What is rejection sensitivity (impulsive aggression)?

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GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Randi Kreger]

Dear Randi
I am a serious reader of this subject. Lion is the symbol of greatness and braveness.A lion never never harms it. It goes old and die. A human-lion can harm oneself out of uncontrolled anger or emotions.Humanbeings are self destructive.The subject BPD or NPD is for humanbeing. Do you agree with my observation?

I am afraid I don't understand what you are saying. Can you give it another shot?


rlk

[Randi Kreger]

wow, reading about the "border-lion" i can instantly recall several moments of madness that this term describes very accurately.

and to think it wasn't me after all...

this book is a must-read for me, when is it available in the bookstore?

b2

Nope, it wasn't you!

The publisher says it will be out in 2008. All the copy is due April 15. Then they edit like mad and I make revisions like mad. I have NO idea how they will get it out that fast, but I will keep you apprised.


rlk

[Randi Kreger]

I have to say that I never found it useful to separate the disorder from the person (my mother).  It was usually thinking like this that enmeshed me further into the abuse. If she were living, I would hesitate to use such a technique as I envision it right now.

At this point, I haven't offered any techniques. That would be in the second half.

It is a bit slippery to understand that BPD has a biological basis, but still hold a person (the BP) responsible for trying to control behavior that hurts others. Think of it like diabetes. No one asks to be diabetic. But if you have it, you have to take care of yourself by eating the proper way and taking meds as needed. If you don't, the diabetes will take over.

It's a bit like that.

rlk

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[Randi Kreger]

Randi,
Thanks for confirming my sanity when I wasn't able to, and the inside peek at the next book.
sdddaa
-----------
I kept the disorder separate from my exwife, in my mind, and attempted to address it in that way for almost 20 years. The rages stopped only when she felt she had hurt me sufficiently. It bothered her immensely that I could potentially see positive things within her that she herself could not recognize. This led to enormous resentment on her part, with behaviors escalating, and intentional attacks to hurt me as much as possible. This approach did not seem to help me/us as it seemed to only enrage her more if she didn't get a her desired reaction or see what I could.

Often times she would exclaim "See, I knew it... would happen sometime... you felt this way... you were going to say that" and usually it was her interpreting what I said to fit the paranoia of her fears becoming reality, the justification of them.

For 20 years she dreamed every night that I had left her, was going to leave her, or she somehow could not find me when she needed me, yet I had been the only person in her life who accepted her for who she was, issues and all. Ultimately the fear of losing me grew and grew to reflect this. She pushed and pushed and pushed me until the reality of her fears happened; she made it impossible to be with her because no matter how much she was aware of it, even with counseling and DBT, she could not prevent herself from hurting me. Is this the internal tug of war you talked about?
One thing about the impulsiveness I have trouble with is that often it seems like an excuse for her actions to avoid the responsibility which comes with them. Having an affair with her best friend was chalked up to impulsive behavior. Yet she began to set it into motion for the entire preceding year. There are many other examples from our relationship. In my experience it seemed to be related more to her being exempt from the rules and standards she expected everyone else to abide by. (Or does this stem from Ntendencies, or NPD coinciding?)

After 20 years I no longer separate the disorder from the person; this is a ruling part of her person and always will be. Granted, she did not ask for it but she has made very conscious decisions to not deal with it as well. After so much abuse, pain, to myself and daughters, I do see her as being defined by her disorder, as does she, since it affects every aspect of her life. Perhaps this view is more beneficial to the disordered person dealing with their own actions.

An aspect possibly related to their fears, is the often denied matter of choice they do have. It has come up repeatedly that there is no matter of choice for them, but this seems contradictory. Every ounce of energy is put into the false front, keeping others from knowing "who they really are" because if they knew what they were really like, they would not like them. So in this way it does seem that there is a knowledge of right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable behaviors, and the choice to ignore this knowledge when dealing with those closest to them (because it scares them to feel close).

Or is this knowledge of choice the basis for the idea that they can be treated/self managed for improvement?

Thanks again, sdddaa.

First, we have to remember every BP is an individual, just like every non. BPD is not their entire personality, nor is it the definition of the self.

I don't think there is a big need to try to nitpit to figure out what is the Border-Lion and what is the BP. These facts remain.

