BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

[doubtful]

I was thinking about projection, and how most of the things we got blame for were actually theirs and on one of our last conversations (a very angry and crazy one on her part, although she was doing the dumping + had supposedly moved on...) she said "I just ask you to not bad mouth me to..." a certain friend. I had no intention of
doing so. Does this mean this is what she's doing?

[Strong Again]

It's true they certainly do project, but they also have a paranoid skewed perception of events when they split black. You can say something (or not), and they will interpret it in a totally malign way and hit you with it when you're least expecting it, hence in the case of what your ex said to you.  

Edit to add: she probably was projecting also. This was very common with my ex.

[doubtful]

wow, that is completely true. I don't know about this particular incident, but she totally threw things at me when I
least expected that were completely distorted\mean and the opposite of what I was led to believe she thought about me. This was somewhat different though, because she seemed afraid of something I would never do... so I thought maybe it was something she would.

Thanks.

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[Strong Again]

Your welcome doubtful. Have you read this article called 'Anatomy of a Borderline by Schreiber towards the end of the article there is a whole plethora of typical BPD behaviours. You might want to check it out and see if any of the listed behaviours were conveyed by your ex.

P.S. there are other great BPD articles on that site too... huge help.

[doubtful]

wow, as depressing as it is helpful 

Thanks!

[Skip]

I was thinking about projection, and how most of the things we got blame for were actually theirs and on one of our last conversations (a very angry and crazy one on her part, although she was doing the dumping + had supposedly moved on...) she said "I just ask you to not bad mouth me to..." a certain friend. I had no intention of
doing so. Does this mean this is what she's doing?

I don't think you can predict her action based on this statement - BPD behavior is not a constant.

Your welcome doubtful. Have you read this article called 'Anatomy of a Borderline': http:///anatomy.html towards the end of the article there is a whole plethora of typical BPD behaviors. You might want to check it out and see if any of the listed behaviors were conveyed by your ex.

I would be careful with the article cited above - it contains a laundry list of behavior that could be attributed to any one of many "issues".    These attribute really could describe alcoholic, a person with Bipolar disease, depression, narcissism, a drug addict, a sociopath, anxiety or something else.   I dare say a far more significant portion of the population has exhibited groups of these traits than the 6% that can be attributed to BPD.

Here is another list:  http://www.boomeranglove.com/asp/redflags-20.asp

Here are even more: http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68885.0

Lists like these are sensational, but they put us no closer to understanding the other person or understanding ourselves.

We worked hard to keep this page "on track" and reliable:  http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a102.htm     I'd start with it first.

To get your hands around this disorder, you will do better to focus on the core issues and those are fears that the person has.  Two thinks at the base of this disorder are

1) Rejection sensitivity - fear of not being accepted or of situations that have that vulnerability.

2) Poor executive control - that is overreacting to every emotional stimuli and not being able to buffer it - even to the point of being self destructive.

So this is a hypersensitive person, living in the day, so fearful of feeling rejection that she will take extraordinary but self defeating means to "protect herself".  

Cheating is a good example. In "BPD Thinking" If she loves you and dedicates herself to you she is very vulnerable - to avoid that vulnerability she has inappropriate relationships with others as a safety net.  Now its self defeating, but you can also see the rationale to it (which is why a person with BPD does not think they have issues).

So in the case of this saying things to this third party you mention, she may react - she may become so fearful that you will cause her to be rejected or feel so vulnerable that she will try to offset that.

Now you might say - "if i promise not to do that then she should be ok"... and that may work or it may only work in the moment - "she still could have a moment of feeling vulnerable, think your lying, and act out on it".

So, a person with BPD is very unpredictable.

What is the best defense?  Probably if this person made a comment to her like "doubtful" always speaks so highly of you.

What is the worst move?  To bargain - to say if you do this than I won't do that.  She could  take that as a threat and that you are capable of doing it - and that could trigger her to act out at some point.

Complicated.  

[MindfulJavaJoe]

My understanding is that the projection come from the BPD not being able to live with their deep inner most hated feelings so the do two things

1. they deny that they own the feeling
2. they play "tag your it".

...you now are what they despise about themselves and God help yopu because their rage is comming!

It is a coping strategy.

I don't yet know how to effectively make a BPD take back their projections and own their feelings.

Perhaps it is not possible.

Any thoughts?

[Randi Kreger]

My whole point being, don't we all project? Is it the degree to which borderlines project that causes the problem? The malignancy of it?

Yes, we ALL use projection. We all also, to some extent, fear abandonment, get angry, and show all the other BPD characteristics.

The difference between normative behavior and BPD/PD behavior is:
* The intensity of the defense mechanisms and the degree to which they are being used. BPs use them more intensely and more often.
* The degree to which they harm relationships and everyday life. Some people can't get along with other people to the degree that they can't hold a job or have a long-term relationship.

