'd sure mention it to them.  But I think in your case there's nobody like that right?

Best wishes,

Matt

[alf]

Mr. M... I agree.  This seems at the margins.  Of concern, yes, but absolutely wrong... ?  I cannot say, but I do know that this falls at the borderline but still within potentially acceptible behavior.  In my case, the Ex would "allow" (encourage) an 11-year old boy sleep in bed with her.  That crosses the line and my objections (which were termed as "not wanting to meet the child's needs"     this issue was one of the final nails in the divorce coffin.  So I have put up with this BS and have tolerated more of this than I should.  From this perspective, my reaction is to encourage healthy behavior in your home, listen very carefully but do not interogate (as you said).  If you detect a substantial increase in the dissolution of appropriate boundaries by their mother, that might be a time to push.  Hope this helps... alf

[kellaroo]

I would say and  send  NOTHING for two reasons.

1.  I snuggle with my kids.  Son is 10 and Daughter is 12.  I will lay in bed and tuck them in and tuck them in and we will chat about the day.  Sometimes when I wake them up I will lay on bed and "spoon" them and gently tell them to wake up.  Nothing inappropriate about it.  Its "our" comfort zone.  (now if sons were saying it makes them uncomfortable, then I would find out why).  Same as you, when we watch a movie we snuggle, either on couch or sometimes, two kids, me and bf on our king size bed.  Again, we all love it, and nothing inappropriate about it.

2.  I think you are reaching here.  Although you may be correct with your gut instinct and may be something to keep in back of mind, but if this were just for your "file" or her "file", it may bite you.  If it was ever brought up in court they would say you are trying to micro-manage her time and behavior.  They may find this a petty complaint as well.

I absolutely hear where you are coming from MR. M.  I went through this with my exh, because he was sleeping NAKED!  (and you know the history with his dad and my kids).   Childrens services investigated.  NOthing happened.  He denied and said he might have once but would never do again.   Court said nothing.

I think it will be more trouble then its worth at this point.

Let it go.

[kellaroo]

This it totally food for thought...and I may be way off base but ...

Do you think that you putting so much energy into a blog about your PEW is causing you too think too much about her?  Don't get me wrong, I think the blog can be quite witty  (ie. side order of boiled bunny?) But it just seems to me that you put alot of energy and mind space on your PEW and the injustices of men / fathers and her behaviors.

You may be no contact or minimal contact, but you spend alot of time thinking about her.  And although it may be helpful for some people, I just can't imagine putting so much of my life... into my ex.   There are so many better things to do.

This is not meant to be critical but just food for thought.

[salt]

I agree that normal snuggling becomes something else in the land of the BPD. 

And I would be concerned, too. 

I just think you would be better served by talking with the boys and reading books about healthy physical boundaries, their bodies being their own, and that they have the right to sleep alone if they so choose. 

[Rose]

I'm with the others -- don't bring it up. 

When this was happening with our skids, we talked with the skids directly about what's normal, what's not, especially as they got older.  I remember, one time, when my SS16 was about 10 years old, came over to our house after school, blatantly just exhausted.  He said that exBPD made him sleep on the floor next to her, to keep her company.    And, it was our SS(10) who was upset about this.  My DH put his energies into helping SS deal with it, and that's when things *broke* between SS10 and exBPD over the sleeping issue.  (Now, don't ask me about SS18, that's a whole other situation, as you know even last year I heard about an instance where SS17 hopped into her bed after having a bad dream. Argh.)

In any case, no good can come from it.  Your exBPD will probably use that to say, "see children, he really doesn't know how to show affection, and just wants to come between us.  This is what I was married to -- he's so controlling.  Who does he think he is, telling me that I can't love my children?"  And that's exactly where this will go, exactly placing your kids in the middle.

[non-non]

I'm with Kellaroo on the thing about your blog.

I regulary visit you blog, I love it!  I'm very entertained by it.  But I'm wondering whether sometimes you are looking for material to make it more interesting...  Sometimes I want you to antagonize her so that I can see how mad she really gets. I was quite disappointed when you didnt send that mail that justified your thoughts on the TV wrestling dispute.   But that was purely for my own entertainment to what her response would be.  I think I might be a bit sick - sorry!   

Anyway - I agree with the others about responding to your fears.