1. Mental illnesses, just like physical illnesses, have a biological component. Many physical and mental illnesses have an environmental component, too. The only difference is that right now we know much more about how and why physical illnesses come about. The brain is just beginning to give up its secrets.

2. Peoplke who are affected can't do much about their biology. But they can do what we all must do, and that is manage their disorder--both for themselves and their relationships. More and more, we see that alcoholism and addiction also have a biological component, too.

If I had to um up in a sentence how a family manages BPD, it would be this: the person with BPD needs to take responsibility for themselves. And the adult family members must do the same. That's the heart of it.


rlk

[Abigail]

First, we have to remember every BP is an individual, just like every non. BPD is not their entire personality, nor is it the definition of the self.

I don't think there is a big need to try to nitpit to figure out what is the Border-Lion and what is the BP. These facts remain.

1. Mental illnesses, just like physical illnesses, have a biological component. Many physical and mental illnesses have an environmental component, too. The only difference is that right now we know much more about how and why physical illnesses come about. The brain is just beginning to give up its secrets.

2. Peoplke who are affected can't do much about their biology. But they can do what we all must do, and that is manage their disorder--both for themselves and their relationships. More and more, we see that alcoholism and addiction also have a biological component, too.

If I had to um up in a sentence how a family manages BPD, it would be this: the person with BPD needs to take responsibility for themselves. And the adult family members must do the same. That's the heart of it.


rlk

Randi,
   I agree with what you say about BPD having genetic components yet those with BPD are still responsible to manage their illness the best they can and take responsibility for themselves.    And I have also likened BPD to diabetes in the same way you have and also to the development of the disorder.

  My husband usually does a good job of managing his BPD but there is still room for improvement.  He hates to read and therefore he hasn't learned as much about the disorder and how it affects him and others as much as he could.  He could use some therapy to help him deal with the past and to learn to better recognize when he is overly stressed, getting angry and needs to take his "as needed" meds.  On the positive side, he has accepted responsibility and takes his medications as prescribed.  He also avoids alcohol and has regular check-ups with Dr. Heller. 

  He had been without a job for a couple of months and feeling stressed and angry.  He couldn't see he was angry and wouldn't go see the doctor because we didn't have the "extra" money even though I insisted this was a priority.  When we finally went to see Dr. Heller he had a good talk with my husband and we got an intense, productive therapy session in addition to the medical aspect of the visit, that would have taken weeks, if not months, with most other therapists.  It included information on BPD, recognition of anger and its effects on your spouse, family and others, and marital counseling which came with specific instructions for both of us.  One of the instructions for my husband was to take his Haldol ten minutes before he had an important or emotional talk with me.  Not part of the usual instructions in marital counseling, but I loved it!

  Abigail

[fantasyman]

"The rages stopped only when she felt she had hurt me sufficiently. It bothered her immensely that I could potentially see positive things within her that she herself could not recognize. This led to enormous resentment on her part, with behaviors escalating, and intentional attacks to hurt me as much as possible. This approach did not seem to help me/us as it seemed to only enrage her more if she didn't get a her desired reaction or see what I could."

Randi,

Looking forward to the new book.  Walking on Eggshells was definitely helpful in helping me to recognize that we dealing with an illness.  The "Border Lion" analogy seems to point to a primitive under-development mentioned by others.  The quote above is what I've been experienceing for years.  For the longest time, I sought to defend myself responding in kind.  This only made matters worse b/c she never experienced that "sufficient" hurt.  If I inject an opinion that differs from hers (even if I'm praising her at a time when she's self-criticizing), the "lion" is unleashed.  Ironically, as ferocious as she can be in trying to administer adequate pain,  I am the one who is often accused of "low blows" or "going for the kill" with remarks/responses that far less malicious than we both know (in reality) are a capability for me. 

I now understand this concept of projection for what it is, and I'm reinventing my responses to her rages.  My "eye-for-an-eye" approach only intensified and prolonged the rage sessions.  She couldn't hurt me enough to disable me, and this seemed to only make her "more ill" - driving her deeper into depression and a thirst to abuse.  I've only been able to begin this journey be separating the illness from the person.  Without that separation, my own primal instincts lead to that "normal" belief that we are all responsible for our own actions.  I've learned this belief to wasted on those w BPD - b/c it is indeed "fact", and these people are driven moreso by emotion.