[trustingme]

Of all the symptoms of my exBPDbf, this has been the hardest to deal with. He projected consistently over the five years, including all the tactics typically used by BPDs - he told me I was passive aggressive when I was only keeping silent so as not to aggravate his outbursts; he said I was escalating the fight when he was the one doing it; he said I had mood swings when I came home from a stressful day at work and was just a little pensive and tired; and get this, he suggested I needed the outer trimmings such as associating with friends who were arty and literary (I'm a published writer), liking arthouse movies and alternative music, appreciating the arts and culture, etc, to mask my insecurity when he was the one who always felt insecure that he couldn't share in that aspect of my life. 

Richard Skerritt who wrote Tears and Healing said that the process of healing from an abusive relationship involves reprogramming our minds, flushing out those lies that have been told to us that we have believed and that have defined us. It all makes sense now - the extent to which he had brainwashed me!

[ennie]

I had a really interesting conversation with my BPD ex-wife in law (my husband's ex).  I had just meditated, and was in a really not able to easily be triggered state of mind.  She had accidentally called me, I had picked up to call someone else, so neither of us expected to be talking. 

It started off very pleasant...but she kept obsessively bringing up difficult topics and then however I would respond, she would get triggered and immediately either project on me or say attacking things, also projections.  She would either accuse me of hating her, when she was in fact feeling uncomfortable about her own ideas and becoming upset at herself, and was not liking me for triggering that in her, or she would shift the topic suddenly to how all my friends hate me, and the like (fears she has about herself, to which she often refers, but which are not so for me and do not trigger me at all).  I could see her wanting to be loving with me, wanting to see herself as loving, then see her feeling uncomfortable, and once she was in that uncomfortable spot, this radical projection started up. 

I felt aware of her being in this world where everything was so scary and dangerous, where any concern that would crop up would trigger this terror of being bad, evil, yucky, wrong, and that her only way to deal with that was to just try to make me that, too, either as the person accusing her of this badness, or as someone so bad that it made her okay by comparison.  Rarely have I been able to stick with her in that state.  But I was able to just keep coming back to wanting to be loving with her.  But I stayed in that loving place, sometimes pointing out that I was not angry and not yelling, but it seemed to me that when she became upset and fearful, that was when it seemed to her that I was being those things.  She would notice for a bit that indeed, I was not yelling, which would trigger again her projection and she would be off onto another tangent about how I am ruining her life or always mean or that nobody likes me and I am a failure. 

I would also occasionally say to her, "I want you to know that I live around people who tell me how they really feel, and I know how I am difficult, and also that I am really well loved, so that is not an area of insecurity for me or a place of power for you."  And she would switch strategy immediately. 

Wow. 

I felt like it was the first time I could see that she really could not stop herself.  I was doing a lot of the "right" things, validating and so forth, and also my own version of this stuff that seems to work with my particular friend, which is just expressing a lot of love and gratitude, and she really took it in--she heard me loving her and was really touched by it, but that would send a new cascade of triggers which would result in a new cascade of projections.  I spent about 30 minutes asking variations on the theme, "Hey, I am wanting to end this conversation and I can see that right now, in a way that feels good to you and leaves us in a good place.  Can you help me with that?"  She would try hard, but each path would lead her to repeating the negative projections.  It was like she was in a maze and she would think she found a way out, only to be at the same place.  She finally made a few threats to me, and then said a nice goodbye.  We hung up. 

On the one hand, it really made me aware that regardless of how I deal with her, how open I am and how well I communicate, she really cannot pull off not going to that dark place.  I could see the projections, but because of my role in her life, I am just plain too scary for her to care about, because to her it means she is a failure.  I am okay with that.  I also felt sort of depressed that I am probably going to be in this odd relationship with her for many years, so I just need to continue figuring out ways to allow all the drama to just pass by.  When she is saying, "everyone hates you," I can hear it as "I am afraid that I am unlovable, and I am hoping you can help me, here."   I am not trying to work out a relationship with her, not trying to be a therapist to her, not her partner...just someone she is stuck with because of my relationship to the father of her kids.  But nonetheless, I could see that me loving her was about the only communication that made its way through the wall of defenses, so I plan to stick with that one a bit. 

[Mrs Borderline]

What is the "proper" response to projection?  I am trying to learn to break the cycle of conflict and use "S.E.T." response.  My initial response though is a knee jerk reaction and strike back: "How dare you, who do you think you are"!  Obviously, it takes a while for my mind to realize that the BPD is Projecting.

Needless to say, the Projection is usually very hurtful and I want an apology, which never comes.  I Forgive and move on, which seems like a license to continue the behavior?  Trying to set Boundaries is more difficult when Projection is usually a result of not letting the BPD have their way. 

