"Snuggling" in bed with the kids...

[Think About It....]

I wonder if there is a way to get a neutral professional involved in this discussion, Mr. M.  Somebody who can hear your concerns and frame the issue properly for her, and check back to see if reasonable boundaries are being observed.

My thinking is that if you address her directly she'll push back because you both, um, hate each other.  But if a neutral, trained third party is involved it can be more about appropriate boundaries and not about all the baggage.

Most of us here say "It's not necessarily a big deal" but Funefarm says "Well it might be".  How can it be handled so you don't assume one way or the other?

Recently where I worked there was a rumor of sexual harassment.  Management, including me, did not have enough information to take strong action.  So we posted a notice stating company policy regarding this issue, and made sure everybody saw it.  The rumors died down.  My own guess is that the rumors were at least somewhat valid and that posting the "boundaries" got the attention of the individual responsible, without ever making an accusation.

I see this as analogous:  Not "You are guilty" but "Here are the boundaries".

[Matt]

I wonder if there is a way to get a neutral professional involved in this discussion, Mr. M.  Somebody who can hear your concerns and frame the issue properly for her, and check back to see if reasonable boundaries are being observed.

My thinking is that if you address her directly she'll push back because you both, um, hate each other.  But if a neutral, trained third party is involved it can be more about appropriate boundaries and not about all the baggage.

Most of us here say "It's not necessarily a big deal" but Funefarm says "Well it might be".  How can it be handled so you don't assume one way or the other?

Recently where I worked there was a rumor of sexual harassment.  Management, including me, did not have enough information to take strong action.  So we posted a notice stating company policy regarding this issue, and made sure everybody saw it.  The rumors died down.  My own guess is that the rumors were at least somewhat valid and that posting the "boundaries" got the attention of the individual responsible, without ever making an accusation.

I see this as analogous:  Not "You are guilty" but "Here are the boundaries".

[funefarm4]

I agree with Matt-- it's about the boundaries.  NOT the guilt.

Set the boundaries high, and remain firm.

It MIGHT be something, but then again it MIGHT not be.  You don't want to make any wrong assumptions either way--your kids are too precious.

[kellaroo]

Funefarm...that "game" your exh plaed is totally aweful. My stomach turned.  But I think its something different that what Mr. M is talking about.  I realize, as well as lived it with my own exh that in the land of BPD, all norms are thrown out esp. with bed routine and normalcy.  And as a parent, it leaves a sick feeling knowing that kids "MAY" be put in those types of position, but without more evidence of anythign other than a gut intinct, it gets pretty dicey to say out loud.  But we, having experienced their "crazy" on a routine basis tend to hypersensitive to things like this.  I think if Mr. M sits on it and observes he will know.  But by Mr. M sending an email, he will not get a reply of ..."oh thank you for setting the boundaries, you are right, I will stop snuggling the boys. Absolutely, you were right at getting creeped out, it was inappropriate of me!".   Instead he will get an email saying "you crazy mean sick man, why are you so difficult, I am a normal mother showing normal loving affection, you should try it, to bad your so cold, you twist everything including my mothers love into something aweful...(blah blah blah blah and so on and so on).  Even in a court, IMHO, they would read these emails from Mr. M and his PEW and say wth?  I had the emails. They read them in court.  His claim...false allegations of inappropriateness in an attempt to cause alienation.  The judge didn't know what to believe and looked at us like we were bad kids on the school court and we needed to learn to get along.

I think the boundaries need to be set, but with the kids, not PEW.  A general discussion about "good touch vs bad touch" and what to do in inappropriate situations etc would be helpful...in my opinion for all kids, not just kids of a BPD.

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[salt]

I've been following along here.

I know you don't want the kids to feel interoggated under the bright lights, Mr. M, but is there any room for further exploration of what is really going on?

[Mr. M]

Sure... I just needed to stop myself the other night because I could feel myself beginning to go from "innocent questions" to "full out interrogation."  So I dropped it after getting a feel for the extent of the situation, which I surmise isn't every single night but something which occurs on occasion.