"I agree with this sentiment and this is the core but who is looking after the children?  This is the one aspect of this disorder that frustrates me the most in our posters here.  I often see the disorder as being one that shifts all focus to the one suffering from bp.  The focus gets shifted to them and the kids suffer.  this places an inordinant amount of responsibility upon the non, to take the shift back to themselves and the kids.  It is very difficult."

I fully understand those who see the "border lion" concept as just another excuse.  My GF craves being the center of attention (as does her S15).  This craving often compromises my relationship with our other kids.  If I set boundaries to protect the kids and my relationship with them, I'm labeled a thoughtless, self-centered monster.  This alienation occurs b/c a "boundary" is also a "border", recognition of which we know to be the very basis and challenge of this disorder.

Thanks for "...Eggshells" and the pending new book, and thanks for taking the time to address our questions/comments.

[trying2bekind]

Randi,

I find this very interesting.  I came to this site not too long ago.  I in my posts I think I've made it clear that although I have read quite a bit on BPD over the years...I am never totally satisfied with my understanding.  I am most curious about the person inside of this.  In one of my posts I ask if anyone sees them as a wounded soul, as if they are speaking another language that we CAN understand...so that we can care about them...knowing better who they are...and still care for ourselves.  I used the example of my father when he went into a nursing home...he was different...yet with his language changing...I understood him...he was himself and not.  There were always ways i could distract him from frustration...I felt at times I knew he was afraid of something and yes, anger was a big part, but I could intercept and he'd be fine and later in some way he'd acknowledge it.  I cant help but feel since these individuals with BPD are not totally disconnected with reality...that they have hearts that are aching and perhaps will always ache, but still...in those moments we can interact there has to be a chance for  them to be understood and comforted (and I don't mean this in a sick co dependant way).  Treating them in the moment and not taking it personally.

Some of the replies to my posts have clearly been the hurts of others speaking out...so many people have been hurt...but rising above our/thier pain...how to we "love" the wounded bp?

I think this new book and the separation sounds most interesting.  I like some of your examples...for me it's important to have points fleshed out so that I can grasp the point.  I appreciate what I've read so far.  Thank you.

[sonya]

is thisa bp ways of saying you will take any thing from me abuse and so on then i will know that you love me yes i  am reading the book this week. funny thing my mother of 60 yrs read this book and refers to my father do i have daddy issues my h is alot like my father

[mzb]

"border lion" is a great way to say that the person isn't the disease but...it still hurts to be attacked.

[LadyC]

The "border lion" analogy is interesting. I always told my partner, after she had one of those spells, that she was like a mother bear protecting her cub. Only problem is that the "cub" (her broken and threatened sense of self) was never under any *real* danger from the me/the outside! 

[neszagirl89]

I am kind of the opposite. If i perceive that I am being rejected or feeling unloved by a person, especially a person i sincerely care about, i normally blame it on myself. I withdraw from that person and don't tell them why, which i know hurts them, but i never lash out. I lash IN. I hurt myself, and blame myself. it is normally something along the lines of "why am i like this? i will just stay away from everyone, because they wont understand and i will just get more hurt. besides, it will be easier for them, because they wont have to deal with me." is there any part of your book that talks about this? about those that withdraw instead of lashing out?

[itscomplicated]

Hi Neszagirl89:

i was just with involved with someone who reacted like you describe.   We only had one incident where we fought.   Every other incident that we had involved him  imploding into himself, shutting down  and removing himself.   I used to say 'how come you put me on time out, why do you punish me like that'?   He said, 'its not to punish you, its to protect you'.   

He's not talking to me right now b/c he has told me 'i'm not as advertised'. Kinda like what you said in the earlier post about not telling people exactly what you are like prior for fear of rejection.    He told me 'he could be difficult' , moody like you said.

I have seen him when he goes through these periods of extreme self loathing  and  withdraws but before they only lasted for a couple of days.  This one has lasted a couple of weeks.     I once asked him how it improves his life to not have me in it and his response was: It doesn't improve my life, it's to improve your life.  You deserve a better guy.  Exactly just what you said.

So is there anything that a loved one or family member would be able to say to you that would let you know that aren't being rejected or unloved?  Or that they do want to be with you?   

Thanks for your candor here.  Please know that is very painful for those that love the BPD and want to be with them to be shut out when we don't understand what we have done or what has happened.