The only advantage to responding to the "snuggling" issue is that it will be something more to write about on your blog. There will be no real life issues resolved.  In fact it will probably make things worse.

nn

[ForeverDad]

My stbx slept in our son's bed for the 3 months before our separation and he would occasionally mention since then that he sleeps with her.  For years she had our son hold her breasts "for his comfort" after she stopped nursing him at 16 months.  If that's not emotionally incestuous, what is?  It was on papers I filed in court.  I told my lawyer.  I probably told the evaluator too.  I know I gave him those papers I filed in court, I gave them to CPS as well.  No one batted an eye.

Yes, it really stinks that lousy behaviors are tolerated or people turn a blind eye.  In my state parents are ordered to maintain separate bedrooms, so I would have thought that meant the kids were to sleep there most of the time, right?  But I agree with the others, what will it accomplish?

[Mr. M]

Nah... it's not about the blog at all, I can assure you - I have enough "material" to keep it interesting for a long time to come.  And in the last 3 months, I've only "wanted" to engage her 3 times.  Once was the unsent email bomb when I was just frustrated.  #2 - the WWE situation which to me rose to a "level of concern" regarding the kids for reasons previously discussed.

This has more to do with the experiences of others' along the same lines here creeping into my psyche.  That's why I figured I'd ask before acting.  Prevailing opinion has settled me down a bit in that a "watch and see" position is the one to take.  I appreciate the feedback.

[mmm]

I think it has more to do with the "why" of what makes her want to sleep with the boys, and what they are learning from it. She can't be alone, ever. She always has to have someone with her and she is teaching the kids that they will always need her, and not in a healthy "I'm your Mom and I'll always be here for you," way. We are seeing the signs that the kids simply can't be alone either or away from family. They have no independence, and the sleeping thing is really the beginning of it. Of course it's also sick in our minds because the oldest is literally the size of a man, at only 9 years old, and it's literally like he is her boyfriend.

[ForeverDad]

I've often commented here that I was rejected and replaced, not by another man, but by our son.

It stinks.  It sucks.  It... I don't say those kinds of words.

[JoannaK]

Wait a minute...  are they snuggling in bed... perhaps right after waking or right before the kids go to sleep.. or are they sleeping in the same bed witih her all night?  Do they have separate beds at her home?  By the time kids are school aged, they really need their own bed...  This is not the 19th century out on the farm when bedroom space was at a premium and people needed to sleep together for warmth...  even then, the parents slept separately from the kids.

If she is sleeping with them all night all or most of the time... if they don't have they own beds or use their own beds, it is an important issue to address, it can't be ignored... though I'm not sure how. 

Emotional incest, which is what sleeping together often indicates, is extremely damaging to those kids. 

[Mr. M]

Based upon what they volunteered, it could be a little of both... and with both Psychex and her sister, too, from time-to-time.

[csandra]

That is just weird about the aunt being so physically expressive.  I consider myself an involved, caring aunt to my nieces and nephews but besides an occasional hug when greeting or leaving, I keep pretty thoughtful physical and emotional boundaries...especially as the kids get older. 

It will be interesting to see how she reacts as the boys quite naturally develop some boundaries as they spend more time with you. 

[funefarm4]

So been here, SOOOOOO done this.

You need to smack this one down HARD immediately.  Let me tell you I was like you in the beginning.  I did not press it...then, it began to get totally toally out of control. I felt something was odd...but I didn't want to make waves...then my daughter came home bleeding from her vagina the first overnite visit.

Daddy concocted a little game called "bed bugs" where they played "hide and seek" in the bed with their eyes closed. He would touch them and try to guess which part of the body he was touching.  Guess which parts got touched? Honest to Gosh. Why do we need to do this during the day when you have several acres of land to play on?  There is no need to be playing in a bed.  I had the talk with the kids--you need to talk with your kids too. 

I talked with a psychologist friend of mine.  The "snuggling" part is an attempt by an inappropriate person to break down the barriers that people feel when their personal space is violated. 

I'd bring it up. I'd set the tone, and I wouldn't be nice, but remember, I've seen where part boy went with this, and I do have PTSD, so you know, maybe I'm going overboard?  But, I'd be OVER this one. All OVER it.

Something along the lines of--it has come to my attention that you and psycho aunt spend time in the beds of our children.  This is inappropriate to say the least.  I ask that you immediately refrain from this.  If I hear again that this inappropriate behavior continues, I shall have no choice but to involve CPS in the matter.


It is wonderful for people to show affection to children.  There is NO reason why anyone needs to show affection to a child in a bed, especially during a high conflict divorce/custody situation.

I respectfully disagree with the others here.  It's not about what it would accomplish. It's about setting a firm boundary here with PEW.  I made the mistake before with my own kids, and they paid the price.

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