Fact is... I'm much more alarmed by Aunt PP than I am about Psychex.  That SIL is off-the-chain freak scary.  I couldn't get a restraining order on her and I couldn't get the court to prevent her from potentially moving-in with them back a few years.

[kellaroo]

I completely feel for you...if our exBPD's are not right it makes sense that their family isn't either.

My exh's sister is currently in rehab.  She is one messed up woman.  The whole family is.  When we first split my exh let my kids be alone with her.   
Luckily I had it in my agreement and he fortunately signed it that the kids were never to be left alone with ANY of his family members.  At least that way, he would have to be somewhat accountable if something should happen.

Mr. M, I know that sick feeling.  As with all things , do what you can and let go of the rest.

Your kids are so lucky to have you as their father.

[funefarm4]

I agree that what Mr. M is dealing with is not my situation, but I still think a quick email is in order. 

The groundwork was laid in my situation several years earlier with seemingly benign interactions that I felt were somewhat inappropriate. It evolved into the "game" and then progressed.  He didn't one day bam start out with "the game".  There were also, and continue to be, inappropriate interactions with sister/wifie and uncle looney.  Part boy and sister/wifie have a totally inappropriate relationship which the kids are very aware of too.  Ew...but nothing I can do about that...

The key here is to lay down the boundaries in a calm rational way.  No need to interrogate, because it won't get you anywhere.  Just a quick--this is inappropriate. Stop it NOW.  That is not PAS.


Further exploration of the facts are probably futile.  You won't find out the truth in any way, shape or form.

Again, respectfully, with great respect, I would ask us all to think of just who we are trying to protect in our interactions with these terrorists?

 But by Mr. M sending an email, he will not get a reply of ..."oh thank you for setting the boundaries, you are right, I will stop snuggling the boys. Absolutely, you were right at getting creeped out, it was inappropriate of me!".   Instead he will get an email saying "you crazy mean sick man, why are you so difficult, I am a normal mother showing normal loving affection, you should try it, to bad your so cold, you twist everything including my mothers love into something aweful...(blah blah blah blah and so on and so on).  Even in a court, IMHO, they would read these emails from Mr. M and his PEW and say wth?


Of course he will get the crap.  I would ask, gently, so what? Are we guided here by trying to protect the kids, or fear of the nuclear explosion to follow if PEW gets smacked down?

There comes a time when you say, hell on what the judge, what everyone thinks. Hell on the crap to come too.  Who's needs am I looking after? My kids or my own, or my crazy ex? 

Mr. M, you need to trust your gut.  If you feel it's wrong, you need to address it and hunker down for the storm.  It sounds as if you've done that?

This is another sitch all together, but the next time you are in court, would it be appropriate to try to get limitations upon the interaction of SIL with the children?
 

[kellaroo]

Funefarm, I understand what you are saying.   I can emphathize with your pain of what happened to your child(ren).
Do you think if you had sent an email to your exh that the groundwork of boundaries would have been laid?

fyi: My children were abused.   I had made ground rules. 

I guess what I am saying that an email to Mr. M PEW will not be groundrules of boundaries but an opportunity for his exw to fight and cause chaos in his life and his kids life. 

If from my experiences with all this kind of stuff, I thought that an email or discussion about this with PEW and SIL would help children ...I would say go for it.  Instead, I think PEW will tell SIL and they will say FU to Mr. M and nothing will change for the kids.   I think the key is teaching the kids to respect when they feel uncomfortable and what to do about it.

[Mr. M]

Kellaroo is kind of right here.  My experience has been that when approached with something that is considered "less than" acceptable or flat-out unacceptable by someone (even beyond me) - she almost pathologically does the opposite.  Some examples:

- When S1's weight exploded after the split, I regularly communicated my concerns.  Even got the doctor involved who expressed concerns.  The doctor even went so far as to say, "It's understandable that once in a while, fast-food will happen, but for all intents and purposes, the children should never eat fast food, particularly ones with weight issues."  I kid you not, she started going more.