[Auspicious]

What is the "proper" response to projection?  I am trying to learn to break the cycle of conflict and use "S.E.T." response.  My initial response though is a knee jerk reaction and strike back: "How dare you, who do you think you are"!  Obviously, it takes a while for my mind to realize that the BPD is Projecting.

Needless to say, the Projection is usually very hurtful and I want an apology, which never comes.  I Forgive and move on, which seems like a license to continue the behavior?  Trying to set Boundaries is more difficult when Projection is usually a result of not letting the BPD have their way. 

I don't know that there is one "proper" response.

You've seen what doesn't seem to help you out any.


Sometimes you can do something like this:

A: "You are such a glutton!" (as A crams down donuts ... in other words, projection)

B: "I don't like being talked to that way. I'll be back in awhile" (B leaves - doesn't argue, doesn't take any bait to stay, leaves the room)



later


A: "OK, I'm sorry. Let's move on."

B: "I do forgive you. And it's still going to take a while for me to feel better about this."

[guiltyandsad]

yes this thread reminds me of more projections including the housework one.

my exbpdgf also had a major anxiety problem that the T we saw mentioned.  so she would stress about having chores and cleaning up to do.  so i would help out and do the dishes, laundry etc.  but she would get annoyed with me and say i don't help when she felt things needed to be done.  i would point out that i do help and she would always say well you don't do it often when in reality i did.

noahetal - great way of explaining what goes on with the questions.  i knew something weird was going on when i would ask a question like that, but after 3 years i still couldn't figure out exactly the dynamic.  now i see it.  damn it it's frustrating because we are NC now, not that it would have made a difference.  i did not have the discipline to not react often enough given my core childhood abuse issues that arose over time.

[LittleMilly]

My ex BPD seemed to offer some crystal clear projection;

"You are worthless, you don't have a job, you are failing at college and you STILL live at home"
I looked at him and calmly said "I do have a job, I do well at college and I moved out of my parents 8 years ago... you do not have a job, you are failing college and you still live at home, that's all you, not me"

His response?

"Well you're still a **** liar" 

I think that was a major  for me, a huge wake up call that he had been projecting all along. Of course at this point I had no idea about BPD, I was under the impression it was all my fault.

[Pou]

Hi Skip.. yeah, I had a heck of a time dealing with projection .. my wife is undiagnosed NPD which is closely related to BPD.  Do most people agree that projection in the real world = lying?  My wife does it like a street bully that she often bullys me into believing in her "projections" and I got to say that it is very frightening and frustrating at the same time.  It is embarassing too, since I am much bigger and stronger than her and when I see a thin and frail woman would turn into a street bully ... how is that possible?  And I simply get stuck and do not know what to do.  I try my best to dispute her accussations and lies, but she just bully over my words.  I never saw this side of her for the first few years that we dated and it is almost seeing a demon possession taking place.  Does this sound familiar to anyone here?  or is my situation unique?  Sometimes I wonder if she has a case of possession instead of NPD... anyone else feel the same way?  uggg.

[ennie]

I wanted to respond to the question about what is the "proper" response to projection. 

I think it depends on what you want to achieve.  For someone who lives with someone with BPD, reducing conflict is of great importance, particularly if the person is violent.  But there are other situations in which there are more important goals, at least during certain periods.  Even when living with someone, I imagine that one's own ability to experience and express one's own identity is important to staying aware of who you are.  So reducing conflict is not the only goal.  Also, I think that in my "blended" family, my DH and I made choices early on to not conflict with his BPD ex, particularly in front of the kids, in a way that allowed her story to grow, develop, and be believed. 

In retrospect, I think the times that I was able to be kind and loving and to speak my own truth and ask that of her resulted in less long term negative story.  For example, when she was trying to deny that she had been physically abusive with my husband during their marriage, I asked with a warm tone and no animosity, "I understand that you hit him at times.  Is that true?"  I had to ask 6 times in a row, she would project, deny, but finally told me that she had done that. 

Likewise, there was a period during which the kids were ill or kept home when not ill for about 30 days a year.  This is a LOT.  They missed about 2 days a year each when in our care.  But for that year, every time that we saw her when with the kids, she would talk about how the kids are always sick at our house, and what is wrong with us or our house to make that happen?  I think the best response for the kids would have been to say something like, "I really hear that you are concerned abut your kids' health, because you love them.  But school records indicate the kids have been ill 30 days when at your home, and only 2 when at our home, so it is unlikely that our home is the problem." 

She might have become angry (though sometimes a clear statement of fact can cause her to pause and reconsider strategy).  Instead, we were silent, smiling and "being nice."  The result was that over 3 years, the kids came to believe that they were sick at our home often, to tell others that, to tell custody evaluators and roommates that, and when we finally were dealing with custody litigation, this was a much more powerful allegation.  She even got doctors to write notes saying the kids were sick due to parental negligence, and naming the kids' dad JUST BASED ON mom and the kids' word, without ever speaking with dad or even knowing who was in charge of caring for the children when the alleged negligence occurred. 