- When I expressed concern about her taking the children (this a few years ago when they were 6 and 3) to PG-13 rated movies after S1 "demonstrated" for me how grown-ups kiss... she went to more movies not appropriate for their ages.

- WWE, not only does she let them stay up later to watch it during the week, she'll take them to friends houses to watch the pay-per-view events (which I'm sure are more inappropriate for their ages that the 9PM stuff on USA).

- If I suggest to her that the children don't need to go to the doctor every single time they get a sniffle, she went more frequently.

- When S1 was in pre-K4, (when we were still together) - the teacher raved about his behavior.  He was calm.  Engaging.  Spoke well beyond his years.  She even used him as a subject for her college child-development class.  She said, "Almost every other child in here is uncontrollable.  They all watch Power Rangers and they no sooner drop their bags and coats and they're chopping and kicking one another.  But not S1!"  I kid you not, it wasn't a week later that she went out and bought the first of many Power Rangers DVDs and guess who's kids were soon doing the same chopping and kicking?

It's confounding.  It's like pathological sabotage of others.

Part of me hesitates knowing that she and her sister will likely do it MORE than they already do it should I choose to express my concerns.

I like the idea of easing into boundary setting in that regard with the boys... but what youngster doesn't want the attention/affections of someone they love?  I think it would be less creepy to me if the two involved were less creepy.

[funefarm4]

Yes, I believe that an email would have laid the foundation. And, if things had progressed(which in my case they did) there would have been a paper trail.  It wouldn't have been all of a sudden out of the blue thing. 

 If only I'd seen the train coming...I may not have prevented it, but at least I would have drawn the line in the sand.

I couldn't have done ANYTHING about the fact that he might have crossed it.  BUT, when your kid comes to you and says, Mommy...why...

It's hard because these are all situations with not one "right" answer.

And yes, Mr. M, my ex is like that too--he'll do the pathological opposite thing too.  I remember how annoying that was being married to him...

[Rose]

Mr. M:  I think you're dead on.  We've noticed that the more we "spotlight" an issue, the more attention it gets.  It's like a regurgitation wheel -- they get stuck on the concept, and actually do more of the action then less. 

[sonnyboy]

My husband did a film called "Touch," starring Lindsey Wagner. This Emmy-award winning film addresses sexual abuse and boundary issues for children of all ages.  I would find a copy of it and watch it with the kids.  If something isn't kosher with the psycho SIL or with psycho mother, the kids will be able to relate and report it to you. 

This film is very powerful and really empowers kids to articulate and identify abusive behaviors from all over the spectrum.

[Mr. M]

Thanks sb.

[kellaroo]

that movie would be a great teaching tool.   Because my kids have been sexually abused I have to do alot of teaching with regards to boundaries  (kids abused often lose all boundaries and are at risk for futher abuse).

The key with teaching about affection (cause you are sooo right Mr. M...kids crave it) is that we need to teach our kids when its not okay.  We need to teach them to trust their instinct and their own gut feelings when something feels uncomfortable, shameful, "not normal", creepy etc.   They see the normal behavior when they are with you and Mmmm.  So they know its not the same.

[ForeverDad]

Children can grasp simple concepts best.

What your underwear covers or what your swim suit covers is private.

What is hard is that the twisted or sly abusers try to sidestep that rule by pressuring, confusion and claiming they're exceptions.

[Peace4us]

This is such a very difficult issue. I am a "cuddler" with my kids. My son is almost 9 and he innitiates cuddles as much as his 8 yr old sister. I encouraged an open communication and demonstrative relationship with my children. We do not sleep ever in the same bed together unless there is an issue like febrile seizures which I have endurred.( I sleep very little and right on the floor in case the fever gets too high)

My T gave me a great book and the name of it now escapes me, yet it discussed good touching , like hugs and kisses that are open and so appreciated, and bad touching, which is pinching and hitting and bullying stuff, then there is secretive touching, the stuff that makes you feel icky, like you are not supposed to talk about, but its even worse than bad touching. Your body is your body and your privates are yours and you have a right no matter how old you are to have a say when and if someone, even you, touches your privates.(Thats the kind of thing I shared with the kids)

It worked for my kids and we have created an open and safe communication ground to share about these things. They are never cornered or questioned beyond what they are comfortable to share. And because of that they do.