So there is a place for modeling how to politely say that the information indicates the opposite is true, but that does not mean the concern is not real.  To validate FACTS (rather than the person's feeling) in front of third parties tends to make the third party believe the BPD person.  With court officials, it is important to make sure they are aware of the facts.  With kids, there is a balance between not creating conflict, between being kind to their mom and not making her out to be a fool, but also validating a rational interpretation of information.  It is possible to be truthful without being hurtful, and while that distinction may sometimes be lost on the BPD person, it is not lost on the kids, not lost on fact finders and court personnel, not lost on medical professionals who are making health decisions for children based on BPD mom's assertions. 

I also have found that when I catch the distortion in the moment, and mirror for the BPD person in mylife, her impression and story about the conversation LATER is more true to reality.  For example, I had a conversation in which my husband's BPD ex was yelling at me, insulting me in a conversation.  She then said, "You always yell at me when I talk to you," and I just stayed calm and friendly, and asked, "When in this conversation did I yell at you?"  She repeated that I always yell (when in truth I am very able to stay calm when she is upset and have not yelled at her before), and I said, "I would like to know when in this conversation I yelled, or if you experience me as yelling right now, because it is important to me to treat you well and I care about you and I want to know if I have done something that is unkind to you. So when in THIS conversation have I yelled or hurt you?"  She thought about it a minute, and said, "Well, you have not yelled in this conversation. You are not yelling now.  Actually, you are being pretty nice."  She later remembered this as the conversation in which I did NOT yell, because she remembered the feeling of her yelling in other situations with no effort to help her mentalize, or help me mentalize, what was happening.  So her totally enmeshed experience translated into me yelling, EXCEPT WHEN I HELPED HER TO VALIDATE HER ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. 

I think it is sometimes ,perhaps OFTEN, important with a BPD person to be willing to risk conflict for establishing a base reality, which we may see differently, or may even be different for each person, but which is distinct from her narrative that overtakes reality.  So I think what is PROPER depends on your priorities, which can range from helping a third party to accurately understand facts, to creating peace and ease, to helping a BPD person feel loved, to helping a BPD person remember something important, etc.  This is not a monolith, and it is important to be able to distinguish in our own selves, and model for the BPD person, the difference between feelings and facts; that I do not need to be angry or indignant to address information; that I can be just as loving and validating in asking what her true experience is as I can in ignoring all the discrepancies. 

[Easydoesitnow]

Oh oh oh ... *puts hand in air*...I've got one...

UBPDexbf tells me that he spent $3,500 getting a young pole dancer to sleep in his bed for the night.  He also wants to quit his job but is over committed financially.

Tells me 10 minutes later that 'my financial issues cause HIM stress'.

I have twice as much money as him.

[Kentucky1]

How about when they look at you as you are ending the relationship and say the following?

My exbpd stated:

1. I know you are tired of me and have lost feelings ( I quit being intimate and affectionate/ I refused to kiss her)- I know that was painful, but I had to slowly get away.
2. I wore out my welcome by staying to much. ( My issue for letting her stay 3 nights a week with me-I am glad I did not let her move in with me/she moved home with mom- she is 32.)
3. I know you were faithful (She said that to me).

She did text me weeks later. I did not respond. I was done.

[mitchell16]

Is This form of projection? I caught my BPD GF in a lie, that I was shocked she admitted. She had a date with an ex/bf behind my back, prior to the date she started acting strange a couple of week prior. I sensed that something was going on and it involved an ex. just my gut instict. Anway prior to the date I asked her just tell me the truth and we could go our seperate ways and If it didnt workout we could possible get back together. Anyway at the time when she admitted it I told her that she just lied to me to keep my on the hook while she made up her mind. She agreed and then said It was my fault that i made it hard for someone to tell me the truth. and then she proceeded to accuse me of cheating on her the whole time we had been involved. and becuase When we started dating I had broke up from realationship a few months earlier she then said that I always made her feel like a rebound person. This was all in the same conversations after I tricked her into telling me the truth about a the lie she told.

[debs]

I hear all the stories and explanations about Projecting.  I understand and can relate to it all.  I have lived with it for 11 yrs and questioned myself (and my sanity) over and over. 

I know that the things he accuses me of are not true.  Does he really believe they are?  Or does he just want to absolve himself? and doesnt care how much it hurts and frustrates me and damages us?

The problem I face is how to handle it (or them) when it happens?

Do we point out to the BPD that they are projecting?  Do we agree with them? Do we disagree with them?   Do we just keep quite and let them rage and project?  Do we wait until they are calm and try and talk to them about it?

I have tried all  of above and none has worked.  I dont know what to do anymore.  Do i just say nothing and take it?