Go with your gut but also trust your instinct,and listen to them. Try as hard as you can not to create things that may  not be, but see the reality and when you can not be sure, examine more than you can  as respectfully as you can.

My best to you
Peace4us

[Matt]

I've shared this before on other threads - doesn't answer Mr. M's issue exactly but just looking at different sides of this issue:

Since we separated 15 months ago, my kids (S9 and D11) have spent every weekend with me;  now 3 nights each weekend.  They each have their own room.  For about 6 months now, S9 has done something most weekends that we've never discussed - he just does it.  The first night he spends with me most weekends, when I say it's bedtime, he goes off without a word to his room, gets his favorite pillow and blanket, drags them to my room, and makes a little "nest" on the side of the bed away from my reading lamp.  It's a big bed and I really only use half.  He may read just a few minutes or not, then goes right off to sleep.

The next night he sleeps in his own room.  Some weekends he sleeps all 3 nights in his own room.  When he sleeps in my bed, he rarely hugs me or says a word.  In the morning he might read awhile, or just take his blanket and pillow back to his room and go about his day.

He has also taken to wearing my old t-shirts to bed, although I recently let him pick out a new pair of pajamas just for when he's here.  He also wears my t-shirts to bed when he's at the other house with my stbX.

I take both these behaviors as his stoic, nonverbal ways to be closer to me.  I talked with a few parents, and my counselor, who all said not to worry about it - normal stuff he'll probably quit at some point.

I guess that's my long way of saying I don't know what is right for every family, but if it seems healthy I think it probably is and if it doesn't, it probably isn't.

[another_guyD]

Guys and gals, I have a question? My son is two, and often gets in my bed to sleep automatically (he is really good goes to bed on his own!). My wife is going to a child psychologist for "counseling" at my CE's office and attacks from the child psychologists ideas. She has wanted and raved at our conflict resolution about co-sleeping with my son. In your opinion At what age is it appropriate to stop them sleeping in the same bed? I sleep on the couch usually. I think this maybe some projection, not sure but I am interested in your answers. Thanks.

Note: My family and I are very expressive: lots of hugs kisses and such. The ex is like a stone wall.

~AguyD   

[Peace4us]

Another_guyD


This to me is so sad. As a society we now question if a 2 yr old jumping into mommy or daddy's bed is appropriate. Can we not see how far this penetrates when dealing with this infliction that we question almost everything we do?  Makes me so very sad.


I am not a child psycholigist and many do not subscribe to my parenting philosophy, but I truly feel that a 2 yr old is still a baby needing lots of connection, saftey and security. IN the attachment paretning philosophy this is perfectly healthy and normal. Goodness I breast fed my children until they were 18  months old.  At 10 and 8 we are very cuddly and they still get tucked in at night wth hugs and kisses. I get hugs and kisses when they get dropped off for school.

I say go with  your gut on this. Do not let the mania of someone elses dimentia limit you from expressing your love and comittment to your child. That is just wrong in my book.

Children grow up far too fast these days. Relish those younger years.   I have made many mistakes in my years of parenting I am sure, but the one thing I am so proud of is that they know, no matter what mom loves them, respects them and that they ARE good enough. I never had that and darn it I was giving that to my kids.

Peace4us

[another_guyD]

Children grow up far too fast these days. Relish those younger years.   I have made many mistakes in my years of parenting I am sure, but the one thing I am so proud of is that they know, no matter what mom loves them, respects them and that they ARE good enough. I never had that and darn it I was giving that to my kids.

Peace4us

This is my thinking as well Peace. Thank you for the comment. It is always good to have backup!

~AguyD